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Apple to re-enter the sub-notebook market - Page 3

post #81 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmardian View Post

If they announce it in June and it ships in August that's half a year of NAND flash price erosion. If you extrapolate the current price trend, that means it will cost about $200 instead of $300. How much do hard drives cost Apple? Probably $50. So the increase in price would be about $150. And the markup isn't 100%. It's around 45% (see iSupplie iMac tear-down). So the extra cost to the consumer will be about $215

OK, though it it's a BTO option, I'd expect that upgrading to that drive to be about as expensive as the drive by itself anywhere else.

Quote:
which is well worth it for the power, noise, and space savings.

I wouldn't go that far. Current notebook hard drives don't consume much power or generate much noise, and the typical 1.8" drives used in a subnote are even thriftier with power and don't make much noise either. My first gen MBP doesn't make any audible difference when it's flailing the hard drive, nor does that part of the notebook get very warm.

Even when assuming the hard drive is on and running most of the time (which is not typical), I think I calculated that a typical 2.5" drive would last about 30 hours on a MBP battery.

Current notebook flash drives aren't any smaller that I've seen either. I still have a hard time believing that a 32GB drive would be useful in an OS X system for reasons I've already noted. A shipping Leopard install + iLife, etc. is probably going to take even more space. Apple would have to really slim down their installations.
post #82 of 249
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/The_Children's_Machine

I had a chance to see the $100 laptop in person last night. Talk about a cool machine. No moving parts! Sure, the specs are low, but it really gets you thinking. No optical, camera, instant-on (NAND), and really small. Plus, the screen swivles for laptop, tablet, or 'tv' modes. If you have a chance to see this computer, take it. They are predicting 100 million users (all linux-based) in a few years.

Anyhow, when you make a computer this small, the purpose of it really changes. IMO, it will not be anyone's main machine. You begin to enter the area of appliances. So, I think it would be very wise for Apple to create something that included instant-on NAND drives. A dual mode display would be great too. I'd love to carry around a Mac that did not need to rest on a surface. I'd use it for note taking, calendar, etc. If it ran full-blown apps, then that would be great too.
post #83 of 249
I'm glad Apple are **finally** following my lead when I made the worlds smallest and lightest (Apple hardware) Sub-notebook/ultramobile tablet pc about 6 months ago.

Check out my design based on a heavily modifed MacMini here; http://homepage.mac.com/peter_green/MMP_MkIII_Tablet/


I bet the Apple one will be great!! :-)
post #84 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormchild View Post

This is a little off topic, but you guys can probably stop mentioning in every single article that Apple is based in Cupertino. We don't need the filler; just the news, please. Article's already long enough.

Forget it! This has been mentioned for years.
post #85 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by umijin View Post

I've been hammering on this point for the last... YEAR on my blog and other places for a long time. We need this in Japan - desperately. But I have to wonder what took so freaking long?

Japan is the number 2 consumer market in the world, and Apple is getting killed there. It's not just the infatuation with cute. It's the whole way we go to work - without cars. Sure, some people do drive but most of us use mass transportation. So, we gotta carry our laptops. Even the 12" G4 PowerBook is porky by Wintel standards.

To be honest, it doesn't have to have have NAND or all these other features to be light. The tech is already out there. But it should have come around nine months ago, not in June. That's the problem. Hopefully, my own 12" G4 will limp through the next couple months until this thing comes out.

Japan is also one of the worst computer markets the past few years. Sales everywhere else is up, but in Japan sales are down.

That's not just for Apple, it's the general computer market. Sony's subnotebooks aren't doing well their either. No reason why Apple's would.
post #86 of 249
Quote:
I don't think that stretching the product line would result in less profit.

Mel I remember not too long ago when ever someone mentioned Apple increasing its product line you would mention the 90's when their product line had too many machines.

Quote:
While it might bite slightly into the low end MBP, it would likely generate much more in sales that they would lose.

I think its fine to add where demand is most prominent. But I think it would be inefficient and wasteful if they stretched into areas of less demand only to cover all bases.
post #87 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by artypete View Post

I'm glad Apple are **finally** following my lead when I made the worlds smallest and lightest (Apple hardware) Sub-notebook/ultramobile tablet pc about 6 months ago.

Check out my design based on a heavily modifed MacMini here; http://homepage.mac.com/peter_green/MMP_MkIII_Tablet/


I bet the Apple one will be great!! :-)

Hahaha. That is neat. Nice little DIY project there. Size of a showbox...but kinda neat anyhow
post #88 of 249
JeffDM:

The iPhone runs OSX and it only has 8GB. There must be a lite version of OSX that they will use for a sub machine, along with widget apps, perhaps?

 

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post #89 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Hey I am no expert on Japanese culture but from what you say and what I have seen of some Japanese idea of TV entertainment there must be a dual standard. They have the cruelest sense of humor in game shows I have ever seen. Apple ads seem tame next to making contestants crawl through tubes filled with slime and / or insects and so forth. I am not criticizing simply pointing out your generalization of the Japanese reaction to Apple ads doesn't seem to add up to me.

Japanese culture is odd. They are one of the most arrogant, along with some other Asian cultures, such as the Chinese, where they got their civilization from, but are full of "shame" as far as their own internal culture goes. They are actually afraid to let their differences become public. That's why they operate by "consensus" where everyone ostensibly has to agree for anything to get done. Of course, consensus really doesn't work, but it makes them feel good, pretending it does.

So they don't like public displays of discord, even in ads. It's too disturbing.It plays to their sense of powerlessness towards those above themselves.

Very odd.
post #90 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Out of curiosity, how many subnotes use discrete video chips? The ones I've seen are all integrated video. I think you simply don't have realistic expectations given the device class. Let's just say it to get it out of the way, you probably will never like the the subnotebook class of computers enough to actually buy one.

Pretty much.
post #91 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski View Post

Apple buys like half the world's flash supply. They get it at a massive discount. And if they can put 8 GB of it in a $250 iPod, they can put 16/32 in a MacBook. Flash costs Apple like $10 a GB or so, therefore at least 16 GB should be easy to get into a laptop, and 32 GB is possible.



That makes no sense whatsoever. You're equating a software issue with a hardware option. ZFS's boot issues have absolutely nothing to do with being on a hard drive or being on flash. Apple could just as easily stick their bootloader on a separate HDD partition.

And there's no evidence that 10.5 uses ZFS as its primary filesystem or even has that option. It just has support for ZFS. It might only use it for Time Machine drives or compatibility with some forthcoming Apple product that does use it.

ZFS does to seem to be, at a minimum, an option for 10.5.

I agree with you about the rest.
post #92 of 249
Looks like Apple is finally plugging some oversize holes its product line-up-- first the 15" MB, now a subnotebook. Nice job Steve & Co. 8)

So much for the 'Apple doesn't need to be all things to all people' argument, correct on the face of it, but always taken to an extreme and always used to shoot down requests for even the most obvious and needed expansions to Apple's product line.

Who knows... at this rate we may even see a minitower before the year is out. Most of the other product line taboos seems to be breaking.

Go Apple!


.
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post #93 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmardian View Post

It would cost Apple about $300. I think that price is enabling.

It would cost Apple more than that. At least $450, if not more. Final cost to the consumer is at least double, and usually triple.

Flash, as currently manufacturered, is slower than HD's in ALL areas other than random acess. They are no full time solution now. In another year, we will begin to see viable solutions.

Here's one:

http://samsung.com/PressCenter/Press...911_0000286481
post #94 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmardian View Post

If they announce it in June and it ships in August that's half a year of NAND flash price erosion. If you extrapolate the current price trend, that means it will cost about $200 instead of $300. How much do hard drives cost Apple? Probably $50. So the increase in price would be about $150. And the markup isn't 100%. It's around 45% (see iSupplie iMac tear-down). So the extra cost to the consumer will be about $215 - which is well worth it for the power, noise, and space savings.

Your numbers are all wrong. Markup is 100% to 200%.

Forget iSupply, their numbers have usually been shown to be wrong as well.
post #95 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

JeffDM:

The iPhone runs OSX and it only has 8GB. There must be a lite version of OSX that they will use for a sub machine, along with widget apps, perhaps?

Why would they need a lite version for a sub-notebook?

It would have a full speed cpu, a built-in gpu via Intel, which is still much better than what is in the iPhone, sufficient RAM, and a full size HD, of at least 30GB, if not more.
post #96 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

What if:

Dual screen, with the second screen serving as a dual touch input interface that can be programmable?

iPhone has it... Why not?


Man, I am dreaming already.

and drooling

The first thought I had too. I mean those other sub-notebooks are fixed in plasic?
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post #97 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by artypete View Post

I'm glad Apple are **finally** following my lead when I made the worlds smallest and lightest (Apple hardware) Sub-notebook/ultramobile tablet pc about 6 months ago.

Check out my design based on a heavily modifed MacMini here; http://homepage.mac.com/peter_green/MMP_MkIII_Tablet/


I bet the Apple one will be great!! :-)


Very Nice (Think Borat).
post #98 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It would cost Apple more than that. At least $450, if not more. Final cost to the consumer is at least double, and usually triple.

Flash, as currently manufacturered, is slower than HD's in ALL areas other than random acess. They are no full time solution now. In another year, we will begin to see viable solutions.

Here's one:

http://samsung.com/PressCenter/Press...911_0000286481

Extract from the article:

Quote:
A key advantage in PRAM is its extremely fast performance. Because PRAM can rewrite data without having to first erase data previously accumulated, it is effectively 30-times faster than conventional flash memory. Incredibly durable, PRAM is also expected to have at least 10-times the life span of flash memory.

Sounds very interesting.
post #99 of 249
I opted for the PB 3400. It worked well but was really heavy. Always loved the form factor of the 2400.
post #100 of 249
I am sure they think that NAND-flash booting is more important than a DVD drive, but I really don't agree. Not that I use my DVD drive that much, but I really don't think it takes that long to boot either, so I would rather have the drive for watching movies on flights and such. Just look at the competition from Panasonic:

2lb and no drive, 10.4" screen:
http://www.dynamism.com/r6/main.shtml

2.8lb and no drive, 12.1" screen:
http://www.dynamism.com/t5/main.shtml

and the real killer:

3.3lb, drive, 14.1" screen
http://www.dynamism.com/y5/main.shtml

So there are plenty of computers out there at different option levels that all are pretty lightweight. No reason to restrict yourself to something ultra-tiny like a 10" screen just to get rid of weight.
post #101 of 249
The exclusion of an optical drive is deal breaker for me since this would be the laptop I use on flights across the country and I need to be able to watch DVD's!
post #102 of 249
You don't need DVDs to watch video while you travel. Get a utility like Mac the Ripper or Handbrake, and rip your DVDs to your computer. A two hour movie can be stored in a file that is less than 1GB and is of a reasonable quality. Once you've ripped your movies (or TV shows), archive the files on DVD-R or an external hard drive (you know, the one that you will need to use Time Machine) so that you don't have to hold hundreds of hours of video on your notebook. Before you go on a trip, load any video that you would like to watch while you're away to your notebook's hard drive. And as an added bonus, you don't have to carry a bunch of DVDs around with you. Do you carry CDs around because you want to listen to music? Then why would you do so for video? Optical drives on portable devices are completely unnecessary.
post #103 of 249
I have to believe that Jobs & Co have something clever in mind for this thing and some way to tie iPod into it... what if the device had only a small internal flash drive, say 8 GB. What about then using iPod and it's 30-80 GB hard drive for other storage? Could they bring firewire back to iPod and maybe beef up the little hard drive to handle the increased workload? For long flights you could use iPod as your iTunes library and not require a DVD drive on the laptop to watch movies. Maybe iTunes 8 will have a better ability to use iPod as the source for media, rather than just as a peripheral device with which to sync. A huge advantage to this would be that iPod has its own battery, and as such would not detract from the subnotebook's battery life.

A lot of ideas in one block paragraph. Apologies, but its all only half thought out.

Oh, and if this thing is for real, I really want the ability to hook up to a projector for presentations without having to remember that stupid dongle adapter thing that I must use with my iBook.
post #104 of 249
ok heres my input on this subnotebook:

if apple releases a tablet of anytime, it will be incorperated in this machine, they want to give a reason for people to buy their subnotebook over sony, and do something not done in the mainstream (Think Different). that being said, the form factor, i believe, will be clamshell style, and the screen will be able to fold all the way back to rest againt the bottom of the notebook, so it can be used as a tablet. or, apple could just leave the tablet stuff out and just go for a really solid product, that does its simple job really really well without any new features, just to get their feet wet again in this product space again (but i still think they want the wow)

price point will be at least $1899 US dollars, there needs to be a spread between the macbooks, and flash memory is pretty expensive.

as features go, i believe apple will make them pretty impressive, as apple aims for the "wow" everytime.
processor: 1.66 or 1.33 ghz (remember, its a subnotebook)
RAM: 1gb
GPU: GMA 3000
HD: Flash 32 Gb
battery: longer than you expect (for some reason, i have this idea in my head that apple has been working on amazing battery tech behind the scenes...)

just to keep this clear also, people may recall my posts on previous threads saying no way will there be a 13" or 12" MBP. for the record, this is a subnotebook, not a PB 12" replacement or sucessor, its a different animal in and of itself
post #105 of 249
With timemachine being tweeked so that a subnote book could be picked up and have all 1st level apps and files onboard and current and an index that would enable it to reach back and grab additional files from afar this could be positioned as a must have accessery to every desktop sold.

Work from a 8 core or whatever suits you, mini to iMac, with dual 30"s and be able to walk away with a sub 24oz. object the size of a spiral notebook with all the implied capacities we know they can offer.
post #106 of 249
Oh man have I wanted something like this!
If this came out I'd sell my mbp on ebay and grab one of these and a 20-24" imac, I'd be big pimpin!
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post #107 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmedia1 View Post

The exclusion of an optical drive is deal breaker for me since this would be the laptop I use on flights across the country and I need to be able to watch DVD's!

I watch lots of movies and shows on the go and during lunchtime at work with my 12" PB. I can't remember the last time I actually played one from a DVD. Come into the 21st century. Even lowly video iPods can play back 640x480 files, which I defy anyone to distinguish from DVD quality on an 11" high-resolution screen. I rip to h.264 myself when I need a movie on the go. 700MB for two hours, no noticeable quality loss, unlike DivX or Xvid.
post #108 of 249
I would love it if this were a tablet-sized iPhone, running OS X with MultiTouch, with voip.
post #109 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmedia1 View Post

The exclusion of an optical drive is deal breaker for me since this would be the laptop I use on flights across the country and I need to be able to watch DVD's!

Running an optical drive has a massive impact on battery consumption. As so many other people have said.. rip to iTunes and watch your movies from there.

sthiede:
Quote:
battery: longer than you expect (for some reason, i have this idea in my head that apple has been working on amazing battery tech behind the scenes...)

I really wish that was true, but the iPhone battery specs don't really indicate that they are any more advanced than anyone else. All they can do is optimise power management in the OS, they are still limited to the same existing battery hardware as everyone else. It's just a good job that XP and Vistas power management sucks so Apple appear to have better performance!
post #110 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef View Post

I would love it if this were a tablet-sized iPhone, running OS X with MultiTouch, with voip.

Would you really want your phone to be tablet sized? That would suck! The iPhone will support "desktop class applications". To me that says Skype and other VoIP applications currently running on OS X will be supported. I just don't think Apple will spell that out too much and annoy their carriers.
post #111 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinDrift View Post

Extract from the article:



Sounds very interesting.

Yes, it does. But, we will still have to wait another year until these new memory types begin to be available. There is nothing being manufactured now that is suitable.
post #112 of 249
There is always the chance the information is being twisted/exagerated and we are really just talking about a 13.3" MacBook Pro which would naturally be thinner and lighter than it's 13.3" MacBook companion.

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post #113 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

There is always the chance the information is being twisted/exagerated and we are really just talking about a 13.3" MacBook Pro which would naturally be thinner and lighter than it's 13.3" MacBook companion.

It's very possible. hiow many times in the past three years have we had "certain" rumoer of this type?

I remember participating in more than one thread like this here.

But, just like that million monkeys trying out the works of Shakespeare, some rumors come true simply because there are so many of them, and because they are all over the place.
post #114 of 249
Hey there everyone,

First off, I'm pretty excited about this new subnotebook. I know it's not "official" yet, but it does seem to be a fairly concrete rumor.

I was wondering what you all think the specs/price will be. So far we've had I think 3 people give spec predictions, and only about 2 people give a price prediction (around $1999 I think was said).

Personally I'd rather have a slightly heavier, slightly larger notebook with discrete graphics (I.e. the oft-rumored 12" MBP), but something like this would be great as well, though I am 90% certain that it won't have discrete graphics. Hopefully we'll get the new GMA x3000 instead of the 950 though, that would be nice.

I would hope to see it for $1700, but I expect more like $2100.

I would hope for 2 GB RAM, but I'm expecting 512MB or maybe 1 GB.

I think I'd prefer a Hard Drive with some Flash Memory, but so long as I've got at least 30 GB left over for my stuff after Leopard and iLife are on there, it won't be a big deal to me. Honestly I'm not all that well read on this subject, so I don't have a good opinion.

I'd guess 11.1" screen, similar to the Sony TX series.

I would hope to see the Core 2 Duo processor here, with the Santa Rosa upgrade that's coming in April, but if its to be a "true" subnotebook then we'll probably see a ULV processor. What's the best one of those out there now?

Anyway, I wanted to know what everyone else thought.
post #115 of 249
The general consensus of this thread seems to be that there'll be less than 32g of flash memory in there. That makes no sense to me at all! Apple has regularly stressed how media is such a huge focus of their efforts. with 32g you can't use it for media. That wouldn't hold my songs alone, not to mention movies, pictures, etc... The macbook only comes as low as 60g. Hell, even the appleTV comes with 40g and that's just an accessory. If flash is really going to continue to be as expensive as everyone says, i think this'll have ab 80g hard drive. I know, someone will respond quickly to say that a subnotebook is an accessory too, but I respectfully and vigorously disagree. I know MANY students who want a sub-notebook (which, yes, is just a smaller notebook, NOT a whole new breed or whatever someone above said) for all of their computing needs.
post #116 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGregor View Post

C'mon, a small keyboard should be fine for even big fingered types, especially if Apple has innovated smarter keys ('a la iPhone software) that take out obvious errors! Also no one should expect to type War and Peace on these things ... they are for travel and ubermobility!

escher ... where is escher!

I personally see this as more of a small aluminum macbookpro rather than a macbook - so that the extra costs for flash memory make more sense.

Believe it or not, I spotted Escher over here!
post #117 of 249
Why is the discussion between HD or Flash memory. No way is Flash memory enough for a Mac. Maybe it will have 16 gigs of flash, but it needs 100 gigs of storage for music, etc. This would be a Mac for pete's sake.

Why not have a mix of memories, sort of a multi-memory hydrid using an as of yet unannounced core technology called CoreMemory that uses RAM, Flash, HD in an optimised way so that it simulated the "always on" feel without running power and cost out the window. It would be the next big "multi-" thing after multi-processors, multi-threading and mulit-cores.

Also I could see the dual screen clamshell with one side being an iPhone like situation with virtual keyboard and .... hey .... MULTI-TOUCH!?!? This is the Year of the Multi-Everything!!

Anyway ... I have regular sized hands I think and a keyboard that only had QWERTY with no numbers or function keys until you hit a "numbers/function" button ('a la the iPhone keyboard) that remapped the keyboard to those, could comfortable reside in an 8" diagonal wide-screen rectangle. It would be plenty big for 95% of what you need a keyboard to do and would support a 9-10" screen on the top of the clamshell. All in about 0.5" thick and you have the subnotebook I would be interested in purchasing. The size and weight of a paperback book, the PocketMac!!!

It could also do almost anything a tablet could do.
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post #118 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGregor View Post

Why is the discussion between HD or Flash memory. No way is Flash memory enough for a Mac. Maybe it will have 16 gigs of flash, but it needs 100 gigs of storage for music, etc. This would be a Mac for pete's sake.

Why not have a mix of memories, sort of a multi-memory hydrid using an as of yet unannounced core technology called CoreMemory that uses RAM, Flash, HD in an optimised way so that it simulated the "always on" feel without running power and cost out the window. It would be the next big "multi-" thing after multi-processors, multi-threading and mulit-cores.

Also I could see the dual screen clamshell with one side being an iPhone like situation with virtual keyboard and .... hey .... MULTI-TOUCH!?!? This is the Year of the Multi-Everything!!

Anyway ... I have regular sized hands I think and a keyboard that only had QWERTY with no numbers or function keys until you hit a "numbers/function" button ('a la the iPhone keyboard) that remapped the keyboard to those, could comfortable reside in an 8" diagonal wide-screen rectangle. It would be plenty big for 95% of what you need a keyboard to do and would support a 9-10" screen on the top of the clamshell. All in about 0.5" thick and you have the subnotebook I would be interested in purchasing. The size and weight of a paperback book, the PocketMac!!!

It could also do almost anything a tablet could do.

a lot of people (including me) like tactile response when im typing.


as for someone else above who was disagreeing we me about a sub-notebook being different from what the 12" powerbook was:

-one is a more compact professional portable

-one is a highly compact and mobile on-the-go machine, not expected to do everything a desktop or other laptops for that matter can do.

the first of which is the 12" pb, the latter is what this rumor is discussing. so people complaining about flash not being large enough to hold music libraries and other media, one its not suppoesed to, and two, um hello ipod? also, this by no means should operate as a person's sole computer, well at least not without external hd, and other accesories. there are sacrifices for portability.
post #119 of 249
While I can see the exclusion of the optical drive useful for conserving battery, this does come at a disadvantage:

- How do you install software that is on a CD/DVD?
- How do you reinstall the OS from its DVDs?

You would need to get an external drive to do both.
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post #120 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGregor View Post

Why is the discussion between HD or Flash memory. No way is Flash memory enough for a Mac. Maybe it will have 16 gigs of flash, but it needs 100 gigs of storage for music, etc. This would be a Mac for pete's sake.

Why not have a mix of memories, sort of a multi-memory hydrid using an as of yet unannounced core technology called CoreMemory that uses RAM, Flash, HD in an optimised way so that it simulated the "always on" feel without running power and cost out the window. It would be the next big "multi-" thing after multi-processors, multi-threading and mulit-cores.

Also I could see the dual screen clamshell with one side being an iPhone like situation with virtual keyboard and .... hey .... MULTI-TOUCH!?!? This is the Year of the Multi-Everything!!

Anyway ... I have regular sized hands I think and a keyboard that only had QWERTY with no numbers or function keys until you hit a "numbers/function" button ('a la the iPhone keyboard) that remapped the keyboard to those, could comfortable reside in an 8" diagonal wide-screen rectangle. It would be plenty big for 95% of what you need a keyboard to do and would support a 9-10" screen on the top of the clamshell. All in about 0.5" thick and you have the subnotebook I would be interested in purchasing. The size and weight of a paperback book, the PocketMac!!!

It could also do almost anything a tablet could do.

In December 2006, Toshiba released a 100 GB, 1.8" HD which they claim consumes 3mW per GB or 300 mW for the drive. I too think that a combination of flash and hard drives will show up.

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2006_12/pr0501.htm
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