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Apple reinvents the Keyboard - Page 2

post #41 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe2211 View Post

If you haven't already, you might want to look at the FingerWorks FAQ page on "Zero-Force" typing.

http://www.fingerworks.com/faq.html

Very interesting. I suspect this is something you'd have to experience to believe. I'm interested in trying it.
post #42 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolHandPete View Post

Very interesting. I suspect this is something you'd have to experience to believe. I'm interested in trying it.

CHP,

Your response to the FW FAQ page is similiar to many traditional touch typists I have queried on this topic. Almost all of them were particularly interested in the potential for reduction of Repetitive Strain Injury (carpel tunnel, tendonitis,etc.). This survey is of course anecdotal.

The ultimate question is--Will these individuals adopt it after giving "zero force" typing a fair try? The answer is confounded by all of the enormous ancillary benefits enabled by MT that do not involve touch typing ,e.g., window/photo/image/graph / web page expansion,contraction,rotation and placement using simple finger gestures, execution of both simple and complex App controls with simple finger taps and gestures and, navigation of of the interface hierarchy (network,HD, folders,files,etc.) with simple finger movements on a touch panel.
post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe2211 View Post

CHP,

Your response to the FW FAQ page is similiar to many traditional touch typists I have queried on this topic. Almost all of them were particularly interested in the potential for reduction of Repetitive Strain Injury (carpel tunnel, tendonitis,etc.). This survey is of course anecdotal.

The ultimate question is--Will these individuals adopt it after giving "zero force" typing a fair try? The answer is confounded by all of the enormous ancillary benefits enabled by MT that do not involve touch typing ,e.g., window/photo/image/graph / web page expansion,contraction,rotation and placement using simple finger gestures, execution of both simple and complex App controls with simple finger taps and gestures and, navigation of of the interface hierarchy (network,HD, folders,files,etc.) with simple finger movements on a touch panel.

Well, let me know if you ever see an opportunity to test these - (e.g., Product Testers Wanted) - to me, it sounds like science-fiction-becomes-reality. After 25 years of touch typing, I guarantee I'll be a tough sell (but the best testimonials are from people like us!)

If I can acquire the ability to type 100 WPM with a system like this, I'll be sold. Otherwise, the sacrifice in speed may not be worth the benefit.
post #44 of 72
OK, if you want a look-see at what typing on Apple's MT panel might be, try this out

http://http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8193/

I think this unit was used on an episode of CSI: Miami
post #45 of 72
CHP.

My bad on the link in the previous post. It should be:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8193/
post #46 of 72
Engadget has an update on a new black LUXEED low-profile keyboard with LEDs by Luxiium: backlit on each character, not glowing the whole keys anymore. Somewhat like MacBook Pro's illuminated keyboard.
And with a dedicated software you can choose the exact color of each key!







Hope it will come in a Mac version.
post #47 of 72
Thread Starter 
What's the benefit of key color? I've seen them on Avid stations, but the benefit still seems minimal.
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post #48 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by wirc View Post

What's the benefit of key color? I've seen them on Avid stations, but the benefit still seems minimal.

Video editing, key combination for games, etc.
But you're right. I think the characters illumination in a dark room (ala MBP) is a better reason to buy this thing, rather than its ability to tint keys in various colors. Moreover you can tell this keyboard to have all its keys illuminated in the same color, say, in a soft arctic blue for example. It would be more elegant.
post #49 of 72
They could take this to the next level. How about a keyboard with assignable functions, printed in different colors so that lighting a different LED will light a different function? That way, you could go from Windows Ctrl-Windows-Alt to Mac Ctrl-Opt-Cmd with the press of a key. Let users print their own labels to go under clear keycaps and you could really make it useful for video editing, games, etc. Or even switch between QWERTY and Dvorak layouts without pulling keys constantly. Three or four LEDs per key (plus a microcontroller and a few circuits to handle the lighting and keycode switching) is a lot cheaper than the vaporware Optimus keyboard with the mini displays on each key.
post #50 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Slayer 26 View Post

For those who may have trouble taking in the tactile feedback thing I have a task for you. If you know how to type without looking at your keyboard try to move your hands to your desk and start typing. Not so easy is it?

I don't think your comment makes any sense.

I'm not sure if tactile makes any difference because the typing surface is a screen too. I don't think Jeff Han's multitouch makes sense in any other way. I'd sure love to get away from mice, and Mac OS doesn't make that easy. Maybe this won't do away with a separate keyboard, but I think Multitouch will complement it much better than a mouse can.
post #51 of 72
I don't think that digging up a thread that's over a month old makes much sense either... Hmm.
post #52 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by der fuerst View Post

http://www.immersion.com/
[Add to Mr. Jobs' shopping cart]


watched the video and wasn't super impressed (hart beat cell phone???) - until he got to the PDA

That is genius. at 'enough' pressure, the screen jitters eversoslightly, to give you tactile feedback. If it were jsut perceptible, and in concert with visual change and a audio 'tick' it would work. Very cool.

I"m not sure it would work so well if all your fingers were in 'home position' on a keyboard, but certainly for smaller, palmtop device, where you mostly using 2 or three fingers (tap tap taptpatpatpatp). I want iPhone to have THAT.

good find....
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post #53 of 72
Hey guys, I have been working on a Still/Video Mockup of a MacPad (MultiTouch Keyboard) for the Photoshop/Keyboard Thread.
I thought I may aswell post it here too.



(Click For Larger Pic)

The bare bones 1st step of the video can be viewed here:

Flash Version
Quicktime (HD) Version

There will be more added to the video soon. It's only about 10% complete.
5-8" MultiTouch Mini Tablet would go down a treat if you're reading!
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5-8" MultiTouch Mini Tablet would go down a treat if you're reading!
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post #54 of 72
Nice one. I started making a photoshop mockup, but then remembered that I have too much work to do as it is!
post #55 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by waytogobuddy View Post

That is genius. at 'enough' pressure, the screen jitters eversoslightly, to give you tactile feedback. If it were jsut perceptible, and in concert with visual change and a audio 'tick' it would work. Very cool.

That is not tactile feedback. That's visual feedback.

tactile (adj.): of or connected with the sense of touch
post #56 of 72
That's sonic feedback not tactile (or visual) feedback. There's an absolutely huge difference.

Rest assured, tactile feedback keyboards are far, far more efficient and accurate than keyboards without such feedback. It's been well studied for a few decades and it isn't even a controversial subject. Pretty much all HCI and human factors people are in agreement on this.

That isn't to say that there's not a place for touch pad interfaces. Rather, they are simply a poor tool for general purpose data input.
post #57 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

That's sonic feedback not tactile (or visual) feedback. There's an absolutely huge difference.

Rest assured, tactile feedback keyboards are far, far more efficient and accurate than keyboards without such feedback. It's been well studied for a few decades and it isn't even a controversial subject. Pretty much all HCI and human factors people are in agreement on this.

That isn't to say that there's not a place for touch pad interfaces. Rather, they are simply a poor tool for general purpose data input.

Yeah I agree, that seems to be the consensus. We need a touch screen Keyboard unit with a flip down keyboard layer/face plate. Not very apple-like though.
5-8" MultiTouch Mini Tablet would go down a treat if you're reading!
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post #58 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

That's sonic feedback not tactile (or visual) feedback. There's an absolutely huge difference.

Rest assured, tactile feedback keyboards are far, far more efficient and accurate than keyboards without such feedback. It's been well studied for a few decades and it isn't even a controversial subject. Pretty much all HCI and human factors people are in agreement on this.

That isn't to say that there's not a place for touch pad interfaces. Rather, they are simply a poor tool for general purpose data input.

Could you please provide some references to these studies? Google only turns up a few low sample size non-statistically significant Cornell studies. I'm interested in any studies that showed the effect (if any) on speed and accuracy with increased training on MT keyboards Thanks.
post #59 of 72
Google:
tactile feedback keyboard study

I'm not sure it's the best search string but it'll get you started and point to other jargon that returns good search results.
post #60 of 72
Thank you dfiler. What I'm most interested in is the effect of learning/repitition on ability with non-tactile keyboards. I'll be back (with apologies to the Governator).

P.S. Go Panthers in the NCAA!
post #61 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by wirc View Post

Perhaps you're heard of the Optimus Keyboard, shown here:


Still, this device is huge, and still tied down to the keyboard shape. It's expensive, requires a lot of CPU power, and it not all that beneficial, besides allowing you to see the modifier-key options.

Too much power draw, will require its own power supply, will produce a fair amount of heat.

And aside from it being expensive, the kapton flex circuits aren't rated for more than one-million flexes, and after ten million, I can promise they will fail. I don't know if that is a ton of keystrokes or not, but I do know that I built a machine to test flex circuits, and if we ran it constant, it would take about a week to do one million flexes. It went a little faster than one flex per second. Anyway, I'm not convinced that in regular use this keyboard will last longer than a year.

Despite the myriad of problems, there's no reason that it would require a troubling amount of CPU power. It doesn't need to refresh all that often, and the total pixel count on the whole keyboard isn't very high.
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post #62 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

That's sonic feedback not tactile (or visual) feedback. There's an absolutely huge difference.

Rest assured, tactile feedback keyboards are far, far more efficient and accurate than keyboards without such feedback. It's been well studied for a few decades and it isn't even a controversial subject. Pretty much all HCI and human factors people are in agreement on this.

That isn't to say that there's not a place for touch pad interfaces. Rather, they are simply a poor tool for general purpose data input.

I would be surprised if there isn't currently existing patent-work regarding the usage of transducers or other types of electromechanical parts behind touchscreens for the purpose of providing tactile feedback on a touchscreen.
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post #63 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

And aside from it being expensive, the kapton flex circuits aren't rated for more than one-million flexes, and after ten million, I can promise they will fail. I don't know if that is a ton of keystrokes or not, but I do know that I built a machine to test flex circuits, and if we ran it constant, it would take about a week to do one million flexes. It went a little faster than one flex per second. Anyway, I'm not convinced that in regular use this keyboard will last longer than a year.

I don't contest any of your claims other than maybe that of key life sufficiency. I don't think there are a lot of computer keyboards rated for much more than that, I found one Logitech where they say 10M, but for the rest that I looked at, they didn't say, so I would expect 1M, which I think has been a standard for some time.

A machine designed to test electromechanical endurance doesn't tell us the habits of a typical user
post #64 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

A machine designed to test electromechanical endurance doesn't tell us the habits of a typical user

This one did -- that was the whole point. To boot, we correlated the data to "real world" tests. Our circuits were 1 - 2mm thick traces of silver conductive ink on PET laminate. These are rolled copper, much smaller pitch, and the bending radius is quite small (check these pictures). It's really hard to say what the longevity is, but I can tell you that we've tested some copper circuits that get dicey at only 35,000 flexes. I'd say it's probably 70/30 that Art did his homework here.

I actually just saw this teardown because I applied for a job with the company that hosts the blog. How timely! However, those guys haven't given me a call-back yet. Nonetheless, looks like a fun place to work.
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post #65 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

This one did -- that was the whole point. To boot, we correlated the data to "real world" tests. Our circuits were 1 - 2mm thick traces of silver conductive ink on PET laminate. These are rolled copper, much smaller pitch, and the bending radius is quite small (check these pictures). It's really hard to say what the longevity is, but I can tell you that we've tested some copper circuits that get dicey at only 35,000 flexes. I'd say it's probably 70/30 that Art did his homework here.

What about temperature? Did your test bed result in temperature rises in the material that wouldn't occur if there were more time between flexes to allow for heat to dissipate?
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post #66 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

This one did -- that was the whole point.

Not in the way I was thinking of. Few press the same key on a keyboard continuously, round the clock. If each key on a keyboard lasts 1M presses, and a random key is pressed on average, once per second, for 40 hours a week, it looks like such a keyboard should last nearly 7 years. This is excluding half the keys, assuming that most people don't use half the keys. Some speed demons will probably kill the switches sooner, but I don't think a whole lot of people type that much.

This was just talking about the switch, you didn't mention the other parts of this keyboard that might go bad.
post #67 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

What about temperature? Did your test bed result in temperature rises in the material that wouldn't occur if there were more time between flexes to allow for heat to dissipate?

Didn't go fast enough to generate substantial heat. Enough of the devils advocate about a machine that you have not much knowledge about, or for that matter a test product you aren't likely familiar with. I don't mean to seem haughty, but I don't really want to explain everything -- it's a lot of information. It is a good machine that produces data that correlates with the usage profile of the target product.

In response to Jeff, moving parts are likely to ail before solid state electronics. All this thing really is: some OLEDs, circuits, and switches. The circuits aren't going to have problems unless they we designed incorrectly. The OLEDs, well yes, they might fail. The flex circuit is the next things I'm suspicious about. If I'm going to lay down a lot of money for a keyboard, I don't want there to be a statistically small but still notable percentage of the product that fails at 35,000 keystrokes, or perhaps less. That's my point, as clear as I can make it. By soing something as simple as re-orienting the way the flex cable connects with the switch, Art Lebedev could all but erase the chance of flex cable failure during the device's lifetime.
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post #68 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Didn't go fast enough to generate substantial heat. Enough of the devils advocate about a machine that you have not much knowledge about, or for that matter a test product you aren't likely familiar with.

Dude, it was just a question, and IMHO, a reasonable one. I'm sure plenty of accelerated lifetime tests end up being not all that realistic due to heat issues. I'm happy to believe you when you say it wasn't an issue in this case, but since you didn't mention it yourself I thought it was worth asking.
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post #69 of 72
This is the kind of thing I was thinking of. The keyboard wouldn't look like that. It would be much neater and possibly removable, but I couldn't be bothered spending much time on this one! I really saw the keyboard as being something of an extension to the screen which has the tactile response that we currently know, but offers much more in the way of configuration. Perhaps just a gel overlay or a pressed shape at the bottom of the actual screen.

post #70 of 72
Stop it with all of this multi-touch jabber.

"Multi-touch this!"
"Multi-touch that!"
"Ohh - I bet we could Multi-touch that!"
"Yes! A multi-touch toilet flusher! Amazing!"

Multi-touch is a technology invented for portable use. The advantage of a mouse interface (in non-portables) is that you can move your cursor on a 30" screen from the lower left to the upper right by only moving your hand from one edge of your mouse pad to the other.

In a portable, you don't have a lot of room for the larger interfaces like a mouse and keyboard. And THAT is where multi-touch is useful.

And when you have the precision of a mouse, why do you need gestures? With a mouse, I can easily click and drag the corner of a photo with a slight twitch of the hand, whereas with multi-touch, I'd have to lift both arms and make a huge pinching motions.

I know you are all excited for the iPhone, but cool it on the multi-touch. Think about why we don't have the click wheel as a computer interface for a moment and it might dawn on you why we don't need the multi-touch over what we have now.

Next person who mentions a multi-touch anything other than an iPhone... I'll multi-touch your mum. (JK)
post #71 of 72
I hate to tell you this, but you are wrong on every count and display woeful ignorance of MultiTouch. Fingerworks created MultiTouch for desktop machines years before Apple bought them out. Your "huge pinching motions" statement makes absolutely no sense and tells me you know nothing about Fingerworks products. I use pinching motions all the time with my iGesture pad to cut to the clipboard. It takes two fingers, like picking up a sheet of paper. Zoom, on the iGesture as well as the iPhone, takes five fingers on ONE hand. Why do I need gestures? Because I have about 30 separate commands at my fingertips without having to reach for the keyboard. And the combination of USB Overdrive and Menu Master reassigns those commands every time I switch applications. For instance, the moment I switch to any of my web browsers, the iGesture is programmed to give me forward, back, home, reload, stop, command-click to open in new tab, open new tab, next tab and previous tab, on top of the regular global functions that I keep the same to provide consistency, like cut, copy, paste, zoom in, zoom out, single click, double click, scrolling by page, scrolling by line, open file, new window, close window, quit application, etc. Now THAT's useful. I have all the same precision as any mouse plus better ergonomics. You may want to learn more about the history and functionality of MultiTouch before screaming that it's only good for the iPhone.
post #72 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball View Post

Stop it with all of this multi-touch jabber.

"Multi-touch this!"
"Multi-touch that!"
"Ohh - I bet we could Multi-touch that!"
"Yes! A multi-touch toilet flusher! Amazing!"

Multi-touch is a technology invented for portable use. The advantage of a mouse interface (in non-portables) is that you can move your cursor on a 30" screen from the lower left to the upper right by only moving your hand from one edge of your mouse pad to the other.

In a portable, you don't have a lot of room for the larger interfaces like a mouse and keyboard. And THAT is where multi-touch is useful.

And when you have the precision of a mouse, why do you need gestures? With a mouse, I can easily click and drag the corner of a photo with a slight twitch of the hand, whereas with multi-touch, I'd have to lift both arms and make a huge pinching motions.

I know you are all excited for the iPhone, but cool it on the multi-touch. Think about why we don't have the click wheel as a computer interface for a moment and it might dawn on you why we don't need the multi-touch over what we have now.

Next person who mentions a multi-touch anything other than an iPhone... I'll multi-touch your mum. (JK)


A GUI, a GUI? Who needs a GUI when you've got a command prompt?

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