Vista to bite into Apple's Mac market share - Page 2

10.5 should have full vista support.

That is the kind of attitude which causes Apple to struggle. Keeping the Mac as some kind of elitist fraternity will kill Apple's momentum and probably end up driving away both the switchers and so Mac users on the edge. I prefer an Apple that is in a solid position in both financials and marketshare.

Bingo! And if the temporary drop in Mac marketshare caused by the one-two punch of Vista and waiting for Leopard isn't incentive for Apple to cover the IMPORTANT bases, then what is?

Bases Apple SHOULD cover:

1) Resonably-priced minitower (sorry Apple Apologista Squad™, you may not want one, but a significant number of potential Apple Switchers do.)
2) Subnotebook! I wouldn't want one, but this is a hot and growing segment.
3) $999 MacBook (with the option to upgrade graphics for $$$).
4) Better/more flexible BTO option in the Apple Store in general.
5) Free or cheap Leopard upgrade voucher for all Macs bought between now and Leopard's release (thank you to whomever first mentioned this, brilliant idea).

The question is, HOW BAD does Apple want marketshare? They can 'stay the course', be complacent, and watch it drop or stagnate; or they can be aggressive, compete, and watch it rise even in the face of current headwinds.

Guess we'll see if Steve has been eating his Wheaties soon.

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Basically, give it roughly until Service Pack 1. The biggest kinks will be worked out, enough drivers and apps will be adjusted, and virtually any new computer will ship with it.

Apple is actually doing very well, they've got big wads of cash and are very profitable. The open question is whether hitting a couple major segments that they don't bother with would help them do better or not.

Apple is in a very solid financial position, and its market share has been growing. It doesn't need artificial boosts.

Wasn't their marketshare growth down last quarter?

Yah, and by the time SP1 comes out, 10.6 or 10.7 should be out... if development on vista is any indication of time.

Very slightly. It really hasn't negated the general upward trend.

Maybe we can start with a clean statistical slate from this year forward... all Vista sales versus all Leopard sales. That might be interesting over time and actually have some relevance. MS have already made the graph (in USA Today a week or two back) showing Vista climbing to 95%+ market share (interestingly showing XP totally dying out quite soon) and Mac and others making up the rest. I wonder if they are being a tad optimistic.

Word. I got Ultimate, too. And it is just as good as XP stability-wise, and I can put my goddamn libraries of pictures on my network LaCie drive without a hassle. Leopard better catch up with Windows when it comes to networking ability. The Finder blows on OS X, and iPhoto is a joke. Also, what is up with putting iTunes on network drives, too?

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm a Mac user too. I have a new Mac Pro intel dual 3.0 with 8 gigs of ram and a 30" display. But I didn't have any printer issues with Vista, I guess because HP Laser drivers were ready to go. All I'm saying is that the Win vs. Mac issue is usually overstated because Mac works and Vista works so Windows people are NOT going to bail in droves.

PS by the way, iTunes appears to work perfectly in Vista, at least from my experience.

In order to compare and determine if sales of Vista boxes at a particular store will have an effect on Apple, you need to also look at the sales of Apple computers at the same store over the same time period. Not all stores sell both products so one has to be selective where we get the numbers.

Also Vista is currently having a lot of problems with drivers and compatability issues with old applications. Some of these sales may result in returns which also need to be taken into consideration.

Also Leopard will be out soon (cross fingers) and that will also add to the mix.

Lets use a little more context before we make such bold statements, I would love to see some good data points either way.

But it does, and it will. \

Short-term, Mac sales will be sluggish as folks wait for Leopard (unless Apple is smart and offers some free or cheap Leopard upgrade vouchers with every new Mac purchase).

Long-term, Vista is still in growing pains mode, but give it a year and a couple of service packs to work the kinks out, and you will have a situation where many potential switchers (which account for nearly half of Mac sales these days) shrug and go, "Vista looks just like OS X, and everyone says it works fine now. So what's so special about Macs that I need to go against the tide?".

Yes, Leopard will be an upgrade. But its probably fair to say that the market in general will regard it as a moderate/minor improvement to OS X, as opposed to Vista which is being seen as a major improvement/overhaul to Windows. The perceived gap between OS X and Windows will have been seen to have closed some, even after Leopard is released, and even if that perception is regarded as unfair or inaccurate amongst the tech-savvy. \

The one thing that could change this scenario a bit is Vista being laid out with a series of pretty awful security breaches, but I dunno... the breaches would have to be real headline-grabbers, and persistent (multiple instances) to have much effect. In other words, Vista's security would have to be nearly as bad as XP's, and I don't know that you can bank on that.

So its on Apple to get more aggressive, both short-term and long-term. Here's hoping they do.

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One thing I noticed at my local CompUSA... ALL THE XP BOXES have been pulled. I was talking to customer service and they said m$ took all copies of XP and replaced with Vista. At that particular CompUSA you are unable to obtain a copy of XP. So even if you wanted to go back (which i hear a lot of people wanting), you can't. I haven't paid attention in other stores, but I can imagine M$ doing this is a majority of stores.

"There are far too many people that say "how much is a tower?" 2.5k. "no thanks".

And if one were to interject, "But that is between $1,000 and $1500 cheaper than a similarly configured PC," would it still be, "no thanks."? Or have we all forgotten.

It is interesting that so many have proposed that Apple's only salvation is to offer more and for less. And in most cases never the two alone. (Equally intersting that all those that have chastized Adobe for not coming forth sooner with an Intel compatible suite have said nothing about Adobe's lack of support for Vista.)

What I do find interesting is that we recently met with a group of graphic designers who admitted that the absence of an Adobe upgrade has held them off from upgrading their Macs. Most were actually quite happy about it, because they figured that Leopard and CS would be hitting at the same time, making the combination easier to justify. Better yet, the PC guys were totally disavowing Vista and was confident that Macs were finally in their/companies' future.

True that only a couple of guys were forced to PCs, doesn't make a true worldly representation, howerver, some of their observations do. For example, a lot of the home machines were comprised for whatever reason, of copies of their companys' software. With so much PC software in place, it is pretty hard for Apple to combat, because it just isn't switching to a Mac that is so expensive, it is having to purchase the necessary Mac versions of the all their software, wereas, the PC version was either free or readiable obtainable.

It was agreed, that although PC has more available software, much of it is not usable at all, particularly for the later operating systems and now, even less with Vista. As a couple of us voiced, it is too bad that more vendors didn't do what Claris (an Apple company) does with FileMaker, i.e., package both Mac and PC versions in one (same key and price of one). As one said, "If Adobe and Microsoft in particular, let us upgrade Adobe CS and Office respectively to our choice of platform, or better yet like FileMaker…

Okay, but let me dream at least."

Actually that isn't the argument. No one is claiming the Mac Pro isn't a good value for hardware. At least I haven't seen anyone argue it. The argument is, there is a huge gap between the mac mini and mac pro. Going from laptop components to workstation components. There really isn't anything mid-line for consumers / pro-sumers. Even the iMac has laptop components (x1600 mobile, ram, motherboard chipset, cpu) and also has a built in display which you are forced to use even though you may have your own display. There is a big place for a Conroe / Kentsfield desktop right smack in the middle of all these machines that PC switchers would LOVE to get their hands on. The Mac Pro is a great buy, but it isn't for everyone. And anything less in the line doesn't fit the bill for many either.

Yeah? And?

Obviously they don't want to be in that market. I'm sure they have their reasons.

I don't do design work for religious organisations. Obviously I'm not covering all the bases too despite it seeming odd to religious groups that I'm turning their money down.

Wrong. You can plug your display in to the iMac.

You sure can!! Assuming you want your display on the LEFT side and just want it to be a 2nd tier display, unless you mirror.

I'm not going to hash this out in this thread. It's already taking a turn off subject. If you want to battle this out go here: Isn't it time for a plain old Macintosh again?

42 pages for your delite

BTW... I'm glad you have your pride on the later sentence. But the question arises, is apple doing it for pride? Or is apple doing it for other reasons

Yeah, it'd still probably be "no thanks", sad to say.

Because as we all know, you can build a pretty killer EXPANDABLE Core 2 Duo-Vista PC desktop for $1000-1500 these days. A lot of people, even in a business or authoring environment, do not need a full-on $2500 Mac Pro system, however awesome a value it may or may not be. It is simply overkill for their needs.

Let's put it this way- I work at a multibillion dollar international corporation. We're going to be buying some media boxes for authoring purposes. We're going the PC route (ugh) and will be getting some nice Core 2 Duo desktops for roughly $1400 a pop.

If Apple had had an expandable desktop in the that price range, we might have gone with them, because we could've run the software we wanted to author on (Captivate) on the Windows side, and also have used Final Cut Pro on the Mac side, something that's attractive but not mandatory for what we do. But that ability simply isn't worth the $1100 surcharge (actually more like $1200-1300, since we'd have to get Windows also).

So Apple misses out, and I have to use a less good comp because of it. Yay.

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TBaggins, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people in that position. It's no wonder Vista is going to get away with murder in sales. It's unfortunate that m$ can throw their weight that way. Marketing tactics, pulling XP off shelves, offering free upgrades 2-5 months before it shipped, taking advantage of every x86 computer in the world being able to run it. Talk crap about m$ all you want (i do), but they definitely know how to flex their muscles to force sales.

I have mine on the right and it's neither second tier or a mirror. Seems to work just fine. You do know you can move the screens in the preference pane don't you? And indicate which is the primary display?


Nothing to do with pride for me. I just don't think promoting religion is a good idea.

And what does it matter if Apple aren't doing what you want for whatever reason they fancy - it's their business, not yours. One of my clients is a bike company who comes out with completely whacky designs every now and again simply because they can and they like doing it. For instance, they're just about to do a limited edition lugged steel frame. NOBODY builds bikes like that anymore but the owner just fancied one for the hell of it so they're building a whole run. They don't make the most common kinds of bikes and nobody really expects them to either. Why people can't get their heads around Apple doing exactly the same puzzles me immensely? You know, Apple - the company that wants us to 'Think Different'.

42 pages of babies crying that they can't get their XMac isn't going to convince Apple or me.

I'm an old school Mac user (used them at school/work since '86, owned since '92) and I want a minitower. As it stands Apple derives almost no benefit from my existence. I've owned a lot of Macs over the years but Apple only got my money twice. The rest of the time I've purchased used desktops or towers. I'm a software professional and I can afford to buy new, but there are only two Macs that allow me to choose a display upgrade cycle independently of the computer upgrade, only one Mac with room for more than one HD, only one with more than two RAM slots (so you can add RAM without throwing some away), only one that allows me to swap the video card, optical drive, etc. The Mac Pro contains server components not appropriate for most users and priced far above the tower offerings available in the PC world.

Regarding notebooks, Apple still seems to be stuck in a mindset that budget users have notebooks with small screens and power users have large screens. I think Sony, HP, Toshiba, et al have proof that Apple should have a 15" MacBook and compact, ultra light MacBook Pro in the lineup.

Apple can retort that the 12" PowerBook and 14" iBook were sales failures, but I'll point to the fact that the 12" PowerBook was seriously crippled, a product most customers could not distinguish from an iBook except by the aluminum skin and 50% increase in price. The 14" iBook was too heavy (significantly more than the 15" PowerBook), had the same low resolution display as the 12" model and needlessly upgraded components which drove the price too high.

I also like the idea of a free Leopard voucher, but Vista shouldn't be the incentive for it. Instead Apple should establish a standard policy that buyers will receive a free OS upgrade with a computer when purchased within a reasonable time period before a major release. Then, as a major release is approaching, advertise the free upgrade date. Stop making potential buyers guess, stop driving us to rumor sites, give us a firm date and stick to it even if the OS itself arrives unexpectedly early or late.

Those who need to make a purchase before that date may whine about not getting a free upgrade, but if they really need the computer, they will lose far more than $129 in lost productivity by waiting.

Its not just MS. Its Apple not recognizing a hole in their product line-up, one that, yeah, would do them a lot of good to fill. No one is asking them to be all things to all people. But an expandable midrange desktop... that's a pretty basic/core need. Maybe not among current Mac users (though I could be wrong about that), but among those who'd like to be.

I guess they just didn't want to sell us some comps.

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Which is why I have an iMac. What do you need to expand in these PCs ?

So what are you expanding in these PCs that you can't get in an iMac or via it's ports?

A cheaper headless Mac would be sweet, but would probably cut into the iMac sales, as you can get LCD's for next to nothing anymore (and good ones at that). I

I just don't see what is stopping Apple from releasing a mid-tower that has specs like:

2 GB DDR2 RAM
Intel E6400-E6600
250 - 320 GB SATA
Nvidia 7-series or ATI variant.
Apple KB and mouse
All in a cheaper, white tower, similar look to an iMac.

All for $1200-1500 - very doable IMO.

Look at this HP, it even has an HD-DVD drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883107230

The iMac just doesn't get it - its not bad, but it's still a laptop in a different case. And $2500 for a tower, is not needed for home users, unless you're a PC gamer maybe, but that is atypical as well.

Leopard really doesn't wow me, but it's new, some of the features have been available for Windows and *nix for years, but a OSX would be that happy medium between Windows and Linux that I could happy with. Just need that mid-tower.

USB and AC brick clutter, cheaper internal drives, possible ability to swap out graphics cards.

And how do you eject your dvd / cd out of the RIGHT side of the iMac? Kinda hard when the LCD is flush against the bezel. And yes I do know you can move them. I have my 20" 205bw samsung on my PB on the RIGHT side. But I don't have to worry about ejecting things that go against the LCD. However I wasn't aware you could set it as a primary display. You certainly can't on my powerbook.


We are simply showing there is a HUGE demand for it. Babies crying? Just because it doesn't apply to you, doesn't mean it doeasn't apply to other people. And again, I was simply showing that if you want to be a good AI member, you'd move this discussion to the other thread. Participate if you want. I don't care either way. But this thread isn't the place for this discussion.

Boss wanted the ability to drop in a good video editing card and/or upgrade graphics if need be. Wasn't interested in external 'box' solutions as 1) he hasn't really heard of 'em, 2) when described to him, he thought they sounded cheesy- though IMO something like a Dazzle Bridge might've been ok.

Its just a tough sell to someone who hasn't seen/heard about one, and he wanted "maximum flexibility", quote unquote. So the PC solution won out. I'm sure that the conversation we had would've worked out the same with 9 out of 10 bosses I've met in the corp world. Blah. \

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Are you serious?

You really think Apple haven't recognised that they don't have a mid range tower product?

I'm pretty sure they have, just so far they've chose not to fill the gap for whatever reason be it aesthetic or financial or the secretaries dog doesn't like them.

Yep, but as history shows us again and again, a company unwilling to cannibalize its existing product line will have someone else do it for them. \


That's pretty close to what we ended up getting, 'cept we had dual 320 GB hard drives, and got a slightly better price.

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USB - don't see them. There's one cable out of my iMac to a quite pretty Swann USB hub behind my printer. Wireless everything else here.

AC - they're behind my desk out of sight.

Drives - I'd rather have external ones as you can transport them between machines or take them offsite. The last external case I bought was £9. The next set of drives I'm looking at are networked.

Graphics cards - It's already way more than I need for Photoshop or the OS.

For most pros that aren't video/3D pros, just general graphics and programming, the iMac is overkill never mind a mid tower XMac.

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I am not a fan of analysts, but on this one, despite all the hopes to the contrary being expressed here, the general thurst of Munster's analysis is right on. The reasons are:

1) Price, price, price: You can get brand new Vista Premium-ready notebooks that are amazingly fully-loaded for the average home/corporate user in the $600 - $800 range. Mac has nothing that comes close. (I know, I know, all the arguments about "no it's not really comparable" or "the Mac mini" or "think about all the goodies such as iLife" etc -- it is all completely irrelevant to a typical home/corporate user, and has been beaten to death in the "Hello I am a Mac/PC" ads).

2) Inertia, inertia, inertia: Market shares for operating systems will simply track new computer purchases. Here, Apple does have issues -- their share actually fell a bit. The fact that this happened despite XP being on its last legs and OSX being so much better tells me that the average person is not persuaded by Macs in spite of its greater ease of use, elegance, iLife software, magnetic power cords, brighter screens, etc etc. It is also related to where the increases in computer sales are happening worldwide (they are in expremely price-sensitive markets in Asia and Latin America).

3) Same-same-same: For the average consumer, it is not at all clear that 10.5 represents a great breakthrough over 10.4.8 (or later) as does Vista over XP. (I am a slightly-better-than-average consumer, and frankly, I see no pressing need for switching to 10.5 as soon as it comes out; other users in my family, even less so).

4) iPhone, iPod, iTunes: Apple (sans "Computer") has become too enamored with the sexier and cooler entertainment/media/telecom business. Corporate attention is beginning to wander away from computers -- there's only so much within a corporate span of attention that can done effectively. Right now, the margins in e/m/t are high for Apple, but all three are brutally competitive businesses. Altho computers are also a brutally competitive business, Apple's software was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the business and that was a major diffferentiating factor. But in media and entertainment, the real "software" is content, not software -- and, Apple has little to offer there.

I hate to sound Cassandra-ish, but ten years from now, January 2007 (iPhone + Vista + "Apple Inc") could be marked as the (slow) beginning of the (hopefully, even slower) end of Macintoshes.

Is the Pope Catholic?


Well, they're obviously choosing profitability over marketshare in this instance, which is desirable a lot of the time... BUT they also seem to be stuck in some old-school thinking as well, not realizing how much they could expand their share among (potential) switchers here.

I get where Apple is coming from, I just think they need to Think Different in this area. 8)

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I'm going to say it again, because it's the point that needs to be stressed in this whole "why isn't there a xxxx Mac?" discussion.

I've used Macs for over 20 years
I own three Macs that get used every day
When the price/performance has been there I've bought brand new (2 from Apple and one clone)
I want to buy a new Mac with AppleCare

Apple isn't going to get a penny from me until they offer a machine that offers the features I want at a price I consider reasonable.

Said price will be higher than a superficially similar machine from Dell because I want Apple quality and MacOS X and because I understand the need for my computer vendor to make a healthy profit so it will still be around when I want my next computer.

Apple are stuck in some 'old-school thinking' because they aren't building mid-towers ?

LOL! Comedy gold.

WTF buys mid towers these days outside of the cubicles and the teeange gamer geek, neither of which are traditional Mac buyers. Switchers have been buying laptops. Home/Small business users have too. Lots of creatives find laptops perfect too. The days of the empty mid tower sat on your desk or festering somewhere near the dust bunnies on the floor are almost over.

Yeah that'd make a lot of sense to me. Good Idea, an OSX upgrade guaranteed would inspire a lot people.

Sorry, double post.

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