AirPort: AirPort Utility 1.0, 802.11n manuals, Core Duo Extreme fix - Page 2

Note that option no.4 above will *most likely* not be allowed if you choose your country settings as UK or a few others eg Germany, Japan and Spain because 802.11n ONLY @ 5ghz is NOT ALLOWED:

http://www.macworld.com/2007/01/feat...211n/index.php

Also, "The following countries do not allow wide-channel operation: Austria, Estonia, Germany, Japan, Latvia, Slovakia, Spain, United Kingdom" ( http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/ )

Wide-channel operation means 802.11n ONLY @ 5ghz in the Airport Extreme settings.

I estimate that in the UK, Germany, Spain and Japan, for example, if you choose those country settings when setting up, you will NOT have that option of [802.11n only @ 5ghz] and your throughput will not be higher than 100mbit/sec.

Some points. Apologies for cross-posting if you find my "arguments" in other threads..

1. Apple's Airport Extreme might only offer 100mbit/sec throughput in general based on the following theory. It operates in four modes, one of which is 802.11n only @ 2.4ghz and 802.11n only @ 5ghz.

2. In the 802.11n only @ 5ghz mode, you could get 100-300mbit/sec : "One of Ns possible advantages of double-wide channelsinstead of 22 MHz, they can use 40 MHz channels, which effectively doubles throughput. When you combine a newly efficient design for encoding, two or more radios, and double-wide channels, thats when you get the high symbol rate of 300 Mbps, with effective throughputs that could go well over 100 Mbps. The 100 Mbps throughput factors inas I understand itthe expectation that N devices will have brief periods in which they can bond two channels." ( http://www.wifinetnews.com/archives/cat_80211n.html )

3. In the 802.11n only @ 2.4ghz mode, you would not get more than 100mbit/sec bcause the double-wide channel bonding thingy does not work at 2.4ghz.

4. Sounds like 802.11n only @ 2.4ghz is slower but longer range than 802.11n only @ 5ghz ( because of apparently the lower power pumped through the 5ghz radios )

5. Airport Extreme operating in 2.4ghz 802.11b/g/n will very likely not get more than 100mbit/sec, more so than point no.3 above, because of the networking overhead and switching to lower speeds to send and receive packets for the 802.11b/g devices on the network.

Yeah It looks like if one is *serious* about high-speed home wireless networking, you would be looking at having ALL your devices do 802.11n at 5ghz and set AirportExtreme to [802.11n only at 5ghz] -- and have them all within a good range to push past 100mbit/sec throughput, maybe hitting 200-300mbit/sec (???). In this case certainly lack of GigE on a wired ethernet out of teh AirportExtreme is a bit of a "so close yet so far" point.

I think a huge number of people might have 802.11n/b/g @ 2.4ghz or 802.11n @ 2.4ghz as the settings they would generally use. In which case, we can forget about anything more than 100mbit/sec.

Boy, I have really gone on and on and I hope nobody got hurt from dozing off in front of their computers and whacking their heads on the screen ... Just trying to put this whole 802.11n thing into perspective.

Only for wireless to wired communication. On wired to wired comms it'd be very useful. You wouldn't stick a NAS on a wireless network generally or transfer a huge file from one Mac Pro to another using wireless when you've a gigabit ethernet port on each.

Yup agreed. ...Like you said, so close, yet so far, the home/soho wired/wireless space is a bit odd. Some compromises to be made when upgrading/ designing/ tinkering with network choices. Prosumer and Pro design small studios would be better off with wired GigE setup, and maybe an Airport Extreme for say project managers, account managers with PC or Mac laptops.

Ah well, 802.11"N" is the latest in the marketing scene, and the Apple variant sure looks a bit more streamlined than the "breast" design of the previous Airport Extreme ... There is some contention in the 5ghz area, since it is currently optional in the IEEE Draft. But it *is* good that Apple has come out with dualband 2.4ghz/5ghz.

And why would someone do that.... exactly?

C.

When they aren't informed, during the setup screen they'd happily choose the Country settings and Boom! No wide channel operation 4 u..1!!!11!..... Also, don't know what the laws are like in the UK and other places, though I doubt the police would be busting down your door because you were naughty and set some Airport Extreme settings you won't supposed to.... Or will they???

edit: This is what I'm assuming about the Country settings disabling the 5ghz 802.11n only setting.... I could be wrong, maybe AirportExtremes sold in these countries may have firmware lockouts. Mmmm... firmware hacking is my favourite kind of hack

This is the Bandwidth police! Nobody move!

C.

( OFF TOPIC: The laws are different in the UK. We do have to pay a mandatory tax to receive TV. But to make it up to us, the government allows us have sex with 16 year olds, smoke cannabis and instead of banning 16-21 year olds from drinking alcohol, we make it compulsory. )

Sunil, I don't know if you have lost your mind or you are just not reading the reason why Gigabit is needed. People have wires in their houses now, at least in the U.S. My house is wired with Cat5e cables. People who use wires instead of wireless, need the gigabit and no mattter how many reasons you lay out this will not change!! People have wires and this has nothing to do with wireless.

I don't understand why you'd say this. AE also has a built-in wired network switch.

Still, n at 5 GHz is nice, I didn't know that was an option. I think that would help reduce the interference between different networks.

Apologies if I seem to be coming out and just bashing GigE wired in general... I think I have not made it clear, I am saying the GigabitEthernet port ON the AirportExtreme is *not* that important, IMO, unless you are running the 802.11n-only-5ghz with all your devices within a good range.

Of course I think if people have laid out Cat5e or Cat6 GigabitEthernet is fantastic. Like I mentioned, home transfer of huge files or a small studio of MacPros, etc, of course GigE WIRED is good.

I'm just mentioning that the portion of the network that is coming out of the wired/wireless "gate" of the AirportExtreme, 100mbit/sec at this "gate" is generally good enough.

As above, the AirportExtreme wired network switch is 100mbit/sec, not 1000mbit/sec. These wired ethernet ports out of the AirportExtreme are of course useful, as in most routers, for example if you have a desktop right where you need the cables in for the DSL anyway from the phone jack.

I understand the frustration, and it would be *ideal* for Apple to have had these ports be 1000mbit/sec instead of 100mbit/sec. But 100mbit/sec on these wired out ports from the AirportExtreme are generally good enough, because for most settings/ situations the AirportExtreme can only hit 100mbit/sec, so that is the bottleneck for any network on the AirportExtreme wired/wireless side of this "gate".


Yeah, certainly this is the reason why 5ghz was an important addition (though optional at this stage) to the 802.11n draft spec. Ironically, 5ghz is what 802.11a operates at (54mbit/sec 802.11g speeds, but at different ranges/applications). The 802.11a that Steve Jobs described as "dead" in Jan 2003.

Using 5ghz takes the wireless network out of the 2.4ghz space, yeah, which also has issues with microwave oven leak and cordless phones. And 802.11b/g networks. It is also only at the 5ghz spectrum that 802.11n devices can do the "widechannel double-bonding 40mhz thingy" to get up to 200 or maybe even 300 mbit/sec throughput.

The disadvantage here is that all your computers and devices need to support 802.11n @ 5ghz, although you can use the wired ethernet out on the AirportExtreme to bridge to a 802.11g network for older stuff.

The other disadvantage of 5ghz is that "...The 5 GHz band at the same power levels [as 802.11b/g @ 2.4ghz] for indoor use, signals propagate less far, although they can penetrate objects more effectively..." ( http://db.tidbits.com/article/8392 ). Though clearly we don't know yet if this is the case with the AirportExtreme.

I knew that, but I just don't see a justification for that limit when all their computers support gigE now. GigE ports don't cost that much anymore, I think it's less than $5 extra per port.


The range reduction is a matter of physics. I think n over 5GHz probably gets a lot more range than g, and faster speeds at longer distances. I think the range may be the better part of the wireless deal. When I'm wired, I want the max speed, when I'm wireless, I want the max range. If I can still VNC comfortably & surf when outdoors in the shade of a tree, then I'm good.

I know your off topic comments are in half-jest, but nonetheless, intriguing... I found this article... http://maroon.uchicago.edu/viewpoint...bservation.php

In Australia you can pretty much get smash drunk from 13-16/17 at house parties ... where in some cases a whole bunch of kids from around the neighbourhood drop in, get smashed and pass out on the lawn. Then once you hit 18, oh boy, it's all on - strip bars, hookers (some cities in Australia), buying alcohol anywhere, bar-hopping, clubbing, drinking all night, etc... So much so by 22 a lot of "kids" are done with the whole getting smashed and random making out/ sex ... that they settle down and get married and start popping out babies at 25.

It's just one of those Apple things -- I've just looked at Dlink and Linksys and they 802.11n wireless products with GigE routers. Dlink has http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=1&pid=548 which is dual-band 2.4ghz/ 5(5.8 apparently(??))ghz 802.11n wireless with GigE ports.


You'd think that higher frequency means greater range but I think 802.11a devices at 5ghz actually have *less* range (though better penetration) than 802.11b/g at 2.4ghz ... So is the story. I think because they say the power output of that 5ghz for 802.11a devices is not enough to give you that range higher or equivalent to 802.11b/g@2.4ghz. This is probably why 802.11a got sidelined, despite operating at a fairly "clearer" 5ghz spectrum AND also delivering (802.11g-equivalent) speeds of 54mbit/sec max.

Overall though, my understanding is that 802.11n specifies greater power, and also MIMO (multiple radios) to deliver better speeds and range at 2.4ghz and (optionally in the spec) 5ghz. Again, we'll have to see field tests of the AirportExtreme to compare 2.4 and 5 ghz speed and range at 802.11n only.


Totally. At where I'm staying now, running off an old Asus 802.11b, placed near the front of the house. This Toshiba craptop using an MSI card 802.11b/g keeps dropping out at the back where my room and the kitchen is. My newly-aquired MacBook Core[1]Duo gets a sweet signal beyond the kitchen under the trees

Just like compression is a tradeoff between speed of compressing and size, similarly in the wireless space speed and *range* are factors that come into play...

When I'm downloading or BitTorrenting putting this 3-year-old Toshiba laptop on the table next to the wireless router table is the best way to get good transfer speeds accessing that 512kbit/sec DSL. It's fun to take it into my room at the back of the house but it drops out every 20minutes or so and I have to wait 30secs to try and reconnect ....

But all is not lost! With the MacBook now (when it comes back from a hopefully not-too-long LCD replacement [I complained about 1 dead pixel and two small white spots and they said they would replace the screen (!!!)]) things should be looking good in terms of network speed and range.

That's the weird thing with Apple hardware... Some parts are well engineered and solid, and some parts just don't hold water, so to speak. Some bits are well- or over-spec'ed and and some parts are under ...eg. the surprisingly-low-quality screen of the MacBookPros...

Everybody here does understand that you can plug a cheap 5-port Gigabit switch into one of the LAN ports on any wireless router to enable your wired computers to transfer files at 1000 instead of 100 speeds?

Yes, that can be done. Still, why make yet another powered box necessary if a single box should have been able to do the job in the first place?

Also, if the Airport Extreme is acting as network storage (with a USB hard drive), that will only work at 100Mbps.

In the UK the market is dominated by Wireless routers with built-in ADSL modems. The triple-whammy of half-speed 802.11n, no built-in ADSL modem and no gigabit wired ports really reduces the attractiveness of the product in the UK.

C.

Yep. I'd have forgiven it most things if you could attach a drive and use it over gigabit ethernet. In fact, I'd probably have switched off everything else and just plugged it in to my Draytek Vigor 2800VG. AirDisk is it's killer feature because nobody else can offer full Apple File Protocol compatibility, but hobbling it with 100Mbit or wifi makes it next to useless.

The era of home NAS is almost here... but you won't get there with the new AirPort.

You can now buy a NAS, plug it into your router/switch, and be immediately up and running. Using Apple's product, that NAS would be less than one third as quick.

I'll admit it is fine for people who don't need remote storage. However, the number of people that do need more storage is growing rapidly and plug-n-play storage is now quite cheap. Unless Apple adds gigabit to their router/node, it won't be suitable for these people.

Totally agree. 8)

In response to:

>I'm by no means a network engineer, but other than moving files around within your home network, why would one need gigibit?

In the U.S. "broadband" speeds are pretty slow compared to a lot of places in the world, but for many of us the higher speeds are really desirable. Here in Tokyo I have NTT B-Flets "Hyper Family" fiber optic at home, with a maximum throughput of 1 gigabit/second up and download.

doug

If what Sunil says is true about n at 5 GHz going up to 300 speeds, than that is on par with what I am getting with Gigabit wired right now. So you have just proven why Apple screwed up and only put 10/100 ports on their router that could possibly triple the speed wirelessly.

Sunil, you are your best enemy. You still the man though!!

I am glad I read this thread because I don't want to buy a router without 1 Gbit/sec local network ports because not all my computers are wireless, and I do have fiber optic at home.

So my question is - what are some other recommended 802.11n Mac compatible router choices out there?

Thanks,

doug

I'd go for the Airport Extreme, but I'd also get a cheap gigabit switch for your wired LAN.

What does the gigabit switch connect to - and why wouldn't it then be limited by the 100 mbit/sec port of the router itself?

Thanks,

doug

IF you are in the USA and have DSL/Cable or less, then it doesn't matter on the connection to the internet.

For instance. My DSL modem connects to my router. My router ties to my gigabit switch and then to my network. That way everything wired is on the gigabit switch(s). I wish my internet speeds would take advantage of gigabit but that is a pipe dream.

But if the router's port to your local network is limited to 100 mb/s how does that help?

Internet -- DSL -- Router --(100 mb/s)---gigabit switch---network

If the router itself is limited to 100 mb/s how does slipping in a gigabit switch help?

Thanks,

doug

It does limit the speed of the connection to the drive attached to the AE.

Normally I'd suggest the Linksys WRT350N, specwise better than AE, but it's getting very poor reviews.

Do you have some links for those reviews of the WRT350N? I'm looking at getting one instead of the Airport Express.

The Linksys WRT350N doesn't support AFP at all from what I can tell or HFS+ formatted disks. The one big advantage the Apple AE has is support for AFP/HFS+ which at this point I'm presuming is full support unlike the many NAS solutions which support AFP but often fall at the last hurdle with permission issues or dumb fork handling.

Sadly, with 100Mbit that big selling point is wasted for me.

I now have one shiny new AEBS(n) which is hidden away from view in my basement.

Important points.
1) Telling the AEBS that I live in Ireland means that the 5Ghz n only option is available in the UK. Interestingly "Ireland' is the default setting.
2) Reported Speed in Net Info is 270Mb/s
3) Negotiated Speed in Air Traffic Control varies - but is often 216Mbs
4) I have a wired ethernet link between AEBS(n) and PC acting as a media server. The 100Mbs ethernet seems to be the limiting factor. I get speeds of around 8MBs - (Q. That's pretty typical for 100megabit ethernet right?)
5) Lots of people are having problems with using the AEBS(n) to support g devices. XBox360s and Airport Express in particular. So setting up a dual band network gives me a best-of-both worlds solution.


C.

Just what I saw on the product pages at Newegg and Amazon.

Have you got a spare USB 2.0 external drive?

How about running a benchmark transferring across the network both wired and wireless ?

The WRT350N is still a pre-order item at Amazon (US) with no reviews. Maybe you mean the three-star-rated WRT300N?

I have a Mac Pro and MacBook Pro that both use my 802.11n AirPort Extreme. I have the base station configured to use 802.11n only, w/ only 5 GHz spectrum and in wide channel mode. I use my old UFO AirPort for 802.11g equipment and the rare 802.11b device.

So far my tests have been minimal, and while the new 802.11n gear is much faster than the 802.11g stuff, I'm not getting nearly the performance I expected. My scp tests in the terminal showed a transfer rate of 3.4 MB/s, or 27 Mbit. In comparison when I use 802.11g I'd get about 300 KB/s. (I used a 1.6 GB file to allow the xfer rate to settle.)

I live in an urban environment and can see many networks in addition to all the devices that I run in my apartment. This was also my out-of-box experience and I haven't yet located the equipment in its final, hopefully ideal location. However, I can't help but feel somewhat disappointed as I expected faster transfer speeds from the new gear. I did everything I could network wise to optimize the new network for speed. The new AirPort Utility reports my signal as -69 and noise as -92 dBm (for the Mac Pro across the room), so perhaps noise levels are to blame. It shows the machine's rate as 135. (Some 802.11g equipment reports similar levels - signal: -60, Noise: -92, Rate: 54.)

Anyone else with the new gear have similar or different experiences?

Anyhow, I'll report in after I tweak things some more.

Ok I have a LaCie D2 drive which does have a USB2 interface.
I used the movie "Domino". Which in MP4 format is 988MB. (near as damnit a Gigabyte)

Speeds are in MEGABYTES per second. Max speed read from Activity Monitor.
All Wireless security was OFF for this test.

Writing Via SMB
MacPro --> 802.11n 5Ghz --> AEBS --> Ethernet100 -->PC 7.31MB/s (max 7.9)
Reading Via SMB
MacPro <-- 802.11n 5Ghz <-- AEBS <-- Ethernet100 <--PC 5.48MB/s (max 6.01)
Writing AirDisk
MacPro --> 802.11n 5Ghz --> AEBS --> USB2 --> LaCie D2 3.29MB/s (max 3.7)
Reading from AirDisk.
MacPro <-- 802.11n 5Ghz <-- AEBS <-- USB2 --> LaCie D2 4.11MB/s (max 4.8 )

Speeds to the USB2 airdisk are significantly slower than reads and writes to a PC server connected via ethernet.
The Writing Speed to the Airdisk was the slowest. And watching the connection speed in Activity Monitor showed a fluctuating data rate. All other transfers showed flat lines.
Writing to airdisk always showed this behavior.

I am not able to compare with wired speeds.

C.

So, I spent a good portion of Sunday moving the new AirPort around my apartment while checking the signal graph. The base station couldn't be more than 25 feet from my Mac Pro and I put it everywhere, including hanging it behind doors and placing it on a stack of empty boxes (Mac Pro!) in a closet. At its best location (hanging from the ceiling about 2 feet above my TV) I was able to get 300 Mbit connection (rate) from both machines and could scp around 5.3 MB/s.

However, as this location wasn't practical and was somewhat an eye sore, I resorted to another location for now. How I long for speed! To really use the new base station effectively I'll need to rearrange some things.

Other than my signal issues, the new base station is great and the new AirPort Utility software is fantastic! Love those connection graphs... I've missed them since the OS 9 days.