or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple's Jobs blasts teachers unions
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple's Jobs blasts teachers unions - Page 6

post #201 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

Please let me know if there is a coherent point in gooddog's post; I failed to find it.

Gooddog is describing what its really like to be a teacher. Visit a school for a week or so if you don't believe it.
post #202 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Sigh.

Nick, our system is broken to the extent that we have educational inequity along racial and economic lines. There are a whole lot of unique challenges facing urban schools that we need to do a better job of addressing. To say the problem boils down to the individual students for not valuing education enough is not sufficient. As a general matter, we need to expand opportunity to level the playing field for students in this situation.

I always find it amazing how you simply declare the answers of others to be "not sufficient" while offering nothing more than your own opinion in return.

You focus on inequity because you don't like the results as a whole in these schools. However it is clearly possible to go to these schools and get the education necessary to go to college. It is entirely possible. The fact that X percent instead of Y percent achieve that mark is not necessarily a sign that the school is bad.

Having taught in these schools, instead of being a dismissive law school student who had the opportunity to teach and choose not to, I can tell you that opportunities abound. When I was teaching at Menlo Avenue Elementary School Foshay LC School had formed a school within a school and was offering those within it a fully paid scholarship for four years to USC. When it came to advanced programs or extra-opportunities we were always scrambling to fill slots because the kids kept dropping off or out.

I could go on and on. We had monthly book giveaways via the RIF program where every student was given a free book. Every student in the school received free breakfast and lunch. I have to this day never seen the amount of money available budget-wise that I saw in the inner-city schools.

You cannot educate someone against their will. You cannot demand world class excellence educationally of someone when they prefer never to pick up a book. You can provide multiple excellent opportunities and still not have a good result.

Answer me this Shawn, you advocate the leveling of opportunities, as if such a thing were even possible to predict and track. If it were possible and they were level, do you honestly expect fully equitable outcomes?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #203 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

Please let me know if there is a coherent point in gooddog's post; I failed to find it.

Gooddog was that teacher screaming at the camera to prove he was a bad teacher...

Granted that the piece was slanted but really the SC administrator and the NY union did not come off looking very good. Especially with that 600 step process to remove a teacher for incompetence...but hey they made sexual predators easier to fire...I bet it's only a 300 step process. Like that's some crowning achievement.

Yah, teachers unions are a big problem. The ineffective ones simply take pay from teachers already under paid and the effective ones just fight any changes regardless of merit.

I'm now for vouchers. Good teachers will be able to find better paying jobs anyway and bad principals wont be able to hire good teachers because they'll leave for the competition at their first opportunity and their schools will go out of business. Kids who want to learn trades can find a school tailored for them.

Vinea
post #204 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


Answer me this Shawn, you advocate the leveling of opportunities, as if such a thing were even possible to predict and track. If it were possible and they were level, do you honestly expect fully equitable outcomes?

Nick

I'm all for the government 'leveling the opportunity', I think it's misguided for government to level the outcome.

Let me rephase: It is desirable for government to pursue equality of opportunity in education but futile and undesirable to seek equality of outcome (since there are variables beyond government's control which affect outcome).
post #205 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarde View Post

Gooddog is describing what its really like to be a teacher.

Yes, I'm aware. He or she didn't do so in an even remotely eloquent, coherent manner, however.
post #206 of 294
Is the following accurate?

Quote:
Our system is broken to the extent that we have educational inequity along racial and economic lines.

Nick's response: "It's the black people and poor people's fault."

Quote:
There are a whole lot of unique challenges facing urban schools that we need to do a better job of addressing.

Nick's response: "What challenges? I don't see anything?"

Quote:
To say the problem boils down to the individual students for not valuing education enough is not sufficient.

Nick's response: "That's just your opinion. There are no systemic problems-- only individual failings"

Quote:
As a general matter, we need to expand opportunity to level the playing field for students in this situation.

Nick's response: "What problem?"
post #207 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I'm all for the government 'leveling the opportunity', I think it's misguided for government to level the outcome.

Let me rephase: It is desirable for government to pursue equality of opportunity in education but futile and undesirable to seek equality of outcome (since there are variables beyond government's control which affect outcome).

Exactly. However the difference between yourself and others is that you measure equality of opportunity by the opportunities given. Others, likely Shawn himself if he is honest measure the equality of the opportunity by the outcomes. You note that there are variables beyond the government's control which affect the outcome. The answer to that according to Shawn and others is of course to expand or seize control of such variables with the government.

Example:

Tom and Timmy attend the same schools for twelve years and are always assigned the same teachers, classes and programs. When we test at the end Tom outperforms Timmy to a considerable degree. We start looking at those external variables. Tom has a two parent home, both parents are college educated and are also advocates for his education. Timmy has a single parent home, with a mother who is a drop-out and could care less about his report card.

By your reasoning the educational opportunities have been equalized. The outcomes have not. In reality though it is very likely that Timmy has received loads of extra-tutoring, after school program opportunities, and summer school. Even with that the school might have gotten him to perform better than he would have, but not as good as he might had he come from a certain background.

You will note that Shawn's wording is very deliberate. He said that we need to expand educational opportunities to level the playing field. He did not say that those expanded opportunities need to be equitable.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #208 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Is the following accurate?



Nick's response: "It's the black people and poor people's fault."



Nick's response: "What challenges? I don't see anything?"



Nick's response: "That's just your opinion. There are no systemic problems-- only individual failings"



Nick's response: "What problem?"

I ask you a question. You caricature with me with a self-dialog where you put words into my mouth. Interest level of intellectual discourse you are advocating there Shawn.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #209 of 294
Nick-- we're talking about very basic (to this question) assumptions about the nature of educational inequity. I'm saying we should attribute the source of the disparity to systemic concerns (for a host of specific reasons we could get into later). You're saying nothing more than individual effort explains the achievement gap in education along racial and economic lines. Is that correct?
post #210 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Exactly. However the difference between yourself and others is that you measure equality of opportunity by the opportunities given. Others, likely Shawn himself if he is honest measure the equality of the opportunity by the outcomes. You note that there are variables beyond the government's control which affect the outcome. The answer to that according to Shawn and others is of course to expand or seize control of such variables with the government.

Example:

Tom and Timmy attend the same schools for twelve years and are always assigned the same teachers, classes and programs. When we test at the end Tom outperforms Timmy to a considerable degree. We start looking at those external variables. Tom has a two parent home, both parents are college educated and are also advocates for his education. Timmy has a single parent home, with a mother who is a drop-out and could care less about his report card.

By your reasoning the educational opportunities have been equalized. The outcomes have not. In reality though it is very likely that Timmy has received loads of extra-tutoring, after school program opportunities, and summer school. Even with that the school might have gotten him to perform better than he would have, but not as good as he might had he come from a certain background.

You will note that Shawn's wording is very deliberate. He said that we need to expand educational opportunities to level the playing field. He did not say that those expanded opportunities need to be equitable.

Nick

Well I'm not opposed to putting additional resources into areas where students' are underperforming based upon stardardized exams. By the way this is not an 'urban' phenomenom. I live in a rural area and it's a big issue here. What bothers me is that once a school is deemed to be 'failing' all the blame is placed on the school and the teachers. Why? That subsequently puts a lot of pressure on the school to teach to the test which they do. Basically the last month of public school in my area is devoted to test prep.

I see NCLB as a governmental approach to acheive equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. Someone else brought up a good point that underacheivers should be given the option of atttending a trade school.
post #211 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

By the way this is not an 'urban' phenomenom. I live in a rural area and it's a big issue here.

Right!

It's particularly an issue in urban and rural areas.
post #212 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Nick-- we're talking about very basic (to this question) assumptions about the nature of educational inequity. I'm saying we should attribute the source of the disparity to systemic concerns (for a host of specific reasons we could get into later). You're saying nothing more than individual effort explains the achievement gap in education along racial and economic lines. Is that correct?

I'll be happy to answer your question but do believe you should do me the courtesy of answering mine first since it was asked first. Additionally I haven't mocked your responses or attacked you in any fashion so again, extend the same courtesy that has been given to you.

Answer me this Shawn, you advocate the leveling of opportunities, as if such a thing were even possible to predict and track. If it were possible and they were level, do you honestly expect fully equitable outcomes?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #213 of 294
Hey Chucker,

Let's try again.

(1) Jobs and some here think it's wise to remove the protection that tenure grants teachers, ostensibly because teachers are not doing a good job, and that firing the "bad teachers" will leave a pool of "good" teachers. Maybe vouchers will help the victimized students to rush into the embrace of the "good teachers".

(2) One implication is that Jobs knows better because Apple puts out great products and he is a star CEO.

(3) Another tacit assumption is that the performance of students in standardized tests is a measure of their teacher's performance much like the performance of a computer or app' in benchmark tests is a measure of the engineer.

In my post above, I gave you a little taste of the daily, unrelenting crap that teachers have to put up with year after year.

Let's look at the commonplace arguments (1), (2), and (3) above more honestly.

(1) A teacher makes a social contract with the rest of the world : I will stay out of front line development in my subject in order to take successive generations of youngsters through the basics needed for them to advance to cutting edge work at a place like Apple Inc. This means that I will lose my own competitive marketability as a researcher as years go by. At 30 or 40 , I will not be able to compete in the research market, having forgotten much of my graduate school learning that simply isn't used for K-12 teaching and some of which has become obsolete. I will also be too old to hire: no one in industry hires you at entry level at 55 to retire or die or use up lots of medical benefits in just a few years.

I am like the soldier, in the old movies, who lies over the barbed wire so that those after me may step on my back and cross quickly to the forward position. The field commander will tell you this is a crucial job even if the human bridge doesn't get the fame and glory of the guy at the point position.

If you betray me by violating that contract ; refusing me protection and denigrating me, then you are an unmanly moral coward.

You may have seen how sometimes a gold medalist sprinter will step up to the mic and thank his mother for teaching him how to walk and only then thank his coach for teaching him how to run. That would be what a man with some class would say.

Vouchers (even if sufficient to actually get these underachieving students to the "better" teachers: they are far from sufficient) would simply dump masses of ill-mannered punks and well mannered but unschooled students into the "better schools" to detroy them absolutely. When those "good" teachers get a load of a dozen parents who won't come to the phone, let alone to the school, and she has to either inflate grades or flunk 85% of each class at the end of the year, she will learn that there is no room at the "good" school for a double population in the coming school year. She will see the incompetent students promoted "socially" by the District. All the students will see that performance is not really required and over a few years, more and more of them will simply flip teacher the bird when warned about failing grades.

Soon, the percentage of bird flippers overwhelms any hope of solving the problem. And of course, as happens to many of us teachers, we are magically transformed from the "excellent" teacher we were last year to the "bad" teacher every one loves to dump on today.

I know this because I have taught math and physics at all levels, from 7th grade to University graduate course work.
I have also worked as a researcher with NASA and with people of the caliber of HP's Barney Oliver ( head of R & D at HP for over 30 years; awarded the President's Medal of Science, and BTW, an ex boss of Steve Jobs. I taught physics at Deanza College ( minutes from the Apple Cupertino campus ) and at Foothill College in Palo Alto where sophomores discussed Dirac's equations and quantum electrodynamics very fluently with me. All of them wanted me to replace their prof. I had to ask them to not push for that, because , as a part-timer, it would get me in a lot of political trouble.

In graduate school, lab students from neighboring classrooms would sneak out of their rooms and pile up outside my door to listen to my explanations. There too, requests were made by naive sophomores to replace the tenured prof with me in the lecture hall as well.

My 7th Grade "honors" students in South Central LA also learn perfectly well with me and perform well above average on the standardized tests.

I tell you all of this, Chuckles, so that you will understand that I AM one of those "good teachers". And that I am also one of those "bad teachers". Last semester, the mother of an impossibly ill-behaved student created a very loud scene in my classroom and accused me of sabotaging her daughter's "four-oh" average. I tried to explain that 40% is not what "four-oh average" means but, rather, that it is 10 points below failing. She removed her child from my roster and insulted everyone within earshot.
And my "regular" classes (of students with parents who are about as helpful as that lady) score "far below basic" consistently year after year without a worry in the world.

You see, Chucky, the term "bad teacher" is virtually meaningless.

Would you like to know why ?

Pay attention.

Kids are not inanimate units on a conveyor belt who respond consistently to the application of "best practices", to then comply with "standards", the way a chunk of code will comply with IEEE 802.11g standards if only the code pounder will key the code in correctly.

Kids are willfull creatures who fight back and play the system like a cheap fiddle. I suspect my little darlings will chew you up and spit you into the unemployment line in less than a month. They gave me a "week" to quit. I am still standing. And every one of them who DESIRES an education is getting twice as much "performance" from me than I ever got from my teachers.

In more than 15 years in the District, I have found only two teachers of mathematics who "under performed". One was truly deserving of discipline only because she wasn't used to the verbal abuse that a 6th grade brat can spit out at a teacher. She lost her cool as I am sure you brave snipers would , if only you had the backbone to step into the classroom and try teaching public school just once.
The second teacher needs only a little more advice and support from the "village" to become a good teacher.

By the way, Barney Oliver resigned from his local School Board in disgust over the trammels and beaurocracy that hit him, head-on, when he tried to remedy these same problems.

Imagine, a man so tough that ( it is told ) engineers would hide under their desks when he walked down the hallway at HP. So rough, that I was jokingly checked for bruises and bite marks, by a former employee of his, when I told him I worked with Barney and lived at his home for a few weeks, as he kindly tried to help me find teaching work in the area ( NASA's project was killed by Uncle Sam and I had no safety net nor family to stay with. Barney opened his home to me and helped me in many other very generous ways.) And, imagine a man so intelligent that he had a huge number of patents to his name and was awarded the national equivalent of a Nobel prize. And yet, even he could not handle the stupidity at his "upscale" local school system.

Do you suppose Dr. Oliver was a dunce too ?

(2)

Now, if you know anything about Apple, it is that Jobs takes no crap and hires only the best.

Do you see how this is exactly the opposite of the conditions forced on public school teachers nationwide ?

Can you imagine what would become of Apple Inc. , Steve Jobs' image, and my Apple stock value if Jobs were forced to hire ill-mannered, indolent, violent, repugnant little thugs who flipped him the bird and laughed in his face as he walked down the hall ? Do you dream, for a moment, that Jobs would get anything like an iPod in shrink wrap anytime this century ? And what if his hands were tied as to the application of any disciplinary action that would come anywhere near sufficiency ? Hell, Chuckles, he would become Silicon Valley's version of " Doin'-a-heck-of-a-job-Brownnie" in less that a week.

And what do you suppose those "good teachers" in high-scoring neighborhoods could do to deal with the punks pouring into their classrooms ? Do you suppose , Chuckster, that the "good" teachers would remedy the stingyness and inhumanity of the politicians and their fat-cigar-sucking-criminal-owners in industry who just recently refused to raise the minimum wage for the punks' parents so that maybe they could pay the bills AND raise the kids properly ? Do you really ? And after several generations of this, do you suppose the "good" teachers will magically transform the demographics of the incoming refugee students ? Hell Chuck, ..... vouchers ???? It's a bluff. The "good" schools would blanche if this actually happened.

I think maybe people, like Jobs, who have become acustomed to throwing their weight around and "just fire him" -ing people, in an environment where this tactic works well enough, would find themselves rudely awakened and in shock , if their disciplinary arm were hacked off at the shoulder. The same goes for other institutions like the military, medical schools, private and exclusive academies, etc.

Again, Chuckman, a public school is none of those institutions. "THINK DIFFERENT" and know that you don't have anything on your shelf that I haven't tried already.

This is why you limit your post to pissy little one liners.

(3)

When dealing with an interaction between two persons,
it is basic ethics to note that the end result is not the sole responsibilty of one of them. Do you really need this explained to you, Chuckerman ?

Here then, ... it's just like football: if the QB throws a long pass and hits the receiver squarely on the chest and that receiver continues to pick his nose and scratch his crotch while the ball falls to the turf and is snatched by the other team, ..... then you would be a real slime bucket to fire the QB , right ?

Well I hope this helps.

Oh, and don't forget : we need teachers in the classroom.
Come on in, the water is fine.

Any more questions ?
---gooddog

/
: * ] AAAAaaaRRRrrrFFFFff !!!
\
Reply
---gooddog

/
: * ] AAAAaaaRRRrrrFFFFff !!!
\
Reply
post #214 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

Yes, I'm aware. He or she didn't do so in an even remotely eloquent, coherent manner, however.

_______________________________

You are talking about taking my bread and butter and ruining me for something I am not guilty of, after I sacrificed most of my youth for my career. So BITE ME !

Was that nearly eloquent enough ?
---gooddog

/
: * ] AAAAaaaRRRrrrFFFFff !!!
\
Reply
---gooddog

/
: * ] AAAAaaaRRRrrrFFFFff !!!
\
Reply
post #215 of 294
[QUOTE=vinea;1046043]Gooddog was that teacher screaming at the camera to prove he was a bad teacher...

--------

Wrong coast. I scream from South Central LA, CA.

But that's OK sweetie. You can bite me too.

Love,
---gooddog

/
: * ] AAAAaaaRRRrrrFFFFff !!!
\
Reply
---gooddog

/
: * ] AAAAaaaRRRrrrFFFFff !!!
\
Reply
post #216 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

_______________________________

You are talking about taking my bread and butter and ruining me for something I am not guilty of, after I sacrificed most of my youth for my career. So BITE ME !

Was that nearly eloquent enough ?

My father is a teacher. I have deep respect for him and many of his colleagues.

So, yes. Bite you.
post #217 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbrain View Post

Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.

What planet are you talking about? I've been teaching 10 years I can tell you this is a falsehood. I work 210 days a year. I go to school when I'm not teaching in order to maintain my license. I do this for less than 45K and I really don't mind or I wouldn't do it. I do wish, however, that you would get your facts straight. $54K is the best I've heard of any retiree making in this area (Many end up substituting to keep up with diminished health benefits.)
post #218 of 294
Steve Jobs is absolutely right about 'claiming no amount of technology in the classroom would improve public schools". This should also include bad principals who do not work in partnerships with their staff, who 'fires bad principals'! I've seen too many principals & teachers self absorbed in technology, and not about creating the conditions for their students learning. Too many schools are still hiding behind the outdated institutional curriculum and not harnessing the computer as a valuable learning tool. The best learning takes place when the learner takes charge of their own learning. Technology in the classroom needs to backed up by improved teacher training, full time technicians in all schools, old schools being redesigned to incorporate technology and professional development for all teachers to keep up with new trends in technology.
post #219 of 294
See below, and consider this: private schools can expel problematic students permanently for virtually any reason. They can even expel students for truancy and lousy academic performance. The public school I work in certainly doesn't have this luxury. Please think about the implications of that before ignorantly bashing public school teachers.

---------------

CBS 3 Philadelphia - "Teacher Injured By Students Over Confiscated iPod"
Feb 24, 2007 10:46 am US/Eastern

[...]

Following class, authorities said the 17-year-old student and a 15-year-old freshman then assaulted the teacher in the hallway, knocking him to the ground.

[...]

Authorities said the 60-year-old teacher was taken to Albert Einstein Medical Center where he was listed in stable condition. He suffered two broken vertebrae in his neck and cuts to his face.

[...]

[FROM THE VIDEO]:

REPORTER: "Both had been expelled other years, but the state lawmakers and the courts have decided these types of individuals cannot be banned from school forever."

PAUL VALLAS, PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC SCHOOLS CEO: "Both had attended Roosevelt Middle School, and they had both been expelled from Roosevelt, but state law only allows you to expel a student for one year. After one year, students have to be reinstated."
post #220 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpparedisni View Post

See below, and consider this: private schools can expel problematic students permanently for virtually any reason. They can even expel students for truancy and lousy academic performance. The public school I work in certainly doesn't have this luxury. Please think about the implications of that before ignorantly bashing public school teachers.

I've said that this is a major liability that public schools bear in teaching our youth. NCLB doesn't take this into account.
post #221 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman sheepishly in another thread

I watched Shawn claim I was a racist in [this] thread

This is generally why people don't find you credible. I never said you were a racist. But had we gotten around to it, I would certainly think you support structurally racist policies that contribute to the achievement gap in education. Structural arguments are less about personal prejudice than about the consequences of the policies we enact.
post #222 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

This is generally why people don't find you credible. I never said you were a racist. But had we gotten around to it, I would certainly think you support structurally racist policies that contribute to the achievement gap in education. Structural arguments are less about personal prejudice than about the consequences of the policies we enact.

Listen Shawn, you are the uncredible one. You have yet again ducked the question. You've claimed you didn't call me a racist. Instead you simply made up a reply where you claim I said these words.

Nick's response: "It's the black people and poor people's fault."

Your bullshit gets tiring. "Yes Nick, I didn't say you were a racist, I just put words into your mouth that suggest racism."

Someone is going to lose an awful lot of money someday when that poor intellect of yours fails the test in a courtroom. It will be a very expensive lesson when that silver spoon is slapped out of your mouth and no one lets you be dismissive or assume an air of authority simply because you think you deserve one.

Finally you claim, that I support structually racist policies and so I ask you about the outcomes associated with your (as claimed by you) supposedly racially-neutral policies. You refuse to address the outcome of what you desire.

Answer me this Shawn, you advocate the leveling of opportunities, as if such a thing were even possible to predict and track. If it were possible and they were level, do you honestly expect fully equitable outcomes?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #223 of 294
Play nice, now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Listen Shawn, you are the uncredible one. You have yet again ducked the question. You've claimed you didn't call me a racist. Instead you simply made up a reply where you claim I said these words.

Nick's response: "It's the black people and poor people's fault."

Your bullshit gets tiring. "Yes Nick, I didn't say you were a racist, I just put words into your mouth that suggest racism."

No, it goes to what I was saying: is the achievement gap explained by only individual failings, where it's each black and poor person's fault for failing to meet state standards, or is the achievement gap explained by systemic factors, which are things generally beyond their control. Is it some combination of factors in your mind? Is it generally the individual's fault but they have some systemic factors working against them? Is it generally systemic factors?

I'd like you to try to keep a little more level head about this.
post #224 of 294
Yes, everyone can see how you replying as me in a cartoonish fashion really is the best and most straight forward way communicate a point. Obviously my own words were not good enough and so you had to reply as me pointing and accusing black and poor people to make your point instead. I need to put on my boots because your bullshit has gotten so thick.

You don't have to work so hard to be an example of your own point Shawn. Clearly you do believe that the achievement gap between you and others is because of the systemic factors because you work so hard to demonstrate your many individual and intellectual shortcomings that your historical privilege has allowed you to overcome.

However that is not true for all of us. Some of us, despite being white males, had to overcome homes just as broken or impoverished as those you imagine for other disadvantaged groups.

Perhaps now you could attend to this question which you have ignored for... what the third or fourth time?

Answer me this Shawn, you advocate the leveling of opportunities, as if such a thing were even possible to predict and track. If it were possible and they were level, do you honestly expect fully equitable outcomes?

Don't worry.... I'm giving you many opportunities to answer it since the system must help compensate for your many individual failings. I'll be happy to answer the many questions you levy when you stop ducking mine.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #225 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Answer me this Shawn, you advocate the leveling of opportunities, as if such a thing were even possible to predict and track. If it were possible and they were level, do you honestly expect fully equitable outcomes?


Nick

I'll take a stab as this is actually an easy question. Then I'm done with this thread as attacks are starting to get personal.

Even if the opportunities were 'level', the outcomes would almost certainly be 'different'. It would be interesting to see the diffences among groups though.Right now all we can do is speculate.
post #226 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdUcAtE View Post

What planet are you talking about? I've been teaching 10 years I can tell you this is a falsehood. I work 210 days a year. I go to school when I'm not teaching in order to maintain my license. I do this for less than 45K and I really don't mind or I wouldn't do it. I do wish, however, that you would get your facts straight. $54K is the best I've heard of any retiree making in this area (Many end up substituting to keep up with diminished health benefits.)

Oak Ridge Tennessee, Maryville Tennessee.

Those are an example of two schools within 45 minutes of me that are public and pay people who start out more than you are making now. You are getting the shaft.
Hard-Core.
Reply
Hard-Core.
Reply
post #227 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

You are talking about taking my bread and butter and ruining me for something I am not guilty of, after I sacrificed most of my youth for my career. So BITE ME !

Was that nearly eloquent enough ?

How can someone ruin a good teacher (in general) by providing more choices for the students or empowering a principal to remove bad teachers?

Yes, there are bad principals, just like bad bosses in all careers, that will fire good employees. In general, however, most folks will find better places to land.

I think that most "good" professionals of any field prefers accountability.

Vinea
post #228 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca View Post

This should also include bad principals who do not work in partnerships with their staff, who 'fires bad principals'!

I'm thinking if we went to a "voucher" system then the parents fires the bad principals by sending their kids to a different school where a principal can keep good staff.

Certainly turnover is one thing I looked at for daycare. Any place unable to keep staff has some kind of systemic problem that doesn't require any additional digging into. I just crossed them off the list and moved on.

Vinea
post #229 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post


Let's look at the commonplace arguments (1), (2), and (3) above more honestly.

(1) A teacher makes a social contract with the rest of the world : I will stay out of front line development in my subject in order to take successive generations of youngsters through the basics needed for them to advance to cutting edge work at a place like Apple Inc.

You are evidently not holding up your end of the social contract.

Quote:
This means that I will lose my own competitive marketability as a researcher as years go by. At 30 or 40 , I will not be able to compete in the research market, having forgotten much of my graduate school learning that simply isn't used for K-12 teaching and some of which has become obsolete. I will also be too old to hire: no one in industry hires you at entry level at 55 to retire or die or use up lots of medical benefits in just a few years.

Arguably without a PhD you aren't a researcher anyway. Not particularly MY argument given that I don't have a PhD but honestly most Masters programs are not what I would consider rigorous or challenging anyway.

Age discrimination and over-specialization is not specific to teachers anyway.

Quote:

If you betray me by violating that contract ; refusing me protection and denigrating me, then you are an unmanly moral coward.

No one has denigrated you. Your "protection" is not to allow bad teachers to continue to draw salary regardless of performance but to provide the ability to teach unpopular topics without undue interference. In any case, teacher tenure only started appearing in the 1920s and only became widespread by WWII its hard to insist that it's a fundamental requirement of the profession.

Quote:
Vouchers (even if sufficient to actually get these underachieving students to the "better" teachers: they are far from sufficient) would simply dump masses of ill-mannered punks and well mannered but unschooled students into the "better schools" to detroy them absolutely.

Obviously your skills as a researcher has deteriorated or you could do better than undocumented assertion...

I live in arguably the best school district in Maryland. And yet we still have to worry about which school our kids will end up in. In comparison to a system like Belgium its a no brainer...their system is superior to ours with their general, technical, professional, artistic and vocational tracks. That they couple that with financial accountability in the form of "vouchers" makes it more difficult to determine which factor is more important but who cares? Adopt both.

Your assumption is that with vouchers no new schools would appear. This appears to be incorrect. Also, wouldn't it be nice if private school teachers could be paid as much as their public school counterparts?

Quote:
Can you imagine what would become of Apple Inc. , Steve Jobs' image, and my Apple stock value if Jobs were forced to hire ill-mannered, indolent, violent, repugnant little thugs who flipped him the bird and laughed in his face as he walked down the hall ?

Oddly, you seem to share the same feelings about kids that some cops have on non-cops. They are perps...or in your case ill-mannered, indolent, violent, repugnant little thugs.

Oddly, none of the teachers in my family has described kids quite like that.

Quote:
Again, Chuckman, a public school is none of those institutions. "THINK DIFFERENT" and know that you don't have anything on your shelf that I haven't tried already.

This is why you limit your post to pissy little one liners.

At least he doesn't try to name drop in an internet forum or make fun of your internet handle with childish variations like "chuckman", "chucky" and "chuckster".

What are you? 12?

Quote:
Any more questions ?

Yes, do you really think that diatribe convinced anyone that you are either a) a good teacher or b) that tenure is a good idea if opposing views are met with such childish vehemence by self-proclaimed "good" teachers?

Yes, you are exactly like that teacher screaming into the camera...

Vinea
post #230 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I'll take a stab as this is actually an easy question. Then I'm done with this thread as attacks are starting to get personal.

Even if the opportunities were 'level', the outcomes would almost certainly be 'different'. It would be interesting to see the diffences among groups though.Right now all we can do is speculate.

Well we don't have to speculate. The differences among the groups do occur. You can have several different groups have the same opportunity but a very different result. The differences aren't institutional racism unless proven to be so. (Many allege that the mere differences themselves prove racism.) The differences aren't good or bad teachers. Sometimes the differences are just the students themselves and the background and effort they bring to their own education.

People seldom realize that we are not talking about instances of 0% and 100%. Often we are discussing disparities between two outcomes with one being bad simply because the other is better. If one inner-city high school has a drop out rate of 45% and has 5% of their students complete college preparatory material while another school has a 10% drop out rate 25% of the students complete college preparatory material it doesn't follow that the teachers at one school were automatically "good" and the others "bad."

You take this outside education and it is profoundly easy to understand. No one would call a doctor bad because he/she advised and treated the patient properly but the patient refused to eat right, exercise or stop smoking. A financial adviser would never be blamed for taking on two clients at the same age, making the same amount of money and people noting that when one followed the plan given while the other spent more than they made that the outcome was due to the adviser.

It is only education where parties appear to excuse individuals from their own actions. I'm not saying you are doing this, but that is the point of the question. You answered it while Shawn refused so thanks. You don't have to flee the thread unless you desire to stop discussion by associating certain parties with harmful thoughts and actions.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #231 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbrain View Post

Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.

Are you 16 years old? Because the only way I can keep from allowing myself to verbally tear you to shreds is if you're 16. Even then, things might get ugly.

40K per year is NOT a great salary. Especially when you consider the fact that most teachers will have get a masters degree!

I am an undergrad, but my wife just graduated a year ago with a BA and is currently making $39,000 per year in corporate communications. MOST jobs that require a four year degree start at around $40K a year.

Find one person YOU KNOW who has retired from teaching and were making close to 100K/year when they retired. IF you could find someone, they would probably have to be a college professor who had acheived a PhD and were the chair of thier department. And then you would have to consider the amount of debt they had incurred while getting thier education!

Teachers are woefully underpayed, and everyone but you knows it.
post #232 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by opnsource View Post

Are you 16 years old? Because the only way I can keep from allowing myself to verbally tear you to shreds is if you're 16. Even then, things might get ugly.

40K per year is NOT a great salary. Especially when you consider the fact that most teachers will have get a masters degree!

I am an undergrad, but my wife just graduated a year ago with a BA and is currently making $39,000 per year in corporate communications. MOST jobs that require a four year degree start at around $40K a year.

Find one person YOU KNOW who has retired from teaching and were making close to 100K/year when they retired. IF you could find someone, they would probably have to be a college professor who had acheived a PhD and were the chair of thier department. And then you would have to consider the amount of debt they had incurred while getting thier education!

Teachers are woefully underpayed, and everyone but you knows it.

Truth be told , it depends on where they live , on where they teach and how we define and perceive the term underpaid . Having a salary of 85k might be termed underpaid in one district but the same amount might be the ideal pay in a neighboring school district .It will all depend on taxes and the corresponding economic status of the community where the schools are located as well as a person's own spending habits.
post #233 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by opnsource View Post

Find one person YOU KNOW who has retired from teaching and were making close to 100K/year when they retired. IF you could find someone, they would probably have to be a college professor who had acheived a PhD and were the chair of thier department. And then you would have to consider the amount of debt they had incurred while getting thier education!

A few things:

1) That figure of the average salary of a college professor is, as many people have noted, skewed by a variety of factors. Engineers, business people, and science folks make much more money than, say, an English professor.

2) One thing that people don't seem to consider about PhDs is that we don't *begin* our careers until we're around 30, and in many disciplines, that's remarkably early (some disciplines don't acre much for the MA/MS, and so you just enter a PhD program and are awarded the equivalent of an MA along the way). And those years between 21 (grad from college) and 31 (getting a job) mean in many cases you haven't paid social security or made enough to contribute to a retirement fund—it's difficult to contribute to a fund when your takehome is $800 a month. I haven't even mentioned debt. Most of the folks I know owe between $30K and $100K for their educations. My point is that the professoriate actually has to work longer than the average worker in order to be able to afford to retire. Ever wonder where that image of the wizened old professor comes from?

3) Chairs of departments may pick up a little extra salary, but usually the compensation is in teaching reduction. Chair positions are incredibly, incredibly demanding, a kind of death by 1000 meetings.

But are teachers generally underpaid? Yes. That's usually offset, though, by benefits (if you're lucky). But what people who bark about only working 9-10 months don't seem to get is that we're not paid for those months when we don't work.

Edit: I meant to point out, above, that my salary, which is $11K less than the national average, is offset by my benefits, which are really unbelievable. So my uni manages to keep people it otherwise wouldn't simply because they don't want to lose the benes.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #234 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wil View Post

Truth be told , it depends on where they live , on where they teach and how we define and perceive the term underpaid . Having a salary of 85k might be termed underpaid in one district but the same amount might be the ideal pay in a neighboring school district .It will all depend on taxes and the corresponding economic status of the community where the schools are located as well as a person's own spending habits.

When I first went on the job market, I interviewed for a position at Long Island U. The salary was $55K a year. In Long Island.

I watched that position re-appear on the job list, I believe, two years in a row.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #235 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I'm thinking if we went to a "voucher" system then the parents fires the bad principals by sending their kids to a different school where a principal can keep good staff.

Certainly turnover is one thing I looked at for daycare. Any place unable to keep staff has some kind of systemic problem that doesn't require any additional digging into. I just crossed them off the list and moved on.

Vinea

Sometimes parents have'nt got that option of"pulling" their kids out of schools because of distance factors and the extra cost of relocating. In Australia "bad principals" are protected by the Education Department even when school council has been dissolved and interim school councils are set up by the Department. Contract teachers are afraid to voice their opinions because the Principal has the ultimate power over their employment contract. Control freaks rule!
post #236 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

A few things:

1) That figure of the average salary of a college professor is, as many people have noted, skewed by a variety of factors. Engineers, business people, and science folks make much more money than, say, an English professor.

Yes but $78K or whatever it was average for an English professor (full) is not too shabby either.

Quote:
2) One thing that people don't seem to consider about PhDs is that we don't *begin* our careers until we're around 30, and in many disciplines, that's remarkably early (some disciplines don't acre much for the MA/MS, and so you just enter a PhD program and are awarded the equivalent of an MA along the way). And those years between 21 (grad from college) and 31 (getting a job) mean in many cases you haven't paid social security or made enough to contribute to a retirement fund—it's difficult to contribute to a fund when your takehome is $800 a month. I haven't even mentioned debt. Most of the folks I know owe between $30K and $100K for their educations. My point is that the professoriate actually has to work longer than the average worker in order to be able to afford to retire.

This is true for any profession requiring a long education process. Doctors, scientists, etc. A PhD in chem or bio in the federal government gets you only GS-12 to 14 pay at the top end too. Educators are not the only ones in this boat.

Quote:
Ever wonder where that image of the wizened old professor comes from?

Tenure?

Quote:
But are teachers generally underpaid? Yes. That's usually offset, though, by benefits (if you're lucky). But what people who bark about only working 9-10 months don't seem to get is that we're not paid for those months when we don't work.

If you make $70K-$90K a year working 9-10 months a year then not getting paid those other 3 months is not a hardship. Trust me...if I could make $70K in 9 months you wouldn't see me at work those other 3 months unless you gave me another $70K. 3-4 weeks a year is what the rest of us get.

With respect to workload lets get real here. I don't know what business profs have to do but I do know the oft cited CS profs skewing the curve are getting grants and doing research (UMCP profs are my baseline in this comparison) as well as teaching. In comparison non-research oriented profs teach, have office hours and um...the occasional paper based, if anything, on lit search... Especially at the lesser unis. My dad certainly did not have the same sort of workload as a reseach prof fighting for grants every year until he made department head and then yes...death by a 1000 meetings.

Quote:
Edit: I meant to point out, above, that my salary, which is $11K less than the national average, is offset by my benefits, which are really unbelievable. So my uni manages to keep people it otherwise wouldn't simply because they don't want to lose the benes.

Heh...and other univerisities like my dad's offered higher than average salary for really crappy benefits. What constitutes unbelievable benefits?

Vinea
post #237 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca View Post

Sometimes parents have'nt got that option of"pulling" their kids out of schools because of distance factors and the extra cost of relocating. In Australia "bad principals" are protected by the Education Department even when school council has been dissolved and interim school councils are set up by the Department. Contract teachers are afraid to voice their opinions because the Principal has the ultimate power over their employment contract. Control freaks rule!

Yes, replacing a so-so system with another so-so system is sub-optimal. Whenever you have a class of folks that can operate with impunity you create the scenario where abuse occurs. Replacing unfireable teachers with equally unfireable principals wouldn't seem very useful.

The devil is always in the details.

Vinea
post #238 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes but $78K or whatever it was average for an English professor (full) is not too shabby either.

No, it's not. Don't get me wrong. I ain't complaining. I have one of the best jobs in the world. It's a lot of work, but it's work I like.

However, as you no doubt know, getting to the rank of full professor takes a good deal of time. These days, most of the jobs I'm seeing start at the ~$40-50K range for an assistant professor position and then move up from there with cost of living increases and merit pay and whatnot. At each rank (I know you know this, but I'm just spelling it out for the sake of posterity ) you get a pay bump that can take any of a number of forms (percentage of base/starting salary, lump sum, etc). Tenure and promotion to associate happens, in most place, after 6 years. Going up for full takes a little longer and requires some delicate politicking, if my read of it all is correct. I say this because when I was in grad school, and I did my MA and PhD at the same place, NONE of the associate professors who were there went up for full while I was there (1995-2003). None. They were publishing books. They were publishing articles (at least one a year). I *think* the pay at full for them was about $70K. And these people were all in their late 40s and early 50s. The small number of full professors we had were all late 50s and 60+.

My point is that the salary of a full professor is the salary of a person at the END of a career.

Quote:
This is true for any profession requiring a long education process. Doctors, scientists, etc. A PhD in chem or bio in the federal government gets you only GS-12 to 14 pay at the top end too. Educators are not the only ones in this boat.

Sure. I have had some interesting discussions about this with lawyer and doctor friends. We all tend to look at it the same way: sure, my education cost as much as a house. But it's just what you have to do to be qualified.

Quote:
Tenure?

Heh. Not if tenure happens when you're 43. I'll go up for tenure at 37.

Quote:
If you make $70K-$90K a year working 9-10 months a year then not getting paid those other 3 months is not a hardship. Trust me...if I could make $70K in 9 months you wouldn't see me at work those other 3 months unless you gave me another $70K. 3-4 weeks a year is what the rest of us get.

Sure. But again, the average joe in the trenches in a discipline like mine is making about HALF what you're talking about. Would you be willing to make $45K on a 9-month stretch BUT spread that salary out over 12 months? In other words, if you make $45K a year, you have the option to be paid ONLY for the 9 months you work OR spread the salary out over 12. That's what most of us do, although I had a prof in grad school who didn't. They spent their summers living on credit cards. I never understood the logic of that, but they were odd folks anyway.

Quote:
With respect to workload lets get real here. I don't know what business profs have to do but I do know the oft cited CS profs skewing the curve are getting grants and doing research (UMCP profs are my baseline in this comparison) as well as teaching.

Sure. And those grants are used to fund TA and RA positions and labs and salaries and all kinds of things. Not all disciplines can do that. Case-in-point: tomorrow, I'll file a grant application for $5K so I can go to London this summer and work in the British Library (I shall try my best not to get caught up in a terrorist attack this time). That grant will likely be cut in half. That's just the nature of the game. Is it fair? No. Ought it be? Dunno. I'm not John Rawls.

Quote:
In comparison non-research oriented profs teach, have office hours and um...the occasional paper based, if anything, on lit search...

Well, that's a cultural problem of people simply not knowing what lots of disciplines in the humanities are about. What confuses the hell out of me, though, is why History professors are generally treated ok in popular consciousness while English professors (most of whom these days do work that is largely historical in nature) get treated with incredible suspicion, as if we're all failed novelists or something. My students seem to think that I sit around an "interpret" literature for a living (which to them means I sit around and write about how some poem made me feel), which is not really what I do at all. I suspect that this is a function of shifts in English pedagogy in the 1960s that linger on today, but that's another discussion.

Quote:
Especially at the lesser unis.

Different unis have different standards. But it is a trusim that the humanities tend to not be funded as well as other disciplines.

Quote:
My dad certainly did not have the same sort of workload as a reseach prof fighting for grants every year until he made department head and then yes...death by a 1000 meetings.

Ugh. I can believe it. My wife is threatening to stand for chairmanship when she gets tenure. I don't think it's a good idea. I don't know how people do it.

Quote:
What constitutes unbelievable benefits?

Full medical. Covers anyone in the family. If you have two employees, you're double-covered. I have never paid a dime for anything medical since I've been here. For retirement, the system PAYS 14.2% into the pension. Not matches. Pays. My father, who works as a psych counselor (a kind of line of defense for the shrinks) has worked for 30 years at the same job and they will MATCH up to 6%.

Would you be so kind as to remove the reference to my uni? I try to maintain some vestige of anonymity around here. Thanks.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #239 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes, replacing a so-so system with another so-so system is sub-optimal. Whenever you have a class of folks that can operate with impunity you create the scenario where abuse occurs. Replacing unfireable teachers with equally unfireable principals wouldn't seem very useful.

The devil is always in the details.

Vinea

Yes, so much energy goes into dysfunction and cover-up than into educating the students. The so-so system becomes a selfish system for the devil's advocate!
post #240 of 294
1). Subjects lack Applied Projects. This goes for every subject. You want to understand your subjects, not either regurgitate or bs your way through them. To learn any Applied Science you need to projects. You want to learn the first 3 laws of Motion then you need a means to model and interpret simulations of how they apply to general industries. This leads to the second problem facing the US.

2). Fear of future Columbines has meant schools removing Chemistry labs and various other laboratories for students to get hands-on experience. The availability of skilled craftsmen teaching high school students is going the way of the dodo bird.

3). Instead of just bitching about your salaries, use your students interest as leverage by brokering more areas for students to learn skills. If this means you become obsolete then so be it. You're focus as a Teacher is to teach and not concern yourself with permanency of a job first.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple's Jobs blasts teachers unions