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Apple's Jobs blasts teachers unions - Page 5

post #161 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribulation View Post

In my school, 100% of the students obtain free meals. This includes breakfast, snack, lunch, and after-school snack. Taxpayers pay for it all. Are you willing to quadruple your taxes to pay for prime rib for each of these meals? I think not.


Well that's not really what I meant. By junk I mean take out all pop machines, junk food, and serve them actual real nutritious foods. Preferably not pre-packaged chemical filled garbage. But just take all the junk food out and that's a good start. There are schools that do it. It wouldn't cost anymore than what they're already paying if they just put the energy into it. Kids perform better in school when they eat better.
post #162 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpparedisni View Post

After all, Stossel is such an unbiased, informed source himself (yeah, right)...Nobody in the mainstream media bothered to call him on his flawed reporting, but the points made by those being linked to are valid. Just because something is on TV doesn't automatically make it accurate and fair. Stossel is notorious for this kind of skewed reporting, and he banks on people taking it hook, line and sinker.

Perhaps you could view his opinion simply as balance to the opinions coming from the other side.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #163 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribulation View Post

Agreed. At least in CA, a student can't be held back more than once. So even if he is in 6th grade and cannot read, if he's been held back before, he goes on regardless.

Just when is an individual responsible for his deficiencies?
post #164 of 294
Steve is totally 100% right. From an outside perspective, the arrangement of USA public schools in INSANE and WRONG and HURTS CHILDREN.

America is a rich country. We spend a lot of money on education. Personally, I went to a private school that cost $10k per year. Guess what, public schools ALSO cost $10k per year. I can tell you, my private school was wonderful. The teachers loved it. They were nonunion. The kids were happy, we had tons of supplies and the school was almost luxurious.

One thing interfering in public school budgets is so-called "special education" which is really a new phenomenon that is overgrown in America compared to other countries. Our first priority should be normal classrooms, because that's where the payoff happens. Sorry.

All I'm trying to show you is that for what public schools cost, the private sector can create a wonderful product. In 1978, the government de-regulated airlines. Today, it is time to deregulate schools (with the voucher program so opposed by teachers). This is the key to allowing all people to enjoy a private school education, just like they enjoy privately made films, TV, food, shelter and other life necessities.

So, chin up. You don't need to use public schools. It is a predictable phenomenon that public schools under union control will crumble, devolve and suffer gross inefficiency. If you study dynamic systems, you can model this mathematically. You may notice the plight of GM, Ford and Chrysler. But their unions do not even begin to compare with the mighty power of the National Educator Association (NEA), a large corporate monster whose shareholders are the teachers. Union damage is a definable area of mathematics, and Steve probably knows this.

It's not a money shortage. American has excellent universities, companies and nonprofit organizations. Mediocrity cannot survive unless there is something keeping it alive. In this case, it's the NEA, who are EVIL and should be destroyed for the good of our kids.

Teachers probably don't agree. They have good salaries especially when you include retirement benefits and 3 to 4 months off every year (NEA meetings are strictly vacations, ethically). But teachers' welfare is a total distraction. Who cares what they want... screw them (and indeed, screw me. my employer is what matters when it comes to its governance). Teachers should be wary of acting like their opinion is more important than the users of their system.

The ultimate measure of success is NOT how happy the teachers are. But rather, how effective the school is. My school was exceptional. Schools that aren't good should be allowed to fail, close, and be replaced by private bidders. You might think inner city kids can't be taught for $15k a year they cost. I believe otherwise, because I have seen otherwise in the private sector.
post #165 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribulation View Post

After school, I have to walk my students out to get picked up (those that don't stay for day care). When their parents drive up in $60k+ SUVs or a Lexus, it's pretty ridiculous. A very sad situation. Their parents take no responsibility for them, they never do homework, and in turn, don't learn much of anything. Is that my fault?? ABSOLUTELY not. A teacher can only do so much with what they are given, especially when the parents don't give a crap about them.

I agree with what you're saying, but sort of unrelated to that: just because someone drives a 60K car doesn't mean they have lots of money. It's pretty much the American way to buy stuff you don't have the money to pay for and then spend the rest of your life making payments on it and go into unrecoverable debt. American's don't seem to know Jack about managing their money.
post #166 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Steve is totally 100% right. From an outside perspective, the arrangement of USA public schools in INSANE and WRONG and HURTS CHILDREN.

...

...

...

...

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The ultimate measure of success is NOT how happy the teachers are. But rather, how effective the school is. My school was exceptional. Schools that aren't good should be allowed to fail, close, and be replaced by private bidders. You might think inner city kids can't be taught for $15k a year they cost. I believe otherwise, because I have seen otherwise in the private sector.

I totally agree.
post #167 of 294
Excellent post, Crazygopher. People outside of teaching have no clue about what it's actually like.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

every 6 years.

Treat them like Senators. After 6 years they have to be re-tested, along-side all in academia which will test their qualifications.

You obviously have no clue about being a teacher - they ALREADY DO EXACTLY THIS for teachers, only it's more often than every six years. To stay a teacher, you pretty much have to keep taking classes on a regular basis.

And imagine if every industry was like this - how many of you have mandatory testing/education (out of your own pocket, no less) to keep your job?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

If they wanted more money, they should have been smart enough to work hard and get on at a private school where most of the teaching takes place in the U.S. today. Sorry guys/gals, but that is the truth. With my niece starting K this year, I had to eat crow on the public school systems after reviewing options (I use to think the opposite), because they are so bad at what they do as a whole.

Except that private schools generally pay *worse* than public schools. Private schools provide a better eduation because they keep out the poor kids. Sad but true.
post #168 of 294
Heh, I changed the end of my post but right on, thanks.


About teacher salary discussions, don't forget the typical excellent health care and defined-benefit (often inflation protected) retirement benefits. These benefits are the reason why airlines declared bankruptcy and automakers may also. The old fashioned union structure is severely outdated now. Since public schools can't file for bankruptcy, their costs simply rise and they have "budget crunches." This is not to say they don't have huge amounts of money. They do. But it is being used for a broken compensation system.

A defined benefit, inflation-proof retirement pension of $30,000 is worth around $500,000. Don't forget to distribute this over a teacher's salary. Too often, this is "hidden" income for teachers (and govt workers) that people out in the private sector basically never get anymore. A $50k teacher salary can be more like $100k when you make an honest comparison (again, including vacation time).

I used to work my ass off for $45k working 49 weeks x 5 days, or 245 work days a year. IN order to work let's say 200 days, I would take a further 20% salary cut. Teachers have the best schedules of any worker.... period. This need not change. But the union structure remains deeply harmful to kids.
post #169 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

All I'm trying to show you is that for what public schools cost, the private sector can create a wonderful product. In 1978, the government de-regulated airlines. Today, it is time to deregulate schools (with the voucher program so opposed by teachers). This is the key to allowing all people to enjoy a private school education, just like they enjoy privately made films, TV, food, shelter and other life necessities.

I am totally in favor of vouchers.
I have two kids. One in private school and one infant.
My wife's a teacher in public school. One of the wealthiest in California and great school district. Unfortunately, we live in a different neighbor and we can't take our kids to her school. My district La Jolla is part of San Diego schools district that are a completely mess. Teachers are bad paid and the classrooms are old and falling apart in La Jolla. (Hey, this is a wealthy neighborhood).

Since my kids are and will be in private schools, I should either get vouchers or a discount on my property taxes. It's just crazy that I save the government good money for having my kids on a private school and I still get stuck pay the same taxes. Same applies to families without kids or single people without kids.

It's a huge discussion on my household. My wife's says that vouchers would kill public schools and destroy the current system. She says there is no money and schools are in trouble. In her case because her district is wealthy and still hard the way it is. But imagine in a poor district. she tells me.

So I am really not sure if this will ever happen or if the system will ever change. I agree with Jobs point but since education is such a touchy subject for teachers, unions and the government, I have hard time believing we will see any changes in the near future.
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post #170 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaPeaJay View Post

I agree with what you're saying, but sort of unrelated to that: just because someone drives a 60K car doesn't mean they have lots of money.

Yes, that's definitely true. Most of us live out of our means, I won't argue with that. And I have no problem with people having nice things, except when they spend money on unneeded things and make me foot the bill. When I see a student of mine getting into a $60k (more or less) car with 3-4+ other brothers/sisters, all of which have had their 4 school meals completely paid for by me/us (taxes) - that's my major problem. The school I'm at has over 3,500 kids, and 100% are on the free-lunch program. Not one of them brings any money to pay for their lunch; their parents have applied for the program very intentionally by filling out the proper forms - it's not by accident.

I have 2 children, both in elementary school. Each and every day I send a snack with them, and either a homemade lunch or money to buy a lunch at school. I also foot the bill for their daycare/afterschool program. I wouldn't expect to get this for free, but obviously this is a different mindset for some people. And I do understand that there are plenty of valid times that reduced or free lunch programs make sense, and many families do deserve this. But in my area, this is just not the case.

Back to my original example, most of their cars cost more than I'd make in a year. So do they really need/deserve 4 free meals, school supplies, daycare, and more? Seriously, how much does a pencil cost? Just out of principal, can't these damn parents even buy a single pencil to send? No - because we supply it for free. That's what is wrong with our system.

I won't even get into the other tax-funded programs that go on. Spanish translators for parent/teacher conferences, ESL programs (if you don't know what that whole thing is, it means "English as a Second Language") - which all of my students are on. Mind you, this isn't the projects or a low-income slummy area; this is merely what is happening in much of the Southwest with the rise of the hispanic illegal immigration epidemic.

Not to get off topic, but I think this goes to the very root of the problem. When you have a class full of non-english speaking children, no matter how good of a teacher you are, how can you be expected to have their test scores on par with a native english speaking population? And when they aren't, am I really the one that deserves to be fired?
post #171 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Private schools provide a better eduation because they keep out the poor kids. Sad but true.

I would say private schools are better because they aren't required to 'graduate' all students like they publics schools do. If you don't pass your class, you fail.
post #172 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Heh, I changed the end of my post but right on, thanks.


About teacher salary discussions, don't forget the typical excellent health care and defined-benefit (often inflation protected) retirement benefits. These benefits are the reason why airlines declared bankruptcy and automakers may also. The old fashioned union structure is severely outdated now. Since public schools can't file for bankruptcy, their costs simply rise and they have "budget crunches." This is not to say they don't have huge amounts of money. They do. But it is being used for a broken compensation system.

A defined benefit, inflation-proof retirement pension of $30,000 is worth around $500,000. Don't forget to distribute this over a teacher's salary. Too often, this is "hidden" income for teachers (and govt workers) that people out in the private sector basically never get anymore. A $50k teacher salary can be more like $100k when you make an honest comparison (again, including vacation time).

I used to work my ass off for $45k working 49 weeks x 5 days, or 245 work days a year. IN order to work let's say 200 days, I would take a further 20% salary cut. Teachers have the best schedules of any worker.... period. This need not change. But the union structure remains deeply harmful to kids.

Wait a second.
It's not like that anymore.
Healthy benefits has been steady declining in the past 7 years. I remember my wife (a teacher is a wealthy district) had a $800 monthly health PPO insurance paid by the school. That was a great perk.
Now, we are paying out of our pocket $500, the school contributes with $300 for a piece of sh*t HMO plan. Her salary did not increase to accommodate that.
What, I am saying is that benefits are not the same anymore, teachers don't make that great money as you say and on top of that my wife spends at least US$1500 p/year from her money to buy things for her classroom and books etc. And she's in a great district. Now tell me a teacher from a bad area, dealing with kids with problems, gangs etc.
If teaching was such an wonderful job, the demand would be huge. That's not the case.
Yes, teachers have a lot of time off, that's a perk, but that's pretty much it.
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post #173 of 294
In my district, we have an almost useless HMO plan. And we still have to pay into it and retirement just like everyone else's profession that provides health care and retirement/401k. Our contract was just up for renewal and our salaries were decreased even more, with even more of a downgrade to our already bottom-of-the-line HMO health plan.
post #174 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Heh, I changed the end of my post but right on, thanks.


About teacher salary discussions, don't forget the typical excellent health care and defined-benefit (often inflation protected) retirement benefits. These benefits are the reason why airlines declared bankruptcy and automakers may also. The old fashioned union structure is severely outdated now. Since public schools can't file for bankruptcy, their costs simply rise and they have "budget crunches." This is not to say they don't have huge amounts of money. They do. But it is being used for a broken compensation system.

A defined benefit, inflation-proof retirement pension of $30,000 is worth around $500,000. Don't forget to distribute this over a teacher's salary. Too often, this is "hidden" income for teachers (and govt workers) that people out in the private sector basically never get anymore. A $50k teacher salary can be more like $100k when you make an honest comparison (again, including vacation time).

I used to work my ass off for $45k working 49 weeks x 5 days, or 245 work days a year. IN order to work let's say 200 days, I would take a further 20% salary cut. Teachers have the best schedules of any worker.... period. This need not change. But the union structure remains deeply harmful to kids.

Please read my earlier post about just how many days teachers work compared to other professionals with similar educational requirements. As far as retirement is concerned, you can't generalize because it is so different from state to state. I just retired in Maine. The retired individual pays 55% of the retirement health insurance. Other individuals who retire under the state retirement system ( Dvm employees etc.)have 100% paid. Why? Who knows? Other states pay all of the retired health care. It is very different from state to state so please don't generalize. As far as the unions are concerned, that too varies somewhat. Here in Maine we do not have the right to strike. I always viewed the union as some protection from a principal or school board member who didn't like you. Very few professions are as vulnerable to personality clashes. Maybe its not like that everywhere. I taught for 36 years in Massachusetts and Maine and retired at the end of first semester this year.
post #175 of 294
As a public school teacher with 17 years experience (so far) let me add my 2-cents worth.

First, As Mr. Dell and others have pointed out, employee unions were formed to prevent abuses by management. The abuses today may be more subtle in light of labor laws, etc, but they're still present and unions are still necessary as long as there are workers ready to put a short-term buck before safety or community, and as long as management and stockholders are willing to put profit and productivity before worker rights. Have unions abused their power? In many instances, yes. Bad employees get protected along with the good. And as Bob Dylan pointed out in Union Sundown, "seemed like a good idea/'til greed got in the way." And this from the guy who worshipped at the alter of the Union hero, Woody Guthrie.

Second, I have little patience for the nonsense line of AM radio reasoning that goes basically like this: "I don't get/ I never got ______ (fill in blank), so they shouldn't either." Unions fought hard and shed blood to get basic rights like a living wage, time off, and health care for dependents. You don't have decent health care? I'm sorry - you should. Get a different job, get organized with your fellow employees, vote diffferently in the next election, but please, stop blaming the unions for what you don't have - it's counter-productive and doesn't get you what you need anyway.

Third, I'll grudgingly agree that teachers have a good schedule, though I'm looking forward - gladly - to a third summer in a row teaching summer school so I can actually pay my bills. I have yet to meet a person who griped about the great schedule and benefits teachers get who was actually planning on entering the profession. If it's such a great job (and I think it is, but for different reasons) why are we hurting for quality teachers (especially men)?

Finally, I have butted heads with my own union on the very issue Steve Jobs addresses. In no profession - teaching included - should it be possible for someone to simply show up in order to get paid, but unfortunately, bad teachers are hard to fire (and they make the rest of us look bad). The devil is certainly in the details, but I have long insisted that it should be possible to measure teacher performance based on student outcomes. Any teacher, given an intact group of students, should be able to demonstrate that those kids know more at the end of the year than they did when they walked in the door at the beginning, and I'll fight any teacher union on that point. Any teacher who can't do that needs either a coach (which some districts use) or a pink slip.
post #176 of 294
The way benefits work in Washington state are as follows.

For health care, we have two viable options in most districts. You can enroll with Blue Cross, or you can take the route with Group Health. Now, overall the health care benefits are very good. However, do no think they are free. I still have to pay out of pocket for my health care AFTER my school pays its portion, and I'm only covering myself. I know some employees in other industries have to pay for insurance on their own, but many have similar programs, so I find it difficult to assert that teachers are the only ones with this advantage. With rising health care costs, it is likely to become standard with most companies. In addition, whenever teachers get a pay raise, often our insurance costs will go up as well. So, ironically, we never actually see our own pay raises. We simply get a boost to our monthly salary to cover increased insurance costs. Convenient.

Retirement is a bit more complicated. I invest a percentage of my monthly income towards my retirement. It is tax-deferred, which is a nice feature. I will invest a substantial portion of my income to ensure I have a good retirement (investment can range from 5%-15%). The state also provides me a pension, although it is far less than what it use to be. In other words, I pay for my own retirement more than what use to be provided. Here's how the pension works.

The old plan, Plan 1, gave you 60% of your two highest paying years of service. It also includes an investment annuity option. You can access this after you have served 30 years as a public school teacher in the state, regardless of age. My father has taught 34 years, so he will receive his own investments into an annuity as well as 60% of his top two years of teaching, even at the age of 58. Not too bad if managed correctly. So you're looking at say $60,000 at 60%, or $36,000.

Plan 2 was introduced later to replace the original Plan 1. It states that you get 2% of your average final compensation x the number of years served as a teacher. So you figure that if you teach 30 years times an average salary of $45,000, you are looking at 2% of $1,350,000, or $27,000. Now, you only get the full benefit at age 65, which means that if you retire at 55 (with over 20 years experience), you take a 3% hit to your retirement for each year under 65 you are. Not nearly as popular as Plan 1.

Today, we have Plan 3. Very similar to Plan 2, except you have a personal contribution plan (as described above) plus the same formula for Plan 2, except you get 1% instead of 2%. So, using the same idea that I may have an average of $45,000 over the course of my career, I would get $13,500 plus whatever contributions I make. So here's the run down on pensions over the course of the same career:

Plan 1 - $36,000
Plan 2 - $27,000
Plan 3 - $13,500

They all have the option of tax-deferred investing. But I have to work until I'm 65 to achieve full benefits when I retire. For me, that'll be 40 years of teaching. How many people out there work for 40 years at the same job with equal education that top out at about $60,000 ($59,157 to be exact for 2006-07)? In addition, most companies provide stock options and investment opportunities that teachers do not. To argue that we have this magnificent pension plan is a bit of an overstatement. We get a small token of gratitude for our years of service, but hardly enough to live on (monthly take on $13,500 is about $800 after taxes). My retirement will be based on my investments like everyone else. While others get stock options, I get a tax-deferred contribution.

While retirement plans vary from state to state as mentioned, this would be, I would assume, within the ballpark for most. Correct me if I have misspoken on any of these items. Lord know they are complicated as is. Again, based on what I've seen of other jobs, watching many software engineers and dot coms retiring at 35-40 years old after about 20 years of work, it just doesn't sit well with me. Then again, maybe I should have stuck with computer science after all. But I enjoy the positive impact I have on the lives of kids (which will be, conservatively, anywhere from 1000-6000 just in the classroom over a career) more so. I just want to be able to go home at the end of the day and not fret over finances and live comfortably, not extravagantly, for my efforts. Thanks!
post #177 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmann View Post

Finally, I have butted heads with my own union on the very issue Steve Jobs addresses. In no profession - teaching included - should it be possible for someone to simply show up in order to get paid, but unfortunately, bad teachers are hard to fire (and they make the rest of us look bad). The devil is certainly in the details, but I have long insisted that it should be possible to measure teacher performance based on student outcomes. Any teacher, given an intact group of students, should be able to demonstrate that those kids know more at the end of the year than they did when they walked in the door at the beginning, and I'll fight any teacher union on that point. Any teacher who can't do that needs either a coach (which some districts use) or a pink slip.

A much better approach than standardized tests. What they know going in versus what they know going out is a sure approach that learning has been accomplished (to put it simply). Thanks!!
post #178 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

About teacher salary discussions, don't forget the typical excellent health care and defined-benefit (often inflation protected) retirement benefits. These benefits are the reason why airlines declared bankruptcy and automakers may also. The old fashioned union structure is severely outdated now. Since public schools can't file for bankruptcy, their costs simply rise and they have "budget crunches." This is not to say they don't have huge amounts of money. They do. But it is being used for a broken compensation system.

A defined benefit, inflation-proof retirement pension of $30,000 is worth around $500,000. Don't forget to distribute this over a teacher's salary. Too often, this is "hidden" income for teachers (and govt workers) that people out in the private sector basically never get anymore. A $50k teacher salary can be more like $100k when you make an honest comparison (again, including vacation time).

Retirement plans vary widely, and they are funded by teachers PAYING INTO the fund. Every paycheck has a deduction for the fund, and like social security, current teachers are paying for current retirees meaning the plan may go bankrupt and teachers may get less than they paid in, or nothing at all. And speaking of social security, teachers get either reduced SS or not at all, so better factor that in.

So what is your fix, just kill retirement plans? There's a teacher shortage already, if you want to keep people interested in teaching, be prepared to offset retirement cuts with boosts in other compentation or make the shortage even bigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I would say private schools are better because they aren't required to 'graduate' all students like they publics schools do. If you don't pass your class, you fail.

That's true, also they don't have to deal with all the bullshit government beaurocracy like NCLB and have more freedom to actually teach things instead of just pandering to tests. And they can kick out kids with discipline problems. But the notion that they're better because they pay teachers more simply isn't true - they pay less, but the working conditions may be better for some teachers.
post #179 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I would say private schools are better because they aren't required to 'graduate' all students like they publics schools do. If you don't pass your class, you fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

That's true, also they don't have to deal with all the bullshit government beaurocracy like NCLB and have more freedom to actually teach things instead of just pandering to tests. And they can kick out kids with discipline problems. But the notion that they're better because they pay teachers more simply isn't true - they pay less, but the working conditions may be better for some teachers.

There's been extensive research going both ways on this one. But I tend to agree that one is not better than the other inherently. It comes down to whether or not there's a good teacher present, public or private. Which types of schools have more? We could debate that one all year, and I'm not in the position to pass judgment on either. Thanks!
post #180 of 294
I always heard that public teachers are better because the state request credentials and courses to be able to work and private schools that's not mandatory. Plus here in SoCal, "most" public teachers tend to make better money than private ones.
But I agree that ussulay "most" of the time the private facilities are better than some public ones. But that depends on the district.
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post #181 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sladuuch View Post

Sure, good principals not being able to fire bad teachers is a problem in K-12 education. So are bad principals bullying good teachers. And ballooning class sizes. And politically-motivated curricula. And aging teaching models outdated by modern technology. And crumbling infrastructure in urban schools. And kids with discipline problems whose parents don't give a rat's ass if they do poorly.

I have enjoyed this thread because I work in education as a "technology person" and deal with issues like this constantly.

What's important to remember is that teacher's can't be fired typically because they have tenure. Tenure is something that's earned. The key is to recognize the bad teachers early on, then fire them before they earn tenure. It's the responsbility of the principals and administrators to make sure the bad teachers don't stay around for this long.

The slant I got reading Jobs' comments was that teachers who don't use technology should be fired. He didn't say this obviously, but that is my current perspective. We have a lot of older teachers who refuse to use technology. I don't think the use of technology (or Apple's products) is required for a person to be a good educator. Good teachers have existed long before the first microchip came along. Technology is just a tool that can enrich the learning experience.

Additionally, the earlier comparison to the military is absurd. If anything, the Cold War mentality of continually pumping billions and trillions of dollars into the military's budget takes away from other things we should be investing in, like education to name one. Just think how much money we would save if the military focused primarily on self defense instead of protecting foreign oil resources that we are currently addicted to.
post #182 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazygopher View Post

...the reason why foreign countries are outdoing the U.S. on test scores is because they test those who have been tracked into upper tier programs. We test everyone. If I tested only my AP students, we'd be right in the mix of it with everyone else.

Amen. It infuriates me to no end that the mainstream media continually refuse to report this critical fact.

To make a sports analogy, the other countries' academic starters, backups and scrubs take a test at a fairly early age that tracks them into entirely separate schools. Think about it: a test at an early age determines the course of these foreign students' lives. In the U.S., the starters, backups and scrubs continue to go to school together. Therefore, in the U.S. students still have more control over the courses of their own lives at a later age.

The U.S. students taking the OECD/PISA international academic tests are a combination of starters, backups and scrubs. The only foreign students taking these international tests are those other countries' starters. That is NOT an apples-to-apples comparison!!!

The mainstream American news media won't mention anything about it, though. Shocking the public by reporting the U.S.'s ranking on the international tests strictly at face value -- without telling people the whole story -- sells more newspapers and advertisements. They choose to report an imagined U.S. plane crash instead of a more accurate U.S. landing. Our news media gatekeepers at work...
post #183 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

That's true, also they don't have to deal with all the bullshit government beaurocracy like NCLB and have more freedom to actually teach things instead of just pandering to tests. And they can kick out kids with discipline problems. But the notion that they're better because they pay teachers more simply isn't true - they pay less, but the working conditions may be better for some teachers.

I agree. I see this thread as evolving into a blame the teachers over the failures of NCLB. I'm not against accountability in education nor firing of sub standard teachers. I just think that when people talk about accountability in education, everyone is held accountable but the students themselves. When are they accountable for their performance in school?
post #184 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesG View Post

I have enjoyed this thread because I work in education as a "technology person" and deal with issues like this constantly.

What's important to remember is that teacher's can't be fired typically because they have tenure. Tenure is something that's earned. The key is to recognize the bad teachers early on, then fire them before they earn tenure. It's the responsbility of the principals and administrators to make sure the bad teachers don't stay around for this long.

The slant I got reading Jobs' comments was that teachers who don't use technology should be fired. He didn't say this obviously, but that is my current perspective. We have a lot of older teachers who refuse to use technology. I don't think the use of technology (or Apple's products) is required for a person to be a good educator. Good teachers have existed long before the first microchip came along. Technology is just a tool that can enrich the learning experience.

Additionally, the earlier comparison to the military is absurd. If anything, the Cold War mentality of continually pumping billions and trillions of dollars into the military's budget takes away from other things we should be investing in, like education to name one. Just think how much money we would save if the military focused primarily on self defense instead of protecting foreign oil resources that we are currently addicted to.


I don't agree with your opinion because you assumed the worse . While I agree to your statement that there are lot of older teachers who refuse to use technology in their classroom ( which I like and heartily support) , there was nothing in Steve Jobs message he wanted Tech phobic teachers fired by being bad teachers . I find that sometimes tech phobic teachers make the best educators because they learn to use their imagination to help them teach their school charges efficiently and effectively. Your bias is clearly showing here because Steve Jobs was willing to lose business with the educational sector in order to tell the truth of the matter.

On your second point , The US government can throw the DOD's whole budget into education and still won't affect a single change because the educational system is broken due to bureaucracy , politics , corruption , lawyers , ideology , corrupt unions and above all government involvement & interference. No amount of money can change that .
post #185 of 294
My $0.02 cents for all they're worth.

Loving your job does not equal getting paid what you're worth. The question you must determine is whether you feel "comfortable" with what you're getting from it. I don't care if you work 80 hrs a week and make $1. If you don't feel that the rewards (monatary or otherwise) are worth it then move on. I know too many people who work a job they can't stand because the money is what they feel they need to support themselves and their family's lifestyle...so they deal with it.

RESPECT IS EARNED!!! Not demanded. I've been a real estate agent for the last three years. What do you think the general public impression is of a real estate agent? LOL. It's not good...about three notches below car salesman. I earn respect and trust by performing extremely well for my clients. Those clients tell others. I earn those people's business. I establish a reputation and therefore earn respect.

I have to be licensed to be able to do my job. There is a "minimum" level of education required (which I must pay to receive). I have to complete continuing education in order to maintain my license (which again I must pay to receive). I also have many fees which must be paid...just to operate. Let's not even get into advertising expenses. I put in a MINIMUM of 12 hrs a day and do you know what my salary is...$0.

I chose this profession for several reasons:
1) I love helping people
2) I like the challenge and the variety this career offers
3) I like the ABILITY (but not the right) to earn a lot of money

I have NO health insurance...NO pension or retirement plan (with employers contributions)...NO social security...NO unemployment insurance...NO guarantee that I can pay my bills next month.

Public education in this country is shameful. It's not ONLY about pay...it's about accountability and results. The argument that you don't get to chose your students is weak and rather mute. In the corporate world, you don't chose your customer, they chose you. If you can't adjust and meet their demands...they find someone who will.

Anyways...this is already more than I cared to get into. I'm not blaming anybody...but as educators you're in the best position to make a difference. Even if you're not responsible you can take responsibility anyways instead of insisting on waiting for the magic bullet. Everyone needs to just stop pointing fingers and start taking action.
post #186 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I agree. I see this thread as evolving into a blame the teachers over the failures of NCLB. I'm not against accountability in education nor firing of sub standard teachers. I just think that when people talk about accountability in education, everyone is held accountable but the students themselves. When are they accountable for their performance in school?

While I certainly agree with that, don't forget parents! Regardless of how good a teacher is, there's a limit to how much a student will learn if they have terrible attendance, never do homework, and aren't disciplined by parents. Teachers should be accountable for improvement, but students and parents deserve much of the credit/blame as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iGuess View Post

If you don't feel that the rewards (monatary or otherwise) are worth it then move on.

That makes a nice greeting card, but it doesn't exactly fix the teacher shortage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iGuess View Post

Public education in this country is shameful. It's not ONLY about pay...it's about accountability and results. The argument that you don't get to chose your students is weak and rather mute. In the corporate world, you don't chose your customer, they chose you. If you can't adjust and meet their demands...they find someone who will.

It is shameful for many reasons. And not choosing your students is an absolutely valid point, especially in a system that judges kids not on improvement, but on overall performance. Teachers should be accountable, but everyone involved in education should be accountable as well, including parents and students. If a student refuses to do anything, it doesn't really matter how good the teacher is, especially now that we've taken away the power from teachers to discipline, and administrators and parents give no support.

"Choosing students" isn't comparable to choosing customers, it's comparable to choosing raw materials. If you gave a carpenter rotten, broken wood, is it his fault if the house he ends up building falls down? The way the current educational system is set up (especially with NCLB), it provides a huge incentive for good teachers to find schools that are already doing well and avoid the ones where the kids need the most help. This is a system that completely ignores improvement, so you're best off if you find a school with kids that are already doing well (generally the rich schools).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iGuess View Post

Anyways...this is already more than I cared to get into. I'm not blaming anybody...but as educators you're in the best position to make a difference. Even if you're not responsible you can take responsibility anyways instead of insisting on waiting for the magic bullet. Everyone needs to just stop pointing fingers and start taking action.

There's only so much a teacher can do, even an excellent one. Teachers can make a difference, but so can administrators, the government idiots making teachers jump through hoops instead of teaching, parents, and students themselves. You say you're not pointing fingers...but you ARE pointing fingers. Teachers can improve, but there are many other things that need to improve as well.
post #187 of 294
Steve wasn't talking about teachers in general. He was talking about a vast power structure that is crippling school budgets, flexibility and effectiveness. The NEA union is a vast and powerful entity that wields big political and financial power. It causes harm to kids. Imagine if doctors had such a union. People would die a lot more often. Not because doctors aren't nice people, but because their union would get in the way of hospitals. Unions kill productivity in the end. Union rolls are falling nationwide, mainly because unions cause their employers to die quite often.

Public unions are the worst of all - because the public can't go bankrupt and get rid of them. If you doubt what I am saying, you haven't worked in a union company/school before. I have, a very advanced union, and people were making $90k for menial labor jobs, and the company went bust. Fortunately. It made me realize the public schools (esp with retirement funding) are in the same boat. Sometimes when the mess is that deep, it's best to kill the structure and start over.
post #188 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Excellent post, Crazygopher. People outside of teaching have no clue about what it's actually like.




You obviously have no clue about being a teacher - they ALREADY DO EXACTLY THIS for teachers, only it's more often than every six years. To stay a teacher, you pretty much have to keep taking classes on a regular basis.

And imagine if every industry was like this - how many of you have mandatory testing/education (out of your own pocket, no less) to keep your job?



Except that private schools generally pay *worse* than public schools. Private schools provide a better eduation because they keep out the poor kids. Sad but true.

As a Mechanical Engineer and Computer Scientist I continue to add to my skillsets on a daily basis. Without it I am obsolete and lose my careers.

Taking workshops and "classes" for teaching is not what I had in mind.

For example, to become a Professional Engineer one has two roadways to travel: take the cumulative Engineers-in-Training Exam from the State in which you file reducing the time to take the Professional/Principle Exam from 12 years to 4 years or wait until 12 years has passed of being under the guidance of a Professional Engineer before qualifying to take the exam.

There is a major difference in pay and job options between these two tiers.

If Educators had to take a cumulative exam that equates to a Master's Exam in order to keep their job, with the work on their own dime and own time, I'd expect to see a very small percentage of them keeping their jobs. In short, the exponential decay curve would be overtaking the exponential growth curve in their respective professions.

The area in which the US currently shows it can't compete lies in the fields of hard science.

This isn't surprising as anyone with a master's in Pure and Applied Mathematics, Physics, various Engineering Fields, Astrophysics, etc., is not going to invest the time to take an "educational" degree in order to teach at the K-12 level.

If mentoring/teaching is in their blood the logical step is to complete a Ph.D and fulfill their designs of influencing future generations at the University level.

IBM is giving incentives for their near retirement staff to go and teach at high schools.

Problem: Barriers to entry, due in mainly to not having an "educational" degree keeps some of the key minds from imparting wisdom to future generations.

Suggestion: Give our kids professionals with Masters in fields directly related to their coursework: make the "educational" degree a "minor" and coordinate with Universities, Coporations and Government agencies in developing Syllabuses that will prepare them to compete against the world at the University level.

Secondly, bring back the applied trades into the K-12 system. Machinists, Mechanics, Technicians, etc., are vital in having high quality products for the future. They are high paying, hands-on careers that would keep the US Manufacturing sector viable.

We don't have this in our system. We used to have it and instead we allowed it to be "outsourced."
post #189 of 294
Quote:
Taking workshops and "classes" for teaching is not what I had in mind.

There is a major difference in pay and job options between these two tiers.

If Educators had to take a cumulative exam that equates to a Master's Exam in order to keep their job, with the work on their own dime and own time, I'd expect to see a very small percentage of them keeping their jobs. In short, the exponential decay curve would be overtaking the exponential growth curve in their respective professions.

There is a rigorous process in place for educators to advance to the next level, modeled on what other professions, like engineers, have to do. It's called the National Board for Professional teaching Standards. It's rigorous, expensive, and an excellent opportunity for teachers to demonstrate through portfolio work, video tapes, extensive written analysis of their own practice using student outcomes as the measure of successful teaching, and multiple tests covering the different subjects at which the teacher is supposed to be proficient. When i went through the process it took the better part of a year and was, hands down, the best - and most humbling - learning I've experienced in my professional life. Each piece I submitted was separately and anonymously evaluated by master teachers using a rigorous rubric. The Process can only be attempted by veteran teachers, and less than 50% are successful on their first attempt (though you can "bank" the successful pieces for up to three years.) It involves classroom practice only - no workshops or seat time. Some districts offer significant pay incentive for successful NBCT's (National Board Certified Teachers). Not surprisingly, few teachers attempt it.


Quote:
Secondly, bring back the applied trades into the K-12 system. Machinists, Mechanics, Technicians, etc., are vital in having high quality products for the future. They are high paying, hands-on careers that would keep the US Manufacturing sector viable.

Absolutely. Not all our students are college bound and we need to stop pretending that they are, identify those with interest and apptitude for a skilled trade earlier, and retool our schools to teach these skills.
post #190 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Retirement plans vary widely, and they are funded by teachers PAYING INTO the fund. Every paycheck has a deduction for the fund, and like social security, current teachers are paying for current retirees meaning the plan may go bankrupt and teachers may get less than they paid in, or nothing at all. And speaking of social security, teachers get either reduced SS or not at all, so better factor that in.

So what is your fix, just kill retirement plans? There's a teacher shortage already, if you want to keep people interested in teaching, be prepared to offset retirement cuts with boosts in other compentation or make the shortage even bigger.


Yeah, one solution is to pay everybody a "justified" portion of the assets and dissolve the program. Just because teachers set up a retirement program for themselves and are 8 billion in the hole does not mean it's society's problem. I could write an IOU to my buddy and say I owe 2 billion dollars to him. Once I go broke, it's not society's problem. Unless I am a teacher pension organization. Then suddenly, the public gets their taxes raised.

It is too bad. But yeah, something has to change regarding teacher retirement plans. It is a central issue in public school finance just as it is with airlines and automakers, as well as police and fire departments.

In my home state, the Minneapolis teacher pension fund is totally in the hole, so it merged with the state fund. This is spreading one problem wider, not curing it.

Bottom line, if you want a nice retirement, make sure you hold plenty of money+securities in your own name. Defined-benefit pensions were an experimental idea that went totally wrong.
post #191 of 294
In regard to the discussion on teachers having to maintain proficiency/updated knowledge, I spent the majority of my Navy career as a welding inspector. In order to keep our knowledge level similar to what we would see on the 'outside', the Navy followed the standards of the national certifications. This involved quarterly reviews of our 'process', basically having a higher qualified person review your work; plus complete rectification every three years. That meant complete from square one, written exams followed by practical demonstrations. If you failed, you were disqualified from your position.

To bring another military comparison into it: for anyone in the Navy, even after you qualified for a watch position/military duty, when you transfered to a different ship or shore station, you have to demonstrate your knowledge and/or proficiency in that duty, normally through an oral review board, before being allowed to perform that duty at your new location.

I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.

And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #192 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post


I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.

And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?


I can give one good reason , money . Their union leaders needed the union dues in order to donate money to their favorite political causes and influence politicians needing money to support them and their programs .
post #193 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_spb View Post

How much should a teacher be making, or anyone for that matter?! If you're a teacher, and you're not happy with your pay, find a job that pays what you want. Simple. If more teachers do this, then at some point they will have to start paying more to keep teachers. It's a logical progression. This holds true with any job, not just teaching. Jobs was spot on, unions enable lazy people to maintain their high paying job for the minimum amount of work. That's pretty much the only "good" they do. If it's about money, then choose your career by the salary given. If it's about the career, then learn to make do with the salary given.

The problem with your assertion is that the "logic" of it entails rules that the government can change on a whim. If the government can't find enough people to fill the jobs because the pay and conditions are terrible. They can simply lower and change the requirements to be a teacher. (You there with the AA instead of a BA, you are hired.) They can change the teacher student ratio. (We know you taught 20 children last year but this year you are teaching 33.) They can change all manner of criteria to simply reflect covering up the mess. Government is very good at such things.

I say this as a teacher, but also as someone who has taken and invested that teacher salary on the side to have a very large net-worth. Working for a salary or choosing a job based exclusively or even predominantly on salary is something insanely stupid as Jobs would also point out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowHunter View Post

Jobs is SPOT ON!

The educational system in America is BROKEN beyond belief. Everyone is to blame; bad parents, bad teachers, endless money pit of a bureaucracy, no accountability, the blame goes on. However, he is totally right about bad teachers, because they can't ever be fired. The educational system rewards mediocre performance with steady pay raises and eternal job security; where's the incentive for a teacher to succeed and impact his/her students to the best of their ability?

The educational system isn't broken and gives a good education to anyone who values education. Any sort of basic education isn't hard to acquire at all with minimal effort and one does not need to be especially bright to teacher any concept taught through the clear majority of high school courses.

There is plenty of accountability. The problem is that the goal of success or failure and the tools used to measure them change roughly every year. Bad teachers can easily be fired by competent administrators. However most administrators are lucky if they see the inside of a teacher's classroom more than once or twice a year and that is almost always entirely by choice. Many teachers have a desire to succeed and impact their students but since they have no control over the tools of their own trade and since the measures of success constantly change and offer no rewards even if they are met. That said many do try their best but as in all circumstances there are indeed bad apples.

Quote:
And as far as teachers aren't paid enough, give me a break. My best friend's wife is a teacher; she has a masters degree and teaches the after school program and makes nearly $75,000 yearly while working 2/3 of the work year that average Joe Public works, is guaranteed the exact same time off as her kids.....PUH-LEASE, don't give me this crap.

Perhaps you need to question your own education because you are comparing apples and oranges. Joe Public, not to be rude, doesn't an advanced degree nor often a degree of any sort. To compare appropriately you must show what someone with an advanced degree would make and see if their vacations and benefits would be commiserate.

Also plenty of people try teaching. The attrition rate for the profession is very high. If it were the cake job that everyone claims, we wouldn't have shortages. We wouldn't have high attrition and lastly we would have a waiting list for applications and slots.

As I mentioned early though, those market forces that should move to correct such attributes, massive attrition, shortages, etc. do not come into play because the government simply changes the rules when they think it convenient.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #194 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The educational system isn't broken and gives a good education to anyone who values education. Any sort of basic education isn't hard to acquire at all with minimal effort and one does not need to be especially bright to teacher any concept taught through the clear majority of high school courses.

Sigh.

Nick, our system is broken to the extent that we have educational inequity along racial and economic lines. There are a whole lot of unique challenges facing urban schools that we need to do a better job of addressing. To say the problem boils down to the individual students for not valuing education enough is not sufficient. As a general matter, we need to expand opportunity to level the playing field for students in this situation.
post #195 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Yeah, one solution is to pay everybody a "justified" portion of the assets and dissolve the program. Just because teachers set up a retirement program for themselves and are 8 billion in the hole does not mean it's society's problem. I could write an IOU to my buddy and say I owe 2 billion dollars to him. Once I go broke, it's not society's problem. Unless I am a teacher pension organization. Then suddenly, the public gets their taxes raised.

It is too bad. But yeah, something has to change regarding teacher retirement plans. It is a central issue in public school finance just as it is with airlines and automakers, as well as police and fire departments.

In my home state, the Minneapolis teacher pension fund is totally in the hole, so it merged with the state fund. This is spreading one problem wider, not curing it.

Bottom line, if you want a nice retirement, make sure you hold plenty of money+securities in your own name. Defined-benefit pensions were an experimental idea that went totally wrong.

I'm not sure what kind of retirement plan you are talking about. In ME we have no choice. We do not pay into social security. We pay into the state retirement system. If we work at other social security jobs, we never see that money. Our state retirement fund is fairly solvent. You cannot live on the retirement (I just retired after 36 years with a masters+30 ). You cannot generalize about retirement--the states control it. NEA has nothing to do with our retirement fund.
post #196 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

In regard to the discussion on teachers having to maintain proficiency/updated knowledge, I spent the majority of my Navy career as a welding inspector. In order to keep our knowledge level similar to what we would see on the 'outside', the Navy followed the standards of the national certifications. This involved quarterly reviews of our 'process', basically having a higher qualified person review your work; plus complete rectification every three years. That meant complete from square one, written exams followed by practical demonstrations. If you failed, you were disqualified from your position.

To bring another military comparison into it: for anyone in the Navy, even after you qualified for a watch position/military duty, when you transfered to a different ship or shore station, you have to demonstrate your knowledge and/or proficiency in that duty, normally through an oral review board, before being allowed to perform that duty at your new location.

I don't understand the teacher's unions opposition to a similar program for teachers, to weed out outdated knowledge (important in education, no?) or ones who just aren't performing up to standards.

And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?

I don't understand a couple of things. How do unions affect education if we cannot strike? We don't have much leverage.
Also, how do you measure undated information in the humanities? If you are teaching English, not much changes since k-12 schools seldom teach contemporary literature. If you are teaching Lating, not much changes. Modern world languages, you could test proficiency on the ACTFL scale. However as a retired French teacher, I know it is very difficult to keep up proficiency without traveling every summer. That's just not practical for everyone. If you are teaching ancient history, not much changes unless there are new archeological findings. And, how to you test the effectiveness of a teacher's presentation of material. I have seen very knowledgeable people fail as teachers.
Again, this is not black and white. We are not producing widgets. Teachers have no control over the quality of their raw materials, or the processing (studying) time, or the desire of the products to be taught. The problem is societal, and the solution must be also. Teachers are part of the society, but there are many other factors. I think its going to take a major teacher shortage to even begin the process of straightening out the mess.
post #197 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

And if anyone thinks badly run Unions can't drive a sector into the ground, have you been watching the airline and automotive industries over the last few decades or so?

That problem stems from employer-based health care.

We need to fix that model.
post #198 of 294
[QUOTE=AppleInsider;1044433]Apple chief executive Steve Jobs lashed out at teachers unions during an education reform conference on friday, claiming that no amount of technology in the classroom would better public schools until principals had authorization to fire bad teachers.

Speaking alongside Dell founder and recently reappointed chief executive Michael Dell at the Austin, Texas-based conference, the Associated Press reports that Jobs focused on comparing schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs.

"What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked. "Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win."'

Jobs said the problem with U.S. institutions is that they have become unionized to a point where ridding public schools of poor teachers is prohibited. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," he said.

Although Jobs drew enthusiastic applause at various intervals, he acknowledged that his raw criticisms were unlikely to be as well-received by the local school board.

"Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," he said.

Dell, who reportedly sat quietly with his hands folded in his lap during Jobs' tirade, responded by saying that unions were created because employers were treating his employees unfairly.

"So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people," he said. "The employees won, they do really well and succeed."

*******************************

OK, JUST LISTEN UP "educational village" :

For 9 years now, I've been using Mac laptops in
my classroom and encouraging the kids to buy Mac as they see how easily I project to my home-made screen with a Toshiba digital projector; how I can summon and anotate, any image imaginable, with the ancient and abandoned AppleWorks; present QT clips of real-life math in the news, historical facts, etc.

THIS GEAR MEANS SURVIVAL & EFFICIENCY

• I pinch pennies to upgrade my system for them.
• I use the projector to get around the continuing hassle of borrowing, securing, and documenting AV equipment from the school.
• I use AppleWorks to save tons of time not looking for markers that are dry out of the box, chalk that scratches the board, boards that skid chalk and are vandalized ; graph boards that are scarce as hens' teeth; manipulatives and demo gear that is always in need of repair or otherwise crippled; etc. ad-nauseam : schools are always ripped off by companies on the District's approved purchasing list. Everyone marvelled when they saw my 12" Powerbook G4 + Digital projector + Wacom graphics tablet in action. No more acetates to get wet or dirty, no more lost packs of slides ... just a pdf file set in a folder ---- reproducible and transmissible via ad-hoc network WI-FI.
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At the receiving end of this, a crowded classroom of children...
• CROWDED because only 3/4 of the student body fit in the building at any one time. So we have 4-track revolving door schools. BECAUSE criminal, fat, cigar-sucking biiiizzzzznnezzz millionaires don't pay the people here enough to have a good property tax base and allocate wealth to schools instead of liquor stores in every corner.

The book covers we just gave our kids depict photos of sweat-drenched, scowling , b-ball thugs. Sometimes it's a bullying Mr. T charcter,
other times it's Army recruitment crap for the poor to go be dismembered to save the rich folk's bacon... compliments of fat, cigar-sucking criminal ceo's probably raking a tax break for "helping inner-city, at-risk youngsters" ... horsesh_t! ( That's a fill-in-the-blank item right there.)

• Ninety plus percent of students have had it demonstrated to them that they need NOT learn math REGARDLESS OF THE TEACHERS' QUALITY because they will pass to the next grade socially. ** subtract one of my incentives for them to pay attention **.

• Instead we get to enjoy way too many smirking punks who regularly spit at teachers, insult them, attack them, kick a pregnant teacher in the abdomen, steal your Mac in a New York minute, etc. *** thank you attorneys out in the land for intimidating teachers and ruining them if they hand Jr. the swift kick in the ass he needs to start him acting like a man instead of a worm***.

If Jobs thinks that Principals are a higher form of life with more morals than teachers have, he really needs to get back in a real classroom ASAP. The ceo/Principal he wants to hand so much power to is likely a classroom escapee who WAS the lousy teacher he refers to. Many will tell you themselves that they could not teach and could not stand the kids and so went for an admin credential. I have a very nice Principal now. But before him we had one who almost emptied the school of all the best teachers by acting like a little bullying idiot who imagined she was talking to 16 year-old stock clerks at K-mart. The less you know about real kids and what will solve the schools' problems, the higher you climb in the power structure.

• A whole industry of charlatans with cult-like methods of implementing their BS instructional programs : "teachers of teachers teaching teachers to teach" have infested the nation's schools... more classroom escapees... more horseshit ! just parasites.

• We have parents who, mostly due to greedy, criminal, cigar-sucking CEO's can't earn enough, with two jobs each , to pay the bills and free time to rear the kids well : these kids learn to admire thugs ( I mean music industry marketers of thug images, arrogance, misogyny, violence, and other rat behavior ).
Very often a parent can't come to the phone because she sleeps 4 hours per night and Jr. is keeping the baby quiet in the next room with the TV set --- no homework.
*** take away the need for a parental conference --- why bother***

• We have too many parents who only show up to their brat's school when they smell a law suit opportunity or to complain about a teacher whom they have never met and for whom they never returned a phone call. I've had many parents show up the last 20 minutes of the school year demanding to know why Princess is failing and can't go on stage for the foto-op that seems to trump learning throughout the previous 8 years. Many of these harbor little hatreds from back when they themselves were assholes in the classroom they disrupted non-stop. They sit around the living room chugging a cool one and bragging to their kids of how they used to piss off their teachers. Then they top that with a perfunctory admonition to "not do as I did -- do as I say" ---- more horseshit !
----------------
Hey Steve'o, you know what happens with the few kids who do a reasonable amount of homework, are reasonably convivial in the classroom, and pay attention to the teacher ???
You really want to know ? Well, they are classified as "honors students" in Honors Math.
And they perform just fine in the CST, STAR etc. tests. It is a joy to keep company with them, even if they have a few misbehavior incidents that I consider part of the job ( not the grinning thugs in the "regular" classes or the totally un-schooled arrivals from below the Frontera who, through no fault of their own, can hardly count past 90 and are expected , in one year, to use an Algebra text written in English and edited by pleistocene moronodons.) It is heart-breaking to see these kind-hearted, generous, respectful country kids begin to put on the punk over the next three years.

You know what Steve Jobs? .... You and the rest of the "village it takes to educate a child" ... the village that is almost entirely hiding in the bushes all year long..... all of you can kiss my teacher ass and start teaching your own kids : that is if you know anything to teach and know how to teach it and can manage to cut the "quality time" crap long enough to spend some QUANTITY time breaking your brats' deformed attitudes and resetting the fracture properly.

BTW, we could use some geniuses as teachers.
Jump in, the water is fine. Do five years with a full workload and no millionaire priviliges, assistants, fart catchers, etc. Do it in L.A.
Be subject to admin mandates, time wasters, idiocy, fetters, threats, arrogance, injustice, etc.

Schools don't need to emulate corporations.
Schools don't need to emulate hospitals.
Schoold don't need to emulate armies.
Schools don't need to emulate computer companies.

Schools aren't any of these things.

So tuck you ego back in your trousers and respect your teachers.

Schools have their own culture, professionals,
skills, and techniques suitable to their own unique situations. Schools have their own language ( student, book, lesson, teacher, mom, dad, kid, screwing up, sassing, spitball, test, passing, failing, drinking water, etc.) We don't need student contracts, media, behavioral issues, projectiles, hydration, facilitators, etc. ad-nauseam.

And we don't need teachers-of-teachers-teaching-teachers-to-teach ..... put these back in with the kids : let them "model the behavior" for us.

And we sure as hell don't need ceo's pretending to be teachers.

If the average CPU chip behaved like the average school kid, Mr. Jobs would assemble fewer than eight iMacs per year and he would quit before the first batch graduated.

Hey VILLAGE PEOPLE ... if you won't help us, then just go to hell.

*** Are there any questions so far ? ***
---gooddog

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---gooddog

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post #199 of 294
Please let me know if there is a coherent point in gooddog's post; I failed to find it.
post #200 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

Please let me know if there is a coherent point in gooddog's post; I failed to find it.

Being a teacher in the US is bound to give you heart problems?
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