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AstroBiology (beware!)

post #1 of 50
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By strange coincidence I recently came across 2 entirely seperate articles pertaining to the same thing, one is the book The Mayan Prophecies, the other came from NewScientist in this article (I'll get the article if you want to read it and cant log in)

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...-bad-sign.html
article repeated here
http://www.thecivicplatform.com/2007...ad-sign/print/

"THE star you were born under influences the person you become. Not something you expect to hear from scientists but, incredibly, it seems to be true. There is firm evidence that the time of year you are born affects not just your personality, but also your health, specifically your chances of developing serious mental illness. But don't expect to find clues in your horoscopes. The star in question is the star we were all born under - the sun"

Of course, the article in NS is mostly about (mental) illness and diseases caused by conception and birthdays because of the varying amount of sun, but far more interesting to me, is what I read in the Mayan Prophecies book.

"When the sun is very active it generates large numbers of sun-spots and these in turn cause large numbers of charged particles to be thrown into space. This means that there are clouds of charged particles between the sun and the Earth and there is a thickening of the van-allen belts"

what this means is that during periods of high solar activity, we on Earth are better shielded from highly charged cosmic radiation, while when the sun is not active we get zapped. I know this is against initial common sense, the point is in the fact that high activity produces clouds of particles that protect us from a zapping.

So, what does it matter if we get zapped?

Well, the researcher found several interesting things. Firstly let me say that it was possible to extrapolate backwards in time to find periods of (average) high and low zappings, therefore sunspot activity, because this causes a change in the Carbon14 in the atmosphere, which is then locked into various mechanisms in the earth - tree rings - ice cores etc...

What was found was thus - during the past 6000 years, the history of civilization - periods of low zappings (on average) correlate with the rise of sophisticated civilization, and high zappings (on average) correlate with their fall.

The book goes on to report the findings of the scientist Cotterell. Purpotedly he found a link between the polarity of the solar wind and the earths magnetic field and how it effects various human behaviors on Earth.

For instance, he claims to have found a link between monthly solar activity and the production of melatonin and fertility..(which is also similarly claimed in NS this month). The monthly solar activity is because the sun spins also once every 26 days, but because we are moving around the sun, we experience it as a 28 day cycle. This causes many cycles of magnetivity and particle-ism to occur, not just a monthly one, there is a quarterly one, and more and correlates with psychological evidence of personality traits, for instance introversion and extrovertion (on a monthly scale). Further than that, this psychological profiling built into our characters is caused by the sun, because it effects our hormones and development, and that of our mothers during conception and pregnancy, and also effects our birth - monthly - with a 4 cycle per year repeat - as is claimed by astrologers.... Earth, Air, Fire, Water etc...and as has been reported in NS.

Could it be that while astrology IS a pile of steaming.....in regards to the fact that the movements of the planets through zodiacal signs is clearly ridiculous, but that the modus operandi of astrologers was produced because of a misunderstanding of the causes of the cycles...Its not the planets etc that produce the effects astrologers claim, but the cycles of the sun - as is scientifically verified. Sun cycles, magnetic fields, charged particles, seasons, aren't scientific mumbo-jumbo, but very much reality - and if this reality effects us on Earth, (we know it does in so many ways) then we have a very good scientific explanation of many things that were previously explained by kooky old women - and certain things explained by religions - the vast majority of them being based on sun-worship.

The mayan thing is especially interesting, because not only was it apparently a sun-based religion - but in that they also (allegedly) knew of these magnetic and solar cycles and mini-cycles - and a cycle long enough to declare that they were living in a 5th age, 4 previous ages coming to a violent end - enough to cause them to end their own calender (of the 5th age) in 2012, when they expected some serious jiggery pokery with the suns magnetic field.

We used to be a much more religiously motivated society in ancient times, obviously science has changed that a bit, but also the Earth Magnetism is fading, quite rapidly im told, due for a reversal at some point in the future, as has happened many times in the past. When you get to the crux of religious superstition, it must be because nature was highly variable and its mechanisms were not scientifically understandable by the ancients. So is it any suprise then that the most influential of natural phenomena - the sun - was taken as the highest 'God'? and worshipped. Especially if the ancients knew that the sun caused far more destruction or changes in personality than we give them credit for today or will scientifically recognise.

We are also in a period of low sunspot activity - meaning we are getting zapped more by cosmic rays (perhaps were more prone to going doolally) - is this the start of the fall of our civilizations after a period of good growth, the latter of 20th century certainly gave us everything we know (more than any other time in history) - is it then a suprise to find that sun-spots have been higher than average over the last 50 years then ever before? - thus protecting us from cosmic zappings enough to build our great modern civilizations, but its possibly going very wrong this century - i would say down to our own fault - and that a period of expected low sun-spot activity if realized will tip our civilization over the edge, as it has done for many other great civilizations. For instance there was a period of great "zapping" in the 4th and 8th centuries - did this help bring down the Roman Empire and put an end to the Maya?

Certainly if being 'zapped' causes fundamental changes in peoples persona, and turns them psychotic, unfertile (fertility rates are falling) or sheepy then civilizations will fall if it effects everyone's personality to some degree and especially if the civilization already has 'problems'.

This area is a new one for me, and as yet I havn't looked into many of the claims to verify them, so they're given in good faith that its not a hoax or joke - that the article appears in last months NS, probably means there is something in it - I could go on for quite some time, but I wont waste any more time if no-one wants to talk about this....
post #2 of 50
Fecundity rates are falling.

Fertility rates aren't legitimately tested.
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post #3 of 50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Fecundity rates are falling.

Fertility rates aren't legitimately tested.

thats what I meant! the effect is the same - lower births, higher mortality.

As i find evidence to back up or counter the claims of the authors (im not claiming anything btw - I know very little, the topic is for open discussion to those who might be interested)

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publ...000_years.html
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...jan_solcon.htm

The mayan calender was created supposedly around a very complex solar cycle system, and ends in 2012, while science is predicting this

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...ec_cycle24.htm
"
I don't recall the start of the 80's, but here is a graph, http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2..._solarmyth.htm

I remember that the start of the 90's led to the first iraq war, and the start of this century soon led to another iraq war. Im not claiming any relation - you'd need to study much more data, but what im suggesting for discussion, is that there is possibly a link between solar activities and human behavior that exists far more than we currently imagine - and it is this cause and effect that influences our conduct, behavior, thoughts and thinking (infact how we operate) far more than we currently imagine.

For instance, I found this on economic cycles - is our 'thinking' and conduct influenced so much that it pushes us en-mass to make economic decisions?

https://ep.eur.nl/handle/1765/8216

"On the basis of a 5 and 11 year cycle present in the Dutch Gross Domestic Product (GDP) a long term forecast model is developed" which approximately is the average cycle of solar peak and trough activity"

"Multiple cycle structures are shown in various macro-economic variables from the United Kingdom, the United States of America and the Netherlands" - which are all roughly the same latitude and have similar climates - thus exposure to the sun
post #4 of 50
I haven't done any research to support my opinions, but I honestly believe that the sun affects our behavior as well as other planets and stars. Not in the way astrology claims, but somewhat like that. My thinking is this: radiation has been proven to change stuff in our bodies and do other things. Stars radiate a lot, and other elements and materials radiate some. To me, it's only logical to assume this radiation from the sun and other stars can affect us. I figure planets play a role in this by partially shielding us from this radiation.

All of this is really interesting. Especially the bit about the 28 day sun cycle. I didn't know that. It seems as if a lot of things happen in 28 day cycles. Major ones being the Moon (27.32 days or 29.53 days depending on how you're looking at it) and of course the menstrual cycle.
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post #5 of 50
um... it is all bullshit. (and marcuk knows it).

the menstural cycle isn't actually set from individual to individual... etc etc etc.
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post #6 of 50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

um... it is all bullshit. (and marcuk knows it).

Absolutely not. And I dont know it.

What your problem is I assume - is that I have inserted the word "Astrology" in there and immediately narrow-minded people turn off - because they think im - or the topic - is some new age shite.

Let me make it clear I dont 'believe' or practise Astrology - I have no interest in furthering Astrological practice - because IMO it is utter RUBBISH - in the context of what it is commonly taken to be.

However, astrology, tarot cards, reading the stones - IS NOT RUBBISH in the sense that it is an ancient form of psychological self-help to those who understand 'how' it works. You wouldn't rubbish someone who sought out a psychologist or therapist for helping them come to terms with thier life, yet is there much difference?

For instance my friend, who is a wiccan and does tarot, stones, etc isn't in the slightest wierd or eccentric or whatever your common misunderstanding of 'witches' is.

I know that she desperately wants to start a family, and for biological reasons this is not possible. Obviously this has had a major impact on her both consciously and subconsciously, and to help herself come to terms with it, she has found an outlet to channel some of her subconscious emotions.

She doesn't 'really' think (i hope) that placing a doll in the window of the spare room with a pin in it, is going to produce this child any more than you or I do, but she did it (or something like this - as best I can remember) because it helped her come to terms with a subconscious emotion. It helped her express a subconscious emotion consciously and provided a kind of therapy to deal with this.

Is that any different than praying? Praying fundamentally doesn't and wont work. But if the person praying believes it will help, then it is possible that the prayer is nothing more than a form of self-help of bringing subconscious thoughts to the conscious self so that they can be addressed.

Go to a psychologist for a problem and exactly the same thing happens. They will help you bring subconscious thoughts to light, so that you can understand the issue that is effecting you and then you can begin to deal with it.

When I go round and do the tarot - Im not overwhelmed with the feeling of defrauding my friend when I do it because I know its fundamentally a pile of crock. Im helping her express unconscious thoughts so that she may deal with them. IMO tarot cards, rune stones, astrology is vague by design - not because its just stupid and someone is pulling a fast one over you to look clever, but because they are designed in a way to help you look into your subconscious and bring forth whatever is 'your' problem so that you can deal with it. Everyone has a different problem - its no good having a very discript card for dealing with the emotion of not being able to get pregnant, because few people have this problem. There would be so many cards or stones, the chances of you pulling out the correct one for your issue is slight, and the chance of pulling out a card completely irrelavent is high. The cards are written so that whatever cards you pull, will make you tap into 'your' specific problem so that you can deal with it. You pull a few cards (5) for a specific reason, so that with the differing 'vague' combinations you can look at your problem from a different way each time, hopefully if it is put to you from various angles, eventually you will hit a combination that will prompt you to really feel what the issue is.

This is no different than going to see a therapist for the same problem. Doing that is not going to get you pregnant, its a channel to deal with the emotional consequence of being infertile. When all is said and done, if my friend is to get pregnant, she knows her best chance is IVF as do we all. Therapy, astrology, praying is an outlet for dealing with an issue so that it doesn't consume you.

Therefore astrology, tarot etc, is interesting and a scientifically valid persuit for the interested, because it is a form of psychology. However I do not think in the slightest that if Mars in in Aries, there is some fundamental cosmic mystery force in this that has an effect over your life. As it is with praying to God. God doesn't exist to my knowledge - but that God might 'exist' as a form of self-help psychology if you have a problem and believe that praying to 'God' will help. Neither would anyone with a functioning brain cell.
post #7 of 50
Thread Starter 
Now, Astrology is interesting, because everything happens in 'cycles'. Yearly, monthly, daily or longer (such as sun-spots).

If you were an 'ancient' being aware of these cycles (that cannot be denied) but not fully understanding how or why they were produced, you would probably mistakingly attribute them to the positions of stars and planets in the sky - because these do change precisely to correspond with the cycles you are experiencing, but they do not 'cause' these effects as we obviously now know. - they are a happy coincidence recording the effects of them, not the cause.

Its obvious the Earths rotation around the sun is the 'cause' of pretty much all the natural cycles we experience on Earth, and lets not forget, that humans are animals that evolved under these cycles for billions of years, therefore to claim that we are not part of this system is purely ridiculous and ignorant.

Animals 'know' 'feel' and depend on these cycles - the seasons - magnetic fields - etc. This is scientific fact, not hocus-pocus. We are animals in the same system and we know that the Sun is the cause of many regulations of human behaviour - again scientific fact.

However because we have evolved better adaptations to our environment - consciousness, intelligence, etc, it is likely that these are better for us than relying on magnetic fields, or sun-cycles to guide our lives. But we are still the product of billions of years of evolution where life was far more influenced by magnetism and solar cycles, and our recent adaptations, consciousness and intelligence are a blink in the eye in the evolutionary timescale.

Therefore - should we really expect our subconscious operation is completely devoid of billions of years of unconscious evolution just because we have developed better adaptations? I think not. I think that these recent adaptations to our environment have only supressed billions of years of evolution, because these are better adaptations to survive our environment.

The key word here is 'suppressed'. As we are biologically close to all life here on Earth, there is no reason to suspect that we are 'special' and 'devoid' of being unnaffected by the natural environment in exactly the same way that every other species of life on Earth is - because we are as they are with the exception of 'consciousness'

Now, the Maya, getting back to the original post, were (allegedly) well aware of the magnetism and influences of the sun cycles, enough to base their highly complex calendar on many aspects of the sun that we have only just 'rediscovered' in the last 100 years. They did this 2000 years ago.

I do not for an instance, think the world is going to end in 2012. This thread is nothing about doomsday scenarios or new age hippy scaremongering.

It is about appreciating the sophistication of ancient civilizations, pondering about how it could be entirely possible for them to know such things, and about the psychology and effects on human subconsciousness from the knowledge they purpotedly had and that we are only just beginning to realize, which I appreciated touches on things that most people would instantly dismiss as cranky.
post #8 of 50
there is no evidence to suggest that human's change behavior in cyclical fashions that are extra-body except for the obvious sun. there is no evolutionary pressure which would select for such behavior changes. there are no obvious or even subtle ways that the cycles of anything really would effect year by year personalities. SOME animals may detect the magnetic field, but they don't detect changes. MOST animals do not sense the earth's magnetic field. period end of story... this is just intelligent people trying to broadcast a rational on the cyclic hypotheses of ancient and scared civilizations...
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post #9 of 50
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Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

there is no evidence to suggest that human's change behavior in cyclical fashions that are extra-body except for the obvious sun. there is no evolutionary pressure which would select for such behavior changes. there are no obvious or even subtle ways that the cycles of anything really would effect year by year personalities. SOME animals may detect the magnetic field, but they don't detect changes. MOST animals do not sense the earth's magnetic field. period end of story... this is just intelligent people trying to broadcast a rational on the cyclic hypotheses of ancient and scared civilizations...

there are a whole host of human behaviors that are effected because of cyclical changes in the sun. Every living thing on Earth has evolved to run in sync with the sun and its cycles. Thats a fact.

We know cosmic rays are particularly bad for biological systems, go and irradiate yourself in them and you will find a rapid change in your behavior and thinking. You will become very ill. Now its not the case if there is an 11 year cycle in sun-spots, because it is known to be fact. During the peak, a lot less cosmic rays hit us here on Earth, during a trough, which we are in now, we are all being irradiated more by cosmic rays. Im not suggesting were all going to die of radiation sickness in a period of no sunspots. Its subtle (obviously), but it is fact that we experience more cosmic damage to our biological system during this time than when sun-spot activity is peaking. This could have a small and subtle effect on behavior if a human is sensitized to this damage.

As is stated in the NS article, such subtle things dont really affect healthy people to any noticable degree, but it is shown that if you are predisposed to an illness, solar cycles can make the difference. Not just to you, but any offspring you have, and by that nature (of genetic transmission) your offspring are more likely to possess a genetic makeup similar to your own, thus predetermining their own behavior at conception and future susceptibility to illness.

It is known through studies, that sun-spots can completely die out for hundreds of years. Therefore besides the obvious effect last seen - that it caused a mini ice age - it is likely that there is a prolonged period where biological systems on earth are exposed to greater amounts of cosmic radiation. Fine if youre a healthy human, probably not so good if you are a bit sickly or prone to illness - that might tip the susceptable over the edge. It might be bad news for your civilization if this period of higher than average illness (mental and physical) extends for several hundred years.

It is postulated by the author of this book (not me) that these periods of low sun-spots also correspond to the fall of otherwise great civilizations. Civilization seems to be a finely balanced thing as far as I can see. It doesn't take much to tip the balance between prosperity and slow decline. And that is what we are talking about - slow decline.

Growth or recession? there isn't much between the two really - its a finely balanced thing as we see all to often. It doesn't take the actions of more than a few percent of the populace to change growth into recession. Its all to easy. If that recession sticks around for a few hundred years, your civilization is over.

Could that be caused by a subtle change in the general sickness and behavior of the susceptible in a civilization. The author seems to think there is a correlation, and I am inclined to believe his reasoning at least makes sense.

The mayan calendar started right in the middle of a major trough of activity from the sun. They believed this was the start of their existance. Coincidence - probably not, their calendar was syncronised to many aspects of solar activity, that we are only just beginning to understand. Maybe they didn't understand the mechanics of sun-spots and magnetic reversals, but they certainly seemed to understand the effects of it and charted these periodic cycles very accurately.

Im also researching info on magnetism and biology, I think this sounds interesting.

http://www.championtrees.org/yarrow/magnbio.htm

"Fourth, Moscow Institute of Neurophysiology found magnetism creates all sorts of brain biochemistry changes. Soviet research suggests a center in the brain is a magnetic receptor, and animal brains are permanently changed by magnetism. Dr. Robert Becker says electromagnetism has profound effect on behavior and biocycles, and the main mechanisms for this are in the nervous system. I am thinking pineal and pituitary, due to their high cobalt content and integral role in the limbic system."

http://space.newscientist.com/articl...magnetism.html

"Many creatures, including some birds, amphibians and reptiles, navigate by sensing tiny changes in the Earth's magnetic field. Sea turtles, for instance, can sense changes as small as a tenth of a microteslaless than 0.2 per cent of the typical geomagnetic field."

http://space.newscientist.com/articl...d=PBHCHAHFDEDM
post #10 of 50
Every argument I have heard from people who BELIEVE this connection have been hypothetical and vague. There is absolutely NO evidence to support any of it. Cosmic ray output does not increase significantly enough to cause any additional increase in "damage".

The only observed effect on biological entities due to the 11 year cycle is increased growth of algae probably due to lower cloud cover.
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post #11 of 50
Marc, I think your information is very interesting.

I'd like to read the sources you have linked; but even without doing so, I would be inclined to give a certain credence to some of these possibilities.

Please don't be discouraged that your information is not greeted at this site with open-minded interest. It's a shame really, but it has been that way for some time, and I doubt if that tendency will be changing anytime soon.

By virtue of their closed minds, those people will inevitably miss out on some of the more fascinating mysteries that some of us have 'sensed', but that science has yet to unravel.
Much have I seen and known...yet all experience is an arch, wherethrough gleams that untravelled world whose margin fades forever and forever when I move. - Tennyson
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post #12 of 50
Carol, as usual you are full of shit.

They aren't even scientifically observed phenomena -- no amount of "but I sense" it means anything when it cannot be confirmed objectively.

They quite literally exist only in yours and other crack pot's heads...
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post #13 of 50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Carol, as usual you are full of shit.

They aren't even scientifically observed phenomena -- no amount of "but I sense" it means anything when it cannot be confirmed objectively.

They quite literally exist only in yours and other crack pot's heads...

Except that everything I have stated here IS scientifically observed phenomena - the issue is that it hasn't been formally accepted that in certain circumstances a+b+c+d leads to "e".

I'm asking the question and saying 'take a look at this' because im not sure, but I think it stacks up.

But this thread is turning ridiculous because were not discussing the consequences and possibilities of "e" - Im having to explain terms the simple terms a,b,c,d to someone who frankly should know better.

Sun-Spots - Fact
Solar Cycles - Fact
Solar Radiation - Fact
Cosmic Radiation - Fact
Evolution - Fact
Biochemistry - Fact
BioMagnetism - Fact
Psychology - Fact
Astrology - Fact
Seasonal effects modify and change human behavior - Fact
Mayan Calendar - Fact
Fall of Civilization - Fact

Hypothesis that all the above are related and connected under certain circumstances - Up for discussion.
post #14 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Cosmic ray output does not increase significantly enough to cause any additional increase in "damage".


Cosmic rays, X class solar flares (and the lack of them) severely disrupt the Earths magnetic field and have vast environmental consequences on Earth. - Fact.

The Earths magnetic field has been rapidly decreasing in strength for nearly 200 years - Fact.

The next cycle of solar activity is predicted to occur in 2011/2012 and to be the strongest for 400 years - Fact

The trough of solar activity we are in at the moment is actually much higher than normal for a trough period - Fact

Interestingly, the second cycle of solar activity expected in 2022 is far far lower than normal and the last time this happened for a prolonged period we entered an ice age - Fact

Had the Maya experienced this or had knowledge of this and recorded this and produced a calendar to predict seriously damaging effects of a long term solar cycle and its consequences - Up for discussion

Am I suggesting or believe the world is going to end in 2012 - No.
Am I suggesting or believe we should all turn to Astrology to predict the future - No - infact exactly the opposite
post #15 of 50
Jesus, hardee, who pissed in your wheaties this morning? You sound like those who 50 years ago laughed at the idea that medicine could come out of a plant... and yet now isolation of pharmaceuticals from natural sources is a multi-billion dollar research field. And no, before you jump to more conclusions, I'm not talking about the herbal remedy market, but 'legitimate' medical research.

Just because you don't agree with an erroneous causality doesn't mean that the casual correlations are to be tossed out the window without further inspection. Science means thinking rationally, not just tossing crap out because it doesn't meet *your* preconceptions, any more than because it meets those of some astrologer in a pointy hat.

If you're going to start claiming that it's all bullshit, please provide some studies with proper results. Otherwise, you're no better than those in the pointy hats claiming crap without corroborating data.

Go back and read what MarcUK actually wrote. Interesting tidbits, no vast conspiracy.
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post #16 of 50
The fact is that there are no shown causal correlations of the solar cycles to anything regarding the personalities of people.

What MarcUK is citing are 'facts' from which people, like carol, get ideas that their attitudes are insurmountably entangled with the stars. which happens to be utter bullshit.

and mark, what the fuck does the mayan calendar have to do with anything? The cycles some mayan astronomers found are strongly suggestive of planetary motions observable in a human lifetime (or two), but they neither observed nor commented upon any solar fluctuations as far as we know.

The mayans also killed everyone born on the last days of the year, just because it was an uneven time... are we really so doff as to not understand that what the mayans did was excellent algebra of easily observed phenomena?
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post #17 of 50
Look.

Solar cycles clearly operate on an environmental level, but not in such nice tight cycles as either the mayans or modern astronomers have derived. The little ice age, the big ice ages, our current warming trend are probably all due in some part to natural and more than likely unpredictable solar cycles. The mayans used algebra to predict the movement of cosmic objects, the sun isn't so simple. it is more than likely a chaotic system that has at least for sun spots and solar flares an 11 year strong attractor... But cycles of this length aren't sufficient to change the way the world works, for outside of organisms that are small and have short lifetimes the effects of this cycle are negligible -- a tree doesn't care if its sun exposure is greater for two or three years etc... To do damage to a civilization you would need prolonged changes...

Interestingly, this 'discussion' has sparked a memory that the occurrence of wars in human history, fluctuations in the market, etc are all chaotic and have nice fractal distributions.
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post #18 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

The fact is that there are no shown causal correlations of the solar cycles to anything regarding the personalities of people.

rubbish - the very first thing I linked too was evidence of this

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

What MarcUK is citing are 'facts' from which people

actually I am trying to establish facts from scientific sources about already established phenomena that could be linked under certain circumstances but aren't formally acknowledged as such at the moment

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

get ideas that their attitudes are insurmountably entangled with the stars. which happens to be utter bullshit.

As you say, this attitude IS utter bullshit - as I've been saying from the start. Astrology is Utter Bullshit in the context of what it claims to be. It wouldn't be bullshit though if - as I am suggesting it is the 'coincidental' recording of effects that were mistakingly attributed to stars and planets, when infact the 'cause' of these effects is one very specific star - the sun - and the cycles it goes through both in short, medium and long term cycles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

and mark, what the fuck does the mayan calendar have to do with anything? The cycles some mayan astronomers found are strongly suggestive of planetary motions observable in a human lifetime (or two), but they neither observed nor commented upon any solar fluctuations as far as we know.

No, on simple observation the Mayan Calendar would mistakingly lead one to assume it simply records 'astrology' - on closer inspection, the Mayan Calendar used the regular cycles of planets (for instance 17 passes of Venus) to record the passages of time in regard to the consequences of long term solar events. Therefore, as is right - they had extensive calculations to predict very accurately the motions of the planets - but simple 'astrology' wasnt the prime reason for doing this - It was so they could accurately predict the cycles of solar events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

The mayans also killed everyone born on the last days of the year, just because it was an uneven time... are we really so doff as to not understand that what the mayans did was excellent algebra of easily observed phenomena?

As above. The other thing I would point out is that I totally accept the Mayan rituals are 'nasty'. As with any civilization what the 'majority' of people do is not reflective of the technology and knowledge of the civilizations 'elite'. Another way of looking at it, is that the Mayans were so scared of the suns effects they went to extraordinary lengths to appease it. Clearly that is stupid in this age, but obviously not to them. Did they know more about the Sun than we give them credit for? Possibly

Lets not forget that as far as western orthodox science goes the Earth was Flat and the Sun went around us - right until the 16th Century - some 2000 years after the Greeks had calculated the diameter of the Earth pretty accurately. We are told that Hipparchus discovered Precession - completely forgetting that the Egyptians knew of this thousands of years before. We would have it told to us that Columbus discovered the Americas - utter Tosh. What we are told - because its a happy convienient story is proving time and time again to be utter false.

Its very easy to believe the tosh we are told and proclaim ourselves masters of knowledge and understanding in this age, while all previous ages were just abunch of savages scraping an existance with ridiculous sun rituals and rain dances - Yes they did this - BUT as I've found in every religion WE ARE STILL DOING THIS TODAY!!!! Therefore it is too ignorant on our part to completely overlook the possible technologies and knowledges of previous civilization because they did some 'odd' things.

In the future - Would you study the ghetto's of the Bronx to determine whether our civilization has the technology to send probes to the furthest extent of the solar system? would you look at the poverty in India to determine whether that country had nukes? Would you look at the religion of Christianity - A solar religion little changed from the "Rites of Eleusis" - to determine we were capable of smashing sub-atomic particles together at the LHC?

What IS the difference between this sillyness and this sillyness apart from 2000 years? Is ritual therefore a good gauge of a civilizations technology?
post #19 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Look.
the sun isn't so simple. it is more than likely a chaotic system that has at least for sun spots and solar flares an 11 year strong attractor... But cycles of this length aren't sufficient to change the way the world works, for outside of organisms that are small and have short lifetimes the effects of this cycle are negligible -- a tree doesn't care if its sun exposure is greater for two or three years etc...

I agree - it is likely to have an 11 strange attractor - there are reasons for this, the sun rotates in many different cycles - the equator, poles, subsurface, core all rotate at different speeds and the convection current changes periodically, the bulge and diameter of the sun oscillates - therefore one can assume that every 11 years apx, these rotations (plotted on a graph as sinwave) would periodically cancel or reinforce eachother and cause periodic disturbances - clearly there is one every 11 years, but there are also much longer periods of sun-activity that displays itself over thousands of years

Quote:
To do damage to a civilization you would need prolonged changes...

Which is exactly what I am trying to discuss. Doh - I have said the Mayan calendar (allegedly) started smack in the middle of one of these periods of prolonged change when the world (or at least the Maya emerging from the past failed civilizations of their ancestors) suffered a 'destructive' period that caused their or previous civilizations to fail?

The Mayan civilization failed supposedly because of severe drought in their region over hundreds of years - Caused by the sun - probably - an unnormal long term cycle of the sun? Lets discuss...

Quote:
Interestingly, this 'discussion' has sparked a memory that the occurrence of wars in human history, fluctuations in the market, etc are all chaotic and have nice fractal distributions.

what if the cycles of the sun, produce this 'strange attractor' for human endevour and behavior?



here I took a graph from wiki - the blue and green lines are my projections, - clearly you can see a period of apx 200 years forming (blue)- and possibly a period of 1500 years (green) - however something has changed because the last 50 years do not fit the 200 year cycle - whats next? dotted in green is a 'guesstimate' but thats just going on the data on this graph and IM not an expert. It could easily be that we are entering a vastly different cycle from what has come before. Perhaps the 'correction' for this modern high solar activity is a major crash - indeed the sunspot cycle of 2022 is predicted to be very weak. Perhaps we've hit a bifurcation and can expect the amount of solar activity to shoot off the top of the graph...
post #20 of 50
This post was so interesting that I had to join in order to participate in the discussion.

It has finally taken an article from the NS to root out these theories/hypotheses that have been on my mind for a whole bunch of time now. I have previously looked for similar articles/research on the net and returned empty-handed.

background: Been exposed to much numerology, some chinese Bazi (four pillars of destiny) and astrology. Me, I'm a skeptic.

MarcUK, I'm glad you bring up all these points. I for one believe that the sun and its cycles somehow do effect people in some way. The chinese/indian/greek people have all observed this and it would be foolish to discount their findings just because it has yet to be proven by current science. What we really need is someone to sit down and record statistically to "prove" it.

Medicine is deemed "effective" when it works for a probably % of the people. So why shouldn't astrology/numerology be proved/disproved similarly.

I find too many "truths" and coincidences in Astrology/Numerology etc and choose to believe that it has good backing, however too much fortune telling or whatever crap that comes along with it. The concept and theory/hypotheses that stand to be proven are a great thing to look at though
post #21 of 50
Thread Starter 
The sun as we have been discussing has many periods of oscillation - as touched upon earlier, these can be viewed as sine waves - a picture is worth a thousand words -



here we have the black line as the sum of three sine waves, the sun has many more oscillations than three. It can be seen that the more oscillations you have, the greater the variance in the produced wave. We havn't been looking scientifically at the sun long enough to know what all these periods of oscillation are.

What can be easily seen from this graph, and especially if you visually extend it and add in some slow period waves - that there will be periods of vast 'normalness' followed by periods of vast variance. It isn't possible to look at a simple graph and just see what happens next. It could well be that a period of high activity is followed by a spectacular crash and period of lull.

I will try to create or find a graph to better show this
post #22 of 50
Thread Starter 


here I created a graph showing periods 1,2,3,7,27,51 of oscillation. God must love me, because I had no Idea it would illustrate my point on the first try!

I dont want to claim anything - this is just to demonstrate what 'can' happen with modes of oscillation are added.

The period I've labelled 'high' average - could be representative of the solar activity we have experienced for a few thousand years
even in this period - you still get some troughs that could be representative of a couple of hundred year of lows - that might wipe out your civilization if it appeared and depended on the average cycle being high.

The period i've labelled 'low' average - could be representative of solar activity we could expect in the next few thousand years

The crash i've labelled shows that you can have long periods of high averages followed by long periods of low averages - and there is one single defining event between them - a high peak followed by a spectacular crash - could this be where we are at the moment - looking at the graph I nicked from wiki. ?

Its a question not a statement.
post #23 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by toiletduck View Post

This post was so interesting that I had to join in order to participate in the discussion.

It has finally taken an article from the NS to root out these theories/hypotheses that have been on my mind for a whole bunch of time now. I have previously looked for similar articles/research on the net and returned empty-handed.

background: Been exposed to much numerology, some chinese Bazi (four pillars of destiny) and astrology. Me, I'm a skeptic.

MarcUK, I'm glad you bring up all these points. I for one believe that the sun and its cycles somehow do effect people in some way. The chinese/indian/greek people have all observed this and it would be foolish to discount their findings just because it has yet to be proven by current science. What we really need is someone to sit down and record statistically to "prove" it.

Medicine is deemed "effective" when it works for a probably % of the people. So why shouldn't astrology/numerology be proved/disproved similarly.

I find too many "truths" and coincidences in Astrology/Numerology etc and choose to believe that it has good backing, however too much fortune telling or whatever crap that comes along with it. The concept and theory/hypotheses that stand to be proven are a great thing to look at though

welcome, i just found this article - you might find it interesting

http://www.cfos100.com/research/excitability.php
post #24 of 50
Thread Starter 
to the interested parties - here is an overview of the book I am reading

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/mayan/
post #25 of 50
Mark... The wiki graph is chaotic, your graphs are periodic...

These cycles don't stick to the mayan algebraic projections, they just don't.

The mayan civilization had periodic crashes over its entire history -- cities would rise and fall because they destroyed the local environment by planting shittons of the crop terrible corn. All local land will have been made non-arable causing a decline in population and loss of significance.. once you do this to everywhere you can possibly live, your city state civilization becomes a substinence village civilization, which is exactly what we see. The mayans didn't disappear, they still exist, their religion still exists, they just don't build city states. It is a matter of crop usage and not solar cycles... 2012 more than likely is the edge of the mayan calendar due to perceived but uncalculated deviations from their nice algebraic models.

I strongly suggest visiting the yucatan to get a sense of exactly what happened... you can practically see it...
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post #26 of 50
What I find amusing about the first article is that it is not the sun that is the proposed cause of seasonal fluctuations of schizophrenia, but the failure of mother's to produce vitamin D -- I still think the seasonal viral infections makes the most sense. The significance of this should be clear, the sun does not predictively cause anything...
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post #27 of 50
Thread Starter 
what do you make of this hardeharhar?

http://www.mail-archive.com/nettime-.../msg01353.html

"three Israeli scientists have also found surprisingly high correlations between solar
activity and psychiatric illnesses. "

Your claim of no-scientific data to back up the assertions isn't quite right - certainly its not mainstream widely accepted Science - but it exists nonetheless and im not terribly suprised to be able to find it.

(Now if only the wacko's didn't have a total monopoly on doomsday articles related to the Maya and astrogenetics this might be a much easier task)
post #28 of 50
There is also a statistical correlation of cancer in women who while pregnant drank alcohol.

There is no (real) causative connection just a statistical one, and one which disappears when you consider the size of the database you are looking at...

I don't think these israeli scientist discovered anything... they did some database trolling and got connections that they WERE LOOKING FOR...
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post #29 of 50
.....
post #30 of 50
I think there are some interesting brain foodstuff there, thanks MarcUK. However, personally, I have been through a whole range of complex abstract thinking and magick and spirituality and medical issues in the past 5 years. I can't grasp the absolutism of a certain point of view, but I appreciate the arguments presented and take it into consideration in my global/universal abstract existential ponderings. I like the sense of mystery about things though, that's kinda cool.
post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

There is also a statistical correlation of cancer in women who while pregnant drank alcohol.

There is no (real) causative connection just a statistical one, and one which disappears when you consider the size of the database you are looking at...

I don't think these israeli scientist discovered anything... they did some database trolling and got connections that they WERE LOOKING FOR...

Wait... so they formed a hypothesis, looked for evidence pro/con, formed a statistical model that showed strong casual correlation, and got it published in a peer reviewed journal.

You're absolutely right, that's *nothing* like science.
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post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

Wait... so they formed a hypothesis, looked for evidence pro/con, formed a statistical model that showed strong casual correlation, and got it published in a peer reviewed journal.

You're absolutely right, that's *nothing* like science.

No Kickaha.

Causal correlation?

hardly.

They showed a correlation. But what does that mean? Nothing. It is database trolling. Alcohol consumption while pregnant and cancer shows a strong correlation. Is it causal? hell no.

So enough with the bullshit already, ok? Database trolling does not give causitive data. It gives correlations that mean essentially nothing.
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post #33 of 50
The defense of this bullshit as a science is laughable by people who will go out of their way attacking ID.
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post #34 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

What I find amusing about the first article is that it is not the sun that is the proposed cause of seasonal fluctuations of schizophrenia, but the failure of mother's to produce vitamin D -- I still think the seasonal viral infections makes the most sense. The significance of this should be clear, the sun does not predictively cause anything...

and how is vitamin D produced??? :doh
post #35 of 50
There are other sources of vitamin D, marc which are MORE significant than sunlight.
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post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

No Kickaha.

Causal correlation?

Reread what I said.

CAREFULLY this time.

Casual. Not causal.

Now, would you like to reconsider your comments?

Reading comprehension is fundamental, kids!
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post #37 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

There are other sources of vitamin D, marc which are MORE significant than sunlight.

essentially what the NS article is conveying is this.

People who are borderline 'infertile' or borderline 'genetically challenged' to put it 'politically correctly' are more likely to get pregnant during the summer months - because they are expending less energy because life is easier during this time and this tips them into being fertile or 'more fertile' - therefore these people are birthing in late winter - thus the 'problematic' genetic traits they possess are passed on to their offspring - so there will be a greater number of say schitzophrenics born in late winter than the rest of the year. It isn't saying that everyone born in late winter is schitzo - its saying that there is increased likelyhood.

The mechanism is there, its known to be fact (genetics) the reasoning IS sensible and data collected appears to correlate this hypothesis - therefore the SUN IS a major factor in determining the character of these people. Not everyone - but a significant enough number of them to make the connection.

You may disagree, but there is nothing voodoo about the hypothesis or the data. The sun can affect the personality of people through their genetics.

This being established - one can wonder considering how important the Sun is to life on Earth, that there are more solar/biological/genetic connections that we might discover. I believe I have seen evidence to say 'Yes' this is a possibility.

If for instance a mechanism is discovered that can subtly alter the genetics of a person/foetus conceiving/ed on a monthly basis - maybe the periodic rotation of the sun being 28days thus we are exposed to a huge periodic rotating magnet per month AND IT IS KNOWN THAT MAGNETS CAN AFFECT BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS - then you might have a scientific way of understanding some peoples personality - if you could show that people born in (say) march* are displaying a tendancy to be (say) more likely to be 'artistic' or 'agressive' than average - and you would have a scientific model for understanding why so many cultures have ERRONEOUSLY attributed these traits to astrology or the positioning of planets.

*of course, this would be a massive oversimplification - because the suns rotations do not divide equally into a year, so any trait discovered in March one year would slowly drift out of line in the next year and the error would accumulate so that in a decade or so, the March trait would appear in February or April. Thus if it could be shown scientifically to be making a statistical difference - you would PROVE that Astrology IS a load of bollocks.
post #38 of 50
Thread Starter 
After some 'grief' I have managed to find a link that explains how it would be possible for Solar rotation and magnetism to effect biological systems

click the next button at the top of the page to progress.

http://uk.msnusers.com/Astrostuff/sh...hoto&PhotoID=7

I dont know if this is true, somewhat true, false or complete bullshit. Take it with an open mind and a large pinch of salt. Take it as you find it. Bear in mind that this is ultimately attempting to explain a 'tendancy' - not a trait or fact for every person alive.

Personally, I think it 'possible' that it is "somewhat true", I dont see anything voodoo here. - though I think there are errors - for instance I outlined one above - that this tendancy should in theory 'drift' because the suns rotation period of 28 days does not divide equally into a year of 365.24 days.

Also as we are talking about periods of 28 days - Modern astrology is completely wrong (as you would expect) because there are 13 periods of 28 days in a year with 1.24 days remaining . This is obviously an error or overlook on the part of this book - and one wonders if infact, the older calendars/astrological systems that had 13 months are indeed more correct.
post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

Reread what I said.

CAREFULLY this time.

Casual. Not causal.

Now, would you like to reconsider your comments?

Reading comprehension is fundamental, kids!

Minor early morning dislyexia... You can't seriously suggest you wouldn't make a similar mistake.

Regardless my point stands.
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post #40 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

After some 'grief' I have managed to find a link that explains how it would be possible for Solar rotation and magnetism to effect biological systems

click the next button at the top of the page to progress.

http://uk.msnusers.com/Astrostuff/sh...hoto&PhotoID=7

I dont know if this is true, somewhat true, false or complete bullshit. Take it with an open mind and a large pinch of salt. Take it as you find it. Bear in mind that this is ultimately attempting to explain a 'tendancy' - not a trait or fact for every person alive.

Personally, I think it 'possible' that it is "somewhat true", I dont see anything voodoo here. - though I think there are errors - for instance I outlined one above - that this tendancy should in theory 'drift' because the suns rotation period of 28 days does not divide equally into a year of 365.24 days.

Also as we are talking about periods of 28 days - Modern astrology is completely wrong (as you would expect) because there are 13 periods of 28 days in a year with 1.24 days remaining . This is obviously an error or overlook on the part of this book - and one wonders if infact, the older calendars/astrological systems that had 13 months are indeed more correct.

Heh.

Is it even proven that magnetic fields cause mutations?

(It isn't. Static fields have actually been shown NOT to cause mutations).

It is even funnier because they are suggesting that this is a common way for personalities to differentiate -- that there are soooo many mutations that affect exactly the same genes during certain times of the year...

Hehehehhehehh.. Hahahah... oh dear...
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