Macworld: Activist plan 'dramatic' greening of Apple Store SF at 6:00pm - Page 2

just like those crazy techno-muslimo-terrorists?

Just because the media constantly reitterates the 'fact' that 'they' want to destroy 'our' way of life doesn't mean it's true.

And i'd rather live in a cave and know i've done all i can to ensure the survival of this planet, teh human race and every other species on this planet, because that is what is potentially at risk.

As taken from greenmyapple.com

"We love Apple. Apple knows more about "clean" design than anybody, right? So why do Macs, iPods, iBooks and the rest of their product range contain hazardous substances that other companies have agreed to abandon? A cutting edge company shouldn't be cutting lives short by exposing children in China and India to dangerous chemicals. That's why we Apple fans need to demand a new, cool product: a greener Apple."

I once sent a donation to Greenpeace --- and they sent me back a thank you along with a busload of printed junk (along with stickers, etc.) that I didn't want or need. Talk about environmental impact! I guess it makes a difference if you're the one in the catbird seat.

Single stupidest comment in AppleInsider Forum history.

This is about public education with some grandstanding as spice. So what. Every non-profit and private corporation does the same thing if it needs to. Greenpeace isn't hurting you or affecting Mac sales and you are up in arms about what might happen. Get over your self-aggrandizing, faux iconoclastic annoyance and say something useful ... no, DO something useful.

Maybe wait for the politically correct pendulum to swing back so you can feel cool railing against someone else trying to make the planet better. Your annoyance is less important than the centuries of ecological capital disregarded and destroyed by ignorant and felonious business practices. Your anger is a waste of whining emotion best saved for something more serious, like when BurgerKing ran out of the Mulan action figure you wanted. And Apple's short term business practices are less important as well.

Whether you think Greenpeace is a bunch of lunatics is irrelevant. Some of them are most of them are not. However they are protesting real problems while you are protesting image!

As a very loyal customer and stockholder, I expect groups like Greenpeace to research and publicize any problems with the company I keep and I can treat the information and "grandstanding" with a mature respect for its role.

Complainers like several of you should stick to issues you understand or have had the time to research first - like your favorite color iPhone.

Oh, please do, and please post a few photos of your new "digs!"

But focusing on one company doesn't really help the issue. It's like saying if we all focus our efforts on making Ford more fuel-efficient, GM will also become fuel-efficient. But that's not how it always works in the real world.

What about all those other companies that make plastic products? Apple doesn't make nearly the amount of plastic casings a Dell or HP

wow, this thread is moving fast!

every time i check, there are so many more posts!

i guess that's good, lots of controversy

Well, Lou, look at it like this.

I don't believe in prejudice. I want to make a statement supporting equality for everyone. I don't know what your beliefs are, but I'm going to organize a demonstration outside your place of business and your home demanding that you quit being a bigot. There'll be blackface, ragheads, beaners and TV cameras.

Hope you don't mind. You're probably a good guy, but this will make great TV.

My Problem with Greenpeace is that they contradict their own arguments, by saying one thing but prove another.

Try reading this.

Sebastian

Greenpeace is an evil organization, primarily concerned with meeting its own multi-billion dollar budget. The best way to keep donations coming in is to do stuff like this - because actually helping the environment is way lower priority that getting donations.

ya know if it shuts greenpeace up then i dont see why not. there not going to stop. could be worse though. they could be eco-terrorists. Bombing apple until they make their products greener.

heres a fun game everyone. find the most toxic Apple product ever to be released. Dont ask me for the answer though cause i dont know it!

That's pretty close. Work this in there somewhere:

You forgot to mention that you'd asked a Private Investigator to study Lou and his friends. The PI reported back to you that Lou's friend, Mort, had been telling racist jokes at work and while out playing poker with the rest of the guys, including Lou. While Lou had laughed at the jokes - hard to avoid, considering the crowd - he, in fact, had recently received an award from a government anti-racism committee for his work in reducing bigotry in the school that he worked.

So, despite clear evidence that Mort is an bigot, you order the cameras to show up at Lou's house. Mort isn't as popular as Lou - he's not photogenic, dresses badly, and isn't exactly eloquent. Besides, each time you get one of your placards on TV, you garner a few thousand dollars more in donations. Truth be damned, it's all about the visuals!

??? What the hell ... okay dude please point out to me with actual sources and facts how Greenpeace has done anything to promote environmental responsibility. Saying, "well, we want Apple to use environmentally friendly manufacturing and packaging processes" is NOT a solution to anything. Spiking trees was not an answer to logging and killing whalers was not an answer to whaling. It's little more than an eco-terrorist group. While I admit shining green flashlights into a glass box to promote environmental awareness isn't damaging or terroristic, what DOES it do exactly? Greenpeace needs to offer up some solution to expect Apple to give them any mind.

Apple is a business. They're out to make money. Same as the fucking oil companies. They are concerned about getting a good product out the door as cheaply as possible with as few prohibitive fees in the way as possible. Do you think Apple is going to like sinking tons of money into more environmental awareness when it already has one of the best eco-friendly track records in the business?


<Tears> Heroes? That might be stretching it a bit ... but I guess they are compared to the folks that discover medicines, decode the human genome and promote freedom of the press and speech through rogue blogs under tyrannical governments - all of whom indeed do fuck all in front of their computers...

Try reading Crichton's "State of Fear" ... while controversial, it's extremely well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical environmental movement...

You really need to stop watching FOX News. Your sense of hyperbole and desire to add to the sudden anti-[insert eco group] feeding frenzy shows me how easy it is for Karl Rove to win elections. sad ...

If I'm wrong, show me one example of Greenpeace wanting to take away your home, clothes or food.

This is the crux of the whole thing. Daniel Eran has pretty much debunked Greenpeace here: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM...57E98CA39.html

One can only conclude that they are keeping the heat up because it's self-serving, not because it's at about finding the truth.

let's all take a carful look @ the 1st pic:

poor little girl holding pink apple keybord to show apple logo, standn infront of a pile of..........
NO! that couldent be!! a pile pf bege pc keybords!!???

It's just a waste of batteries. Yes, that's one way to help the environment!?!

It would be cool if all of the MWSF patrons run down there and beat the hell out of them...I just wanna see those twirps hospitalized...imagine...take a medication that was tested on animals or die...lets see how many of these cowards stick to their guns when rubber "meats" the road...

Hmmmm...objection to animal testing would make a great plot for House now that I think about it...

WAIT...was this the SF store? or the NY sstore? the original post said SF but all of the cube referancesmake me think NY...am I confused here?

Then you'll have PETA on your ass!

Seriously, I do my part for the environment (and I'm against animal cruelty) but groups like this make environmentalism a dirty word. They're not helping. They're just making it difficult for those of us normal people who do what we can. I like the picture of the girl with the lone strawberry iMac keyboard amongst a sea of millions of PC computer parts. I guess it's okay unless you're Apple, huh?

No, dude, it is up to you to point out actual sources and facts for how Greenpeace has somehow hurt you. But if you can't Google anything, you might want to ask people about whaling protests in which they put THEIR OWN LIVES - not the lives of whalers - on the line.


Well it is a start. And it is not up to Greenpeace to research every manufacturing process know to humanity and do the work that companies should be doing anyway. Their role is to highlight the problems and where they can, give solutions. You might want to actually go to their website before wasting discussion space on your repressed, self-important rant.



Where is YOUR proof, nimrod? I'm from Oregon and Greenpeace doesn't spike logs. Other fringe groups used to. Read some George Orwell or Thoreau if you don't understand the reasonings and exigencies of the powerless in the face of the powerful. Nonviolent, civil disobedience at times is not only ethical, it is necessary. (see Gandhi)

As for killing whalers .... ... read up on the Rainbow Warrior.



Usually it gets people to talk about it in a public way ... except for people like you who can't stand being reminded of bad things in the world, or who feel they are personally being blamed for problems, or who feel eco-groups are just being arrogant ... while you, yourself express the exact same arrogance. Maybe if you spent 2% of the time you spend ragging on GP, ragging on GE ruining the Hudson River instead, then maybe YOU might be doing something useful.


And how do you know they haven't?!?!? Because you read AI forums or listen to talk radio? Again a few minutes of research would answer most of your questions if you truly were interested in answers rather than venting your stupidity.


Being a business is not a virtue. It is only an economic construct. Making money is what they need to do to survive, but they have responsibilities too. And I doubt Apple is even being asked to sink tons of money into anything.


I also hear he wrote a book that has exposed an underlying plot by geneticists to create a park of dinosaurs that will eventually over-run small Central American countries and kill a lawyer or two. It is very well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical paleontological movement.

The problem with people now is that they are so afraid of terrorists and so angry with "liberals" that they don't have an idea about what a truly radical movement is.

So Greenpeace is out spiking trees and killing whalers, huh? I think you need to get your facts straight. You are probably confusing them with Earth First or another true "eco-terrorist" organization. The truth is that Greenpeace members have been killed in protests.

From their website..."Greenpeace is an independent, campaigning organisation which uses non-violent, creative confrontation to expose global environmental problems, and to force solutions for a green and peaceful future."

Non-violent confrontation is the kind of peaceful resolution that people like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi believed in. Gandhi appeared in Apple's Think Different campaign posters. You can relate to that, right? The Apple Fanboy stuff only goes so far people.

My major gripe with environmental organizations is that they end up using a huge amount of funds for lobbyists in Washington. That's right, lawyers get most of the money.


James

What if they decided to target you or your company? How would you feel then? It's not cool.

They are erratic extremists that need to be stopped.

I think Greenpeace IS over-reacting to Apple and grandstanding, but I don't think I am also taking the word of an Apple fan web article on it either.

It is just sad to see how vitriolic the anti-Greenpeace attitude is in here and in America in general. Kind of like how trendy it was to be anti-French or anti-UN before the Iraq war. And now that we know the UN was correct on WMD's, and we know the administration wasn't exactly truthful either, we forget how easily we were persuaded to call people with honest doubts as unpatriotic.

The problem is in the mistaken sense of proportionality. GE dumps decades of toxins from electronics plants into the Hudson and kills who knows how much of the river's life and no one here says a word, but if a darn liberal shines a green light at an Apple Store, then they are the biggest frauds ever to walk the planet.

Please everyone put down your HotPockets and Mento with Diet Cokes and think about a sense of proportion.

Around the time they started making pink computers.
How quickly we forget.

It is their methods people dislike, not necessarily their causes. They act like loonies. They shoot themselves in the foot because it makes enemies of the people they are trying to persuade. That's just plain dumb on the face of it. They set impossibly high expectations and complain that what they want done doesn't get done fast enough.

My immediate reaction to them is to be against everything they're for against what would sometimes be my better judgment. That's just stupid on their part. Why don't they find someone in the industry who is actually committing crimes and go after them?

A few friendly warnings for GreenPeace:

-Please make sure the equipment in which you design your website and host it are environmentally friendly.

-Please conserve energy and don't take your floodlights with you next time.

-Concerning your flyers. Please make sure you don't actually use paper, to use more paper (wether recycled or not) ultimately results in more trees being cut down, and more energy being lost to create the recycled fibers in the paper.

-Oh, and please make sure there are extra recyclable waste baskets around the Mac Expo, so the flyers can be thrown away correctly, and so they aren't thrown to the streets.

-Actually just make the paper bio-degradable, and could you put nutrients in it for the earth? Thanks.

-Also, make sure that the clothes you wear to the Mac Expo were not created in China in any harsh conditions. That little girl holding the keyboard, may have just made your jeans. You would be supporting that kind of behavior then.

-Please remember not to stop at any fast food chains on your way to the expo, all that grease can't be good for mother nature.

Ok, so obviously you can take anything too far. I understand that we need better practices in America, but ultimately it is easy to pick on any one for being environmentally irresponsible. I am sure any research firm could come up with thousands of violations Green Peace commits each year. Maybe GP could go clean a city block instead of picketing a friendly meeting of people who are excited about technology. After all, their cause would be better achieved this way.

im still curious what the most ecologically damaging mac is/was.

Your analogy is wrong - if it were right Greenpeace would be GWB, Apple would be Iraq, and the real polluters (the North Korea equivelant in the business world) get off without a mention because there is a hidden agenda.

Greenpeace is evil, through and through - and the publicity campaigns that they run are not even the biggest reason - the big reason is that they are anti-nuclear power.

http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns/nuclear

Anti-nuclear protesters are de-facto murderers, because coal based power plants are built instead, and those power plants kill more people than nuclear reactors ever could.

If they targetted my company, I'd see their evidence and if it was plausible, work to change business practices for the better. I would act like an adult and not lose my temper or my sense of respect and responsibility. I certainly wouldn't go on AppleInsider about them or hope that some of the fanboys here turned off Bill O'Reilley long enough to waste bandwidth over it.

They are not erratic, they don't need to be stopped, and they have negotiated for years with some corporations with sensible results that don't make the news or Apple discussion groups. They pick a high profile example once every 5 years and I think as long as they don't permenantly ruin a Genius Bar, Jobs will be no worse for wear.

And cars kill more people than coal plants.

The fact that you say anyone who is anti-nuke is evil, shows you are an ideologue, not a rational person. I think that nuclear tech is good enough to stop meltdowns and France has a great history of safe use, BUT you still have to put the waste somewhere and France is running out of Polynesian Islands to do it. ALSO it takes many years of "clean" operation for a nuclear plant to even make up for the oil, coal and electrical energy it takes to actually BUILD a nuclear power plant, that like corn-based ethanol, the laws of physics tend to make it less than efficient. I do agree we need to use nuclear power though for other reasons, not the least of which is climatic.

\tI most indefinitely agree with you and i think that is a very good "Quote". They need to not play favorites and focus on all companies to be fare. This is probably being financially backed by "Microsoft"... Yeah yeah just joking.

-Have a good night-

As an industrial designer I have a lot of respect for a company that apparently does solid ID research, designs products with tight tolerances, and properly networks its industrial designers, engineers and manufacturers in a way that doesn't ship the same (figurative) garbage the rest of the industry is shipping.

That said, since Apple is staffed with talented industrials designers, you can be absolutely sure they have heard the term "cradle to cradle design," and understand the life cycle of their products and materials. Products like the iPod are designed to last for a few years, possibly make a cameo on craigslist / ebay, spend several years in a desk drawer, and then end up in a landfill after 10-20 years. They don't come with easy access to parts that commonly fail (HDD / battery), they aren't upgradable, they don't come with a mail-back packaging for recycling, etc.

If Apple wanted to design more responsibly, they absolutely could. Their industrial and package design staff must know they're making decisions that favor obsolescence and landfills. However, they're probably doing this because executive management wants to cut manufacturing costs and encourage the install base to replace products, not upgrade products. When you have high ID costs, that sacrifice is understandable. Especially when you're a small fry compared to Sony or Dell.

I can't say GreenPeace doesn't have a point. They're certainly right to assume Apple's designers know better. Yet, I'm not sure this is the most effective way of initiating change. I would argue that it would be in GreenPeace's best interest if started involving itself within the ID community. As opposed to protesting they should start working WITH companies on how to implement responsible design decisions that can encourage profit.

Protesting is a fairly rudimentary tactic. It's hard to encourage a company to make smart decisions when you're rubbing that company's nose in its own shit. Eventually you'll be shut out and written off as a wacko... just as Apple is currently doing.

Greenpeace is the PETA of the environmental world.

You would have to have quite a few meltdowns to make Nuclear power kill as many people as coal. Just in Ontario (pop 12 million) coal based power plants are estimated to kill 700 people per year.

GP needs to attack the worst offenders. Whats the incentive to a company to better their environmental record when the reward is protests?

It just makes them look like kooks.

The number one problem with what Green Peace are doing are their methods of measuring who is good and who is bad. Their whole rating system is based on who promises to do what in a certain time frame. If GP agrees with their plan then they are free from agitation.

Apple does not tell GP what it will do or when. That leaves GP with the assumption Apple will make no positive changes in the time frame GP deems acceptable and declares Apple not eco-freindly.

Green Peace as an organization has no authoritative control, regulatory power, or legislative power to force anyone to do anything. Apple has to abide by the laws that have been passed by various environmental bodies to sell their products around the world. Apple likely has a plan for the future and just doe not want to tell GP what they are doing. Because they don't have to.

The "Big Mac".Man those things give me the squirts.As bad as it smells,it can't be good for the enviroment.

You say this like this is a standard practice. You make some good points but if anyone does what you suggest they are in the extreme minority.

Hundreds of millions more cell phones will end up in land fills than iPods.

Everything we buy has a planned obsolescence. I haven't bought anything that came with mail back packaging for recycling.

Look, if you're Greenpeace, it is perfectly rational to do what you do because everybody pays attention -- just see the number (and vehemence) of posts relative to the amount of time thread has been open!

Same phenomenon as how people do weird things -- remember that pervert they picked up from Thailand a few months ago and flew back to the US on business class, who ended up on (disgusting) Larry King -- to get noticed on TV.

Ignore such idiots and they go away.

No...its half truths and lies. Piss off.

Vinea

In that article he points out the truth of Apple's environmental record.


Well when one of GP's founders quits and says its been taken over by fanatic lunatics that says something.


That's true but GP has had little to do with stopping big corporations from polluting. Ultimately America as a whole, the Environmental Protection Agency, and congressional legislation are what have forced them to cleaned up their act.