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More Euro countries enter battle over iTunes DRM - Page 2

post #41 of 159
1/25/07 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I fail to see how anyone can be of the position that DRM is a good thing for consumers be they idealistic Europeans or xenophobic American capitalistic lackeys.

Some people might be saying that DRM is not good,
but it is less bad than some other alternatives (e.g.
downloading tunes illegally, having Apple close down the
iTunes store, having the availability of recorded
music decrease overall)
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post #42 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Guess what? You have still failed to demonstrate this is true. How is buying a song on iTunes and being able to play it on any device that supports AAC worse for the consumer than only being able to play that file on an iPod?

How is it better than buying the song elsewhere for the multiple players you want to play it on???
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post #43 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

A number of people have posted in this thread that it's "Apple v the EU" in this argument....... Norway isn't even a member of the EU.

Technically, you are right. Norwegians, as I recall, rejected their government's move to join the EU. But that is splitting hairs. While "Europe", "EU", and "Euro-zone" are technically a little bit different from each other in composition, they are largely joined at the hip politically, historically, and culturally. It is not a strecth to conflate "Norway" and "EU" -- Norwegians would gladly admit that.

That notwithstanding, the first sentence of the AI article that started this thread says: "France, Germany, and the Netherlands are all teaming up with Norway to pressure Apple......." The three first-mentioned countries are all members of the EU, thereby proving the (practical) point.

I do believe that this will become an EU-wide issue in the near future, and this is not the last we will hear of it. It is not (quite) there yet, but it will soon be.
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post #44 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I fail to see how anyone can be of the position that DRM is a good thing for consumers be they idealistic Europeans or xenophobic American capitalistic lackeys.

Because it enabled the most successful legal dowload store to be set up?
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post #45 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:07pm
Personally, I think the solution that Apple should offer is to put other music stores DRM schemes on the iPod. NOT open it up but Apple put on the DRM schemes. This would address the basic issue of a 'closed' system - Buy an iPod use it anywhere with any download opportunity (including theft). If Itunes is the problem then this gives other stores the opportunity to compete for the installed base of iPods which they need to be able to sell enought songs to flourish. While this addresses the issues raised (which are false in any case) I don't think this will satisfy the implied hidden reasons for the legal actions because this would, of course, not hurt Apple in the least.
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post #46 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave View Post

Because it enabled the most successful legal dowload store to be set up?

ABSOLUTELY!!! Fair DRM changed the game.
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post #47 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave View Post

Because it enabled the most successful legal dowload store to be set up?

It still hasn't exactly set the world alight though. Most people still buy CDs or download illegally.
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post #48 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Guess what? You have still failed to demonstrate this is true. How is buying a song on iTunes and being able to play it on any device that supports AAC worse for the consumer that only being able to play that file on an iPod?

One of two things , either a stricter Fairplay DRM on music bought in the iTMS to prevent "piracy" which will reduce the number of music players ( iPods and non iPods) you can transfer your songs to or increase the price of each song ( and force Apple and other mp3 players in following Microsoft ) in order to cover the perceived lost of income from pirated songs. I can also think of another one , how about every song you and I bought from the Itunes Store suddenly becomes defective on a Sandisk mp3 player or a Creative mp3 player . Guess who gets the blame for that especially when the same song was transferred to an iPod , it works perfectly ?

But if Apple is able to get all the record companies to sign off selling songs without Fairplay DRM and all the other mp3 players are willing to use ACC , then your theoretical problem is solved. But as for now,the best way to transfer a song to a non-iPod player is to burn your songs to a CD and import them to your player.
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post #49 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

How is it better than buying the song elsewhere for the multiple players you want to play it on???

I will answer, but not before pointing out that that is beside the point. Even if it isn't better than buying elsewhere, it doesn't make Apple licensing FairPlay bad for the consumer.

In answer to your question, I shall ask another: can you name a music download store with the same (or larger) catalogue as iTunes that sells songs that can be played on an iPod and W810i? (Without me having to re-encode the songs that I download)
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post #50 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

It still hasn't exactly set the world alight though. Most people still buy CDs or download illegally.

1) CD's - because they're better quality

2) illegally - because they're free

Its called choice. Sort of proves the point - there is plenty of choice.
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post #51 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

That notwithstanding, the first sentence of the AI article that started this thread says: "France, Germany, and the Netherlands are all teaming up with Norway to pressure Apple......." The three first-mentioned countries are all members of the EU, thereby proving the (practical) point.

But the countries aren't teaming up at all. Consumer bodies inside these countries are teaming up would be accurate. The AI piece is overstating the case.

In no way whatsoever are the countries through their governments teaming up.

Some of these aren't even legit consumer bodies and are simply grass roots protest groups.
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post #52 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:29pm
Make Apple open iTunes and it will have to increase the price of the songs sold. That I don't want but I am sure will happen if Euro makes Apple Open up. Why sell songs to rivals when the barely break even on the song.(without the iPod sale)
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post #53 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I will answer, but not before pointing out that that is beside the point. Even if it isn't better than buying elsewhere, it doesn't make Apple licensing FairPlay bad for the consumer.

In answer to your question, I shall ask another: can you name a music download store with the same (or larger) catalogue as iTunes that sells songs that can be played on an iPod and W810i? (Without me having to re-encode the songs that I download)

1) First point is irrelavant. Good for the consumer is only one part of the equation. Free cars are good for the consumer but doesn't mean companies should be forced to offer them. The question is are the current actions of the Company unfair to the consumer in any meaninful way. I believe they are not hence my assertion that the undelying motivations for these actions are not as presented.

2) Don't understand the point regarding size of catalogue. If it doesn't exist that's an business opportunity, not a problem. Second, I don't understand the instance on not re-encoding. MOST music on iPod (by far at least judging by the people I know) are re-encoding songs from a CD. Must not be a high barrier to use.
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post #54 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Its called choice. Sort of proves the point - there is plenty of choice.

Not really since it's a strawman. The fact you can choose to buy music elsewhere is irrelevant.

The argument the Norwegian ombudsmen is making is that music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restricted to playing only on Apple hardware/software. There's a further issue in Norway in that once a sale has been completed, the terms of that sale aren't allowed to change, so for instance when Apple changed the number of places you could play a song from 5 to 3 (IIRC) it should not have applied to songs already in your library.

Seems fair enough to me. At no other point in the music industry's recent history has this kind of restriction applied and I don't see why it should still apply. Most consumers would probably be of the same opinion.

Obviously it requires one of three things.

1) Apple to licence Fairplay
2) Apple and everyone else to use a common open DRM scheme
3) Getting rid of DRM

It will happen eventually.
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post #55 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Guess what? You have still failed to demonstrate this is true. How is buying a song on iTunes and being able to play it on any device that supports AAC worse for the consumer than only being able to play that file on an iPod?

Because an anemic Apple won't innovate. Trash its iPod sales and you've lost a lot of revenue.

Geez...don't want DRM then don't buy any DRM products that you feel are too encumbering.

Let Europe posture. If it comes down to it shut them off from the iTunes Store entirely and implement whatever "open" DRM the Europeans come up with for the iTunes software and iPod.

I doubt our esteemed European friends would let something as transparent as licensing for $500/unit fly. But if they did sure thing.

Vinea
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post #56 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

2) Don't understand the point regarding size of catalogue.

I can't use a competing store if it doesn't have the songs I want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Second, I don't understand the instance on not re-encoding.

If the store uses a lowish bit-rate lossy format not supported by the iPod (e.g. 128 kbps WMA), I don't want to re-compress that with AAC, as this will result in additional quality loss, and 128 kbps WMA is only just borderline acceptable quality-wise. De-compressing to AIFF/WAV preserves quality but uses too much space.

So, if there's a competitor store out there selling the same music as iTunes but using high bit-rate (at least 192) mp3 or some lossless codec, and operates in the U.K., please tell me about it.
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post #57 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eazyway View Post

Make Apple open iTunes and it will have to increase the price of the songs sold. That I don't want but I am sure will happen if Euro makes Apple Open up. Why sell songs to rivals when the barely break even on the song.(without the iPod sale)

Actually, the reverse and despite what Apple has said, they far from break even. It's low margin sure, but profitable.

There are a few companies that work with no DRM and lower prices. Firstly, the music and technology industries are spending millions on developing DRM. Just stop doing it and you've extra profit.

Next, lower the prices and make it so easy to get legally bought music that it becomes more convenient than pirating.

This is the direction that Streamburst are using. Read http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070119-8657.html

Early days yet but I'm sure many industry figures are watching.
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post #58 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:51pm
Apple should immediately pull out of Norway, to show France and Germany in concrete terms what will happen if they follow the same path.

And when customers go the iTunes Store Norway have a big banner with the phone number of their local member of parliament to call if they want it reopened.
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post #59 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Because an anemic Apple won't innovate. Trash its iPod sales and you've lost a lot of revenue.

I hardly think that the iPod is the best-selling portable player because iTunes Store is the most popular music-download site. More the other way around.

Most people fill their portable music players from their own CD collection, source of online music is a tertiary consideration after:

1.) Quality of the hardware and
2.) Quality of the music management software (as distinct from download store).

Since the iPod is the leader in terms of 1.) and iTunes the leader in terms of 2.), the iPod became the most popular portable music player. The iTunes Store became the most popular download store off the back of that.

In short, I highly doubt that licensing FairPlay would result in a trashing of iPod sales, or even for that matter have a measurable effect on them.
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post #60 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:55pm
music like any other "art" really shouldnt be about how much money they can make. drm is just furthering the industry aspect of music and not the creativity or actual love for the music. not to sound like a damn hippie...
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post #61 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

But the countries aren't teaming up at all. Consumer bodies inside these countries are teaming up would be accurate. The AI piece is overstating the case.

Who else but "consumer bodies" would team up in a case such as this? Certainly not Departments of Labor. Nor Ministries of Transportation. Nor Departments of Defense.

Again, in your quest to be "technically" correct, you are, IMHO, missing the larger point: That the iTunes/DRM issue is going to become much larger..... whether his happens in what is defined as "Europe", or "EU", or "Euro-zone" or whatever one might call the broad geographical grouping on the other side of the Atlantic is less the issue.
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post #62 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

But the countries aren't teaming up at all. Consumer bodies inside these countries are teaming up would be accurate. The AI piece is overstating the case.

In no way whatsoever are the countries through their governments teaming up.

Some of these aren't even legit consumer bodies and are simply grass roots protest groups.

Any whinging from the UK? (except from Mr. H) Maybe the UK iTS should get all the video goodies and Apple should hold off the other countries until the campaigners die down?
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post #63 of 159
1/25/07 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Not really since it's a strawman. The fact you can choose to buy music elsewhere is irrelevant.

The argument the Norwegian ombudsmen is making is that music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restricted to playing only on Apple hardware/software. There's a further issue in Norway in that once a sale has been completed, the terms of that sale aren't allowed to change, so for instance when Apple changed the number of places you could play a song from 5 to 3 (IIRC) it should not have applied to songs already in your library.

Seems fair enough to me. At no other point in the music industry's recent history has this kind of restriction applied and I don't see why it should still apply. Most consumers would probably be of the same opinion.

Obviously it requires one of three things.

1) Apple to licence Fairplay
2) Apple and everyone else to use a common open DRM scheme
3) Getting rid of DRM

It will happen eventually.

1) "..music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restrited to playing only on Apple hardware/software..." - Done - I can play it on any CD player at the same quality as an iPod and I can play on HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. etc. etc. hardware using free software. So this assertion is false on its face. I believe the real issue it access to the iPod, not using the music elsewhere. As has been pointed out many time, total iTune music sales are a small portion of illegal downloads and other purchases. Again, if you don't like the iTunes offerings there are Many Many other choices. No monopoly here.

2) I'm not really sure but I believe the number of computers has not changed. But if so this could/should be adjusted. A very minor point.

3) Of course consumers want more for less. As I've already said that's not always practical or possible. I want no taxes and all social services - not going to happen.
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post #64 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Apple should immediately pull out of Norway, to show France and Germany in concrete terms what will happen if they follow the same path.

And when customers go the iTunes Store Norway have a big banner with the phone number of their local member of parliament to call if they want it reopened.

By the same token, perhaps Apple should start by pulling out of the US, since, after all, the SEC is going after its CEO for options backdating?

As a global player, if you pull out of every country where you run into a legal problem, you will soon cease to be in business anywhere!
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post #65 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:09pm
2 Billion songs sold and counting does not mean much if Apple have to pay royalties to the record companies and artists , their internet partners as well as maintaining the iTMS infrastructure worldwide. The iPod family are the ones that are making a profit for Apple , any profit they can get from the music store is a plus for them and their shareholders.
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post #66 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Who else but "consumer bodies" would team up in a case such as this? Certainly not Departments of Labor. Nor Ministries of Transportation. Nor Departments of Defense.

Each country in Europe has a minister responsible for trade and industry and also usually one for culture too. Consumer bodies lobby these ministers who will then take it up at the political level directly with their fellow ministers in the other country to which they're at issue with. Or in Europe, pass it on to the European Commission or Parliament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Again, in your quest to be "technically" correct, you are, IMHO, missing the larger point: That the iTunes/DRM issue is going to become much larger..... whether his happens in what is defined as "Europe", or "EU", or "Euro-zone" or whatever one might call the broad geographical grouping on the other side of the Atlantic is less the issue.

I agree, it may yet become a larger issue, but, there is a BIG difference between 'Europe' and the 'EU'. One is geographic and the other is political. That's the crux of this story as it's not really hit the political level in Europe but is spreading geographically. With no political power though, the complainers are going nowhere.

The exception being Norway who may yet unilaterally apply fines on Apple. Norway being outside the EU (ie. no direct political influence) will find it hard to influence other countries, particularly when this is a fine imposed without Norway's government's say so.
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post #67 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Apple should immediately pull out of Norway, to show France and Germany in concrete terms what will happen if they follow the same path.

And when customers go the iTunes Store Norway have a big banner with the phone number of their local member of parliament to call if they want it reopened.

Then they'll get the real public opinion rather than a few whinging pirates (Grrr) who'll find another excuse not to buy anyway.
Android proves (as Windows & VHS did before it) that if you want to control people, give us choices and the belief we're capable of making them. We're all 'living' the American dream.
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Android proves (as Windows & VHS did before it) that if you want to control people, give us choices and the belief we're capable of making them. We're all 'living' the American dream.
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post #68 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

1) "..music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restrited to playing only on Apple hardware/software..." - Done - I can play it on any CD player at the same quality as an iPod and I can play on HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. etc. etc. hardware using free software. So this assertion is false on its face.

That is a hole in the Norwegian ombudsmen's argument but it's a stupid one. Why are you defending it btw? Seems odd that someone would defend DRM and all the hoops you have to go through to bypass it just to get a lower quality song on someone else's mp3 player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

I believe the real issue it access to the iPod, not using the music elsewhere.

It's not. Read the complaint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

As has been pointed out many time, total iTune music sales are a small portion of illegal downloads and other purchases. Again, if you don't like the iTunes offerings there are Many Many other choices. No monopoly here.

Ah, we're back to the strawman.


Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

2) I'm not really sure but I believe the number of computers has not changed. But if so this could/should be adjusted. A very minor point.

It should, but that's the law in Norway and Apple have broken it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

3) Of course consumers want more for less. As I've already said that's not always practical or possible. I want no taxes and all social services - not going to happen.

Ah, your second strawman in the same argument. Consumers aren't wanting more for less. The whole point of the complaint is that they should have the SAME media rights as under existing systems like CD, tape, DVD and records that they've had for decades.
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post #69 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

By the same token, perhaps Apple should start by pulling out of the US, since, after all, the SEC is going after its CEO for options backdating?

You jest, but actually a lot of small US companies are now doing their IPOs in London because US accounting rules have become too onerous. New York is now reduced to third in the world in term of IPOs. So Americans are not afraid to take their business out of America if needed. When Microsoft was being bullied a few years ago they raised the prospect of moving to Canada.
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post #70 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wil View Post

2 Billion songs sold and counting does not mean much if Apple have to pay royalties to the record companies and artists , their internet partners as well as maintaining the iTMS infrastructure worldwide. The iPod family are the ones that are making a profit for Apple , any profit they can get from the music store is a plus for them and their shareholders.

Apple made 634 million last quarter from iTunes and iPod accessories. And 3.4 billion from selling iPods. IIRC they sold about 500 million tracks between the iTV unveiling and MWSF so even if they made 10c on each song profit, that's 50 million. In the grand scheme of Apple profits, that's not a lot, but then it's not 'breaking even' either.

And of course, that's just direct profit. Indirectly, it's strategically important that Apple has a successful music store. You never know, Microsoft might amaze us one day by doing something right. ok that's a little far fetched
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post #71 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

That is a hole in the Norwegian ombudsmen's argument but it's a stupid one. Why are you defending it btw? Seems odd that someone would defend DRM and all the hoops you have to go through to bypass it just to get a lower quality song on someone else's mp3 player.

DRM doesn need a defense, or not. Its a choice. Use it/don't. Having an MP3 player is not an inalienable right. I don't have to go through the hoops, its simply an offering, one among many. I personnally buy CD's and put them on my iPod, for all the reasons already stated. I can do that on any player.

I always love it when a false argument is justfied by basically saying "That's not what I really meant". "Don't look at the man behind the curtain." If an argument is false, its false. Its not a hole, its incorrect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

It's not. Read the complaint.

I know that's what's written, which is one of my points - actions and words are not lining up therefore I question the motivations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Ah, your second strawman in the same argument. Consumers aren't wanting more for less. The whole point of the complaint is that they should have the SAME media rights as under existing systems like CD, tape, DVD and records that they've had for decades.


This is the real strawman - They're not rights. Music was and is a product that is sold under an agreement. DRM is a new agreement. iTunes is one version of the agreement. Take it/Leave it - your choice. If you think consumers don't want this and are willing to pay the same, or more for a different agreement, go to it - a business opportunity. But in any case as has been pointed out they have not lost any rights, they been offered a new opportunity which they can accept, or not. All the old rights - CD's, tapes, and if you're really dilligent vinyl are still available.
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post #72 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Apple made 634 million last quarter from iTunes and iPod accessories. And 3.4 billion from selling iPods. IIRC they sold about 500 million tracks between the iTV unveiling and MWSF so even if they made 10c on each song profit, that's 50 million. In the grand scheme of Apple profits, that's not a lot, but then it's not 'breaking even' either.

And of course, that's just direct profit. Indirectly, it's strategically important that Apple has a successful music store. You never know, Microsoft might amaze us one day by doing something right. ok that's a little far fetched


As long as Steve Ballmer is running Microsoft , then you are right.
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post #73 of 159
1/25/07 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

DRM doesn need a defense, or not. Its a choice. Use it/don't.

Again with the strawman.

The complaint isn't about choice. It's about what Apple is selling in Norway and Norwegian consumer law.

From OUT-LAW.COM since they seem to have the only decent article on this...

Quote:
"The Norwegian Consumer Council, Forbrukerradet, lodged a complaint with the Ombudsman on behalf of Norwegian consumers claiming that the Fairplay DRM system acted against the interests of consumers. It said that the fact that the technology stopped songs bought from iTunes being played on any player other than an iPod broke the law in Norway.

The Ombudsman has now agreed, according to Torgeir Waterhouse, senior advisor at the Consumer Council.

"It doesn't get any clearer than this. Fairplay is an illegal lock-in technology whose main purpose is to lock the consumers to the total package provided by Apple by blocking interoperability," Waterhouse told OUT-LAW.COM. "For all practical purposes this means that iTunes Music Store is trying to kill off one the most important building blocks in a well functioning digital society, interoperability, in order to boost its own profits."

Waterhouse said that the Ombudsman has written to Apple to say that it believes that Apple's Fairplay system is illegal. "iTunes Music Store must remove its illegal lock-in technology or appear in court," he said. "As of right now we're heading for a big breakthrough that will hopefully pave the way for consumers everywhere to regain control of music they legally purchase."

The Consumer Council believes that Apple has only three options: it can license Fairplay to any manufacturer that wants iTunes songs to play on its machines; it can co-develop an open standard with other companies; or it can abandon DRM altogether.

The Ombudsman has also backed the Consumer Council's claim that the DRM technology is not simply a copy protection scheme. The Council had argued that in restricting consumers' use of music so heavily the technology broke contract law in Norway.

"The Ombudsman has confirmed our claim that the DRM must be considered part of the contract terms and not a copy protection scheme only," said Waterhouse. "This means that under the Norwegian Marketing Control Act the DRM must provide balanced and fair rights to the consumer when they purchase music form iTunes Music Store and similar download services."

"Apple is aware of the concerns we've heard from several agencies in Europe and we're looking forward to resolving these issues as quickly as possible, Apple spokesman Tom Neumayr told AP news agency earlier this week. Apple hopes that European governments will encourage a competitive environment that lets innovation thrive, protects intellectual property and allows consumers to decide which products are successful."

http://out-law.com/page-7691
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post #74 of 159
1/25/07 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Again with the strawman.

The complaint isn't about choice. It's about what Apple is selling in Norway and Norwegian consumer law.

From OUT-LAW.COM since they seem to have the only decent article on this...



http://out-law.com/page-7691

You must really like strawmen. I wasn't responding to the 'complaint' with this comment about choice and DRM, but to your assertion that I was defending DRM - so no strawmen here.

I have already read the article you post and maintain that the complaint is ill-founded. Apple has provided for extensive interoperability, far more that any other DRM based system. Can you take a play-for-sure and burn it to a CD? (I actually don't know this) A Zune? (I'm pretty sure not) I have stated how it is interoperable with many many other systems - not all. So why is this being pursed against the least offender out there? Just a guess, but ?money?.

Again, DRM is not an Apple choice but their solution is the best one out there.
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post #75 of 159
1/25/07 at 9:05pm
One question , since Apple was open about the ITMS/iPod connection when they started operating the music store in Norway and the Norwegian Consumer council was well aware that the songs that are being bought in the iTMS was "locked-in "to the iPod for several months prior to it's introduction . Shouldn't they had said something about this even before the first music was sold ?
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post #76 of 159
1/25/07 at 9:21pm
DRM is (supposedly) designed to protect Artists royalties

With that part I agree.

Fair competition is in place. Norwegian consumers had plenty of information informing them that the iTMS only worked with iPods

If you don't want to buy/use an iPod, buy your songs elsewhere.

There was nothing devious or under-handed done by Apple.

I agree also with someones earlier comment, X-Box and Playstation games lock you into their respective consoles.

Msoft and Zune

Competition is in place and is working. You have a choice. Buy from iTMS (sorry iT store) or not.

Purchase DRM music and the Artist receives (some) just rewards for their work.

File share, rip cd's russian mp3's and the artist gets nothing
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post #77 of 159
1/25/07 at 10:45pm
DRM? Hate It? Don't buy an iPod... There's no one holding a gun to your head telling you to buy an iPod or iTunes music. If you don't like iTunes DRM buy something else.
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post #78 of 159
1/26/07 at 12:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

That is not an equivalent thing at all.

The reason you can't play an Xbox game on another console is because the Xbox represents a hardware platform that Microsoft consider to be state-of-the-art at the time of development to trade-off retail price, performance, and profits. Games then have to be written to target that hardware platform to obtain decent performance, and this requires considerable effort.

A music player on the other hand, is much more of a generic platform. Any player on the market is technically capable of decoding AAC (even if the manufacturers haven't implemented an AAC codec, they could if they wanted to), and therefore the only thing stopping them playing iTunes Store downloads is FairPlay DRM.

Whilst licensing FairPlay may do Apple some damage, it is difficult to deny that Apple being forced to licence FairPlay would be good for the consumer.


"When you buy a music CD it doesn't play only on players made by Panasonic," Kouwen declared. "People who download a song from iTunes shouldn't be bound to an iPod for the rest of their lives."

CDs are generic. iTunes was created BY APPLE. iPods ARE MADE FOR iTunes. The real culprit is DRM aka RIAA
Nate
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post #79 of 159
1/26/07 at 12:46am
Isn't the problem here the music labels that force companies to adopt drm in the first place?
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post #80 of 159
1/26/07 at 1:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

You must really like strawmen. I wasn't responding to the 'complaint' with this comment about choice and DRM, but to your assertion that I was defending DRM - so no strawmen here.

Well, you are though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

I have already read the article you post and maintain that the complaint is ill-founded. Apple has provided for extensive interoperability, far more that any other DRM based system. Can you take a play-for-sure and burn it to a CD? (I actually don't know this) A Zune? (I'm pretty sure not) I have stated how it is interoperable with many many other systems - not all. So why is this being pursed against the least offender out there? Just a guess, but ?money?.

Again, DRM is not an Apple choice but their solution is the best one out there.

Format shifting is illegal in many EU countries. I'd guess in Norway too. Until last year, ripping to an iPod was actually illegal in the UK. Even then, it's hardly a practical solution that you've got to burn it to CD (under the playlist restriction) then re-rip a substandard copy degrading it further.

If you think that's acceptable then enjoy your restrictions.
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