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Mac OS X Leopard to sport next-gen DVD Player software - Page 2

post #41 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

Well first, they already did this. It's called Front Row. Second iTheater already exists, and it does pretty much what Front Row does.
http://www.itheaterproject.com/*

Good point...I keep forgetting about Front Row...probably 'cuz I don't have Front Row on my Mac Pro but I also keep forgetting Front Row is coming to all computers when Leopard ships.
post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

Wait, I thought black was the new white?

Or is white the new black, making black the new white and the new black at the same time, in which case how can the new black and old black coexist, or are they really just the same black in two separate temporal states juxtaposed in our current continuum viewpoint?

I'm so confused.

They get mixed. I think it's calledPlatinum.
post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

So you can see QuickTime and DVD Player being separate apps but not Safari and RSS?

RSS could benefit from a better UI. The one in Safari is decent but not nearly powerful enough.

The problem with RSS getting its own app would probably be third-party devs feeling betrayed.

I think it should stay in Safari. That's a natural combination. Very few people need a separate app.

As you mention, there are third party apps for that. I doubt Apple could do as well for such a highly specialized app that only a few would want. Apple is into making apps for the masses. Not the Pro apps, of course, but they charge appropriately for them. This would be for free. Apple can better spend its resources elsewhere, like debugging.
post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

.....

Good edit. Concise!
post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

A Mac Mini doesn't have the CPU or GPU to adequately use HD optical media.

Sure it can.

A Mini can decode H.264 1080p. We know that from months back already. The original dual 1.67 GHz model was more than adequate for that.

How much of a processor do you think a standalone HD player has?
post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

A Mac Mini doesn't have the CPU or GPU to adequately use HD optical media.




The PS3 is being sold at a loss. Sony expects to recoup its HW losses from game sales and, potentially, gaining royalities by using the PS3 to help make Blu-ray the next standard.

You'll be paying a lot mor,e than $200 for a Blu-ray drive. Also, HD optical drives use a lot more power than your standard optical drive; not to mention the CPU and GPU that will be maxed trying to decode H.264 for 1080 resolution.

You'll see it in the Mac Pro first as an option. Then, many months later, when the media starts to become more mainstream, you'll see it as an option for the iMac and maybe the MacBook Pro.

In the meantime, you can always buy one of the several external models being sold.

I have this art teacher (she's not very bright) I she was eavesdropping (par for the course) on me talking to a couple other people about how expensive next gen video game system are. I mentioned that they sell them at a loss and she said I was wrong. I explained the reasoning and making money from game sales but she told me I shouldn't believe everything I read. Then she said that she knows what she is talking about (used to work for The Wall Street Journal) She said companies make up stuff and push fake stories all the time. It made me so mad. I can't stand when people are deliberately obtuse. If she worked for WSJ then she should understand the logic behind it.
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Originally Posted by addabox

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Originally Posted by addabox

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post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevorlsciact View Post

I have this art teacher (she's not very bright) I she was eavesdropping (par for the course) on me talking to a couple other people about how expensive next gen video game system are. I mentioned that they sell them at a loss and she said I was wrong. I explained the reasoning and making money from game sales but she told me I shouldn't believe everything I read. Then she said that she knows what she is talking about (used to work for The Wall Street Journal) She said companies make up stuff and push fake stories all the time. It made me so mad. I can't stand when people are deliberately obtuse. If she worked for WSJ then she should understand the logic behind it.

You shouldn't believe everything you hear, she probably didn't work at WSJ

On the other hand, they have absolutely no reason to lie about saying they are selling them at a loss. Perhaps you should believe everything you Read

Sebastian
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post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

Well, which is it? First you say it can't do it, then you say it'll be maxed doing it, and then you say, just go ahead and get the external drive and everything will be fine.

Back in the real world, people play 1080p content on their minis, though it comes close to maxing things out (like it would on most Macs), so I assume it'll work but be close to maxed out (as a lot of other Macs with similar specs will also be).

It would really help your case if you could keep your story straight.

It can't do it, hence the comment of the CPU and GPU being maxed out TRYING to decode the large files.
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post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

A Mac Mini doesn't have the CPU or GPU to adequately use HD optical media.

Says who? From what I've read an Intel Mac Mini can play even 1080p content, although it does give the CPU a workout.

The Macbook is very similar to a Mini and I'm able to play 1080p content with no problems at all. If I scale it down, it requires more CPU power but can still handle it.

I'm also planning to get a Mini to use as a media center. I'm counting on being able to play 1080p. I don't have an HD TV yet (so I can't use Apple TV... no composite or s-video output), but I plan to buy a 1080p capable TV sometime in the future.

I'm waiting to buy the Mini until Leopard comes out. Hopefully they'll also upgrade the Minis to use Core 2 Duo. I figure it will give it an extra performance cushion for playing 1080p.
post #50 of 91
Choke it up to the pragmatist in me but I tend to go wish detailed lab results over unlearned opinions:

"We've been hearing for quite some time now that Blu-ray and HDDVD movies could prove to be too much for today's desktop microprocessors; today we finally have the proof. X-Men: The Last Stand encoded using the H.264/MPEG-4 AVC High Profile at 1080p requires more processing power to decode than affordable dual core CPUs can handle. We are at a point where GPU decode acceleration is essentially required with all but the highest end processors in order to achieve an acceptable level of quality while watching HD content on the PC."
(

source)

"Right now the format with the highest potential for pushing hardware beyond its limits is Blu-ray. With 50GB disks possible today, we could see 2+ hour movies with sustained bitrates of 45 Mbps under H.264 which would really push even an X6800 system with an 8800 GTX running the display."
(source)
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post #51 of 91
Chock it up to the pragmatist in me but I tend to go with my eyes.

My MacBook (Core Duo 1.8 ) plays 1080p at native resolution on an external monitor beautifully.

I'll look up the codec later as I'm at work.
post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

How much of a processor do you think a standalone HD player has?

Stand alone players are dedicated appliances made for doing one job. A PC is made to do multiple jobs at once. Apple will not release a Blu-ray drive that will have choppy playback during data heavy scenes and requires you to disable and turn off memory and CPU intensive features in order to play a movie. It's just not viable at this time, and certainly not the Apple way.

If you can show me some results where lower-end machines without dedicated GPUs are playing 1080p60 from H.264 Blu-ray discs, please post it here. BTW, I'm asking for H.264 discs, not VC-1, which is a much simpler codec and tremendously easier on the processors.

PS: Is anyone else NOT getting email notifications of new AppleInsider posts?
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post #53 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I think that's only because iTunes is now the multi headed hydra of the Mac software world. It slices, it dices, it chops and makes smoothies. Apple's desire to cram everything into iTunes is highly annoying. Quicktime WAS WMP's competitor back in the day of WMP6, but it's been lying there, mostly forgotten for so long that it looks sort of basic now.



Quicktime PRO also does a pretty good job of converting from one codec to another, splitting out audio or video, splitting out frames, joining movies. Sometimes it's much quicker to edit things in Quicktime PRO than one of the heavier editing packages.

I think Quicktime should stick around but lose some of the crap like the movie trailers so it's lighter and of course it should have all the PRO features built in or at least fullscreen.

I quite like Classic Windows WMP6 too though.

I've never quite seen why we need QT Player AND DVD Player either, except for the stupid full screen limitation in Quicktime. Merge the two.

Ding ding ding ding ding.

Current QT player given some lovin' and most of the PRO shit. I would be pissed if Apple dropped a lightweight stand-alone media player. I do not want to wade around in iTunes everytime I want to look or listen to an video or audio clip.

When I'm working on something I often generate great piles of test clips. The easiest way to double check what I'm doing or make comparisons is to open up a bunch o' QT players and hit play. Ditto bits of audio that I might download or generate.

Audio and video is more than songs and movies. Getting rid of a lightweight player in favor of iTunes is like making you open Word everytime you want to read an email.
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post #54 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

Chock it up to the pragmatist in me but I tend to go with my eyes.

My MacBook (Core Duo 1.8 ) plays 1080p at native resolution on an external monitor beautifully.

I'll look up the codec later as I'm at work.

I think you'll find that it's "Main Profile" H.264, rather than "High Profile". High Profile will be used on high-quality HD-DVD and Blu-Ray releases, and requires higher CPU power. QuickTime can neither play nor create High-Profile H.264.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Stand alone players are dedicated appliances made for doing one job.

Indeed. Most stand-alone players will use chips that are hard-wired to decode H.264, or programmable devices specifically aimed at H.264-level video decoding.

Don't forget the PS3 uses Cell and XBOX 360 uses a specialised 3-core PPC derivative, not to mention the GPUs in either of those machines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If you can show me some results where lower-end machines without dedicated GPUs are playing 1080p60 from H.264 Blu-ray discs

For film, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will use 1080/24p, not 1080/60p. There'd be no point (in fact, it would be a bad idea for a number of reasons) using the higher frame rate, as the films are shot at 24 fps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm asking for H.264 discs, not VC-1, which is a much simpler codec and tremendously easier on the processors.

I'm not entirely sure that's accurate. Could you provide more info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

PS: Is anyone else NOT getting email notifications of new AppleInsider posts?

Mine seemed to have stopped arriving. Hope it's fixed soon. Perhaps a trip to the feedback forum is in order.
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post #55 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Current QT player given some lovin' and most of the PRO shit. I would be pissed if Apple dropped a lightweight stand-alone media player. I do not want to wade around in iTunes everytime I want to look or listen to an video or audio clip.

When I'm working on something I often generate great piles of test clips. The easiest way to double check what I'm doing or make comparisons is to open up a bunch o' QT players and hit play. Ditto bits of audio that I might download or generate.

Audio and video is more than songs and movies. Getting rid of a lightweight player in favor of iTunes is like making you open Word everytime you want to read an email.

Well said.

The full-screen thing has always struck me as absolutely ridiculous. I pay for QTpro anyway, for the features that are actually "pro". No wonder QuickTime has such a bad reputation in Windows-land. I also reckon new Macs should come with QuickTime Pro for free.
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post #56 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

For film, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will use 1080/24p, not 1080/60p. There'd be no point (in fact, it would be a bad idea for a number of reasons) using the higher frame rate, as the films are shot at 24 fps.

I did mean 24fps, not 60fps. Thanks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I'm not entirely sure that's accurate. Could you provide more info?

Another Anandtech link: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2890&p=4
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post #57 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Another Anandtech link: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2890&p=4

That doesn't really tell us much about the relative complexity/sophistication of VC-1 and H.264 though; for a number of reasons:

1.) No information regarding the relative bit-rates of the movies is provided.

2.) No information regarding the H.264 or VC-1 profiles used on the test discs is provided. (The H.264 title could be using High Profile H.264 with the VC-1 title using Main Profile VC-1, for example).

3.) The test is being used to show the effect of GPU type on CPU utilisation. The results therefore include driver/codec implementation performance. Perhaps the VC-1-on-GPU-decoder driver is better implemented than the H.264 one. Perhaps the GPU features are better-suited to VC-1 decoding.
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post #58 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

That doesn't really tell us much about the relative complexity/sophistication of VC-1 and H.264 though; for a number of reasons:

1.) No information regarding the relative bit-rates of the movies is provided.

2.) No information regarding the H.264 or VC-1 profiles used on the test discs is provided. (The H.264 title could be using High Profile H.264 with the VC-1 title using Main Profile VC-1, for example).

3.) The test is being used to show the effect of GPU type on CPU utilisation. The results therefore include driver/codec implementation performance. Perhaps the VC-1-on-GPU-decoder driver is better implemented than the H.264 one. Perhaps the GPU features are better-suited to VC-1 decoding.

Good points. I've been looking for teh article I read that described VC-1 in detatil, and even compared it to H.264. I post it as soon as I locate it.
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post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I think you'll find that it's "Main Profile" H.264, rather than "High Profile". High Profile will be used on high-quality HD-DVD and Blu-Ray releases, and requires higher CPU power. QuickTime can neither play nor create High-Profile H.264.

Turns out it's Motion jpeg B @ 62691.55 kbps. I've never heard of high-profice vs main profile h.264 before. *Dashes off to Wikipedia*
post #60 of 91
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post #61 of 91
I can't stand to use iTunes as a video player. I use it to download video podcasts and sometimes videos from the iTunes Store, but I always use QT Player to actually watch the videos.

I'd be nice if Apple made a dedicated app for managing/playing video, but it looks like iTunes is it for the time being. \
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post #62 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

How is the AppleTV crippled?

It does exactly what Apple said it would do:
Stream Content from your iTunes (and iPhoto) Libraries.

Not necessarily all content from iTunes libraries, e.g. imported EyeTV MPEG-2 program streams. The hardware is apparently capable of supporting more video formats than published specs claim it will. No reason to belabor the topic because, well, that's already been done too much.
post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

As for Apple's RSS approach, Mail and Safari will use a shared store. I can't remember if Developers will be able to access it or not though.

Unless I've missed it, I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone into creating an open standard that allows sharing/synching feed data between different RSS/Atom clients, sort of like IMAP does for mail.
post #64 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjk View Post

Unless I've missed it, I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone into creating an open standard that allows sharing/synching feed data between different RSS/Atom clients, sort of like IMAP does for mail.

I'm wondering why this hasn't happened myself. I have an RSS Feed Library in Vienna that is starting to Rival Google News (well, a much more personalized version of it anyways) and when and if I decide I want to switch to say.... Newsfire, well let's just say I haven't had good experiences with trying to switch RSS Readers before. -_-

Sebastian
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post #65 of 91
You can always use a online services for synching RSS feed like bloglines.com.

The only problem is i haven't (yet) find a free Mac app that support it.

Vienna dev said they will have blogline support along with new UI in the next version.

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post #66 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

You can always use a online services for synching RSS feed like bloglines.com.

The only problem is i haven't (yet) find a free Mac app that support it.

NetNewsWire Lite?
post #67 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Choke it up to the pragmatist in me but I tend to go wish detailed lab results over unlearned opinions:

Choke? Go wish?

Whether or not you realize it, I think the expression you really wanted for the first was "chalk it up". "Choke it up" is an expression for how you hold the handle for something you swing, like a hammer, bat or racket.
post #68 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by confirmed View Post

the items in bold are all already implemented in DVD Player

Apple's current deinterlacing just sucks to the point that it almost doesn't count anymore. It does have it, but it's literally the worst available for software deinterlacing. I still see combing with video material. I'd use VLC's "X" deinterlacing but that program is pretty crash prone.

If they can finally figure out how to tap into the graphic chip's hardware deinterlacing can Apple finally catch up.
post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by smashbrosfan View Post

That's because Quicktime isn't WMP's competitor. iTunes is. Yes yes, I know iTunes uses the Quicktime codecs for play back. But I think Quicktime's day is over. At least, the Quicktime Player.

I think it's a case of Quicktime not being sure what it wants to be. All of it's player fuctionality is now done by iTunes, so what's left? Editing? That's iMovie's job. They need to get rid of the app altogether and have the other application take care of the codecs. Quicktime Player is a reminent of OS 9.

Quicktime is actually a software framework, and Quicktime app ties all the functionality together. The Quicktime app's editor is a lot more lightweight than iMovie and has a place in the toolbox for quickly handling simple tasks and previewing videos. It's also a very convenient audio/video recorder. It is a browser plug-in too.

iTunes offers the convenience of being a good cataloging and organization program, but iTunes' movie playback functionality is considerably clunkier than Quicktime on the speed and UI.
post #70 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjk View Post

Not necessarily all content from iTunes libraries, e.g. imported EyeTV MPEG-2 program streams. The hardware is apparently capable of supporting more video formats than published specs claim it will. No reason to belabor the topic because, well, that's already been done too much.

I'm not sure how to take this, so I'll answer it two or more ways.

Your EyeTV software should install a software plug-in to Quicktime that should allow you to play MPEG-2 through any Quicktime-enabled app. I have not tried doing that with iTunes though. You have to give iTunes the MPEG file that's in the EyeTV recording "file" because it's actually a container folder holding a few other files too. iTunes probably doesn't know what to do when given the container folder.

The MPEG-2 from over-the-air is limited to less than 20Mbps. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray allows for a lot more than that, and MPEG-2 is less processor-intensive to decode than VC-1 and H.264.
post #71 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I'm not sure how to take this, so I'll answer it two or more ways.

Your EyeTV software should install a software plug-in to Quicktime that should allow you to play MPEG-2 through any Quicktime-enabled app. I have not tried doing that with iTunes though. You have to give iTunes the MPEG file that's in the EyeTV recording "file" because it's actually a container folder holding a few other files too. iTunes probably doesn't know what to do when given the container folder.

Jeff, you misunderstood sjk's post. Whilst you can get iTunes to play files containing MPEG-2 tracks, the AppleTV will not play those files. Apple TV plays only MPEG-4 part 2 Simple Profile and MPEG-4 part 10 Baseline Profile and Main Profile.
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post #72 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Your EyeTV software should install a software plug-in to Quicktime that should allow you to play MPEG-2 through any Quicktime-enabled app.

It's /Library/QuickTime/EyeTV MPEG Support.component but I'm almost certain that's only used when exporting EyeTV transport streams because playback still works on systems where it's not installed. Muxed MPEG-2 playback is probably enabled when Apple's MPEG-2 Playback Component is installed; it's too inconvenient to uninstall and test that here right now.

Quote:
I have not tried doing that with iTunes though.

I have (with MPEG-2 component caveat). It's not my style to make claims without personal confirmation or substantial evidence from trustworthy sources.

Quote:
You have to give iTunes the MPEG file that's in the EyeTV recording "file" because it's actually a container folder holding a few other files too.

With or without any EyeTV or Apple components installed, iTunes and QuickTime don't recognize the MPEG-2 transport streams that EyeTV records. MPEG Streamclip is the only OS X app I'm aware of that does. If there are others I'd be glad to know, although they might be ones I don't need or can't afford.

Quote:
iTunes probably doesn't know what to do when given the container folder.

True; AFAIK only EyeTV does.

Quote:
The MPEG-2 from over-the-air is limited to less than 20Mbps. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray allows for a lot more than that, and MPEG-2 is less processor-intensive to decode than VC-1 and H.264.

Not sure how that relates… was it a reply to someone else's comments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Jeff, you misunderstood sjk's post. Whilst you can get iTunes to play files containing MPEG-2 tracks, the AppleTV will not play those files. Apple TV plays only MPEG-4 part 2 Simple Profile and MPEG-4 part 10 Baseline Profile and Main Profile.

Yep, that was my point. Based on currently published ATV specs it's more iPod and iTunes Store compatible than iTunes.app compatible.
post #73 of 91
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Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

...
I already do Notes in Mail. My poor Drafts mailbox if full of them. I'd use TextEdit, but when it crashes, it tends to lose everything that isn't saved, so I switched to Mail which auto-saves and re-opens everything when I re-launch the app. Apple probably missed the boat on this one, watched someone like me who uses Mail for notes, and didn't get why I'm doing it.
...
...

Oh there you go, stickies, the universal app to do notes on your mac. They
are interchangeable anywhere everywhere. The best Notes.app on the planet
i ever encountered, for 20 yrs.
Quote:
...
...
I always assumed everyone else uses Stickies anyhow.

...

Oh, you just figured it out. I should read last sentences too.
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post #74 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

NetNewsWire Lite?

Doesn't it only support newsgator services?

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post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Barbara View Post

Oh there you go, stickies, the universal app to do notes on your mac. They
are interchangeable anywhere everywhere. The best Notes.app on the planet
i ever encountered, for 20 yrs.

I've never found them anything other than annoying.

However, if they were like http://stikkit.com/ and you could create them simply by selecting text in any app and right clicking to create a stikkit, I'd love that. Integrating todo's and notes into mail is really useful because someone will send me something I have to do but there currently isn't an easy way to add them to whatever task management app I'm using be it stikkit, stickies, OmniOutliner or whatever.

http://www.indev.ca/MT2Beta.html does it but IMHO it could be simpler.
post #76 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I've never found them anything other than annoying.

However, if they were like http://stikkit.com/ and you could create them simply by selecting text in any app and right clicking to create a stikkit, I'd love that. Integrating todo's and notes into mail is really useful because someone will send me something I have to do but there currently isn't an easy way to add them to whatever task management app I'm using be it stikkit, stickies, OmniOutliner or whatever.

http://www.indev.ca/MT2Beta.html does it but IMHO it could be simpler.

It's something I've always thought I should be be using, but, it is just too messy for me to bother.
post #77 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I've never found them anything other than annoying.

However, if they were like http://stikkit.com/ and you could create them simply by selecting text in any app and right clicking to create a stikkit, I'd love that. Integrating todo's and notes into mail is really useful because someone will send me something I have to do but there currently isn't an easy way to add them to whatever task management app I'm using be it stikkit, stickies, OmniOutliner or whatever.

http://www.indev.ca/MT2Beta.html does it but IMHO it could be simpler.

OS X services to the rescue. Command-shift-y, make new sticky from selection.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #78 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's something I've always thought I should be be using, but, it is just too messy for me to bother.

I've an iMac. That big white chin at the bottom has it's uses.
post #79 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

OS X services to the rescue. Command-shift-y, make new sticky from selection.

I think you have a good point, but I want to twist it a little bit. I think the suggestion was the other way, to be able to email information in a selected sticky using system services. I thought there were some system services that offered mailing, but I can't find any in my list. I see an assembly language processor instruction set look-up which I don't ever expect to use. I just found that I had archived the Mail program, so maybe that service is supposed to be there for most Macs.
post #80 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I thought there were some system services that offered mailing, but I can't find any in my list.

Stickies -> Services -> Mail -> Send Selection?

Quote:
I just found that I had archived the Mail program, so maybe that service is supposed to be there for most Macs.

Yep.
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