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Are Americans Giving Up Health Freedoms?

post #1 of 95
Thread Starter 
Should the state in a "free" country have the right to mandate or force young girls to receive a vaccine for preventing cervical cancer?

Merck & Co. thinks so.

Or should we allow free citizens in a "free" country to choose or not to choose what they accept into their body?

What all will we submit to when corporations push leaders in government?

Will anyone protest the attack on civil liberties and choice of a "free" people?

Please weigh in with your thoughts...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16891832/

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #2 of 95
I think you're off-base.

All states offer medical exemptions, almost all states offer religious exemptions, and a few offer philosophical exemptions to compulsory immunizations. And states only require immunizations for public school attendance, so the religious wackos who make up the bulk of people opposing these vaccines can opt out completely if they home-school or send their kids to certain private schools. We already give these crazies too much discretion to put their kids at risk like this.
post #3 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I think you're off-base.

All states offer medical exemptions, almost all states offer religious exemptions, and a few offer philosophical exemptions to compulsory immunizations. And states only require immunizations for public school attendance, so the religious wackos who make up the bulk of people opposing these vaccines can opt out completely if they home-school or send their kids to certain private schools. We already give these crazies too much discretion to put their kids at risk like this.

I don't disagree with you in principle, but on the cervical cancer vaccine, I do.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #4 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I don't disagree with you in principle, but on the cervical cancer vaccine, I do.

I usually try not to get involved with online politics, but as a physician, I have to ask: what is different about the vaccine against the Human Papilloma Virus.
post #5 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishan View Post

I usually try not to get involved with online politics, but as a physician, I have to ask: what is different about the vaccine against the Human Papilloma Virus.

Unlike the others, HPV is a tool for modern-day death by stoning for sexual promiscuity.

Except Christians today are a little more savvy about it.
post #6 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Unlike the others, HPV is a tool for modern-day death by stoning for sexual promiscuity.

Except Christians today are a little more savvy about it.

So getting vaccinated against one of the most common transmissible diseases on the planet, one that is the greatest cause of cancer deaths in women, equates to condoning promiscuity? Specious reasoning at the very least. Delusional at worst.
post #7 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

HPV is a tool for modern-day death by stoning for sexual promiscuity.

lol. That law school is getting to you.
post #8 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I think you're off-base.

All states offer medical exemptions, almost all states offer religious exemptions, and a few offer philosophical exemptions to compulsory immunizations. And states only require immunizations for public school attendance, so the religious wackos who make up the bulk of people opposing these vaccines can opt out completely if they home-school or send their kids to certain private schools. We already give these crazies too much discretion to put their kids at risk like this.


Nice bit about certain "crazies" and "religious wackos" real nice Shawn.

I think the main cause for concern I have is that let's say only one company produces given immunization shot and general population is made to bow down and receive given one company product.

I would be far less concerned about this subject if A: it was not manditory due to pressure from manufacturer involved in buying off government officials.

and B: if there were at least 6 or 7 choices / vendors of vac shot available to public to choose from.

Of course I am just trying to think through this issue as it concerns me.

Some here only fan flames of BS

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #9 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Nice bit about certain "crazies" and "religious wackos" real nice Shawn.

Hey, I earned those pot-shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I think the main cause for concern I have is that let's say only one company produces given immunization shot and general population is made to bow down and receive given one company product.

I would be far less concerned about this subject if A: it was not manditory due to pressure form manufacturer involved in buying off government officials.

and B: if there were at least 6 or 7 choices / vendors of vac shot available to public to choose from.

Well, Fellows, think about it.

We seem to have two competing concerns here: saving lives and preventing a drug company from profiting on the HPV-vaccine trade by virtue of being first to the market. Which concern do you think is paramount? Can you see how one might not get the legitimacy of your argument that we should let more women die until more companies come out with vaccines? If it's not safe that's one thing, but I don't see you raising objections on that front.
post #10 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Hey, I earned those pot-shots.



Well, Fellows, think about it.

We seem to have two competing concerns here: saving lives and preventing a drug company from profiting on the HPV-vaccine trade by virtue of being first to the market. Which concern do you think is paramount? Can you see how one might not get the legitimacy of your argument that we should let more women die until more companies come out with vaccines? If it's not safe that's one thing, but I don't see you raising objections on that front.

If it is about saving lives how many?

In one year how many deaths will be prevented by this?

I ask this because I would argue it is far fewer than the 40,000 deaths due to auto accidents each year yet the government does not mandate to us that we all take the train and ban autos.

So the government can as it wishes determine who and when and by what means a life is saved?

If one maker of this shot is all we have at this point I would suggest it not be mandated just yet.

On the market for those who wish to have it SURE

manditory I suggest not.

Fellowship

Let me answer



3,700 in 2006 and holding a declining trend.

Looks to me we are fighting the wrong battle here.

We need to ban the car to save lives for God's sake!

at least according to your basis of "to save lives"

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #11 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishan View Post

So getting vaccinated against one of the most common transmissible diseases on the planet, one that is the greatest cause of cancer deaths in women, equates to condoning promiscuity? Specious reasoning at the very least. Delusional at worst.


I find you to be mistaken when you say:

"one that is the greatest cause of cancer deaths in women"

Breast Cancer has more than 10 times the yearly death rate:


Breast cancer is newly diagnosed in about 211,240 women each year in the United States. This is 32 % of all causes of cancer in females. Seventeen percent of all women will be given a diagnosis of breast cancer in their lifetime. Breast cancer is the leading cause of death among American women who are 40 to 55 years of age. When deaths are aggregated by age, cancer has surpassed heart disease as the leading cause of death for persons younger than 85 since 1999. Heart disease caused 356,014 deaths in women in 2002. It is estimated that breast cancer will cause 40,410 deaths in women in 2005.

We are looking in the 40,000 number each year in recent history.



I find it sad that more is not done to promote Indole-3-carbinol

"It took only one week to prove that the conversion of estradiol to 2OHE can be accomplished without drugs. Using a natural substance, researchers were able to increase the conversion of estradiol to weak estrogen by 50% in twelve healthy people.

Next, they tested the natural substance in female mice prone to developing breast cancer. Both the incidence of cancer and the number of tumors fell significantly. What was the substance? Indole-3-carbinol (IC3), a phytochemical isolated from cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, turnips, kale, green cabbage, mustard seed, etc.).

I3C was then given to 25 women for two months. Again, levels of strong estrogen declined, and levels of weak estrogen increased. But more importantly, the level of an estrogen metabolite associated with breast and endometrial cancer (16alpha-hydroxyestrone) fell."


http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/oct99-report1.html

I also find it sad that more is not done to ban Hexane in foods:

Edible Oil Extraction: Severe Limitations of Hexane (Solvent Extraction)

For practical and economic reasons, hexane (C6H14) is the dominate extraction solvent for oil seeds, used throughout the world. It is cheap (7 cents per pound) and abundant: every petroleum refinery on earth produces it, as it is an essential high-vapor pressure easily-ignited component of gasoline. As total world petroleum is about 3,500 million metric tons annually, a simple 5% early stripping of this "natural gasoline" would allow 175 million tons (385 billion pounds) of availability. Since world oil-seed extraction using hexane solvent probably accounts for around 60 million metric tons of edible oil, which represents about 250 million tons of feedstock, at a moderate loss rate of 0.15% (3 pounds per ton of feedstock), total annual hexane losses to the environment might be 750 million pounds (130 million gallons), or about 0.2% of what is potentially available from refineries. This is an extremely minor area for the petroleum industry. Thus, the combination of extremely large availability, very low cost, and simple effectiveness have created 50 years of inertia which has tended to obscure six very menacing features. These are as follows:

1. Even with modern DST units (desolventizer/toaster), some residual hexane remains in the final meal (animal feed). In many facilities, this can run as high as 0.5%. The known mild toxicity of this trace contaminate in animal feed precludes the use of solvent-extracted meal in a number of markets (it kills baby piglets). There are deeper issues involving the near-irreversible adduct that the hexane molecule forms with the interior, highly hydrophobic regions of the folded proteins. Presumably, upon digestion in an animal's gut, this toxic hexane is released. It is then free to adduct to other hydrophobic acids, etc. This is supported in the literature going back 30 years.

2. Hexane is "too efficient" - it extracts virtually every oil soluble fraction, including up to 5% of unwanted (but nutritionally very valuable) materials, usually referred to as "unsaps." This means that the meal (now contaminated with hexane) no longer contains these oil-soluble, critical nutrients (phytosterols, vitamin E family tocols, and phosphatidyl choline and other natural lecithins). Additional chemicals particularly caustic soda, and severe thermal processing, etc., are now required, and this creates quantities of waste sludges and greatly degraded unsaps. This is both a cost problem (chemicals) and a waste problem (sludges).

3. Even where the recovery of sterols, vitamin E, etc., from the unsaps is attempted, the final yield is only a fraction of the content in the original feedstock. Furthermore, it has been degraded and requires many subsequent stops of purification and modification to become edible again.

4. The inevitable daily loss of hexane (by inherent design) into the environment is probably the most severe problem. Older plants lose up to 0.5% per ton of feed, and the current state of the art guaranteed on new facilities have a maximum loss of 0.15%, with practical operations at 0.1%. Even at this guaranteed loss of 0.15%, a moderate-sized 100,000 bushel per day soybean facility would lose 6,000 pounds of hexane per day to the environment (atmospheric leaks from distillation, decanting, open vessels, and the meal). This translates to an entire 40,000 pound (tank wagon) every week lost to the environment.

5. The EPA now categorizes hexane as a HAP (haxardous air pollutant). It is included on the list of 189 toxic chemicals. It is controlled under the TRI (toxic release inventory) of the U.S. EPA. Refer to Inform, Vol. 9, No.7, July 1998: p 708.

6. Since hexane is very volatile, flammable and explosive, it is also a simple physical hazard. Numerous plants have exploded and burned over the past 50 years, often with the loss of multiple lives. Usually, one or two "go up" annually, throughout the world. After all, this is high-vapor-pressure gasoline, which is being endlessly redistilled in a closed loop, 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.

In light of the above, it is absolutely impossible to site a new hexane extraction plant in a number of locations in the United States. This trend is continuing.

Overton SV and JJ Manura (1997) using new technology found higher than expected levels of pentane, hexane, heptane, octane and benzene derivatives in all 6 hexane extracted cooking oil samples tested. This means that humans and livestock may be ingesting greater amounts of petroleum derivatives than previously thought.

Hexane and PAH awareness should be brought to the attention to all women as well.

According to the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) are byproducts of the incomplete burning of coal, gas and oil, and are used to make some pesticides. Studies show that PAHs cause tumors in laboratory animals through inhalation, via food, or through prolonged contact with skin.

PAHs are also known xenoestrogens ("zeeno"-estrogens) or false estrogens, and easily bind to estrogen receptor sites on our cells. Unlike our natural estrogen hormones that do their jobs and move on, however, estrogen-mimics aren't as easy to turn off. They cause cellular functions to change, often with undesirable results. False estrogens, for example, have been associated with several forms of estrogen-related cancers, and multiple studies show the link between PAHs and breast cancer.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #12 of 95
Let's not all but eradicate cervical cancer because more people die in cars every year.

I'm convinced!

Apparently, most insurance companies already cover the HPV vaccine. But this concern about the drug company raking in untold billions suggests to me that tons of girls aren't getting vaccinated. Compulsory vaccination laws would change that-- and save thousands of lives.

Your call.
post #13 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Let's not all but eradicate cervical cancer because more people die in cars every year.

I'm convinced!

Apparently, most insurance companies already cover the HPV vaccine. But this concern about the drug company raking in untold billions suggests to me that tons of girls aren't getting vaccinated. Compulsory vaccination laws would change that-- and save thousands of lives.

Your call.

Shawn you are welcome to frame it that way.

Bad example of how to argue your case but to each their own.

Reality is however that you have ignored every single point I raised and asked you. Or at best you did not ignore my points but simply chose to skip over them as you can not appreciate the smaller details surrounding a complex issue such as this one.

You know the way you make your argument could be applied to why we needed to have the war in Iraq.

Just reduce the issue down for lemmings like Sean Hannity does. and leave the fine details for thoughtful folks.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #14 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Bad example of how to argue your case but to each their own.

I apologize for not wanting to get into cars, boats, trucks, rubber duckies, sean hannity, lemmings, edible oil extractions, and the iraq war in a thread not having anything to do with those things. Fact is, I'm keeping things focused on what's important, so if you feel like I'm not giving you a fair shake on something, let me know.

Like:

"But what about this..."
post #15 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

...so the religious wackos who make up the bulk of people opposing these vaccines can opt out completely if they home-school or send their kids to certain private schools. We already give these crazies too much discretion to put their kids at risk like this.

Speaking as someone who had Vioxx prescribed to him because of a sore back, I would say it's the crusading left-wing wackos who have been given too much discretion in putting people's kids at risk.

When they've guinea-pigged your daughters for a decade or two, then I'll think about forcing mine to get it.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #16 of 95
Vioxx is a left-wing drug? Merck is a left-wing giant pharmaceutical corporation?

I do think Fellowhip has a point that pharmaceutical companies have so much money and that money infects the system in subtle, and maybe not-so-subtle ways. Well-done analyses show that studies funded by drug companies tend to favor the company's own drug. We are oversold new drugs that don't have advantages over older (and therefore cheaper) drugs. Money is spent on finding new drugs that will cost more but aren't necessary. And Americans are overcharged for drugs relative to other countries, and our executive branch has promised to veto legislation permitting our government to bargain with drug companies. It all adds up to big profits for them but not-so-good medicine for us.
post #17 of 95
Wasn't referring to the drug per se, moreso groups that campaign to make such health care decisions completely centralized. With often disastrous results.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #18 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Wasn't referring to the drug per se, moreso groups that campaign to make such health care decisions completely centralized. With often disastrous results.

You suspect the safety of this drug?

...didn't think so.

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing.
post #19 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Should the state in a "free" country have the right to mandate or force young girls to receive a vaccine for preventing cervical cancer?

Fellows

Perhaps a bit of historical perspective on the 'required school immunizations' is in order. Starting with the spread of Spanish Influenza over Europe/America due to WW1, and up to the successful finding of the polio vaccine, America had been on occassion devastated by "communicable" diseases. Typhoid, scarlet fever, tuberculosis, measles, smallpox, et al.

Luckily, many of these could be prevented by 'early vaccination' of young, healthy humans, even children! Lo and behold, if we required all children to be vaccinated BFORE attending school classes (thereby infecting their classmates) we might be able to prevent the plagues that had effected us in the past.

Now, unless it is the common practice in our schools today to encourage {or demand?} that our school children engage in various forms of sexual intercourse which would contribute to the "transmission" of STD's or HPV, or lord nows what else, then forcing otherwise virginal young women to accept these medical 'miracles' is somewhat Draconion. I don't for a minute believe that HPV is spread thru coughing, sneezing, or dirty schoolroom doorknobs.

I must say though, If I had a 10 yr old girl as a daughter, she would be already be scheduled to visit a doctor. No need to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Paz
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem to lightly...it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Thomas Paine
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What we obtain too cheap, we esteem to lightly...it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Thomas Paine
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post #20 of 95
Since saving lives with the HPV vaccine and *sigh* banning cars to "prevent thousands of deaths" are not mutually exclusive, Fellowship, you really are reaching hard on this one. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that you of all people are not taking a "life is paramount above all else" stance.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #21 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by rufusswan View Post

Perhaps a bit of historical perspective on the 'required school immunizations' is in order. Starting with the spread of Spanish Influenza over Europe/America due to WW1, and up to the successful finding of the polio vaccine, America had been on occassion devastated by "communicable" diseases. Typhoid, scarlet fever, tuberculosis, measles, smallpox, et al.

Luckily, many of these could be prevented by 'early vaccination' of young, healthy humans, even children! Lo and behold, if we required all children to be vaccinated BFORE attending school classes (thereby infecting their classmates) we might be able to prevent the plagues that had effected us in the past.

Now, unless it is the common practice in our schools today to encourage {or demand?} that our school children engage in various forms of sexual intercourse which would contribute to the "transmission" of STD's or HPV, or lord nows what else, then forcing otherwise virginal young women to accept these medical 'miracles' is somewhat Draconion. I don't for a minute believe that HPV is spread thru coughing, sneezing, or dirty schoolroom doorknobs.

I must say though, If I had a 10 yr old girl as a daughter, she would be already be scheduled to visit a doctor. No need to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Paz

I'm inclined to find that those who would campaign against both the HPV vaccine and safe-sex education in schools are criminally responsible for any disease transmissions and deaths that result from that combination.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #22 of 95
Thread Starter 
I thought we Americans did not like dictators.

The dictator of Texas has spoken:



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16948093/

If this kind of abuse of power continues I will relocate my family.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #23 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm inclined to find that those who would campaign against both the HPV vaccine and safe-sex education in schools are criminally responsible for any disease transmissions and deaths that result from that combination.

BR what if there was one company who made the vac shot and paid off gov't leaders.

What if the company who made the shot was Microsoft?

What if the company who made the shot was Halliburton?

What if the company who made the shot was (fill in the blank)

If it is going to be ordered or mandated by our overlords then for God's sake let there be competition in the marketplace for there to be a choice.

I am for Choice.

When we allow something like this in the name of health or safety I I am deeply concerned about the slippery slope sheep will allow from greedy corporations married to bought off politicians.

RFID tags next?

I am dead serious.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #24 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Vioxx is a left-wing drug? Merck is a left-wing giant pharmaceutical corporation?

I do think Fellowhip has a point that pharmaceutical companies have so much money and that money infects the system in subtle, and maybe not-so-subtle ways. Well-done analyses show that studies funded by drug companies tend to favor the company's own drug. We are oversold new drugs that don't have advantages over older (and therefore cheaper) drugs. Money is spent on finding new drugs that will cost more but aren't necessary. And Americans are overcharged for drugs relative to other countries, and our executive branch has promised to veto legislation permitting our government to bargain with drug companies. It all adds up to big profits for them but not-so-good medicine for us.


Thank you. I really appreciate your post.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #25 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

When we allow something like this in the name of health or safty I I am deeply concerned about the slippery slope sheep will allow from greedy corporations married to bought off politicians.

Fellows, you seem to deeply deeply discount the fact that a mandatory HPV vaccine actually *is* tremendously beneficial health-wise. It's kind of like opposing defibrillators because they get their energy from polluting energy sources.... Really missing the point and putting so many girls at risk here.
post #26 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Fellows, you seem to deeply deeply discount the fact that a mandatory HPV vaccine actually *is* tremendously beneficial health-wise. It's kind of like opposing defibrillators because they get their energy from polluting energy sources.... Really missing the point and putting so many girls at risk here.

Let me try to be clear here Shawn. I can indeed see the benefit of this vac.

I just want some choice.

At minimum a choice in the manufacturer of the shot.

Is choice a bad thing?

I am also against rule by decree. Is Rick Perry trying to be like Hugo Chavez?

This was not allowed to be considered by the texas legislature.

Executive order. This to me seems strange in a democracy

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #27 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Let me try to be clear here Shawn. I can indeed see the benefit of this vac.

I just want some chice.

At minimum a choice in the manufacturer of the shot.

Is choice a bad thing?

I am also against rule by decree. Is Rick Perry trying to be like Hugo Chavez?

This was not allowed to be considered by the texas legislature.

Executive order. This to me seems strange in a democracy

Fellowship

Why does choice matter so much that we shouldn't mandate the vaccine until we have more producers? You're putting girls at risk with each day that goes by without a mandatory requirement. I don't understand.
post #28 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Why does choice matter so much that we shouldn't mandate the vaccine until we have more producers? You're putting girls at risk with each day that goes by without a mandatory requirement. I don't understand.

You put unborn children at risk when you abort them ShawnJ

So get off your high horse

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #29 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Why does choice matter so much that we shouldn't mandate the vaccine until we have more producers? You're putting girls at risk with each day that goes by without a mandatory requirement. I don't understand.

"Why does choice matter"

You have lost all capacity to understand freedom and liberty.

You deserve a dictator to rule your life.

Fellowshp
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #30 of 95
...you're better than that Dale.

I really don't know why when one company-- apparently the only company that has an HPV vaccine-- is able to save so many lives by having states mandate its use-- I really don't know why we have to wait for more women to die so we can satisfy some abstract "choice" concern.

I don't get the calculus.
post #31 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

...you're better than that Dale.

I really don't know why when one company-- apparently the only company that has an HPV vaccine-- is able to save so many lives by having states mandate its use-- I really don't know why we have to wait for more women to die so we can satisfy some abstract "choice" concern.

I don't get the calculus.

I can appreciate your view here.

I do not actually believe you deserve to live your life ruled by a dictator.

I just wish Shawn that you could show an inch worth of understanding in my concerns for this mandate.

I think I put them out clearly. But all you do is completely dismiss them all without even a "well I see your point" sort of comment.

I think that is if nothing else either arrogant or lazy of you.

Again I can appreciate your view that a government force people to take this shot.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #32 of 95
Thread Starter 
Shawn Let me ask...

Not sure you will think about this and actually answer but let me ask anyway.

What if a study found that if the Government shut down all McDonalds we could save 45,000 lives a year that otherwise would be slated to premature deaths due to heart disease from foods consumed at McDonalds.

If that study was found to be sound and accurate should the government wait even a day to impose the shutdown of McDonalds?

I mean the idea here is that we are reducing the numbers of deaths here right?

Anything goes? no?

I mean it is not like the people who used to eat at McDonalds could not start to eat Salads.

And the workers at McDonalds can find other better jobs No? Yes?

Please address this.

I want to see if you have any intellectual honesty to you or just empty arguments for debate sake which it seems at times.

Please forgive me if I am wrong about this.

Because if saving lives is your gig then you would have McDonalds shut in less than one day.

Forget Freedom.

In the name of health..

Right? or Wrong?

Please reply to this in depth. If you do not I will completely understand...

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #33 of 95
Fellowship, I agree on some points but disagree on others.

First of all, lets say 99% of physicians think the vaccine will save lives with no drawbacks, just like polio vaccine. Then I think you would agree that it should eventually be mandatory.

But I agree, that some governor of some state shouldn't just be making quick decisions for everyone. That is dangerous. There should be extensive public debate before this goes into law, no matter how "obvious" it is that it is a good idea.

But you keep making dumb analogies. Getting a mandatory shot might involve giving up a little piece of freedom, but there is little practical loss. Giving up McDonald's food or automobiles requires a tremendous loss of choice in your everyday life. Getting a shot is a one time thing that takes 15 minutes. There is no PRACTICAL loss off freedom, just a PHILOSOPHICAL one. It's like if the government said you couldn't wear purple polka dot dresses on Tuesdays. No one would really mind but it is just the idea of the restriction that is the bad part.
post #34 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Shawn Let me ask...

Not sure you will think about this and actually answer but let me ask anyway.

What if a study found that if the Government shut down all McDonalds we could save 45,000 lives a year that otherwise would be slated to premature deaths due to heart disease from foods consumed at McDonalds.

If that study was found to be sound and accurate should the government wait even a day to impose the shutdown of McDonalds?

I mean the idea here is that we are reducing the numbers of deaths here right?

Anything goes? no?

I mean it is not like the people who used to eat at McDonalds could not start to eat Salads.

And the workers at McDonalds can find other better jobs No? Yes?

Please address this.

I want to see if you have any intellectual honesty to you or just empty arguments for debate sake which it seems at times.

Please forgive me if I am wrong about this.

Because if saving lives is your gig then you would have McDonalds shut in less than one day.

Forget Freedom.

In the name of health..

Right? or Wrong?

Please reply to this in depth. If you do not I will completely understand...

Fellows

I've always supported restrictions on fast-food companies...

I remember even driving 50 miles to see Super Size Me the day after a 2nd degree sunburn that burned the hair off a small patch of my thighs.
post #35 of 95
I don't support 'dictatorship' vaccination without choice, but I do agree that this is an issue mainly because of the 'stoning of sexual crimes' problem.

Did you know that there is a very exciting cure for most cancers on the horizon in a chemical called dichloroacetate, yet the major stumbling block is that it is non-patentable. Its a very old drug that is known to be safe in humans - because it has been used most of this century to treat other things.

Also the clubbers drug Ketamine. You can give it to the most suicidal of people and it sorts them out in 'hours' and lasts about a month per shot. Why are we wasting time with drugs like prozac? and the like...

...money.
post #36 of 95
They have discovered that cervical cancer is being caused by a virus, to not want a love one to be protected from this killer is assanine,idiotic,stupid and Neocon. I use to run a allergy & immunization clinic so this needed to be said. People are so stupid. Science people Science.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #37 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I've always supported restrictions on fast-food companies...

I remember even driving 50 miles to see Super Size Me the day after a 2nd degree sunburn that burned the hair off a small patch of my thighs.

Watching a movie is nice I saw that movie also.

But I see you did not answer my question.

Do we mandate Health and safety by shutting down McDonalds if we knew we could save 45,000 lives a year in doing so?

I just wonder where we draw the lines of what we mandate to save a life.

Who is the "decider" and why them?

Can you address this ?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #38 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora View Post

They have discovered that cervical cancer is being caused by a virus, to not want a love one to be protected from this killer is assanine,idiotic,stupid and Neocon. I use to run a allergy & immunization clinic so this needed to be said. People are so stupid. Science people Science.

I want the science as well Aurora. Not just the brainwashed (brought to you by Merck, Ely Lilly) view of some pediatrician.

http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/05/08/07.php

I am a landlord and lease professional buildings to Doctors and I can tell you with a straight face the Big Pharma vendors take care of these doctors with sales reps and the perks that go with it all.

Just at the Hospital alone where we had our baby we met two people convinced that a preservative in "safe" vac shots caused Autism in their sons.

One lady taught our breastfeeding class and had to perform infant CPR on her son once after receiving one vac as he had turned purple and stopped breathing and second about 11 months later after another vac shot infant CPR again and now her son has high level autism.

Later on after the birth of Oliver we went down the hall at the hospital to where they process the paperwork for his Social Security number.

This lady in that office told a similar story about her autistic son and how she lives with her mother to raise her son as the father left due to the strain of raising children with this condition.

I have worked with about 60 families ( just in my area ) who have autistic children and attribute it to just after vac shots were given to their children.

These parents use products by Kirkman Labs such as Gaba and other supplements to help to deal with the problems autistic children have.

There is also re-patterning therapy which runs from $75,000 - $100,000 a year to help bring back these children from the grips of Autism.

So for God's sake allow some education and choice for parents.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #39 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post


I have worked with about 60 families ( just in my area ) who have autistic children and attribute it to just after vac shots were given to their children.

These parents use products by Kirkman Labs such as Gaba and other supplements to help to deal with the problems autistic children have.

There is also re-patterning therapy which runs from $75,000 - $100,000 a year to help bring back these children from the grips of Autism.

So for God's sake allow some education and choice for parents.

Fellowship

we had a big scandal of that Jab that was linked to autism, personally I wouldn't want to give it to anyone, and I don't believe a single word a pharma company would tell me.

Pharma companies, their lobby groups, their sponsored research, and focus groups have nothing to do with the well being of patients and everything to do with selling you a bunch of crap you do not need.
post #40 of 95
Oh god? Not the whole "autism vs vaccination" troupe.

Someone one time told me at the Quickie Mart that he rented a house to someone that had to do autistic CPR on their kid 4.2 seconds after getting a shot that the doctor was paid millions from Big Pharma to kill children.


With such proof how could I doubt it.
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