are you saved? if not then this will explain how you can be - Page 2

But I don't think the message is "despised", particularly. Ignored, certainly, regarded with a certain queasy misgiving, maybe, but not despised.

Sure, there are aggressively secular people who regard faith as a weakness and Jesus as a fairy tale for the credulous, but, again, this is not so much a reaction to Jesus' actual teachings as it is to the political landscape formed by those that profess to believe these things.

In the American liberal tradition this often takes the form of animosity towards certain Christian's emphasis on the rewards and punishments of the afterlife, which is used as a strategy to moot concerns about "earthly" justice, poverty, etc.

Even worse, so called christian cults of millennialism seem to be pretty fucking sanguine about the idea of the world ending in fire, like, right now, which can be a fairly off putting attitude for those of use not particularly invested in being taken up in the twinkling of an eye. When the president himself gets all Revelations on us, as Reagan had a habit of doing, is it really so surprising that a lot of people might start to go "hmmmm, this christian thing-- bat shit crazy, and dangerous to boot."

And that really has nothing whatsoever to do with "Christ's message".

honestly, I couldn't agree more. There are a lot of christians in the world, and not quite as many followers of Christ. Christianity is usually associated with anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-evolution, anti-liberal, pro-war, and pro-capitalism forces, and the people who are against that, I am right there. You make a good point and I was somewhat wrong on my judgment about why people are so opposed to gnews's post. Jesus's message is countercultural, and does bring opposition, but that is not why the people here are so opposed. Unfortunately people started to think that "God hates fags," and that war is encouraged and commanded by God. I promise you, Jesus does not agree with that. It's sad that Christianity has had such a face put on it. If people, christians and non-christians alike, read what Jesus said and did, they would know what He really stood for and not what the American church has painted christianity to look like.

There's a 2,000 year old copeout in the guise of a nice slow pitch lobbed toward the plate. Who's at bat here?

Paz

Why is that a cop-out? To say that people need to go to the source in order to understand the source? True christianity is following Christ, so to find out what that is supposed to look like, look at Christ. If you don't believe any of it, thats fine, but know that christianity is based on Jesus, and it is not driven by peoples skewed ideas of Jesus, but rather the man himself.

this thread is so gay that gay people around the world are saying, "goddamn, that's fucking gay".

It is the same cope-out as your "True Christianity" cope-out response! Oh My God, now we have to draw a distinction between what.... normal Christianity .... and TRUE Christianity?

Are all the batters on the field gay?

Paz

my point is that when people these days say they are Christians, a lot of times their lives don't reflect it in any way. So many people claim to be Christians, yet their lives don't reflect what Jesus taught in any way. If I called myself a sports fan, yet never watched sports, then I'm not really a sports fan. I can tell people I am, but I'm not doing anything that sports fans do. The same is with Christianity. My point: don't assume that all of the anti-whatevers and pro-whatevers are what Jesus taught, even though many people who say they are christians think so. If someone doesn't know what a sportsfan is, they shouldn't look at the sportsfan who doesn't act like a sportsfan as an example. That doesn't make sense. They should look at the real thing.

That's true Homestar, and to quote HL Mencken: The trouble with Communism is the Communists, just as the trouble with Christianity is the Christians. This is a well known idea. An an "old saw". The 'cope out' I mentioned was not a slur at you, but a suggestion that you might be better served to preach at your congregation with that type of logic rather than waste it on the "infidels". It is obvious that Christians need far more work than those like me who simply believe in one less god than you, and have no reason to believe you are right.

Paz

I've got some planks of wood and a hammer if you see him.

Most people don't disagree with the larger overtones and the general message that Jesus, or the Jesus character, presents in the gospels. Peace, love, brotherhood and all that jazz. Can't argue with general goodness. I, for one, don't like the proselytizing. I have found happiness in a godless world, and I'm content to go on thinking this way.

it wasnt a good bet, heres a better one

I bet you my entire life and eternity in damnation that Jesus and Paul are made up fictional characters.

Your call? can you raise?

Guys read this and then you will believe! Don't laugh at Ronald. He's trying to warn you ! Warn YOU! Waaaaaarrrrrnnnnn YoooOOOUUUUUUUU!

Why don't they thank the Jews? If not for them the evangelists wouldn't be able to annoy us so.

You know, I heard a rumor that Saddam Hussein accepted Jesus right before his hanging. I'm sure you'll have a nice cup of tea together when you go to heaven too.

The basic "born again" dogma is a "get out of jail free card" for murderers and rapists, and people who've committed whatever other sins and crimes, while the Gandhis and Einsteins all go to hell.

Riiight.

When I read some of the replies on to this thread Im left wondering what the responce would be if the poster was muslim and advocating the koran and not Christian and advocating the Bible.

Im sure some of the comments would be labeled as hate speech and bigoted right off the bat.

Here's a tip: when you find yourself making up scenarios to get indignant about, it's time to go for a long walk in the woods.

Except it wouldn't happen - there is no Muslim equivalent to a frothing fundie Bible-basher shoving his foot in your door to 'save you from hell'.

What I hate are double standards. I don't care either way, as to what some say, if you want to know the truth. If someone wants to say XYZ about me faith, race, country...whatever, it does not bother me.

Also, I would not call my post 'indignant'. Did not get mad or anything, just made an observation.

http://www.google.com/search?q=defin...en-US:official

Not on the internet anyway. You can't shoot anybody in an internet forum.

And yet no one here can explain how their God allows a mass murderer to go to heaven if he "accepts Jesus in his heart" but sends Einsten and Gandhi to hell.

Can someone answer that question? Is that the God you worship?

Christian teaching says that no matter how hard you try, you cannot be good enough to enter Heaven.

Man's sinful nature cannot exist side by side with the One True God, who is holy and blameless and cannot coexist with sin. God did not wish to exile Mankind from His presence, so he created a way for Man's sinful nature to be forgiven, through the Messiah, whose death paid the price for the entry of sin into humanity through Adam.

To be perfectly fair, all Mankind will be judged on the basis of their acceptance of the Messiah.

Those whose histories are recorded in the Bible before the Incarnation will be judged on their belief in His coming and their acceptance of His victory over sin and death, even if they did not know the precise form it would take.

Those who lived with Him are judged by what they saw and believed. Those of us who have inherited the Testimonies of the Eyewitnesses will be judged, just like the Ancients, on our belief in His coming and our acceptance of His victory over sin and death.

While at first glance it may seem prudent to judge someone on the basis of their "goodness" or their contribution to humanity, when it is considered at length it is profoundly unfair. God can't justly 'grade on the curve' without violating all kinds of basic ideas of fairness. For a more thorough explanation of why, I suggest you read How Good Is Good Enough by Andy Stanley. It's only 96 pages.

Since some genius is bound to ask, I do not know exactly how the Lord will judge those who did not hear of the Gospel or the Messiah during their earthly lives. I only know that He is wise and just - and extraordinarily merciful - and will have a fair way of dealing with that situation. I trust Him with my life, and can testify to His wisdom, justice and mercy.

So to answer your question directly, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that a mass murderer - whose search for meaning in jail has lead him to faith in Jesus - might end up in heaven. And a brilliant thinker like Einstein or Gandhi, should they reject the life and message of Jesus, could end up in Hell.

Nothing says mercy like love me with the only other option being eternal suffering.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I'm sure it hurts God more than it hurts us to be obliged to condemn us to burn and writhe and scream in agony and beg and beg and beg for forgiveness when it to too late and no forgiveness will ever come and we just keep burning forever and forever and forever.

It's so, I dunno, balanced.

You guys watch too much TV. Hell does not consist of a horned demon with a pitchfork prodding you in the butt while you stand naked waist high in flames.

Eternal suffering exists on Earth right now. I don't see either of you clamouring to go jump off a cliff.
(Not that some of us would complain...)

The choice BR, is to live by the rules God lays down, or live by your own rules in a separate place.

God won't make that choice for you, and you remain free to exist when you choose him or not.

Seriously, mothers of ungrateful sons show more mercy and compassion than the christian god. Battered wives show more mercy and unwavering love than the christian god. Frankly, the christian god is a selfish, childish asshole.

You can say that he sets down rules for you or that you have free will; you cannot say both exist. You can say that god is compassionate and merciful or you can say that not loving him leads to eternal suffering; you cannot say both exist. Your god is a terrible contradiction and if you jerks following him would stop throwing the first stone and instead start turning your damned cheeks this world would be a better place.

Oh come on, that's just nonsense.

Sentence 1: You can, of your own freewill, follow someone's rules. Like stopping at a traffic light at three in the morning. The existence of laws does not negate freewill. Indeed, the choice to follow laws cannot exist without it.

Sentence 2: Mercy is the showing of unmerited favour. While a good judge can show mercy to a guilty party, they can't just throw out the law and let someone go without dealing with the problem. God is merciful while at the same time being righteous and fair to everyone.

Sentence 3: The problem with religion isn't Christians throwing stones, it's probably more about ignorant people who want to quote scriptures they don't understand, foolishly thinking they can pick and choose the parts of the Bible they choose to agree with.

"Too much TV?" Dude, I grew up in baptist Alabama, and I assure you the burning lakes of fire are alive and well.

Funny of God, to make so many of the keepers of his flame fucking assholes. "But God, the guy that told me about Jesus when I was 11 was also fucking me!" "Tough shit, you should have gotten over it an embraced me. Go to hell."

I'll show some mercy myself and let this post go. Frankly, if you have to resort to such language to discuss someone's religious beliefs, I think you really shouldn't be discussing mercy, compassion or childishness.

Ever consider Adda, that you'll be judged on what's true, and not any nonsense somebody told you?

Adam tried passing the buck in the Garden. Didn't work with God then, and won't work now.

One word; 'Dinosaurs'.

You show more mercy than your asshole of a god then. I don't have to be compassionate in order to be qualified enough to say that is a trait your god lacks.

But "nonsense people tell us" constitutes the entire mechanism for discerning between religious beliefs. It's not as if there are empirical criteria that can be applied to judge the worthiness of, say, Zen Buddhism compared to Christianity.

Or among the many species of Christians, for that matter. For instance, the folks from my neck of the wood are pretty sure hell is a place of torment and fire. You say no. How do I know that you're not wrong?

And don't tell me that the Bible makes it clear; people have been wrangling over the "clarity" of the Bible for millennia, and each party is certain that they are in possession of the "real" message.

So if I can't be sure if people who tell me things are correct, what am I to do? Look into my heart, I would imagine, but what can that tell me about things like hell and damnation?

Or look at it this way: how many people have come to Jesus without having any idea who that is or what he's about? You know, just sort of spontaneous Jesus-ness. I would think that would be doable, for God?

But it doesn't seem to happen. You have to be taught, or raised up in it. The idea that the billions of people who were not raised up in it, and don't see the need to be taught since they have there own, indigenous belief systems, the idea that all those billions are damned because they did not "come to Christ" is, I am sorry to say, grotesque and evil.

Like BR, I can only recoil in horror from the machinations of such a God. I am deeply grateful that he is not mine.

T,ftfy.

I find it asinine and self-loathing to interpret Christianity that way, but whatever floats your boat.

Do people actually literally believe heaven and hell exist?

Jesus fucking Christ, people.

The entire thing is an allegory. Abstract (moral) principles laid down in a bed time story as was the way when the stories were collected. When the bible was written there wasn't an intellectual framework upon which morals could be rationally derived -- and so ALL religions depended upon this allegorical spreading of the message as it were...

But, whatever, if you really think your 'soul' is going to be damned if you don't take the bible literally, they perhaps you don't have the intellectual means to be a moral person... so by all means continue believing...

Wait... I missed something. Is this YOUR argument!?

Are you saying it's the critics of Catholicism and American style Christianity who are "picking and choosing"?

Or are you saying every good Christian should NEVER pick and choose, and that's what's wrong with Christianity? Do you mean we should actually start stoning people to death for adultery?

Please, I hope you don't support taking away Good Christians' right to "pick and choose" not to do so.

As a Christian, I see far too many of my fellow believers picking and choosing specific verses to prove some kind of a point of how our lives should be lived. In the process, they miss the big picture of the Bible.

The Bible is all about humility, peace, charity toward others and loving those who seem unlovable. All good attributes.

But what do many believers do? They twist the overall message by picking out specific rules that applied to people 2000+ years ago and forcing them to fit into today's society.

Sometimes I think we need a Bible 2.0.

I've got one of those.....it's called the Qur'an.

No, no, no. You don't get it. The Bible was an early attempt at interactive fiction.

exactly, the biblos interpreted for the intellectually challenged - and it is a benefit they do interpret it this way, because lacking the moral judgments 'sane' people develop in their life, its better they have a noose round their neck so that they're scared of a God pulling the lever, to the benefit of everyone else. The people without this crutch are the murderers, molesters, crooks and criminals - and this is why its not a terribly bad thing they interpret it this way - because intelligent people wrote it in such a way that the dregs of society would be constrained by it.

The trick is not to let them get into positions of power. Doh

Or maybe it really is a work of such a higher order that it could be called 'divine' or 'from God'.

If this were the case then of course hardly anyone would be able to understand it.

Stupid people would take it literally and other sorts of stupid people would spend inordinate amounts of time trying to deny it.

All of them would be missing the common denominator - obviously as they don't by definition have the wisdom to see it - which is the constraints of their own perception.

A donkey loaded with books is still a donkey.