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What exactly happened to the Playstation 3? - Page 7

post #241 of 323
The games industry is not like the computer industry. The volume of console sales is not a good indication of profits. - In fact the more PS3s sold, the deeper the debt to pay back.

Profits are made on the sales of games. Each disk sold makes a profit for MS or Sony.
Game volume sales are a much better indicator.

http://vgchartz.com/hwcomps.php?cons...9418&end=39782

However, to guarantee market presence, both Sony and MS subsidize developers, (or provide free engineering support). So many seemingly successful games are, in reality, loss-making.


C.
post #242 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Whatever it is, it's clearly not as strong as what you're smoking. Own one, and then make an informed opinion, please.

I have to own one to know it's ugly as sin? No, I have to have seen one in the flesh to have an informed opinion about its appearance. And I have. And my opinion is that it is horrid. Of course you are welcome to disagree - as I said I just find that odd because we are talking about a piece of consumer electronics, the same "genre" of product as Macs, and the PS3 aesthetic is a long way from that of Macs.

Look at a new MacBook Pro - that is slick.
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post #243 of 323
Looks good, smells great!



C.
post #244 of 323
I'm not sure the PS3 is a failure, at this point. I'm not a serious gamer, but I did get one. It's the best value, given that it has blu-ray function and a ton of extensibility. In comparison, the XBox 360 is essentially a PS3-lite, and now that HD-DVD has bit the dust there's not a whole lot of secondary (or primary) value. The PS3 may well have tipped the format war in Sony's favor, and they stand to make a lot of money, now, due to the Blu-ray victory. Beyond those two, the Wii is completely uninteresting to those of us who like to play high-budget games.
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post #245 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

I'm not sure the PS3 is a failure, at this point. I'm not a serious gamer, but I did get one. It's the best value, given that it has blu-ray function and a ton of extensibility. In comparison, the XBox 360 is essentially a PS3-lite, and now that HD-DVD has bit the dust there's not a whole lot of secondary (or primary) value.

The 360 never had a HD DVD player, so I don't get your point.
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post #246 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Looks good, smells great!

Do I detect an insecure 360 owner? Perhaps.
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post #247 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

In comparison, the XBox 360 is essentially a PS3-lite, and now that HD-DVD has bit the dust there's not a whole lot of secondary (or primary) value. The PS3 may well have tipped the format war in Sony's favor, and they stand to make a lot of money, now, due to the Blu-ray victory.

If it's for movie watching, some stores (Amazon is one I think) are refunding XBox 360 HD-DVD drives and Microsoft may make a Blu-Ray drive addon for their 360 when prices come down enough to make it worthwhile. You can actually get a 360 (£160) and a standalone Blu-Ray player (£120) for less than a PS3 (£299).

The XBox is still half the price of the PS3, there are more games, better exclusives and it plays the games common to both better. Games are being ported to the PS3 and coming out worse or ones that are developed for both have more issues on the PS3 than the XBox regarding lighting, textures, lag etc.

Online play on the XBox is better despite having to pay for it.

I'd say that next Christmas, it's possible for the PS3 to be better value than the Xbox but right now, all it has really is Blu-Ray, which isn't a major selling point for people who buy a console for games. That's not enough to make it a PS3-lite.
post #248 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

In comparison, the XBox 360 is essentially a PS3-lite

The PS3 has a small but significant performance *disadvantage* when it comes to graphics.

True Story:

Some developers create titles for both platforms. Typically the 360 version looks better, simply because the GPU on the 360 has more texture bandwidth, and can handle higher resolution textures. The PS3 can do this, but it causes slowdown.

You might notice that many PS3 textures are a bit noisy looking. They sparkle a bit.

When Sony come to approve the titles, they will not allow the PS3 game to be released if the PS3 version looks visibly worse than the 360.

Guess what the developers do to make the two titles appear at the same visual quality?

C.
post #249 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Do I detect an insecure 360 owner? Perhaps.

I do actually have a 360, but I don't think it is perfect.
The biggest deal breaker for me is the fan noise, which kills the console as any kind of media center. It's unacceptable.

The PS3 is half heat-sink. Which is why it looks like a George Foreman grill. It puts out twice as much heat as a 360, but at least it is quiet.

The bad engineering on the PS3 is of a different kind.

Heat comparison chart.

XB360 = 192 Watts
PS3 = 380 Watts
GFG = 780 Watts
GFG360 = 1500 Watts!

C.
post #250 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

The 360 never had a HD DVD player, so I don't get your point.

It was an accessory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The XBox is still half the price of the PS3, there are more games, better exclusives and it plays the games common to both better. Games are being ported to the PS3 and coming out worse or ones that are developed for both have more issues on the PS3 than the XBox regarding lighting, textures, lag etc.

Other than cost, this is inherently debatable. It really depends on what you like, and I'm not really seeing that there's a quality-control difference in the games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The PS3 has a small but significant performance *disadvantage* when it comes to graphics.

I'm aware that the 360 has a slightly better graphics card. The difference is pretty marginal.


The 360 is a PS3-lite for the same major reason the PS2 was an XBox-lite: total feature-set. The PS3 offers a greater range of media capabilities, through built-in functions and its much better development environment. Plus, it has bluray built-in. If you're interested only in playing games, the 360 may be a better value for you, but the added cost of the PS3 is easily justifiable for anyone who is interested in using the console for things other than games, in addition to games.
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post #251 of 323
I've just learned I can stream media from my Mac to a PS3. The PS3 can be my Blu-ray player and my AppleTV. I'm in the market for one right after Christmas and I don't have any plans on playing games on it at all.
post #252 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

It was an accessory.

Exactly, it wasn't built in.
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post #253 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


Heat comparison chart.

XB360 = 192 Watts
PS3 = 380 Watts
GFG = 780 Watts
GFG360 = 1500 Watts!

Heat measured in Watts? That's unusual.
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post #254 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Other than cost, this is inherently debatable. It really depends on what you like, and I'm not really seeing that there's a quality-control difference in the games.

A number of popular games have had major problems with lag, textures, low draw distance. You can see some of these things in the video here:

http://my.opera.com/kalpesh.mistry/b...ow.dml/1586254

For gaming, you certainly aren't getting a better experience so the PS3 isn't worth twice the amount.

Microsoft now have Netflix on the 360 and I'm sure you can stream movies from your computer to the XBox too so it really comes down to Blu-Ray.

You can pick up a Blu-Ray player and a 360 cheaper than a PS3 though and they can be used independently.

If you wanted an all-in-one device, the PS3 is a good option and I prefer the appearance to the 360 but I still think the 360 is better value for money. The games are consistently cheaper too and there are far more preowned titles available.
post #255 of 323
Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW1mXlF8ovg

http://www.psillustrated.com/psillus...ooler-ps3.html

Summary: Very small test, but the PS3 was actually cooler, barely.
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post #256 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Heat measured in Watts? That's unusual.

No, it's not unusual. Watts measures the rate of heat production, heat itself is an energy flow and therefore measured in Joules. Perhaps you are thinking of temperature being measured in degrees or in Kelvin? (Hint: heat != temperature)
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post #257 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

No, it's not unusual. Watts measures the rate of heat production, heat itself is an energy flow and therefore measured in Joules. Perhaps you are thinking of temperature being measured in degrees or in Kelvin? (Hint: heat != temperature)

To be sure, but the point I'm making is that the air coming out of the consoles is around the same temperature. As tested here.

People have this erratic believe the PS3 will make your room too hot, when, in reality, it makes the room no hotter than the XBox 360. In fact if we to go even further you can see the PS3 faired even better than the 360 did over at Geek(dot)COM, when they did those extensive, extreme temperature tests.
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post #258 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

People have this erratic believe the PS3 will make your room too hot, when, in reality, it makes the room no hotter than the XBox 360. In fact if we to go even further you can see the PS3 faired even better than the 360 did over at Geek(dot)COM, when they did those extensive, extreme temperature tests.

Just because the air coming out has about the same temperature, it doesn't mean that the PS3 heats the room the same amount as a 360. You need to look at the rate at which air is being blown out the back of the PS3 vs. the 360.

The PS3, as demonstrated by the power consumption numbers, does produce more heat than a 360. Neither the 360 or the PS3 would make particularly good room heaters though (you really need at least a couple of kilowatts for that).
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post #259 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW1mXlF8ovg

http://www.psillustrated.com/psillus...ooler-ps3.html

Summary: Very small test, but the PS3 was actually cooler, barely.

If you read my post properly you'd understand what I was saying.
The PS3 uses more power and consequently puts out more waste heat. But the PS3 has better heat dissipation, and manages to be quieter and run cooler. The 360 puts out less power but still sounds like a 747.

The PS3 dumps heat better due to this:


Unfortunately, excellent thermal engineering does not a great games console make.

C.
post #260 of 323
Looks like something big is going to happen.

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6202693....s&subj=6202693

C.
post #261 of 323
I find that the PS3 is likely a better value proposition over the life of the console vs the 360 given the limited track history of the two competing platforms. In our family we have all the recent past and present consoles: XBox, PS2, Gamecube, Wii, XBox360, PS3 (I actually have a Dreamcast too somewhere...).

I bought my nephew Rock Band for his PS2. He bought an extra guitar and Rock Band 2 (game only) for the PS3. The Rock Band drums, mic and guitars work for either. We got Guitar Hero for the 360. We a game or two for the Wii but spent most of the Wii time playing 4-way Mario Kart with two controllers taken from the Gamecube. Then an assload of Rock Band/RB2.

We got nothing for the XBox. Younger than the PS2 but dead as a platform. The PS3 may or may not have better titles than the 360 in 2008 but it is far less likely to be relegated to tertiary DVD/Blu-Ray duties on a 6 year old 19" TV in the guest bedroom than the 360 will be. Sony is far less likely to kill the PS3 even after the PS4 arrives. With MS, you don't know but they sure made my XBox a dodo.

Heck, the local gamestop doesn't even carry used XBox games anymore. I wont be getting a 360 for myself even if I'm a .NET/MDX/DX9 developer.
post #262 of 323
I think the PS3 will survive for a couple of reasons:

1) It's still a very good gaming platform if you know how to properly program for it.
2) The PS3 runs VASTLY quieter than the Xbox 360 and as such could be put in the same room as the home theater setup when you connect the PS3 to your recent-production widescreen display through the HDMI connection because you don't have the distraction of the loud cooling fan like you have with the Xbox 360.
3) The PS3 still is by far the fastest-loading machine for playing Blu-ray discs. Users report loading times in the 17-22 second range, compared to a as much as minute for conventional console players.
4) I would not be surprised that Sony works out a deal with Electronic Arts to create the PS3 equivalent of Xbox Live as an extension to PlayStation Network so future versions of EA sports games on the PS3 platform allow true online multiplayer play.

Indeed, many have said the biggest thing propping up the Xbox is the Xbox Live online multiplayer system; once Sony achieves the same with the maturation of PlayStation Network, that could make Sony a major player in the videogames market again.
post #263 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Microsoft now have Netflix on the 360 and I'm sure you can stream movies from your computer to the XBox too so it really comes down to Blu-Ray.

Netflix streaming is not even close to a killer app. I have netflix and I use the streaming feature often when I'm traveling. I also sometimes use it when I am doing menial tasks that don't require full attention: I can at least listen and glance over for important parts. The problem is that the video quality is really quite lousy. I would say it is on par with VHS, and sometimes worse. Plus, the shows and flix available for streaming are generally not the best.

Bluray video, on the other hand, is so cool. Netflix also has a really nice (and growing) Bluray catalog. Honestly, when paired with even a reasonable TV and set speakers it's better than going to the movies.

The PS3 has so much untapped potential. It's not as pure as the XBox360, and I would agree that Sony's marketing group made some real mistakes in defining the product initially, but it looks like it's going to manage to grow into its big shoes. I also can expect that Sony might do something like introduce a PS3+ that packs a quicker video card and an improved Cell.
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post #264 of 323
I keep trying out PS3 games here and there and I'm just not "feeling" it. It seems for the high budget games which I would want to play, I'm fighting with the controller, and the graphics are not as good as today's average gaming PCs, and lack of antialiasing is a bit disturbing.

Maybe I'm missing something, I want to get a PS3 for the convenience, but I'm just not seeing it being worth it.
post #265 of 323
Regardless, of whether the product is good or not, Sony are a business.
They can not afford to keep throwing good money after bad.
They have consistently lost money on this thing for year after year. And presumably they have projected the revenues for the remainder of the PS3 lifetime.

Expect Sony to cut some of their losses.

C.
post #266 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Regardless, of whether the product is good or not, Sony are a business.
They can not afford to keep throwing good money after bad.
They have consistently lost money on this thing for year after year. And presumably they have projected the revenues for the remainder of the PS3 lifetime.

Expect Sony to cut some of their losses.

C.

With regard to the PS3 division, how would they cut their losses, besides laying off employees, spending less on R&D ... Less subsidies to game developers ... ? Curious.
post #267 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

With regard to the PS3 division, how would they cut their losses, besides laying off employees, spending less on R&D ... Less subsidies to game developers ... ? Curious.

Me too.

How do you stop a bucket leaking? You need to patch over the hole.

C.
post #268 of 323
I own both systems - got my 360 in early 2006 (which died and was replaced in mid-07) and bought my PS3 in early 2007. I'm also a casual gamer that, save for the big third-party titles like GTA4, Call of Duty and occasional EA sports games, sticks to system exclusives. I'm not a big online gamer, but when I do, I don't want to worry about paying a 12-month fee for something I use a handful of times a year. Also, with Blu-ray now the official HD format, it is just value added. I have nothing against the 360, I like it, but I just use it less and less and have found that, over time, I have come to enjoy my PS3 more.
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post #269 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I do actually have a 360, but I don't think it is perfect.
The biggest deal breaker for me is the fan noise, which kills the console as any kind of media center. It's unacceptable.

The PS3 is half heat-sink. Which is why it looks like a George Foreman grill. It puts out twice as much heat as a 360, but at least it is quiet.

The bad engineering on the PS3 is of a different kind.

Heat comparison chart.

XB360 = 192 Watts
PS3 = 380 Watts
GFG = 780 Watts
GFG360 = 1500 Watts!

C.

Actually, the latest Xbox360's, with 65 nm GPU, are only 150Watt.

They still use awfully chep-ass cooling sollutions though...
post #270 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorre View Post

Actually, the latest Xbox360's, with 65 nm GPU, are only 150Watt.

They still use awfully chep-ass cooling sollutions though...

Yeah - The Jasper machines look very good.

C.
post #271 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Yeah - The Jasper machines look very good.

C.

We'll see in a year if it really solved the RROD. If it's still using crappy cooling though I doubt that "look very good" is the proper reply.
post #272 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

We'll see in a year if it really solved the RROD.

I think that was (largely) fixed with the Elites.


I while back I got an interesting lecture on the old Xbox. The original Xbox differentiated itself from the PS2 by having a hard drive. The hard drive was great for consumers. But was a terrible terrible commercial decision by MS. Why?

1) No one bought memory cards. Console margins are razor thin. Often companies lose money on console hardware. But they can make that money back on ludicously overpriced stuff like memory cards.

2) Hard drive prices don't fall much - instead capacities go up. This meant that over time. The cost of manufacture of the XBox did not fall nearly as much as it should. The XBox was always too expensive.

3) It facilitated piracy.

Microsoft has learned its lesson. The base 360 comes without a hard drive and without WiFi. The base model price point is very low. But to to spec it up costs a lot of money. This maximizes sales of the console - and revenue. PS3's higher spec works against it.

Did anyone see how Sony helped fund the 360's CPU?

C.
post #273 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

The PS3 has so much untapped potential.

It really doesn't.

Getting a PS3 game to simply match the performance of a 360 takes months and months and months of additional work.

That work costs. And for key titles, developers are going to Sony for the additional cash or engineering support.

The device is not well suited for its purpose.

C.
post #274 of 323
There have been Elites with the RROD.

Face it, between the two platforms what we have is that MS killed the XBox early to facillitate 360 sales and then pushed a very buggy platform out to gamers.

Despite your wishes, it seems highly unlikely that Sony is going to do much to their PS division. Sunk costs are just that...sunk. The console should break even this year so neutering the division makes little sense unless Sony wants to leave the console market.

Yeah, right. The PS3 may not be winning the console wars this gen but it is outselling the PS2 during the same timeframe so it doesn't suck THAT much.

That they got a big kick in the pants this go around is GOOD thing...just like it was good for Nintendo to get it's ass handed to them prior to the Wii. For them to leave the market would be an insanely bad thing for gamers.
post #275 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

There have been Elites with the RROD.

Face it, between the two platforms what we have is that MS killed the XBox early to facillitate 360 sales and then pushed a very buggy platform out to gamers.

Despite your wishes, it seems highly unlikely that Sony is going to do much to their PS division. Sunk costs are just that...sunk. The console should break even this year so neutering the division makes little sense unless Sony wants to leave the console market.

Yeah, right. The PS3 may not be winning the console wars this gen but it is outselling the PS2 during the same timeframe so it doesn't suck THAT much.

That they got a big kick in the pants this go around is GOOD thing...just like it was good for Nintendo to get it's ass handed to them prior to the Wii. For them to leave the market would be an insanely bad thing for gamers.

You are right that MS made some critical errors with the 360's engineering. But it turns out that under-specifying the 360 was not as serious an error as over-specifying the PS3.

Don't point to volume sales as a sign of success. The more they sell, the more cash they lose.

The PS3 hardware will not break even this year, because as soon as the cost of production approaches the retail price - Sony will need slash the retail price again.

Stringer will have the figures in front of him. If they are projecting that the project will *never* go into profit - then they may act to shut it down - exactly as Sega did with the Dreamcast.

But I am sure they are already looking to the PS4. I don't buy the "content-only" Sony idea.

C.
post #276 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

You are right that MS made some critical errors with the 360's engineering. But it turns out that under-specifying the 360 was not as serious an error as over-specifying the PS3.

Don't point to volume sales as a sign of success. The more they sell, the more cash they lose.

The point is that Sony has a reasonable installed base in comparison to the 360 despite the cost and releasing later than the 360.

Quote:
The PS3 hardware will not break even this year, because as soon as the cost of production approaches the retail price - Sony will need slash the retail price again.

Except they have said that profitability is most important to them at this time. A price slash is more likely later in 2009 (closer to XMas) than in early 2009 when breakeven occurs.

Quote:
Stringer will have the figures in front of him. If they are projecting that the project will *never* go into profit - then they may act to shut it down - exactly as Sega did with the Dreamcast.

Saturn did poorly as well and the PS3 is not in the same boat as the Dreamcast. Frankly, it's not even in as bad a shape as the Gamecube was.

Forcasting the end of the playstation is pure FUD.
post #277 of 323
The number of console sales is irrelevant. The profitability of the platform is based on the revenue generated by games sales.

The 360 is selling more games per console. Developers have favored the 360 with more titles for many reasons. Legend has it that last year, only one PS3 title had actually gone into profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Forcasting the end of the playstation is pure FUD.

Possibly.

But when Stringer says he intends to "slaughter some sacred cows". And a clear war with the Japanese old guard about to break out. It is reasonable to guess that someone is going to get the chop. The axe is going to fall somewhere. If you were Stringer, what would you do?

Sony are not a charity.

C.
post #278 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The PS3 is half heat-sink. Which is why it looks like a George Foreman grill. It puts out twice as much heat as a 360, but at least it is quiet.

The bad engineering on the PS3 is of a different kind.

Heat comparison chart.

XB360 = 192 Watts
PS3 = 380 Watts
GFG = 780 Watts
GFG360 = 1500 Watts!

C.

So, two years after that bogus information was put out and discredited you not only parrot it like an imbecile, you actually compound your stupidity by even getting what your bogus numbers are intended to imply wrong.

The PS3 has a large power supply because, unlike the 360, it allows everyone to easily swap in any cheap off the shelf drive and is built to handle whatever you put in. The PS3 and the 360 both use roughly the same energy in use for the various models.

Which is amazing when you consider the vast graphical power advantage the PS3 has over the 360.

The engineering in the PS3 is amazing. They managed to incorporate a brand new drive technology, internal power supply, incredibly silent operation, and have one of the best reliability records of any console ever created.
post #279 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaitNextEvent View Post

So, two years after that bogus information was put out and discredited you not only parrot it like an imbecile

Carniphage didn't provide any sources for his information, and neither have you. One of you could be right, you could both be wrong. Who knows until concrete power consumption measurements are provided from a reputable source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaitNextEvent View Post

you actually compound your stupidity by even getting what your bogus numbers are intended to imply wrong.

No, he didn't. Those numbers aren't "intended to imply" anything. They "mean" something. And Carniphage is right in as much as if the 360's power consumption is 190 watts and the PS3's is 380 watts, the PS3 produces approximately twice as much heat as a 360 (the vast majority of electrical power consumption of devices like these is converted to heat). You should go away and learn some Physics before accusing someone else of stupidity in this area.
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post #280 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

No, he didn't. Those numbers aren't "intended to imply" anything. They "mean" something. And Carniphage is right in as much as if the 360's power consumption is 190 watts and the PS3's is 380 watts, the PS3 produces approximately twice as much heat as a 360 (the vast majority of electrical power consumption of devices like these is converted to heat). You should go away and learn some Physics before accusing someone else of stupidity in this area.

Ignoring that non-sensical blather.

The PS3's newest models are in the 140-170 watt range and the oldest models are in the 170-200 or so range depending on what you are doing. Putting the PS3 about +10 watts over the 360. Pretty amazing for the massive performance advantage the PS3 has over the 360.

Anyone with a meter can see for themself or just google the many people who have already hooked up their PS3 to a meter.
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