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Barack Obama is in! - Page 2

post #41 of 214
2/13/07 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

what I do take issue with is the double standard, both in the media and here on these boards.

If this had been a Republican, you'd be jumping on it like a John on a cheap hooker.[/b]

Yeah, I hate the way no one in the media is talking about it.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #42 of 214
2/13/07 at 1:42pm
So what? Their lives were wasted. Wasted on an unnecessary war. Wasted by an improperly armored military. Wasted by illconceived plans by the Pentagon.

They absolutely were wasted.

This reminds me of when everyone jumped all over Dean's shit when he said Saddam's capture did not make America safer. Funny how he was right.
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post #43 of 214
2/13/07 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Yeah, I hate the way no one in the media is talking about it.

midwinter, you owe about 5,000 tequila shots for that link.

Get started!

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #44 of 214
2/13/07 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

midwinter, you owe about 5,000 tequila shots for that link.

Get started!

Nick

Yeah really. I was disappointed at his lack of effort there, actually. The existence of a Google News search hardly makes a good argument.
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post #45 of 214
2/13/07 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yeah really. I was disappointed at his lack of effort there, actually. The existence of a Google News search hardly makes a good argument.

If I had been a Republican, you wouldn't have made that response.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #46 of 214
2/13/07 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

If I had been a Republican, you wouldn't have made that response.

Ahh, but the thing that will blow your mind is that if you had been a Republican, you wouldn't have posted that response.



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post #47 of 214
2/13/07 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Ahh, but the thing that will blow your mind is that if you had been a Republican, you wouldn't have posted that response.




Wow. A Matrix reference. And you got it wrong, too. It's "bake your noodle."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #48 of 214
2/13/07 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I think he clarified the remark and I don't hold it against him. That said, what I do take issue with is the double standard, both in the media and here on these boards.

If this had been a Republican, you'd be jumping on it like a John on a cheap hooker. Same goes with the media. Wait until Guilani, Romney or McCain say something that is along these lines. It will be bigger than "Anna Nicole: Death of an Icon!"

Not really... it is a fairly inoffensive statement... I probably said the same thing at some point... and I meant it...
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post #49 of 214
2/14/07 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Wow. A Matrix reference. And you got it wrong, too. It's "bake your noodle."

True...thanks.
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post #50 of 214
2/14/07 at 6:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Not really... it is a fairly inoffensive statement... I probably said the same thing at some point... and I meant it...

It's not offensive to you. It might be offensive to troops and their familes. "Wasted" is pretty strong.
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post #51 of 214
2/14/07 at 8:10am
Even if it's apt? Sometimes the truth hurts.
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post #52 of 214
2/14/07 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

Even if it's apt? Sometimes the truth hurts.

Not when you carry water. Carrying water makes you invulnerable to pain.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #53 of 214
2/14/07 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

Even if it's apt? Sometimes the truth hurts.

I've heard a gaffe defined as when a politician tells the truth.
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post #54 of 214
2/14/07 at 9:42am
I'm surprised that you guys can't see what tropps or their familes might find this offensive. I'm not really upset about as I feel there are lot of better reasons not to support Obama.
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post #55 of 214
2/14/07 at 11:06am
They're goddam soldiers. They can take it. I hate this P.C. situation where the troops are somehow so frickin' sensitive we can't speak in plain english.

And I'm really sick of these Republican blowhards who are so protective of the soldiers when it serves their political agenda, but when the soldiers decide to either speak up, speak out, or run for office (as anything other than a Republican) then their valor, bravery and heroism is sudden suspect, attacked, and Swift Boated. Funny how they're not worried about "the families" then, isn't it?

The Hypocrisy Astounds™
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post #56 of 214
2/14/07 at 12:54pm
But their lives are being wasted... They signed up to protect the US and all they have ended up doing is dying by fighting someone else's civil war. Their lives are being wasted by this administration, their lives are wasted.

This clarification cannot seriously be needed. The term is correct. The idea is correct. THe statement is correct.

They died honorably, but wastefully... is that so hard to understand?
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post #57 of 214
2/14/07 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

They're goddam soldiers. They can take it. I hate this P.C. situation where the troops are somehow so frickin' sensitive we can't speak in plain english.

And I'm really sick of these Republican blowhards who are so protective of the soldiers when it serves their political agenda, but when the soldiers decide to either speak up, speak out, or run for office (as anything other than a Republican) then their valor, bravery and heroism is sudden suspect, attacked, and Swift Boated. Funny how they're not worried about "the families" then, isn't it?

The Hypocrisy Astounds

What Republicans do that? Most of them? Examples?

Secondly, the whole point is that it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what they think. These people have relatives, spouses etc. in Iraq, many of whom do in fact believe in what they are doing. Then they're told that those people's lives are "wasted." The fact that you can't understand that shows that you care only about your view.
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post #58 of 214
2/14/07 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

But their lives are being wasted... They signed up to protect the US and all they have ended up doing is dying by fighting someone else's civil war. Their lives are being wasted by this administration, their lives are wasted.

This clarification cannot seriously be needed. The term is correct. The idea is correct. THe statement is correct.

They died honorably, but wastefully... is that so hard to understand?

Correct according to you. Where is all your talk of accepting other points of view now?
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post #59 of 214
2/14/07 at 1:17pm
Let me take a moment to talk about Obama, getting a little more on topic.

I don't have much against the guy. I don't agree with his politics, but he is a fresh voice and seems to be an honorable man. He's got charisma and a clear, dare I say articulate style.

However, there's been a lot made of his "newness." Other than not having any executive experience, I don't see what makes him new. If you listened to his announcement speech...it was the same old Democratic shit. Universal health care, living wage for everyone, anti-war, make education more affordable, hire more teachers, blah, blah. Nothing concrete. Nothing new in terms of real reform. It's the same old shit.

What will this man do of elected? What experience does he have, especially executive experience? His candidacy seems to based on a Washington Outsider Cult of Personality. I could care less about the troops comment. Just a slip of the tongue, IMHO. But as I said, there are plently of reasons I wouldn't support him. We'll see what primary voters think.
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post #60 of 214
2/14/07 at 2:22pm
SDW, the thing about Obama is that, wait for it... he's black. I think a lot of whites want to feel good about themselves by supporting a black candidate, and that fact can't be ignored in assessing his popularity. And I don't mean that in a purely cynical fashion - electing a black man would be a symbol of how our country has moved beyond the racial problems of the past, and I think people want that to be true. I also think the fact that he's a younger black man, almost a gen-x-er!, is very attractive to young people who want to see racism as a vestige of the past, of those older people. In that sense, he's more of a symbol than he is a candidate that people like for substantive reasons.

On the other hand, with that deep voice he really is very charismatic, and he writes a good speech. Compare him to Hillary or Edwards or any of the other candidates right now. He's the best speech-maker of the bunch, IMO.
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post #61 of 214
2/14/07 at 3:03pm
People like Obama for a bunch of reasons, including his refreshing, moderate religious rhetoric, his sophisticated and contemporary perspective on issues, his candor about his past and his use of symbolism targeting a variety of disparate groups, something dems have long had a difficult time with.

While I used to be unimpressed by him (I was rooting for another dem during the senate primaries), I'm no longer convinced that he wouldn't have the same degree of support (or even perhaps much more) if he was white.
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post #62 of 214
2/14/07 at 3:12pm
Thanks to Cabaret:

How can I speak of his virtues?
I don't know where to begin.
He's clever, he's smart, he reads music,
He doesn't smoke or drink gin.
(Like I do)

If you could see him like I do,
He would'nt look (....) at all!
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post #63 of 214
2/14/07 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

SDW, the thing about Obama is that, wait for it... he's black. I think a lot of whites want to feel good about themselves by supporting a black candidate, and that fact can't be ignored in assessing his popularity. And I don't mean that in a purely cynical fashion - electing a black man would be a symbol of how our country has moved beyond the racial problems of the past, and I think people want that to be true. I also think the fact that he's a younger black man, almost a gen-x-er!, is very attractive to young people who want to see racism as a vestige of the past, of those older people. In that sense, he's more of a symbol than he is a candidate that people like for substantive reasons.

On the other hand, with that deep voice he really is very charismatic, and he writes a good speech. Compare him to Hillary or Edwards or any of the other candidates right now. He's the best speech-maker of the bunch, IMO.

I agree with all of that. It's just amazing what will get people ramped up.
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post #64 of 214
2/14/07 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

People like Obama for a bunch of reasons, including his refreshing, moderate religious rhetoric, his sophisticated and contemporary perspective on issues, his candor about his past and his use of symbolism targeting a variety of disparate groups, something dems have long had a difficult time with.

While I used to be unimpressed by him (I was rooting for another dem during the senate primaries), I'm no longer convinced that he wouldn't have the same degree of support (or even perhaps much more) if he was white.

Well, none of those reasons are particularly good reasons. I understand them, I just don't agree with them. To me, the charisma and personality are icing on the cake. Straightforwardness is a good quality that I look for, but there has to be substance. I just don't think there really is substance to him, though I'll say that he has more than Edwards, who I'm sorry, is a moron.

My feeling is that none of this matters, because the Clinton Machine is going torpedo him. I'd bet money that she's the nominee, barring something crazy like, I don't know...Al Gore announcing.
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post #65 of 214
2/14/07 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I just don't think there really is substance to him, though I'll say that he has more than Edwards, who I'm sorry, is a moron.

...Obama and Edwards are both exceptionally bright by any standard.

As a general matter, we *want* highly educated people like them, regardless of political ideology, leading our country. Lesser educated candidates might have other compelling attributes, sure. But let's not put up any false pretense of their being "moronic" or lacking "substance." Both of those guys could out-substance most people by a mile. The real reason you don't like Obama is ideology. That's fine in a sense, but I wish you'd just say so.
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post #66 of 214
2/14/07 at 11:31pm
The thing about the Democratic field is how they always seem to run Senators, when I think Americans at large have expressed a clear preference for using Governors that come to the table with Executive Experience.

I know that there are good Democratic governors across the country, yet you never seem to hear much about them. (Dean was an exception.)

I think this is why Hillary will end up with the nod. Whether most will admit it or not, she will ultimately be seen as trumping both Obama and Edwards in Executive Experience.
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post #67 of 214
2/15/07 at 2:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The thing about the Democratic field is how they always seem to run Senators, when I think Americans at large have expressed a clear preference for using Governors that come to the table with Executive Experience.

I know that there are good Democratic governors across the country, yet you never seem to hear much about them. (Dean was an exception.)

I think this is why Hillary will end up with the nod. Whether most will admit it or not, she will ultimately be seen as trumping both Obama and Edwards in Executive Experience.

Tom Vilsak. The former governor of Iowa is running, but he is not getting much national attention.
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post #68 of 214
2/15/07 at 4:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

...Obama and Edwards are both exceptionally bright by any standard.

As a general matter, we *want* highly educated people like them, regardless of political ideology, leading our country. Lesser educated candidates might have other compelling attributes, sure. But let's not put up any false pretense of their being "moronic" or lacking "substance." Both of those guys could out-substance most people by a mile. The real reason you don't like Obama is ideology. That's fine in a sense, but I wish you'd just say so.

Shawn, Obama may be bright, but Edwards is an idiot. Have you listened to him? He has one speech. He's the son of a millworker though! Seriously, he's nothing more than a pretty boy with a half-pleasing/half-annoying Southern accent.
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post #69 of 214
2/15/07 at 4:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The thing about the Democratic field is how they always seem to run Senators, when I think Americans at large have expressed a clear preference for using Governors that come to the table with Executive Experience.

I know that there are good Democratic governors across the country, yet you never seem to hear much about them. (Dean was an exception.)

I think this is why Hillary will end up with the nod. Whether most will admit it or not, she will ultimately be seen as trumping both Obama and Edwards in Executive Experience.

At this point I agree Hillary will get the nod. I agree that Senators don't do well in Presidential races. The last one to win was Kennedy.

However, I disagree on the reason Hillary will get the nomination. If she gets it, it will be because of two reasons. 1) Democrats think she can win and 2) She's a woman. I'm not saying there won't be people who make an informed choice, but in general Democrats vote for whom they think can win. Republicans vote for the person closest to their ideology. 2004 was a prime example. Kerry ran as a centrist, even though he wasn't, of course. But he was given the nod anyway because the party thought he was the best wartime candidate. There were better choices. Dean was more closely allied with the Democratic base.
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post #70 of 214
2/15/07 at 6:40am
Obama is an authentic African-American

Facing the experience question

You all have to drink two shots.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #71 of 214
2/15/07 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

At this point I agree Hillary will get the nod. I agree that Senators don't do well in Presidential races. The last one to win was Kennedy.

However, I disagree on the reason Hillary will get the nomination. If she gets it, it will be because of two reasons. 1) Democrats think she can win and 2) She's a woman. I'm not saying there won't be people who make an informed choice, but in general Democrats vote for whom they think can win. Republicans vote for the person closest to their ideology. 2004 was a prime example. Kerry ran as a centrist, even though he wasn't, of course. But he was given the nod anyway because the party thought he was the best wartime candidate. There were better choices. Dean was more closely allied with the Democratic base.

And what Hillary picks Obama as her running mate? A double threat.

I think this would make a great deal of sense and it's not like they're enemies.

As to the troop thing most americans don't support a troop increase. This includes the families of those troops. Most I think would rather see their kids pull out of a losing situation.

SDW the polls reflect this.
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post #72 of 214
2/15/07 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Shawn, Obama may be bright, but Edwards is an idiot. Have you listened to him? He has one speech. He's the son of a millworker though! Seriously, he's nothing more than a pretty boy with a half-pleasing/half-annoying Southern accent.

He's a UNC law grad with honors (neither an easy school to get into nor an easy academic distinction to reach) and, at one point, one of the best lawyers in the country. He's not an "idiot" by any definition.
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post #73 of 214
2/15/07 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

He's a UNC law grad with honors (neither an easy school to get into nor an easy academic distinction to reach) and, at one point, one of the best lawyers in the country. He's not an "idiot" by any definition.

Bah! He's only got one speech! Clearly an idiot!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #74 of 214
2/15/07 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And what Hillary picks Obama as her running mate? A double threat.

I think this would make a great deal of sense and it's not like they're enemies.

As to the troop thing most americans don't support a troop increase. This includes the families of those troops. Most I think would rather see their kids pull out of a losing situation.

SDW the polls reflect this.


A Clinton/Obama ticket is a real possiblity, I agree. But they don't like each other...don't fool yourself.

As for the troop increase, I don't recall mentioning that. Regardless, I'm not sure why you'd mention the polling data, other than the fact that Congress is apparently ignoring it.
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post #75 of 214
2/15/07 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

He's a UNC law grad with honors (neither an easy school to get into nor an easy academic distinction to reach) and, at one point, one of the best lawyers in the country. He's not an "idiot" by any definition.

He might be a smart lawyer, but that doesn't make him smart. No offense.
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post #76 of 214
2/15/07 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He might be a smart lawyer, but that doesn't make him smart. No offense.

You don't get honors grades at any law school--nevermind one as good as UNC-- without being smart and working very very hard. His intelligence isn't an issue.
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post #77 of 214
2/15/07 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

You don't get honors grades at any law school--nevermind one as good as UNC-- without being smart and working very very hard. His intelligence isn't an issue.

You don't get into Harvard Business School and Yale...and graduate...by being stupid either.
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post #78 of 214
2/15/07 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You don't get into Harvard Business School and Yale...and graduate...by being stupid either.

You do by having prominent parents, then you can cheat your way through or just draft behind fellow students when working in a group. It's fairly common and one of the reasons people (like my wife) turn down HBS.
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post #79 of 214
2/15/07 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

You do by having prominent parents, then you can cheat your way through or just draft behind fellow students when working in a group. It's fairly common and one of the reasons people (like my wife) turn down HBS.


Your Daddy can get you in, but I doubt he can get you out.
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post #80 of 214
2/15/07 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Your Daddy can get you in, but I doubt he can get you out.

Can you read more than six words before hitting reply?
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

You do by having prominent parents, then you can cheat your way through or just draft behind fellow students when working in a group. It's fairly common and one of the reasons people (like my wife) turn down HBS.

I also doubt that an HBS prof would fail out a student from such a prominent family. His dad was chairman of the RNC at the time. Especially considering he has the same name, any prof would have known.
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