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Children of Men - Reality?

post #1 of 49
1/11/07 at 9:06pm
Thread Starter 
I saw Children of Men tonight, and I was just wondering if anyone thinks that what happened in that movie can happen in modern society. Not just the infertility, but the global widespread chaos and horrible treatment of immigrants.

Some of the scenes in the movie were very disturbing, such as the immigrants locked up in cages. The city of London was in total ruins and armed mobs rueled the streets.

Can our society today turn into the hate, fear, and violence driven society in Children of Men?
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post #2 of 49
1/11/07 at 9:15pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
What do you mean 'turn into'?

At any given moment, we're about two weeks worth of electricity and water from total self-destruction, IMO.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #3 of 49
1/12/07 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

What do you mean 'turn into'?

Currently, nuclear weapons have not been detonated in the major cities of the World, the cities themselves are relatively clean; not piled with garbage. Immigrants are not being executed my the hundreds. There is still order in the World, and order is nowhere to be seen in Children of Men.
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post #4 of 49
1/12/07 at 10:34am
It think it has more to do with P.D. James' take on humanity, than any sort of prediction.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #5 of 49
1/12/07 at 11:17am
One more thing:

A discussion on James' take here, with a short clip of an interview with James herself (near the end):
http://media.libsyn.com/media/mhadig...dition_005.mp3
Interesting stuff.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #6 of 49
1/12/07 at 11:33am
We're already there.

Wake up.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 49
1/14/07 at 2:45pm
Would it be so terrible if our society were to break down like that? The society we have now is corrupt and violent. We are cruel and start needless wars. We pass laws which hinder our freedom on many fronts (DRM, Patriot Act, airport security) and we are constantly bombarded with propanganda and biased news from the media.

I'm not sure a restart would be such a bad thing.
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post #8 of 49
1/14/07 at 3:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite View Post

We pass laws which hinder our freedom on many fronts (DRM, Patriot Act, airport security)

Sorry turn...
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post #9 of 49
1/14/07 at 3:39pm
Uhm... Okay.

Well that was just an example, sorry I couldn't think of a better one. The first two were definitely more substantial, you could have read my whole post rather than ranting about two words in it.... Anyway, I was just trying to express that I think our society needs to be rewritten from the ground up. We have a lot of problems that could be solved with a new social structure. The only way to get there is through a brief period of anarchy. But if that period is brief, and leads to a better society at the end, it is not such a bad thing.

I was not really talking about airport security at all. Happy now?
"How fortunate are you and I.."
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"How fortunate are you and I.."
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post #10 of 49
1/14/07 at 3:43pm
There is only one thing of which you can be sure: this, too, shall pass; me, you, our society, and even our species. It will all end sometime. When Rome fell, it heralded a dark age in Europe and western Asia which lasted to the Renaissance. When the West falls, whether that is one hundred years from now or a thousand years from now, the pattern will be the same. Billions will die, and our great cities will lie in ruin to be reclaimed by the earth until their names and locations have passed from all memory.

You wonder if the collapse of our society is possible? Not only is it possible, but I would propose that it is inevitable. History is our template; unless we learn from our history! If you are interested in reading about how and why societies succeed or fail, I would strongly recommend the book Collapse (2005) by Jared Diamond. It is an excellent read; and fascinating!
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post #11 of 49
1/14/07 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

There is only one thing of which you can be sure: this, too, shall pass; me, you, our society, and even our species. It will all end sometime. When Rome fell, it heralded a dark age in Europe and western Asia which lasted to the Renaissance. When the West falls, whether that is one hundred years now or a thousand years from now, the pattern will be the same. Billions will die, and our great cities will lie in ruin to be reclaimed by the earth until their names and locations have passed from all memory.

You wonder if the collapse of our society is possible? Not only is it possible, but I would propose that it is inevitable. History is our template; unless we learn from our history! If you are interested in reading about how and why societies succeed or fail, I would strongly recommend the book Collapse (2005) by Jared Diamond. It is an excellent read; and fascinating!

I agree with you, and I go a step farther, proposing that the collapse of modern society is not only inevitable, it is even desirable.
"How fortunate are you and I.."
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"How fortunate are you and I.."
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post #12 of 49
1/14/07 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite View Post

I agree with you, and I go a step farther, proposing that the collapse of modern society is not only inevitable, it is even desirable.

If you think that the death of billions is desirable, I'll have to disagree.
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post #13 of 49
1/14/07 at 4:03pm
Realistic or not, THIS IS A GREAT FILM. Wow.
A friend will help you move, but a REAL FRIEND will help you move a body.
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A friend will help you move, but a REAL FRIEND will help you move a body.
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post #14 of 49
1/14/07 at 4:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

If you think that the death of billions is desirable, I'll have to disagree.

Not the extinction of humanity, the destruction of society. The social structure we live in will break down to allow humanity as a species to live more freely and happier. Nobody has to die.
"How fortunate are you and I.."
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"How fortunate are you and I.."
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post #15 of 49
1/14/07 at 4:30pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
So you're expecting a bloodless revolution that completely overturns the existing order of power, society, economics, and politics?

Good luck with that, let me know how it turns out.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #16 of 49
1/14/07 at 4:43pm
Thinking about the time we live in now, in the broad context of human civilization on this planet, I think we are living in the golden age, even now with all the wars and corruption, we still live fairly free lives, we're comfortable, etc. This won't last. Gene Roddenberry had it all wrong
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post #17 of 49
1/14/07 at 6:09pm
Oh fine then, I give up. I was just a thought... \
"How fortunate are you and I.."
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"How fortunate are you and I.."
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post #18 of 49
1/14/07 at 7:02pm
I haven't seen it yet, but it seems to be one of those post-apocalypse movies that explore man's capacity for nastiness.

Is it just me, or do the English seem much more interested in this theme than anyone else at the moment? 28 Days Later. Children of Men. Reign of Fire (weren't the writers British?). Saramago's Blindness (set in London).
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #19 of 49
1/14/07 at 7:59pm
It may just be that given the age of the British democratic social experiment, and its obviously tenuous nature given their history, they are acutely aware of how a few bad years can turn the world upside down...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #20 of 49
1/14/07 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

It may just be that given the age of the British democratic social experiment, and its obviously tenuous nature given their history, they are acutely aware of how a few bad years can turn the world upside down...

You may be right (although I'd like to hear a Brit chime in about this).
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #21 of 49
1/14/07 at 9:18pm
Blindness was fantastic.

And Cuaron is a superb director.
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post #22 of 49
1/15/07 at 1:07am
Were you like me and rooting for SARS? What a gip that epidemic was!! Bird Flu, another no show.

Thin out the numbers.
The devils that drive us do not discriminate
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The devils that drive us do not discriminate
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post #23 of 49
1/15/07 at 6:31pm
Is it just me or did the background scenery in that movie look like it came right out of Half Life 2?
"How fortunate are you and I.."
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"How fortunate are you and I.."
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post #24 of 49
1/15/07 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite View Post

I'm not sure a restart would be such a bad thing.

What's that Jefferson quote again? You, know the one about the necessity of revolutions from time to time in order to keep government honest. . . I think a multi-party system would be enough to do just that, but it would probably take some bloodshed at this point to get there.
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Cat: the other white meat
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post #25 of 49
1/16/07 at 4:44pm
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Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

What's that Jefferson quote again? You, know the one about the necessity of revolutions from time to time in order to keep government honest. . . I think a multi-party system would be enough to do just that, but it would probably take some bloodshed at this point to get there.

Do the ends justify the means?
"How fortunate are you and I.."
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"How fortunate are you and I.."
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post #26 of 49
1/17/07 at 8:12am
Haven't seen the film yet - but it's now on DVD (I think) so it's on my to do list.

Quote:
It may just be that given the age of the British democratic social experiment, and its obviously tenuous nature given their history,

Not quite sure what the tenuous nature bit means - as I think the social experiment has proved to be hugely stable as in true British tradition our democracy is something of a mongrel, Welsh (Briton?) and Roman society, taken over by the Saxons - supplanted by the Normans. Then the Magna Carta etc etc - all different ruling classes but a surprising amount of continunity provided by the people they ruled. It could be argued that the people perhaps changed the rulers?. With the exception of the Civil War British Society seems to have met challenges by adapting and changing painfully slowly!

I think it's left something of a fear of sudden change in the British and this is reflected in our science fiction. We're generally not optimistic about the future. Dysfunctional futures certainly aren't a new thing here - the TV greats of my youth were pretty much all about things falling apart (Quatermass, Day of the Triffids, Survivors, Threads etc etc) Generally they featured a plucky band of survivors trying to recreate an ordered society again.

I think this fear is misplaced and I agree with Outsider that things are better now than ever (apart from climate change) - but being English I think should just say it's all going to the dogs and any future changes are bound to be negative - the future, like the past, is a foreign country and you know how receptive we are in our little Island about that sort of thing!
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post #27 of 49
1/17/07 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Hopes View Post

With the exception of the Civil War British Society seems to have met challenges by adapting and changing painfully slowly!

Well, the CW was a pretty big deal, and my sense is that it remained in the back of folks' minds for the next century at least.

Quote:
I think it's left something of a fear of sudden change in the British and this is reflected in our science fiction.

I suspect that a part of it is that British history is full of sudden (or sudden-ish) changes that scared the hell out of everyone. A history of being invaded and conquered and abandoned, a history of swapping religions, of plagues, of epidemics, then the civil war, then kings with heads lopped off, then restorations, then the '15 and the '45, and a century of WOULD EVERYONE JUST CHILL during which everyone did NOT chill and they kept with all those bloody scientific advancements, then the 19th century which rightly scared the shit out of everyone, then WWI, which scared them even worse, and then, and then....
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #28 of 49
1/17/07 at 8:42am
Did I mention that it's probably not so much a prediction as it is P.D. James' take on modern selfishness, and the 'you are the things you own' mentality?

Although the Tolkien quote on allegory may apply here, that 'people sometimes confuse applicability with allegory.' Maybe vice versa?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #29 of 49
1/17/07 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Did I mention that it's probably not so much a prediction as it is P.D. James' take on modern selfishness, and the 'you are the things you own' mentality?

Although the Tolkien quote on allegory may apply here, that 'people sometimes confuse applicability with allegory.' Maybe vice versa?

I had no idea James was a Marxist. Isn't she an aristocrat?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #30 of 49
1/17/07 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I had no idea James was a Marxist. Isn't she an aristocrat?

Are you being funny? (My sarcasm sensors are on the blink.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #31 of 49
1/17/07 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Are you being funny? My sarcasm sensors are on the blink.

Marx makes the same kind of critique of identity being conflated with possessions and labor.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #32 of 49
1/17/07 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Marx makes the same kind of critique of identity being conflated with possessions and labor.

Oh.




(I don't think the caffine in on duty this morning.)







Actually, she is Christian, that Mars Hill podcast I linked to brushes on that. She isn't very public about it at all -- apparently likes to illustrate ideas, textures of good/evil rather than do the ' Jeezus-as-a-nifty/goofy-abstraction' thing.

Think 'Dorthy Sayers meets Flannery O'Connor.' Sort of.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #33 of 49
1/17/07 at 9:13am
Quote:
Well, the CW was a pretty big deal, and my sense is that it remained in the back of folks' minds for the next century at least.

Yes, you're right, I wasn't trying to downplay the English Civil War - but what's interesting is that it was one of the few times social change happened here through a revolution or a coup.

Also unlike other nations - the republic was very shortlived. After Cromwells death the monachy was re-instated.

Perhaps it has left us with a huge distrust of utopian futures!
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post #34 of 49
1/17/07 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Actually, she is Christian, that Mars Hill podcast I linked to brushes on that. She isn't very public about it at all -- apparently likes to illustrate ideas, textures of good/evil rather than do the ' Jeezus-as-a-nifty/goofy-abstraction' thing.

Think 'Dorthy Sayers meets Flannery O'Connor.' Sort of.

Well, being a Christian isn't incompatible with Marxism; his comments about religion are often pretty practical in nature.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #35 of 49
1/17/07 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

If you think that the death of billions is desirable, I'll have to disagree.

Billions die all the time. They just do it slowly. You must be thinking there will be some kind of Apocalypse... It ain't necessarily so.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #36 of 49
1/17/07 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Well, being a Christian isn't incompatible with Marxism; his comments about religion are often pretty practical in nature.

I haven't read any of here titles, so I'll have to give that a great big shrug. The analysis seems more towards a moral critique, from a Christian stance; it is a subtle one, though.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/...iews/wood.html


(I need to stop Judge Jonesing this issue.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #37 of 49
1/17/07 at 10:39am
The only other thing I should add, is that the typical 'fundies are stupid, superstitious, pigs' take will hinder understanding what she is up to.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #38 of 49
1/17/07 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

The only other thing I should add, is that the typical 'fundies are stupid, superstitious, pigs' take will hinder understanding what she is up to.

Except that she is not a fundie but a member of that highly endangered and dwindling species: the true Christian.

I suppose it will actually be the fundies that wheel out the metaphorical (I hope) auto de fe and the red-hot pincers to deal with her heresies rather than the other way round.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #39 of 49
1/17/07 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Except that she is not a fundie but a member of that highly endangered and dwindling species: the true Christian.

Which is why she sounds like a Marxist.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #40 of 49
1/17/07 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Except that she is not a fundie but a member of that highly endangered and dwindling species: the true Christian.

How could she possibly be a 'true Christian' with all that moralizing and the literal interpretation that Christ is the son of God?

Get your pinchers and the dispersion machine warmed up.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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