Apple to re-enter the sub-notebook market - Page 4

There are some people who are insisting that it will have 32 GB flash. But, that's only because they think it's really cool, and really, really, want it.

Um, read the article. It said that it would be included, just like the external floppy drive for the 2400. It's not just for saving battery power, either. It's primarily to produce a smaller, thinner, lighter subnotebook. External is not such a bad thing, either. You can upgrade an external drive easily. It's easy to put a faster DVD burner or even a Blu-ray burner in an external Firewire 800 or eSATA enclosure and not have a redundant, slower burner inside the laptop itself.

I know no one knows for certain, but when do you think the announcement (with specs) will be? WWDC? Earlier? Later? With Santa Rosa?

Let's just assume, for the moment, that this notebook will materialize and not fade away as just another rumor.

I'm hoping to see the announcement before WWDC, preferably at the end of March or in April, but I think that's just wishful thinking.

Cheers

Since the unit is just a rumor, so far, so would any intro date.

Apple has recently filed some patents that deal with a docking mechanism. Maybe a dock would be used to give the system extra ports or optical capabilities. The PowerBook Duo used this approach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_Duo

Some here are posting comments that suggest you are looking at this product as a replacement for your main computer. I disagree. Today, many people have multiple computers. If Apple launched this product, I think it would be positioned as an extension of your current HW set-up. The dock might plug into your Mac, and automatically sync files/folders, bookmarks, etc.

I don't think Apple cares about people who play DVD movies. DVDs kill the battery. More importantly, Apple sells movies on iTunes. I'm sure they would be quick to point out that as a recommended solution.

who needs a keyboard---it will have the iphone interface and this way they can expand this tech to other platforms. could you imagine the buzz if the iphone interface was used for this subnotebook???why waste the interface. the interface is the future of apple products. much better interface than tablet pc's have, you dont need a stylus. very cool hey think future and what you'd like to see in 5 years, SJ showed you the future the iphone is the tip of the iceberg

as far as watching dvd's, dvd's are so yesterday, what will happen is itv will connect just as slingblade does and you access all your movies this way--how much power does that take.. with 4gig and larger flash drives THAT will replace the optical drive. you carry your data from you office, home on the flash drive and work from it. also more and more programs will be on servers, i see a day where most of your hd and workflow apps are server, net based and you just need a screen and input options, including voice and touch screen. see it all works together, iphone, iphone interface, itv, apple home server etc.

That's why I think it will have two screens: one is a touch panel.

It can be a keyboard.

It can be an interface.

It can be a control panel.


The possibilities are limitless.

A lot of the ideas put forth here were discussed in depth on the recent AI thread "Speculation: iWork/iLife waiting for new multi-touch hardware". You'll see many really good posts on the pros and cons of eliminating a conventional keyboard in favor of a multi-touch panel. Many good points were made by touch typists about the difficulties of fast typing on a "virtual" keyboard. There were also some very good posts on actually using multi-touch gestures on a daily basis with the FingerWorks iGestures panel. I highly recommend reading through that entire thread.

One idea I suggested in that thread was a small, ~3lb notebook with a conventional keyboard and a "pop out" multi-touch panel (similiar to the old FingerWorks iGesture panel) in the space now occupied by the ODD. One can envison an ODD-less laptop or a unit with the ODD on the bottom of the unit (in reference to one of Apple's pending patent applications doing just that).

I don't think there will be two screens where one of them is a touchpad a la iPhone.

I think we'll get the standard keyboard for now. Yes having a touchpad instead of a keyboard is a good idea, and I can see why people would like it (though I'm personally not fond of the idea), but I think it's too soon. The iPhone isn't even out yet, so Apple doesn't have feedback on how well the touchscreen is working for that.

Give it another year, or five, and then maybe we'll see it.

Apple isn't interested in being that far ahead of the curve.

Many of the interesting ideas here are too far ahead for now.

They are also far too expensive.

While Apple doesn't shy away from costs, they have to have realistic expectations for any device.

One of the problems they are having is that they are very slow in bringing new ideas to market. We have no idea as to what they are doing in R&D, but it seems to me as though many of the good ideas that would have elicited a "Wow", if Apple had come out with them two years ago, have now been introduced by Sony, and others.

I'm not really sure just what Apple can do with a small form machine that hasn't already been done at any given price level. Apple has to price their machines to make a profit, as Sony does. We can look to them and see what they are offering, and at what price. I really can't see how Apple can do much better.

A company can't simply add expensive features and release the product. Apple is known to maintain good margins on their products, as Sony does. They won't release a machine for marginalized profits. We all know that.

If they do come out with another small machine, it will be nice, offer "good" value, and be stylish. But, it won't offer anything that others haven't already offered, or won't be offering in the near future. So, at best, Apple will have a few months head start. They are subject to the same market forces everyone else is subject to.

Why do people always go to extremes? A subnotebook must have a keyboard and it must have a hard drive for now. Stop trying to dump proven, useful technologies in favor of something you think is "kewl." Can it have a MultiTouch screen? Possibly, but that doesn't negate the great utility of a keyboard. Haven't you noticed over the years that lots of people complain when a keyboard has bad, mushy "feel"? If just substandard tactile feedback can adversely impact typing speeds and the typing experience in general, why should anyone be in a tearing hurry to eliminate that feedback completely? With the relatively low prices and higher capacity of 1.8" hard drives, there's no need to go completely flash memory, either. Be honest, do you really think Apple would put out a laptop that can't have more storage capacity than their iPods? That'd be suicide. Stop thinking either/or. New technologies are great, but they don't necessarily supplant older, proven ones. They can also supplement them.

Great article that warms my heart and gets my hopes up.

Count on me to spring for a MacBook mini subnotebook, but only if it can run Boot Camp and Windows. At this point in my life, I'm looking for something small and light that can take care of my personal needs (in OS X) and my work needs (unfortunately Windows-only) in the same device. Otherwise I will have to choose from within the existing MacBook and MBP lineup.

Hope springs eternal.

I think that's exactly right. If the rumours are true, the machine will likely be similar to what the best ones out there or upcoming are, but possibly particularly beautiful, well implemented (making it very practical as a satellite, optimizing its limitations like battery life or capacity, etc.), and with one or two nice and innovative (but not too radical) surprises. And that's a good thing--around the best one can hope for without magic or subsidies.

It runs OS X, yes, but not the version you're using on whichever Mac you happen to be using.

The way it fits onto an iPhone is that they stripped out all of the stuff that would be irrelevant on the phone (the Finder, the Desktop, Screensavers, all of the system level stuff that relates to Trackpads, Hardware drivers dating back to the last Mac that can run Tiger or any version of OS X, Printer Drivers, etc.) and added in stuff that is relevant to a Phone.

There isn't a lite version of OS X, just one OS X, with different drivers, different image files, and different ways of handling software and networking.

Sebastian

May I ask how and why you are taking a couple of rumors to be fact?
There is no solid evidence pointing towards a 15" Macbook.
There is no solid evidence pointing towards a Subnotebook, granted I think it would be damn cool, and with no moving parts, maybe even possible to get a Notebook to be 3/16 of an inch (not sure what it turns out to be in the Metric system) which would rock. It would also be scary because it would be almost 2 dimensional, especially if it had LED backlights in the Screen.

Sebastian

The problem with this is that the iPod is a slave. A Dumb device that does only what iTunes allows it to do, a very small brain of it's own to handle system level tasks of playing content, storing content, and accessing content with a minimal User Interface for doing those tasks.

iTunes is the brains behind everything the iPod does, and this keeps it simple and easy to use because otherwise the iPod would have to become far too complicated to manage it's own Library.

Sebastian

Yay, I finally read through all the posts and can now post the specs I am thinking about.

2+ Ghz Intel Dual Core CPU
2 GB RAM
Intel Integrated GPU
64-128 Flash Drive
802.11 b/g/n
Bluetooth 2.0 EDR
802.16 WiMax
2 USB Ports
1 Docking Station (maybe 90-120 Pins)
10.5" LED Backlit 16:9 Display (no touch, I don't expect a Tablet out of this thing)
iSight
and of course a Docking Station I'm not even going to try and guess at
a Trackpad but NO Button. It would use that Touch to Click option on existing Macbook trackpads (it takes getting used to, but is very useful)

OK, why am I avoiding any specific Chip Names? I don't plan on seeing this materialize for another year or 2. But if it were, then I would probably keep most of that, except make it a Core 2 Duo, GMA 3000 (or whatever it's called) 1 GB of RAM and only 64 GB Flash Drive.

The idea behind these specs is to make a Sub notebook 3/16" with NO Moving parts (HDDs and Optical Drives) that would be almost 2 Dimensional. If it can be squeezed down to 1/8 of an inch that would be even better!

It's also based on Apple's current design of Notebooks (all of them have iSight, all of them have WiFi+Bluetooth EDR, etc.) and a Keyboard.

Also, every year someone doubles the density of Flash memory, today I believe you can theoretically get 64 GB on an SD card, and in 2005 you could theoretically get 32 GB on a Flash Drive so this year I'm guessing 128 GB by the end of the year, even so, Apple can put in Flash Chips slightly larger then SD Cards to reach that size.

It wouldn't be more expensive then $2000 is my guess as well. Flash Memory prices dropped like a rock because of Apple and this would only decrease the price even further (ha! they'd have 75% of the Flash Memory market in their control) so I don't think that would be expensive. Also because the screen would be so small I don't think you'd have to worry about prices going up because of the LED backlights, but if you don't use those then the entire computer would be off balance with the screen, so it's kind of mandatory to use LED backlights to get it so small. Also because of Apple being the perfect perfectionists, they likely wouldn't give you a removable battery (assuming this design could be real, or partially real) so that would help keep the size down.

It would be the perfect computer, Small, very lightweight, and all the benefits of a Mac out of the box (video conferencing, podcasting, etc.) and while they were at it, hopefully they could partially redesign their keyboard to get rid of the second enter button, one of the command keys, and move the Eject button up by the power button. They could also drop Caps Lock (I never saw a need for it) and one of the shift buttons.

Sebastian
EDIT:
I noticed a barely noticable conflict in my spec sheet. I suggested moving the Eject Key (or I think I did, I don't feel like rescanning it to make sure, but I'm sure I meant to add it) but I realize now that with no internal Optical drive, you wouldn't need such a Key eliminating yet 1 more key on the Keyboard

No offense Slewis/Sebastian, but I don't agree with your anticipated specs. I don't think it will have flash memory only, but perhaps a combination of flash and a hard drive. Yes, a hard drive has moving parts and eats up battery, but I think it's too soon to see a computer without one.

You also said that you weren't expecting to see this subnotebook until another year or two had passed, but the following quote is from the original rumor article on appleinsider...


Since that same article is one that this thread was created for, I'll say that we should go on the assumption that we'll see this subnotebook sometime this year if we see it all.

I'm also thinking that 3/16th of an inch, and especially 1/8th of an inch, is a bit small to be hoping for. Even if you wanted something that thin.

I seriously doubt that they would drop CAPS Lock, and I don't think that most people would want them to since people are used to it being there. It does occasionally have uses; if people do want to type in all caps for a while, it's irritating to hold the shift key down.

I would like to see a 2 GHz Dual Core processor, but if this notebook is to be a "true" subnotebook then they'll probably use an ULV processor for the extended battery life. If they are going as far as to say there might not be an optical drive for purposes of size and battery life, then I doubt they'll put a battery-consuming processor in there.

2 GB of RAM seems too much to hope for in a notebook this small, but I agree it's a possibility and I hope you're right.

In other words, I think you've set your sights too high for the type of computer that this article seems to talking about. Don't get me wrong, I'd much, MUCH rather see something like a 12" Macbook Pro come out than a subnotebook like this, but I don't think that's what this rumor is all about.

Cheers

yeah i would rather see a 12" mbp aswell, but it would cut into MacBook's market.

however, back to thread topic of subnotebook:
i noticed a lot of people have very very very high expectations for this "product". even though i think apple would make this item impressive, i dont think it will ultimately be revolutionary.

If it's a real project and it's a true subnote, it would not be in the same device class as the current MacBook. I'm pretty sure that an Apple subnote will be more expensive than MacBook too. I don't think it is going to "cannibalize' much of the market of any existing Mac, but rather find new markets and actually give Apple some actual traction in Japan as well.


I think it's fine. It really doesn't have to be revolutionary.

For a year or two from now, it sounds more than reasonable.

I see we have a difference of opinion on this one, but I do believe that if Apple enters the Sub notebook market, either in the time frame the article mentioned or the next year or two (by the way, I provided a few comments about if it was in the time frame so don't take the main list of specs to be the end all be all of what I'm communicating, after all, this is mostly what I'd like to see) that it will be all flash. Going by the track record that Flash Memory is currently going at, 64 GB on an SD Card (which is REALLY tiny, and a lot of it's size comes from the plastic so the chip is even smaller) and 128 GB on that same chip by years end, by the time Apple does enter the Sub Notebook market Flash can be all the way up to 256 GB on an SD Card. Currently the cheapest Macbook comes with a 60 GB HDD, and my Macbook, with an 80 GB HDD only had about 55 GB of the HDD out of the box (partly because 80 GB really means 74 GB, partly because of Mac OS X being so damn huge eating up around 20 GB) that if you were to use anything less then 64 GB for the Drive you wouldn't have much of a Usable drive (and I already ate through another 20 GB myself) which really sucks (and is why I need to upgrade to 200 GB eventually)

That being said, I honestly think Apple can enter the Market without a single moving part on their part (haha) and make things really simple, and ultra thin!



Since this is what i stated (though rather unclearly) to be the specs I would expect in the case that the Sub Notebook arrived sooner then I anticipated, this is the rather valid list of specs (modifying my other rather valid list ) that would be valid in the case that Apple does indeed validate a reason for making "around WWDC" a valid release date, then this is the valid list you should invalidate with your at the moment invalid argument (I went valid crazy on a friend who said you listed valid reasons, so I'm essentially repeating what I said there, only validly modified to make more sense )

The Caps lock is too large for what it does and only gets in the way. Maybe they could place it in a less annoying place (the second enter button next to the second command button is a possibility) , make shift a little smaller, move that up where Caps lock was, and drop the second command button, or make an F7 of it (Of all the Function keys, this is the one that I can't figure out and I can't seem to assign any application to make use of it, maybe when Leopard comes out Spaces can use it) so it would you know, stay out of the way. But it's an extra key that isn't really needed, and Holding Shift down is what I END UP DOING ANYWAYS WHEN I WANT TO TYPE SOMETHING IN ALL CAPS!!

2 Ghz in the time frame that I mentioned is not unreasonable, 2 Ghz maybe today is unreasonable, but for Sub notebooks of today, it's probably the next logical step, and in 5-6 months, it will no doubt make perfect sense. As for 2 GB of RAM, well I hope I'm right too, and if I have much of an argument to stand on, I believe Apple is preparing to move their Macbook's onto a Standard of 2 GB with their next revision (they did it with the Macbook Pro so I'm kind of Half Hoping on that one) and when this Sub Notebook arrives 2 GB will likely be standard across their product lines.


In other words, I think my spec sheet is perfectly reasonable, even the dumbed down ones for the "around WWDC" timeframe. It wouldn't cost very much for Apple to build (essentially a Macbook) until you arrive to the Flash Drive and LED screen, probably the most expensive pieces of the computer, but also the most valuable pieces because it allows them to make it almost 2 Dimensional, and I doubt even Sony has something THAT small. Either way, this isn't an official Spec Sheet, and even if it isn't I'm going to defend every aspect of it because I never realized how much I hated moving parts until I dropped my first Macbook while watching a Movie and my HDD died.

C'ya around
Sebastian

For now, as you said, his sights are too high, but as he said, in a year or two they won't be.

For a current unit, Flash as a unitary storage system would be too optimistic.

A low power cpu would also be in order, as you say, and they don't extend to 2GHz, at this time.

But, again, he's taking ideas that some have had here about a unit based on current technology, and moved it to a more realistic timeframe.

I've always said that thewre are bno such things as revolutionary products, just revolutionary ideas.

The same will be true with whatever Apple manages to come out with, assuming that they are planning something like this at all.

The iPhone is essentially what everyone wanted in one device (I remember back in the Chat room we were wondering if that was indeed what Apple was trying to do) with the Widescreen Touch iPod (I just about cried out laughing because of the way he said it, speaking directly to the rumor boards) a Phone (I had that same moment as I just about had because it was again, a call (pun intended) to the rumor boards) and an Internet Communications device (on this one I stopped and said "Huh?") and Apple went beyond everyone's expectations.

When I saw him give a demo I was even more impressed because it was hundreds of times better then anyone else thought.

So far NOTHING on this Thread comes close to what Apple can and WILL deliver IF they indeed make this into a real product (which in my opinion, they will because Apple's notebook lines are selling better then the Desktop and it would be filling a very powerful Niche for Ultra Portable 'books) so I don't believe any expectations are out of control here. A bit higher then normal, but when Apple decides to do something, they go all the way really fast (example, it took about 7 months to get all Macs on the Intel Architecture) and don't hold back (another example: iPhone) until they decide it's a really great product and it's the best they can possibly do in a reasonable time frame, and maybe a bit higher then normal price but that'll pay for itself eventually.

Sebastian

And probably killed any backing I had for a reasonable Time Frame by a more up to date post... 8)

Sebastian

You get what you pay for!

Yep, but the day Apple releases a Notebook that is anywhere from 3/16" to 1/8" thin, I'll pay anything I have to

Sebastian

I would be afraid of it. It would bend real easy. Too delicate.

OK, I'll join the spec fest.

12" widescreen or less display, LED backlight (thinner, brighter, richer color)
ULV Core 2 Duo 2.2 GHz
1GB RAM
50, 100 or 60, 120GB 1.8" HDD
Santa Rosa 800 MHz mobo
Intel integrated graphics (next generation)
512MB or 1GB flash memory (Robson)
AirPort Extreme 802.11b/g/n, Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
External SuperDrive, USB 2.0

0.75" thin, 2 lbs., 12 hour battery life.

Which cpu are you talking about?

For 12 hour battery life, I don't see a 120 GB HD.

What I would like to see is SATA E for external drives, including the DVD. They are coming out with SATA optical drives, though I don't know if there are any thin, low power, models available yet.

Otherwise, yes.

Hmm... maybe Aluminum wouldn't be too bendy. I'm afraid I have limited experience Handling the older brother of the Macbook though so I'm not sure.

Hopefully Apple will choose a sturdier material then plastic though.

Sebastian

TOO THICK!!
My own Macbook is just over an inch thick, 3/4 of an Inch is too large, especially with a 12" screen. It takes the hold point of a Sub notebook away.
You're still suggesting Moving parts, and that's plain crazy. It even at 3/4" it would be too fragile. To make it successful it has to be really thin, but if it uses any parts that are too large for a thin environment then it just makes it fragile (another reason I decided against Moving parts)
Your idea suggest Santa Rosa, but you make no mention of WiMax. And there is no 2.2Ghz Core 2 Duo.

Sebastian

Save Express Card slots and eSATA for that dock

Sebastian

Optical drives reach nowhere near the bandwidths to make SATA useful, which is why machines *whether laptops or desktops *typically have a PATA bridge for the optical drive. The one big reason I can think of to have an SATA optical drive is to get rid of that bridge.

From: chron.com dated 2-16-07
...Steve Jobs told the crowd about his vision for textbook-free schools in the future. Textbooks would be replaced with a free, online information source that was constantly updated by experts, much like the online encyclopedia Wikipedia.

"I think we'd have far more current material available to our students, and we'd be freeing up a tremendous amount of funds that we could buy delivery vehicles with computers, faster Internet, things like that," Jobs said. "And I also think we'd get some of the best minds in the country contributing."

Save trees, support digital ebooks. A sub notebook with eInk technology will save battery life. It is past time for students to be using luggage to transport books. Have you noticed the use of backpacks and luggage on wheels students need to carry books?

PeaceGreen

Speaking of Wheels, books, Education, and connecting to the Internet
Click here

Sebastian

Why are you assuming moving parts=fragile? One word: iPod. Thinner than any ultralight, yet the hard drives hold up fine, except when subjected to too much shock. Other, non-moving parts are more likely to give problems with too-thin laptops, for instance the LCD glass, which could break if flexed too much or it the laptop is dropped. 3/4" does not make an subnotebook pointless. Many subnotebooks are thicker than that right now. Sony's TX series is 1" thick. Dell's subnotebook is 1.2. Try to distinguish between what you personally want and what's really necessary.


Except PATA is not hot-pluggable. External drives must be hot-pluggable or at least warm-pluggable. This could be circumvented by using Firewire or USB 2.0. Besides, nobody said the eSATA connector would be only for the optical drive. It could just as easily allow you to connect external hard drives, which could definitely benefit from the extra bandwidth. But even Firewire 400 is a too slow for today's 3.5" SATA hard drives. You'd need Firewire 800, and that's nearly dead as an interface. eSATA is the only interface with headroom for drives in the next few years.

I would guess that computer technology is far more resourse intensive and does more damage to the environment than producing books: save the planet and don't buy computers. \

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