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Obama, or Clinton

post #1 of 106
Thread Starter 
If Barak Obama, or Hillary Clinton were to win the the democratic nomination for president. Would either one of them be able to win the election, or would they just assure a republican win.
I myself believe that it would assure a republican win because, I don't believe that the country is ready for a woman or a black man to be president.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #2 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

If Barak Obama, or Hillary Clinton were to win the the democratic nomination for president. Would either one of them be able to win the election, or would they just assure a republican win.
I myself believe that it would assure a republican win because, I don't believe that the country is ready for a woman or a black man to be president.

Al Gore.
post #3 of 106
I don't think the nation at large will have a problem. Just a small slice of bigots; a slice composed entirely of Republicans.

I DO, however, worry about other people thinking "oh, they'll never win because they're (black|female|gay), so I'll vote for boring (random bland, unremarkable politician)."
post #4 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

I don't think the nation at large will have a problem. Just a small slice of bigots; a slice composed entirely of Republicans.

I DO, however, worry about other people thinking "oh, they'll never win because they're (black|female|gay), so I'll vote for boring (random bland, unremarkable politician)."

That is what I worry about also.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #5 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

I don't think the nation at large will have a problem. Just a small slice of bigots; a slice composed entirely of Republicans.

I DO, however, worry about other people thinking "oh, they'll never win because they're (black|female|gay), so I'll vote for boring (random bland, unremarkable politician)."

Dude you are hilariously off-base. The Republican party didn't split the country over slavery. They didn't filibuster the senate to prevent civil rights. Learn about the past of the Democratic party.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #6 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Dude you are hilariously off-base. The Republican party didn't split the country over slavery. They didn't filibuster the senate to prevent civil rights. Learn about the past of the Democratic party.

The people who won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman are overwhelmingly Republicans.
post #7 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Dude you are hilariously off-base. The Republican party didn't split the country over slavery. They didn't filibuster the senate to prevent civil rights. Learn about the past of the Democratic party.

Nick

I'm not generalizing and saying that all Republicans are racist.

I am, however, saying that every single bigot and homophobe that I've ever met was a diehard Republican.
post #8 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Dude you are hilariously off-base. The Republican party didn't split the country over slavery. They didn't filibuster the senate to prevent civil rights. Learn about the past of the Democratic party.

Nick

Parties aren't static, Nick, and you know it.

The democrats at the time of the civil war were arguing for individual freedom to chose whether to own slaves or not. This is no different than the arguments many quarters of republicans make today -- you yourself have such views of property...

And the 'Dixiecrat' that filibustered the civil rights act thought it prudent to switch parties (along with most of the racist southern democrats).

Learn the history of YOUR party, sir.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #9 of 106
Hillary is too "establishment" (ie bought and corrupt) to provide any real hope of honest leadership. Not only that, but she's being marketed as "America's Margaret Thatcher". That spells "nightmare".

and Obama...that's a democratic party suicide ticket. Traditional "values" in much of mainstream America (both dem and repub) are still subject to too much inertia to result in Obama becoming president. A woman *could* make it, if she has an excess of "yang" or male qualities, (in the mold of Thatcher, or Jeane Kirkpatrick, for example). But a black person, or bachelor, or gay, or genuine progressive.. etc etc... no matter how brilliantly qualified they might happen to be.... fergettit!

To become president. it takes access to almost unlimited wealth to campaign at highlevel intensity for 2 years and a blanket endorsement by big business. Hillary *might* have that already.. but Obama? He would have to sell his soul.

It is depressing to think further about all this, because when one gets into it... we all know that "business as usual" will reign.

The sociopaths and psychopaths always seem to win.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #10 of 106
Hillary Clinton?

Do. Not. Want.

Barack Obama?

I'll be very attentive to his views. A possible.

Al Gore?

I wish. And I would. In a heartbeat.
post #11 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Hillary is too "establishment" (ie bought and corrupt) to provide any real hope of honest leadership. Not only that, but she's being marketed as "America's Margaret Thatcher". That spells "nightmare".

and Obama...that's a democratic party suicide ticket. Traditional "values" in much of mainstream America (both dem and repub) are still subject to too much inertia to result in Obama becoming president. A woman *could* make it, if she has an excess of "yang" or male qualities, (in the mold of Thatcher, or Jeane Kirkpatrick, for example). But a black person, or bachelor, or gay, or genuine progressive.. etc etc... no matter how brilliantly qualified they might happen to be.... fergettit!

To become president. it takes access to almost unlimited wealth to campaign at highlevel intensity for 2 years and a blanket endorsement by big business. Hillary *might* have that already.. but Obama? He would have to sell his soul.

It is depressing to think further about all this, because when one gets into it... we all know that "business as usual" will reign.

The sociopaths and psychopaths always seem to win.


So Hillary is too establishment and Obama isn't establishment enough? You should be a Republicans pundit.
post #12 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

So Hillary is too establishment

to be a worthwhile contender, or president yes. But to WIN, obviously you can't be too establishment. (like, d'oh!)

Quote:
and Obama isn't establishment enough?

To win, obviously he isn't. But he could be a worthwhile contender if he didn't sell out, and become the average generic republocrat.

Quote:
You should be a Republicans pundit.

If Karl Rove offered me a decent salary, I might consider sidling up to Ann Coulter

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #13 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

The people who won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman are overwhelmingly Republicans.

Can you back that up with something besides the prejudice of your own mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

I'm not generalizing and saying that all Republicans are racist.

I am, however, saying that every single bigot and homophobe that I've ever met was a diehard Republican.

Really, every racist I've met has been a Democrat. Every sexist I've met has been a Democrat. Everyone I've ever met who promote group-think and group rights over treating people as unique individuals has been a Democrat.

But they are very good at pointing the finger at others because the "intentions" must match their OWN thinking. That thinking being racist, sexist, etc.

On topic... Hillary has a ton of money, a very clear will to win including being willing to go dirty or negative. She has massive name recognition and the primary season will be even more abbreviated and front loaded this time.

Obama, I think most people are projecting onto him and when he starts to fill in the blanks with actual answers his support and enthusiasm will fade. I think this especially so with Hillary having him in her sights.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #14 of 106
Thought I would share this: Facts and Falsehoods about Obama

Lie: The Clinton Campaign leaked information about Barack Obama.

Truth: Barack Obama's attendance at a Muslim elementary school in Indonesia was discussed in his autobiography, "Dreams from My Father". It was originally published in 1995. From his book, page 142:

In Indonesia, I’d spent 2 years at a Muslim school, 2 years at a Catholic school. In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I’d pretend to close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended.


Lie: Barack Obama attended a radical Muslim school, where he was taught Wahhabism.

Truth: Obama attended a Muslim elementary school largely because he couldn't afford to go to an American school. He was not taught Wahhabism, or any form of radical Islam. From his second book, "The Audacity of Hope" page 274:

Without the money to go to the international school that most expatriate children attended, I went to local Indonesian schools and ran the streets with the children of farmers, servants, tailors, and clerks.

Lie: Barack Obama attended a Muslim school for four years.

Truth: Obama attended a Muslim school for two years, later attending a Catholic school.

Lie: A madrassa is any school that teaches radical Islam.

Truth: Madrassa is the Arabic word for school. English speaking Schools in Arabic speaking countries that serve the children of American service men and women are also called Madrassas.

Lie: Obama's father raised him as a radical Muslim.

Truth: Obama, in his autobiography written in 1995, describes both his biological father Barack Obama Sr. and his stepfather, Lolo Soetoro, as born Muslim, but atheist or agnostic by choice.

Lie: Barack Obama is a Muslim.

Truth: Barack Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ.

Lie: Barack Obama is a Muslim who converted to Christianity in order to seek public office.

Truth: Barack Obama has been a member of the United Church of Christ since 1988, well before he sought public office.

Lie: Barack Obama is sympathetic to radical Islam.

Truth: Barack Obama will kick Osama bin Laden's ass. He said so himself:

"You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings."

Lie: Barack Obama's real name is Hussein.

Truth: Barack Obama's middle name is Hussein. For the absurdity of judging people on their middle names, read this.

Lie: Barack Obama willingly chose to study radical Islam as an adult in Indonesia.

Truth: Obama attended a Muslim school between the ages of 6 and 8, so he likely had no choice as to which school to attend. Furthermore, as stated above, the school he attended did not teach radical Islam or Wahabbism.


Too Sense - Facts and Falsehoods
post #15 of 106
Not to be rude Artman, but the first "truth" doesn't actually address the claim about the Clinton campaign. That information could have been culled from those same sources and distorted by the Clinton campaign.

As I said in one of my previous posts, it wasn't Republicans that made Dean, Bradley, or likely in the future Obama disappear. It will be the DLC wing of the Democratic party.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

I don't think the nation at large will have a problem. Just a small slice of bigots; a slice composed entirely of Republicans.

I DO, however, worry about other people thinking "oh, they'll never win because they're (black|female|gay), so I'll vote for boring (random bland, unremarkable politician)."

Hateful, inaccurate and unsupportable first statement.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #17 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

If Barak Obama, or Hillary Clinton were to win the the democratic nomination for president. Would either one of them be able to win the election, or would they just assure a republican win.
I myself believe that it would assure a republican win because, I don't believe that the country is ready for a woman or a black man to be president.

I don't think either will win, but Hillary has a better chance.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #18 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

I myself believe that it would assure a republican win because, I don't believe that the country is ready for a woman or a black man to be president.

But you don't know yet how bad and unacceptable to the masses the Republican choice might be.

The Republicans have the problem that the best known names -- McCain and Guiliani -- who might stand a good chance in the general election, are going to have a hard time capturing "the base". Someone like Brownback (God, I shudder at the idea of "President Brownback") will have a much easier time with the Republican base, but he comes across so much like Bush in so many ways (well, brighter and better-spoken than Bush, but there are greeters at Wal-Mart who manage that) that I don't think a nation largely fed up with Bush wants another self-proclaimed "compassionate conservative".

Then again, both parties always have the problem to some degree that the primaries tend to favor someone who's a bit farther from the political center than you might want to see in a general election, with candidates from both parties struggling to switch gears, sincerely or by pure political calculation, and to play to the center after the primaries are over.

Come to think of it, the system we have in the US truly sucks for sincere and consistent candidates. It's hard to make it through your own party's primaries, and then the general election, with your integrity intact. (As if the games you need to play to generate enough campaign cash aren't corrupting enough.)

The funny thing is that no one on either side looks like a clear winner to me right now. Somehow, someway, we'll whittle it down to one Democratic, one Republican, and maybe a Nader/Perot figure or two playing at the edges, and almost certainly either the one Democrat or one Republican will win. Personally, I'd be happy with nearly any Democrat over nearly any Republican. I'd be pretty happy if Al Gore jumped into the race, but he probably won't. Of the remaining Democrats, none of them have particularly grabbed me, but none of them particularly bother me either.

I used to think of McCain as a Republican I could respect. He had a reputation for integrity. But lately, I haven't seen it. It looks to me like he's been a real sell-out in the past few years while trying to position himself for a presidential run.

I don't think Clinton's gender is anywhere near as big an issue as the enormous negatives she has among many people -- both people on the right who thinks she's practically a communist, and people on the left who thinks she's turned so far to the right she might as well be a Republican. That, and perhaps the US feels the need for a change, and won't want to extend the sequence "Bush-Clinton-Bush" to "Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton".

Obama is fresh and charismatic, and if you look into his work in the Senate there's more substance there than many people might realize. But he's only been a Senator for two years. That lack of experience might be more of an issue than his race, but sadly, that probably plays against him too in a general election.
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #19 of 106
Get real. The vitriol, swift-boating and savage hysteria focused on a Senator Clinton campaign would melt the countries face off.

The endless intimations of frigidity, or lesbianism, or closeted dominitrix gear, the almost entirely fact free rehashing of various Clinton era "scandals" (because in the fever swamps, it will always be true that Hillary Killed Vince Foster Because of What He Knew), the constant speculation of the state of her marriage, the constant speculation on what Bill's up to, or into, or on top off, the relentless intimations that she is nothing more than a cybernetic, sexless power machine That Will Stop At Nothing........ it will never stop.

And it won't be just Drudge and Limbaugh and Coulter and Hume and Malkin and the RNC and various front operations and countless second tier slime merchants, although that really seems like it would be enough. When it comes to the Clintons, the "liberal media" just can't get enough of rumor, innuendo, unsubstantiated but shocking allegations the very existence of which "become the story" and just all around, all purpose panty sniffing-- all the while proclaiming their serious mindedness and high purpose and deploring the gutter politics that Hillary Forces Everyone To Practice By Being So, well, Gutterish.

Although none of that has anything at all to do with the fact that the scheming little bitch has a vagina.

It's completely wrong, of course, that Senator Clinton would be constrained from getting her partiy's nomination because we all know what we would be in for, but there it is. On the other hand, I personally find her DNC inflected "centrism" to be worthless, so I won't really lose any sleep over it.

Obama is a cipher to me. He is obviously a skilled public speaker , telegenic, has an "American dream" biography, is more or less a liberal Democrat, I guess.

But his constant yet amorphous talk of a new way of thinking about our problems that somehow trancends the "gridlock" of "partisanship", and particularly his tin-ear for talking about his faith while repeating the baseless Republican talking point about the Democrat's "problem" with their "hostility" to faith, make me very skeptical of the man.

I guess that's why we have primaries, to get a look at these people, but as a liberal Dem I'm not too happy about the Obama/Clinton two way race thing that the media have inevitably latched onto.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #20 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Hateful, inaccurate and unsupportable first statement.

States and territories allowing slavery


Repeal of laws prohibiting same-sex sex


2000 election results.






Oops. Guess it's not so inaccurate or unsupportable, huh.
post #21 of 106
None of the above. Obama will be great in 8 years and Hillary is a winner for the GOP.
post #22 of 106
Nightmare scenario:

- Hillary will have the warchest, the intelligentsia, and the loyalty of the Democratic party, and will likely win their nomination.
- No one but the most staunch of Democrats will vote for her, assuring an easy GOP win and a large left-wing disillusionment with the Democratic party.

The only saving grace for the Democrats is that, at this point, there is not a Republican that seems interesting.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #23 of 106
A nightmare scenario-- but also an unlikely one.

Clinton will probably enjoy as much support as possible for a Democratic candidate.

And her "saving graces" extend beyond the lackluster Republican field at this point to:
  • Her formidable structural advantage
  • A most likely favorable political climate for Democrats in 2008.
  • Low expectations of her set by the haters
post #24 of 106
Also, Bill coming back to the White House.

People would LOVE to have him back, I think.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #25 of 106
I just don't know what to think of Clinton.

One thing is for sure she is slimier than her husband.

People wondered why she stuck with Bill, now we know -- she is ridding on her husbands coat tails...

She offends my liberal sensibilities...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #26 of 106
SNL

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #27 of 106
we need condi rice to run......she'd win
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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post #28 of 106
Hillary is leading both Giuliani and McCain in head-to-head match-ups in recent polls. Polls right now don't predict the presidential election, but they do show that Hillary isn't hated so much by everyone that she couldn't possibly win.
post #29 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

States and territories allowing slavery


Repeal of laws prohibiting same-sex sex


2000 election results.






Oops. Guess it's not so inaccurate or unsupportable, huh.



That has got to be the biggest stretch I have ever seen here.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #30 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

we need condi rice to run......she'd win

As if.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #31 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

we need condi rice to run......she'd win

I just threw up in my mouth a little. Thanks.
post #32 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

I just threw up in my mouth a little. Thanks.

That's because you're a racist. Or a sexist. Or both.
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #33 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That's because you're a racist. Or a sexist. Or both.

Nah. Just has something against the fawning sycophants of incompenent lying buffoons with no respect for the Constitution.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
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post #34 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Hillary is leading both Giuliani and McCain in head-to-head match-ups in recent polls. Polls right now don't predict the presidential election, but they do show that Hillary isn't hated so much by everyone that she couldn't possibly win.

It's not how she polls now, it's how she'll poll after the noise machine gest through with her.

I can almost guarantee that, were she to get the nomination and run for president, by the last two weeks of the campaign a lot of the people who like her now would be saying, "I dunno, I guess I agree with her policies and all, but it's just that she's so ruthless, it's like she'll say or do anything to be president, and that Rose law firm thing really bothers me, and I know she probably didn't have anything to do with Vince Foster's death, but where there's smoke there's fire, and she's just so cold, and there's that thing about her lesbian affair while she was in the White House, I guess that why Bill had to have the intern blow him, and...."

Why? Because the national media will play along. They already have their "Hillary" story line and they will not give it up. Trash that shouldn't rise above the level of "that bitch so mean" talk down at the local watering hole will get talked about, and talked about, and talked about, and then we'll talk about how we're talking about it, and there'll be a CNN special report entitled "Is calling Hillary a frigid bitch crossing a line?".

It just is what it is, dumbfoundingly stupid and wrong though it may be.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #35 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

It's not how she polls now, it's how she'll poll after the noise machine gest through with her.

Sure, and that will be true with any Democratic candidate. But Hillary has the advantage (over, say, Obama, or Kerry before her) of already having had everything imaginable said about her that could have been said about her. People have already heard it all, and I think that's already factored into her public persona. So when Limbaugh et al. go after her, as they would any Democratic candidate, it won't have as much effect, I think. Inoculation has occurred.
post #36 of 106
I fail to see how what they'd do to Hillary is any worse than what they'd to do any other Democratic candidate.
post #37 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Hillary is leading both Giuliani and McCain in head-to-head match-ups in recent polls. Polls right now don't predict the presidential election, but they do show that Hillary isn't hated so much by everyone that she couldn't possibly win.

We're not looking at the same poll are we?

Hillary's "Strongly Unfavorable" number is 30% whereas McCain is at 11% and Giuliani is maybe down in 10%.

So yes it does show that Hillary is that much hated by the right. Hillary plays very well to the base but she has nowhere to go but down. Once the attack ads start running on health care and file gate and god knows what other crap they rake up Hillary will go down in the head to head polls and never come back.

I can't help but think that this election is basically over. All hail President McCain or Giuliani or Bush
post #38 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

We're not looking at the same poll are we?

Apparently not.

If the 2008 presidential election were held today, for whom would you vote:

Clinton: 49
Giuliani: 47

Clinton: 50
McCain: 45

Quote:
Hillary's "Strongly Unfavorable" number is 30% whereas McCain is at 11% and Giuliani is maybe down in 10%.

So yes it does show that Hillary is that much hated by the right. Hillary plays very well to the base but she has nowhere to go but down. Once the attack ads start running on health care and file gate and god knows what other crap they rake up Hillary will go down in the head to head polls and never come back.

Sure, the right-wingers absolutely despise her. God knows why, but they do. So what? Who cares if people who would never vote for her anyway view her "unfavorably" or "strongly unfavorably?" So much the better!
post #39 of 106
30% of the country still thinks Bush is doing a good job.

Let them hate her.
post #40 of 106
See the thing is, I'm sure that there are candidates that most of the candidates are smart enough, and I'm sure they are qualified enough, but I think most people just do it because the pay raise is bigger and you get your name plastered all over history books, not because you actually have something to do or say. This is why I think Al Gore would be an excellent president. He has a very clear vision and it's not just about it being the next step of his career.
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