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post #281 of 294
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Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

It's a lousy comparison.

But one under discussion...if you prefer to compare the US system to Cuba that's fine. I would think that a system that allows kids to read marx vs my pet goat and a 97% literacy rate would be considered by some to be superior...but not me.

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The crony system you would replace it with has always been far worse. Again, principals and superintendents have shown themselves to be ethically, professionally, and pedagogically incompetent to wield such power.

Yes, every principle, superintendent, etc is incompetent and the nature of the job precludes anyone from doing it well.

However, it seems in a free market system that companies with abusive, cronyistic, incompetent managers get clobbered by companies with less-incompetent managers (abusive or cronyistic or otherwise).

One would hope that competition in the education system would weed out some of the incompetents you decry and since they add questionable value the number of useless consultants would be reduced too.

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In Cuba, we call such a parasite a "yam with a necktie".

The current system promotes having more yams. Why NOT change it?

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Don't fool yourself. I have not only considered it : unlike you, I have lived it. And I have rejected it. All bulwarks against injustice, cronyism, and nepotism have obstructed efficiency in some ways , throughout history. Our Constitution is just such a bulwark. In a dictatorship , like Castro's Cuba, I experienced the efficiency you dream of when illiteracy was taken from about 85 % to under 3 % in about a year.

This isn't Cuba. There is a constitution. Vouchers wouldn't change that.

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Hahn behaved like a worm. He was almost as good a researcher as Meitner, but a lousy guardian of academic excellence and civic duty; especially after the war -- get it?

You touted Meitner as an example of a researcher. She had a PhD. Get it?

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Don't try manipulative language with me V. Not "supporting" --- I said DOING --- that means designing, testing, running, inventing, perfecting, ALL OF IT.

/shrug

The argument has been that typically folks without a PhD don't have the formal training to perform research with the rigor required for scientific study.

My counterarguement is that some disciplines, by their nature, conduct research....in the sense that they systematically have a way of solving problems. But it is true that most folks, even with masters, do not get the formal training for conducting scientific research.

Hence most folks doing real research (scientific inquiry) at NASA have PhDs. Its not like its THAT hard to get a PhD. All it takes is a little perseverance and tolerance for BS.

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I don't deny the Ph.D.'s their due. But, you minimize the role of the Masters far too much. This is due to the fact that you are ignorant and evil. You must reform. You ought to give all the little people what they are due.

Ad hominem and silly. Being of the "little people" I give us plenty of credit and due. I simply stuck the PhD thing at you because you kept puffing yourself up and I figured it would annoy you. It seems to have.

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Many WWII Ph.D.'s had to "grind" through about as much work as a middling B.A. does today. The M.A. at my Alma Matter was far more challenging than many Ph.D.'s at other schools.

See...you keep trying to justify that your MA is as valuable as someone else's PhD. It doesn't matter...and perhaps I shouldn't have jabbed you with the PhD stick but hey...

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It's just that in real life ( not your bubble world ) most Ph.D.'s are honest enough to tell you themselves that the degree guarantees little of what you imagine. Most of them will get a real chuckle out of your pretended naiveté.

Most PhDs would disagree that the only thing that a PhD signifies is that someone stuck to getting a PhD and that the person showed that they could do independent research once?

It's not exactly what I would call a very high bar. But it seems that despite your great intellect you read what you want to read rather than what is actually written.

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It is obvious that you are begining to feel the weight of my arguments : you have reduced yourself to denying my veracity rather than countering with something resembling reason. That was a real give-away, Vinny.

The point is on the internet folks are anonymous. Any purported credentials are as often false as true. The only thing that matters is what you say, not who you say you are.

On the rare occasion you had points to counter, I have either done so or agreed with your point. Terrible isn't it?

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Less...more.... Bah, don't waste our time. Cronyistic systems that you prefer to unionized ones REWARD thieves.
Don't you keep up with current affairs ? None of the thieves in my friend's case lost a damn thing. Plagiarism is rampant in research -- not rare. Jeeezzz !!!

Sorry, my own experienced indicates otherwise. Given that you don't know who I am or my background it would be as impossible for you to refute my experiences as it is for me to refute yours.

Meaning...our personal experiences don't really matter when debating any issue on the net.

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More fantasy bull crap from neo-con-man planet.
Don't worry so much about flavors and try to show a little morality once in a while.

Right. Because your friend isn't currently successful as you claim with work on the Discovery channel and papers. The theft of any particular item of work is annoying, unjust and unethical but the only way it's debilitating is if you let it embitter you (or you decide to fight a battle you can't win and manage to destroy yourself in the process).

Nothing too controversial about that.

Odds are, while there was no official impact word has gotten around. It always does. What? In your vast experience far superior to mine that you've found that grad students don't talk to each other? Odd...

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Don't try your ludicrous pronouncements of grand edicts re. what my facts are worth. If they were worthless you would not snipe at their authenticity : you would counter the argument. Again, a real give-away, Vinny .

For all we know, you are an 18 year old loser with not a single clue about the real world , failing in artsy-fartsy land, collecting 50¢ per post from the neo-con-man internet propaganda army, and posting under a dozen names to seem bigger than a louse.

EXACTLY. I could be an 18 year old loser without a clue. Only the strength (or lack thereof) of my argument has any merit. Not who I might or might not be.

But you should hope I am not an 18 year old loser without a clue...in as much as one of us looks better than the other at the moment.

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And UTLA never said why they opposed it ? Why isn't that just awful ? !

Given that you are a member then perhaps rather than my possibly biased synopis you could provide your own? Seriously. After all, I agreed on the tenure issue to a point.

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I contributed to those millions. I am a UTLA member. What of it ? It balances the neo-con-man funding of biggots. You don't like the turnabout ?

I just like charter schools from the good they seem to do from a parent perspective.

Besides, two wrongs hardly makes a right. The conservative money and influence is a corruptive influence on the political process. That doesn't mean that union activities are any more justified.

The funny thing about being a moderate is that you get called neo-cons by liberals and um...liberals by neo-cons. Both sides are so polarized that everyone not an extremist on their side is an enemy.

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Yes, I guess you would think that. Your schools and "competent administrators" seem to materialize, deus ex machina, at your beck and call. Whence these saviors, Vinny ? Any idea ?

If your position is that there are no competent administrators then your conclusion would be correct. None could appear.

Given that your premise is incorrect, it would seem that if there were market forces that would reward competent administration of schools some competent folks might apply for the job. Perhaps even you.

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It has made it safe for teachers to teach science instead of fundamentalist stupidity. It has made it possible for teachers to expose fraudulent programs foisted by admin politicos at the expense of tax payers and kids. It has attracted the majority of teachers ( read --- good teachers ) to risk a commitment to teaching that is seldom reversible in fields like science, engineering, mathematics, and such. It has made it possible for history teachers to include the contributions of women and minorities in their lessons as well as exposing the revisionist, neo-con-man bull crap that passed for history and current events previously. It keeps countless women from having to lay the fat principal unless she wants to. Oh, and don't forget the aqueducts !

See...here's a reasonable argument. Yes, you are correct. Tenure has produced these things and they are valuable. On the other hand tenure also give you the hidebound old and untouchable professors that you decry and in my opinion broken public school system.

So, how can we protect teachers from fundamentalist stupidity without the resulting ills?

The points I disagree with is that teaching is any more irreversible as a career as any other that requires commitment to some kind of specialization and that normal employment laws cannot protect against sexual abuse/misconduct (which they have).

But if it really is a requirement, you can keep your tenure system as long as you allow alternative education systems to be tried. Things like vouchers and charter schools. Fair?

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No fair !!! If you get on my side we can't argue.
I am certainly not going to trade sides with you!

Not everyone belongs on a "side".

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BTW, why must you always manipulate ? Did I say "1-1" ?

You didn't say 1-1, I said 1-1. Its not manipulative to offer my opinion on what is doing mainstreaming correctly. 3-1 didn't seem to work completely. 1-1 may not either.

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Anyway, it takes fewer than five disruptive kids ( SE or punk , doesn't matter ) to kill a class.

Well, if class sizes dropped 25%-30% I would hope you also have 25%-30% fewer punks.

If every SE had an aide that could remove/handle them when they were disruptive that would minimize the impact to you and your primary desire to teach. Hence 1-1.

5 SE's in one class is too many anyway, even if you had 6 adults.

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OK, so you only screw half of the families.

Better than screwing all of them.

Education is the one of the few things that can break the poverty cycle. There are families that desire to break the cycle and there are ones that don't care.

Helping families that want to break the cycle is more important to me than continuing a system that tries to provide equally bad opportunities all around.

Sounds rather harsh but frankly avoiding 1 crying mother and child that didn't make it into a charter school via lottery is worth screwing 10 punks AND you. That's one more potential leader getting a fair chance. Enough of them and what do you know...even the Republican party will start looking a little more tan and they wont be tokens...

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Because nobody wants to be pissed on by you ?
Because corporate-fascist worms squander trillions on murder abroad so we can't afford enough schools and teachers ?
Because without tenure, you have to live in fear of being canned by an idiot admin regardless of your skills ?
Because it's really hard for a man to get laid if he is identified as a school teacher ( unlike college profs -- need I relate anecdotes ? -- got the scoop on both sides, you know ) ?
Because most of you barbarians don't like kids nearly as much as you advertise ?
Because whorehouses are funded better than schools and visited more frequently as well ? Wanna hear about my years in the bordello ?

So these are reasons that class sizes are still so large despite spending more money than ever?

At least we can now understand one reason you seem so angry all the time.

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We buy them books and we buy them books, and all they do is eat the covers. How long do you think it takes a punk to trash a $50 book or a $700 computer ? About 3 seconds in both cases. So, fire the teachers ?

And the high price consultants are helping you how? At least you'd get 6 seconds of use...or maybe you could take all that money spent on admins and consultants and hire...OMG...more teachers?

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No, no --- it will result in a concentration of punks in schools where parents can't pay the balance of the private school, or parents are crackheads, or parents don't dare risk deportation, or parents can't travel the distance, etc.

Or perhaps the public school system will be forced to improve so they get something other than punks? I would hope that the vouchers would provide sufficient funds to cover the entiere tuition. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that any school accepting vouchers could not charge any additional tuition to level the playing field.

The objective is to provide better education at a lower cost. Not make some private school owner richer.

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Again, it only takes three punks or so to ruin the education of thirty kids. The kids will tell you this themselves. Are you from Earth ? And the punk virus is transmitted by air.

And 30 kids is around 10 too many. Can you handle 2 punks?

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Your wife must be much kinder than I.
I hope you remained good friends.

Evidently. All her friends too. Yes, we did.

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And whom did you teach today ?

You know, all this time you spend lying on the web could be spent volunteering to tutor kids, read to them, make parent contacts, .... you know ... helping ???

And you know I do none of these how? Would you be surprised that spouses of teachers get volunteered to help out? And some folks actually keep doing it?

But no, I don't do as much as I used to (since I'm not married to her anymore AND I live far away from her old school where I knew folks) which was refurbing old donated computers for use in their school.

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Sorry, I imagined a call for me to be banned.... must be all that jade.

If you do get banned it will be because you continue to be abusive. Not because of any particular view you support.

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Anyway, neo-con-men who screw teachers, minority kids and parents, and other decent working-class people, with phoney benevolence, are biggots.
Nothing to do with my ethnicity.

It's your biggotry.

Yeah right. Or perhaps some minorities are kinda tired of the whole spiel? Nah. Everyone that disagrees is a neo-con...or worse...a sellout. Care to call me a vendido? You seem to like namecalling.

Oddly, given that you're part of the system, that label might more accurately be applied to you no? After all, to your kids you are the representative of Da Man.

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I know you O'Reilly types love to wheel out the hackneyed "victim syndrome" crap when you run out of talking points.

You know, you can't really piss me off by calling me something I'm not.

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That you think I am Black is a real give-away, Vinny.

Did you pilfer my injector ? Shame on you!

Well, I suppose some Cubans are black but it never occured to me since you made it pretty clear a few posts ago that you were hispanic, specifically Cuban.

What makes you think I'm not a black hispanic irish navajo chinese arab persian mix? But no, I'm not. As far as I know anyway. Mom would have some serious questions to answer if so.

Vinea
post #282 of 294
Man. Now I'm wondering whether I should've gotten a PhD, since all I apparently needed to do was get a BA from a challenging school.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #283 of 294
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Man. Now I'm wondering whether I should've gotten a PhD, since all I apparently needed to do was get a BA from a challenging school.

No, a master's is minimally required at community colleges anyway. But, in physics, it is an artificially imposed requirement. Just ask anyone in that field. I don't know if it makes a big difference in English teaching positions.

I have it, from professors themselves, that their WWII Ph.D. requirements were far less than our M.A. requirements now.
Many older profs, in physics, got their doctorates in conjunction with war-time research on radar etc. Quantum theory and relativity were not taught extensively yet. Today, a doctoral candidate working on string theory and even more recent approaches to unification, must incorporate all of the old material and be very proficient with an enormous volume of very difficult new mathematics. This is because of the cumulative nature of the discipline. Relativity begins with Maxwell and Newton. Even Einstein's field equations of "long ago" are formidable to treat analytically. My uni had an inferiority complex because the Physics Department could not possibly fund experimental physics ( it can now ) for Ph.D. thesis work. Not offering a doctorate (except in conjunction with math or engineering) they placed a very high standard on the M.A. and M.S. degree. I have compared M.A. theses from our school with Ph.D. theses from several others and they are usually equivalent and sometimes superior. I did this when I helped classmates review prior work from around the country as it related to their M.A. work. The theses are published for that purpose. Visiting alumni from other, more prestigious uni's mentioned this too. They started their Ph.D.'s there and found they were almost done going in. If you teach physics in a community college, you will find the material does not really require even a master's. A student would benefit more from an instructor with a solid B.Sc. who is very good at explaining and helping, than one with a Ph.D. who is not in love with teaching. Does this really sound that ridiculous to you? If so, why ?

I am not puffing up anything; just relating facts from my experience.

I gave the example of the Ph.D. from Stanford because it simply is a fact. He went through my library and expressed surprise that my texts were often the ones he used only revised and updated. His second-year students asked for me to replace him whenever I answered their questions in my adjacent office in his absence. He let five of them work as a group in the lab. This means he had three papers to grade. It also meant that most of the group chatted and did not contribute or learn much. Then he had the lab tech grade the three papers ( each consisted of one page with the result , say the measured speed of light, jotted down ) and enter them in his roll book. By contrast, I had two students per team. I graded all the papers myself. Each consisted of a complete lab report with intro, equipment list, procedures, tables, calculations, graphs, error analysis, conclusion etc.
My first-year students got far better results than his advanced classes. I know it is convenient for vinea to say I am making this up. But, I am not. And I am not obligated to leave my experience at the door when I enter this forum -- who does ?
---gooddog

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---gooddog

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post #284 of 294
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Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

No, a master's is minimally required at community colleges anyway. But, in physics, it is an artificially imposed requirement. Just ask anyone in that field. I don't know if it makes a big difference in English teaching positions.

But I don't want to teach at a community college. I want my tenure-track job with funding for research and travel where I get to teach pretty much whatever I want.

But you do realize that it's all an artificially imposed requirement, right?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #285 of 294
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But one under discussion...if you prefer to compare the US system to Cuba that's fine. I would think that a system that allows kids to read marx vs my pet goat and a 97% literacy rate would be considered by some to be superior...but not me.

Why ?



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Yes, every principle, superintendent, etc is incompetent and the nature of the job precludes anyone from doing it well.

Just enough of them. This is why God invented UNIONS.

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However, it seems in a free market system that companies with abusive, cronyistic, incompetent managers get clobbered by companies with less-incompetent managers (abusive or cronyistic or otherwise).

Where is this "free-market" system???



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One would hope that competition in the education system would weed out some of the incompetents you decry and since they add questionable value the number of useless consultants would be reduced too.

"Competition" is a very misleading word. Many readers will infer the modifier "fair" when it isn't even implied and is mostly precluded. "Competition" is a word useful, mostly, to the guy who has the inside track via cronyism, nepotism, racism, sexism, etc. Pseudo-competitive neo-con-men throw the word around to intimidate decent people. They seldom mention that they got into a good school because Daddy is an alumnus. That few profs would flunk a Bush, for example, even if simian. That at times when poverty and tragedies can derail a career; folks who can return home to free room and board and maid service from mom; who can get a "good word" from a powerful relative etc. will be able to recover and conclude their career plans. How do you suppose a Ph.D. from Stanford can not know the answer to the "h-bar" 4pi factor that I mentioned. I have spent many hours conversing with very well-known scientists and corporate warlord types and they understand this as a given. Why can't you ? I think it's because intimidation and non-competitive censorship is your real game. Yes ?



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The current system promotes having more yams. Why NOT change it?

I am not opposed to changing it.
I just won't let your type use the need for change as a foot-in-the-door for neo-con-men to achieve their expressed goal of doing to academia (especially K-12) what they have done to the Southern Baptist Convention, the Republican party, half of the Democratic party, much of the Armed Forces and more.

You never explain how your "competition" will help anything. You seem to think that all we need to do is be bastards and some darwinian magic will take its course and improve education.

Not to call on my experience again but, I have it from very high level project managers at NASA ( now , please, don't have a fit ) that what is called "competition" among various labs in NASA is really little more than incredibly wasteful duplication that does little to improve performance. Remember the Hubble and several Mars missions. These are not UTLA members telling me this Vinny. These are the people who are in very "competitive" positions. I am not saying it is always useless. I am saying that you use the word like an orangutan uses a stradivarius. And it is transparent that your intimidation attempts re. competition, firing, etc. are malevolent in effect. You may want to consider "cooperation" some time soon. Much recent research with animal behavior shows that it plays a far more powerful role in success than competition does. In fact, save for letting females pick a strong genotype for their sperm, it does little else. The actual business of coping with life is dominated by cooperation.




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This isn't Cuba. There is a constitution. Vouchers wouldn't change that.

Look again. There is a reason why someone is introducing a bill to "reinstate the constitution". It's called a constitutional crisis and it's about to rock your world.



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You touted Meitner as an example of a researcher. She had a PhD. Get it?

Her boss was inferior intellectually and morally. Got it?



/shrug

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The argument has been that typically folks without a PhD don't have the formal training to perform research with the rigor required for scientific study.

I did. My case was not rare at all.
I know you will agree that I am not a genius ( quiet down now ). And yet, I have it from a top researcher at Sandia Labs that my work ( just the conceptual preliminaries -- not even the mathematical modeling work ) with laser traps is something to be proud of in my Junior year. And that "many experienced Ph.D.'s work for decades without producing as much". This, from letters exchanged with him and his similar and successful work. Gee, all the really top-notch people I have met, at University and in NASA, never come off as pretentious and mean-spirited as you do.

Here, yet again, you show you tourist's perception of what scientific research really is, and replace reality with the forms that beaurocracies and power games present to the world.

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My counterarguement is that some disciplines, by their nature, conduct research....in the sense that they systematically have a way of solving problems. But it is true that most folks, even with masters, do not get the formal training for conducting scientific research.

Much of the reason for the requirement of a doctorate is in the nature of hierarchical institutions. It establishes a population of underlings to do much of the grunt work. In science, the treasures are often found by them, deep in the pile of grunt work, and the credit goes to the big guys. There is also a tendency for the project leaders to get totally eaten by beaurocratic paperwork, travel, etc. They often fall behind on what the masters gals and guys are doing and these actually hold internal mini-lessons to bring their doctors up to date. By the way, project managers who have practically zero scientific training and are, instead, MBA's working on flow charts and seeing that a milestone isn't missed --- are the top survivors when budget cuts come. And they have well under a B.A. in scientific fields. Ditto for code pounders who may be needed for reasons other than their scientific knowledge. It is commonplace for theoreticians to FORTRAN their own code (ugly, unstructured, undocumented) when testing key concepts rather than assigning it to the SW team. This is because it is sometimes easier for a physicist to do a little dirty FORTRAN than for her to teach physics to a SW team to the degree necessary for the team to avoid conceptual errors hidden subtly in the code. This is what I did at NASA. The SW team was awesome. Especially Janie --- (had to drop a name) who could pound out great code as fast as she could type. And the SW she was in charge of required her wonderfulness. But when we wanted to calculate convolution integrals of overlapped spectra and other fancy stuff, we wrote our own. There you have a team of SW developers who know well less than what a Ph.D. knows in their field and yet they are doing invaluable work.


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Hence most folks doing real research (scientific inquiry) at NASA have PhDs. Its not like its THAT hard to get a PhD. All it takes is a little perseverance and tolerance for BS.

Is that all ? Do you have one ? Everyone isn't dealt the same hand in life, Vinny. Grow up.


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Ad hominem and silly. Being of the "little people" I give us plenty of credit and due. I simply stuck the PhD thing at you because you kept puffing yourself up and I figured it would annoy you. It seems to have.

You may resent the fact that I have a better set of experiences than you do to form opinions in this topic. It may seem to you that I am puffing myself up. But every word I have posted , as to my experiences and - especially - the wisdom given to me by those who are far our betters in industry, research, etc. has been true. That you cast sinister shadows on the "anonymous" web nature of claims is of no importance except to betray your petulance and lack of fairness.
You just can't handle someone standing up to your pronouncements about holy competition, marketplaces, etc. with some facts that are clearly to the point and more than a little inconvenient to your fantasy. Geeee, so sorry. There are other people out here with lives and experiences who are not your neo-con-man buddies.


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See...you keep trying to justify that your MA is as valuable as someone else's PhD. It doesn't matter...and perhaps I shouldn't have jabbed you with the PhD stick but hey...

It just isn't much of a stick, Vinny.
I sharpened the point and poked you with it, only because it is exemplary of your elitist , intimidation ploy so vulgar in neo-con-man circles. Do you seriously think that I had to wait for your opinion about degrees to deal with my feelings ?

M.S. as good as a Ph.D. ? No, of course
not always. But sometimes. Yes, it's just a fact. But don't let it bother you too much. As I have made plain: after 20 years in K-12 teaching, I could not even do entry-level work. It's just a choice I had to make. With most non-weapons jobs killed by the neo-con-men , and not having mommy's basement to retreat to, I had to earn a living and pay for my student loans immediately. I love teaching. I love community college level physics the most, by far. I happen to be very good at that. It is no accident. There are very simple reasons for it, but why bother you with more experiences ?And my next favorite teaching level is Middle School. That is where the need is. I attended inner city schools. I have been treated kindly and appreciated there before. I skipped the interview with Hollywood High and went to South Central. I chose math to avoid fundamentalist idiots threatening my bread and butter, were I to teach that looking out into space reveals EVOLUTION even better than digging deep in the ground. Also, running labs with no working equipment is hell on toast. So, I teach math to kiddies who want it. They seem to love me ( and they don't need to dissemble - believe me ) and I deal with the punks ( juvenile and adults ) as well as I can.
As for my M.S. ? It is as a goose fart in a whirlwind, as far as details are concerned.



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Most PhDs would disagree that the only thing that a PhD signifies is that someone stuck to getting a PhD and that the person showed that they could do independent research once?

I haven't polled them.
Many have told me that their colleagues are well below many masters holders. Again, most of the profs at my uni could not examine me at my Quantum Elctrodynamics oral. No one apologized too much for this. They are busy with their own stuff. Only three from physics, one engineer, and one from math could handle it. Even then, most of their questions were naive. They were VERY complimentary of my work when it was over, after three hours, and I got the hand shake. If only you would consult with your local grad schools you will see that none of this is so rare. Of course, if you totally reword what I have posted, I am sure you could gather a good size lynch mob.

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It's not exactly what I would call a very high bar. But it seems that despite your great intellect you read what you want to read rather than what is actually written.

Pfffftt ...



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The point is on the internet folks are anonymous. Any purported credentials are as often false as true. The only thing that matters is what you say, not who you say you are.

I haven't told you who I am. I have posted excellent and perfectly relevant life experiences I have had and others have shared with me. This isn't the only time or venue where these subjects come up, Vinny. I spent evenings discussing it with HP's 30-year VP who knew Jobs and was a member of the Palo Alto School Board. Jeeeezz ! You would think that has something to do with this forum..... you think ?

You are unappreciative. This ought to be beneath you. You ought to be thankful for the time I take from my work to educate you and disabuse you of your mean-spirited , elitist attitude.
There are very few people out here with the set of experiences I have had as it relates to SJ's attack. Few of my friends in the various fields involved are able to cross the lines that separate them as I have. Don't imagine that many people from NASA spend 20 years teaching in South Central; or that you know many people who have chatted with major tech figures who also served in a school board. But, like a petulant mini-republican, you smear it all with the label "puffery". Come on, try to walk on your hind legs ... it's not that difficult.

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On the rare occasion you had points to counter, I have either done so or agreed with your point. Terrible isn't it?

Well, the agreeing thing was creepy. But as for answering my points ? BULL.
You pronounced them wrong without explaining, you insinuated that I made them up , and you ignored them.



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Sorry, my own experienced indicates otherwise. Given that you don't know who I am or my background it would be as impossible for you to refute my experiences as it is for me to refute yours.

Sure, but you could verify some of mine with some reading. You could ask someone in science research about it. But, in the end, people will either see through your FOX CHANNEL techniques or not. You like to claim many things about how others will see me here. Well, that works both ways doesn't it ?

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Meaning...our personal experiences don't really matter when debating any issue on the net.



Wow !!!! Another one !
I'll just let it shine there, in all its purity. You are such a tool !




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Right. Because your friend isn't currently successful as you claim with work on the Discovery channel and papers.

Of course he is. Unless you avoid everything about NASA space probes, you have already seen some of his work featured. You have also seen some of mine and my ex-colleagues.
In fact, if you know anyone who had a very low dosage mammogram done, they have benefited from my signal detection algorithms: and he has kept at it for an additional 14 years. He has won numerous awards and published gobs of papers. Don't be petty, Vinny. Other people exist and have a life. Only I am kind enough to bother with you at this hour

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The theft of any particular item of work is annoying, unjust and unethical but the only way it's debilitating is if you let it embitter you (or you decide to fight a battle you can't win and manage to destroy yourself in the process).

Do you have music to go with that ?

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Nothing too controversial about that.

Odds are, while there was no official impact word has gotten around. It always does. What? In your vast experience far superior to mine that you've found that grad students don't talk to each other? Odd..

.

What can they do ? This is about AFTER grad school. Word has been around many laps. And his is not nearly the worst case. If I had gone to work in his lab, he would have warned me, because he is a great friend. No one warned him about the unwritten rules. He got burned.

Feed your head, Vinny. Your "competitive market" bull crap is a serious distortion of reality. Come out of the cave. Look at the world. Don't attack me.



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EXACTLY. I could be an 18 year old loser without a clue. Only the strength (or lack thereof) of my argument has any merit. Not who I might or might not be.

You confuse who I am ( another thing you don't know ) with what I have lived and gathered from others who have lived longer and at far greater heights than we.

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But you should hope I am not an 18 year old loser without a clue...in as much as one of us looks better than the other at the moment.

Hope springs eternal.



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Given that you are a member then perhaps rather than my possibly biased synopis you could provide your own? Seriously. After all, I agreed on the tenure issue to a point.

Nahh... do your own research. Take it.



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I just like charter schools from the good they seem to do from a parent perspective.

---

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Besides, two wrongs hardly makes a right. The conservative money and influence is a corruptive influence on the political process. That doesn't mean that union activities are any more justified.

... the lesser of two evils .....

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The funny thing about being a moderate is that you get called neo-cons by liberals and um...liberals by neo-cons. Both sides are so polarized that everyone not an extremist on their side is an enemy.

The funny thing about nazis is that they shove the center over, then call decent people extremists because they don't approve of cannibalism.

Why do you hate America, Vinny ?
What ?! Another apology ? Well, OK.

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If your position is that there are no competent administrators then your conclusion would be correct. None could appear.


OOoooHhhhh Nooooo ! The evil neo-con-man has caricatured my statement and cleverly inserted an universal ---- I am sooo defeated !

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Given that your premise is incorrect, it would seem that if there were market forces that would reward competent administration of schools some competent folks might apply for the job. Perhaps even you.

"Market forces" ---- please ! Have you eaten the ENTIRE neo-con-man talking points booklet ? Common V, stop with the horse crap. Most adults know about your "market forces" and "free market" ad nauseum.



See...here's a reasonable argument.
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Yes, you are correct. Tenure has produced these things and they are valuable. On the other hand tenure also give you the hidebound old and untouchable professors that you decry and in my opinion broken public school system.

I am not as deluded as you are. I don't know how to fix it. I don't need to know that in order to rule out the fascist "solution". You just DON'T throw a nation's teachers to the idiots.
If a mother tries to feed RAID to her baby who just swallowed a bee, YOU STOP HER. I don't know how to extract the bee. Maybe it will just turn to crap: like the neo-con-men's promisses.

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So, how can we protect teachers from fundamentalist stupidity without the resulting ills?

Sometimes you just speak truth to power and hope your society will listen. I knew, from the election of reagan and the rise of the Immoral Majority, with the kind of corporate backing and scientific approach to the promotion of mindless biggotry they wielded, that we would come to where we are today. I saw a generation of very beautiful and civic minded people betray all they had worked for; allow their children to become decerebrates;
gentrify their parents into the street; feign support for sequentially larger wars of fascist agression ( begining with our daring conquest of Granada - the nutmeg capital of the world : I still recall the muscle-bound steroid wimps hollering " Yeah ! This makes up for Viet Nam !!!! America is back!!! ). I saw our "moral" x-ians reduce our morality to where torture is no longer a topic of scandal so much as a continuing TV series theme. Do you think I can pretend to fix this crap ?
I just act by my priciples. I know that the romantic forces of world reform are not as powerful as the force that is presently devouring the neo-con-men.
It is simply boredom. We are not wise or moral, Vinny. We are just bored with the now repeating and predictable moves of the neo-con-men and their fascist base. You will fall. The times they are a-changing ... again. But they will change back. This growing oscillation with a right-wing bias was anticipated by our nation's founders. They designed not only a stable juxtaposition of vicious static forces, but also a dynamic stabilizer : a set of staggered election cycles and term lengths to prevent a run-away harmonic catastrophy. Leave it to idiots to give a chimp both Houses , the WH, SCOTUS, and a paid-for in-bed-with "News Media".

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The points I disagree with is that teaching is any more irreversible as a career as any other that requires commitment to some kind of specialization and that normal employment laws cannot protect against sexual abuse/misconduct (which they have).

You simply FORGET your details. You get older and tired. You become unemployable in a young market. Like Wheeler ( Big Deal Physicist ) said : "At my age , one produces mostly a great deal of gas."

Even old guys at NASA would be unemployable if fired. I know of one who has accidentally vented enough expensive research materials in a few minutes to pay for my salary for a year. You can not trash people who are not to blame for the way kids are allowed to behave. You can not blame the teachers for the delinquencies of the whole society. And you don't solve problems by simply threatening people and waiting for "market forces" to do magic.

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But if it really is a requirement, you can keep your tenure system as long as you allow alternative education systems to be tried. Things like vouchers and charter schools. Fair?

They are tried and always have been. But they are deceptions. I see it every day at work. They DO NOT deal with the problem kids. They expell them. Anybody can do that !!!! You evade this issue by slight of hand and nebulous "more appropriate" something or other. You use empty verbiage about fictitious forces and such. Real people get past that crap during the first week in a pathologically hierarchic institution.
They get around fictitious "fair market places", they piss on the laws that supposedly keep the market fair. They cover their asses and blame innocents. They dissimulate when exposed. Do you think that after a 4 1/2 year long law suit against a district with deep pockets and fifteen liars who are almost all millionaires -- while living in my car, across the continent from my loved ones, doing a bang up job at two top-notch colleges as well as world-class reasearch in a NASA research center .... do you seriously think I am going to entertain any horseshit about the "competitive market place" and its "forces" ?

But you will just say that I am making it all up or it is an exceptional glitch.

Do you know how many excellent engineers ( including Ph.D.'s ) were parked next to my car, homeless like me ? And you think, because someone else has a widowed mom's basement to retreat to, or a connection to get a job with, that this is a great darwinian system ? Do you know how many jobs are landed via connections as they totally by-pass the laws dealing with fair interviewing and hiring ? It's MOST of them, Vinny. There is no "fair, competitive market place" here. Throw your phrase book away.



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Not everyone belongs on a "side".

You don't need a membership card.
Just lip service to fascism is enough for now. Later, in a competitive way, you will be allowed to submit your particulars for review. You may want to skim though some of the "insane conspiracy web sites" before they gas you.



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You didn't say 1-1, I said 1-1. Its not manipulative to offer my opinion on what is doing mainstreaming correctly. 3-1 didn't seem to work completely. 1-1 may not either.



Well, if class sizes dropped 25%-30% I would hope you also have 25%-30% fewer punks.

If every SE had an aide that could remove/handle them when they were disruptive that would minimize the impact to you and your primary desire to teach. Hence 1-1.

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5 SE's in one class is too many anyway, even if you had 6 adults.

I will deal with about 23 in a 26 student class, in a few hours. Tell me I am a bad teacher if they don't get a "C" equivalent in the CST .



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Better than screwing all of them.

Education is the one of the few things that can break the poverty cycle. There are families that desire to break the cycle and there are ones that don't care.

Poverty is the one thing that can break the education cycle.
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Helping families that want to break the cycle is more important to me than continuing a system that tries to provide equally bad opportunities all
around.

Teaching you to piss in the right direction is important to all of us.

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Sounds rather harsh but frankly avoiding 1 crying mother and child that didn't make it into a charter school via lottery is worth screwing 10 punks AND you. That's one more potential leader getting a fair chance. Enough of them and what do you know...even the Republican party will start looking a little more tan and they wont be tokens...

So, that's your face !

Frankly, if my dog had that face, I would shave his ass and teach him to walk backwards.

Maybe you will grow out of your nazi tendencies, as you age and experience real life. Nobody needs your SS "philosophy" and you are not among any elite in any market place. Just rooting for the bastards won't make you one, Vinny. Even with spats and a huge cigar, you don't rate. So, come back to the human race. Talk to your mom.


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So these are reasons that class sizes are still so large despite spending more money than ever?

Don't lie about spending. It isn't teachers who eat it. Look to your politico bigwigs down town -- they strut into schools with cologne more expensive than my car. Jesus, you are ignorant !


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At least we can now understand one reason you seem so angry all the time.

Well, you couldn't break a five. I chose to do without : market forces.

But we shouldn't air our laundry here.



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And the high price consultants are helping you how? At least you'd get 6 seconds of use...or maybe you could take all that money spent on admins and consultants and hire...OMG...more teachers?

OK.

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Or perhaps the public school system will be forced to improve so they get something other than punks?

Oh, that must be it. We didn't fill out the kid order form correctly. We must have ordered extra punks. I'll notify the District.

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I would hope that the vouchers would provide sufficient funds to cover the entiere tuition. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that any school accepting vouchers could not charge any additional tuition to level the playing field.

Sure. That's it.


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The objective is to provide better education at a lower cost. Not make some private school owner richer.

Don't forget peace and good will and rice for all the people. God, the swimsuit competition is going to kill me.



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And 30 kids is around 10 too many. Can you handle 2 punks?

I thought you enrolled them in Maryland. I am kinda all filled up for this year. Maybe NY ?



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Evidently. All her friends too. Yes, we did.

Good.



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And you know I do none of these how? Would you be surprised that spouses of teachers get volunteered to help out? And some folks actually keep doing it?

One shoe ....

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But no, I don't do as much as I used to (since I'm not married to her anymore AND I live far away from her old school where I knew folks) which was refurbing old donated computers for use in their school.

... and two.


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If you do get banned it will be because you continue to be abusive. Not because of any particular view you support.

You are worse ---- you are polite.



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Yeah right. Or perhaps some minorities are kinda tired of the whole spiel? Nah. Everyone that disagrees is a neo-con...or worse...a sellout. Care to call me a vendido? You seem to like namecalling.

Oh nooo, the incompetent-ought-to-be-fired-because-he-can't-teach-iron-clad-punks-screaming-teacher-in-the-show-guy had the nerve to call a neo-con-man by his proper name.


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Oddly, given that you're part of the system, that label might more accurately be applied to you no? After all, to your kids you are the representative of Da Man.

No, I don't lie to them. I don't give them elitist crap to eat.

We have an understanding.



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You know, you can't really piss me off by calling me something I'm not.

I know.



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Well, I suppose some Cubans are black but it never occured to me since you made it pretty clear a few posts ago that you were hispanic, specifically Cuban.

What do you care about my color ?
Did you need me to be Black so you could throw the neo-con-man "victim" line at me ? Maybe you have another little neo-con-man comeback you can use.

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What makes you think I'm not a black hispanic irish navajo chinese arab persian mix? But no, I'm not. As far as I know anyway. Mom would have some serious questions to answer if so.

Who gives a crap. You are a heartless, unjust, unmanly neo-con-man who gets on the web to spread biggot venom that will grease the skids on the ruin of countless decent and hard-working teachers. You are ignorant, delusional, and really resentful of your job situation as you work against yourself to make a colder, more unjust world for us to die in. You think your genotype ....... ?

If I thought you had a genetic problem, I would refer you to a doctor.

What you have is polite viciousness.
And you will be held responsible.
Now, go to your room and think about what you have done.
---gooddog

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---gooddog

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post #286 of 294
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But I don't want to teach at a community college. I want my tenure-track job with funding for research and travel where I get to teach pretty much whatever I want.

For all of that, you are required to have a doctorate at a university - yes.
But you may have to teach what the senior faculty hand you -- the dregs, and summers or evenings. Don't you think? At least until you move up in seniority, publications, etc.
I thought you were already tenured at one. Don't worry, you will not be forced to teach at a community college. That would be illegal. Man, could you sue them !

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But you do realize that it's all an artificially imposed requirement, right?

Yes, at the community college level it certainly is. All the physics topics covered, even at a good one , are amply covered and more than that, in a solid B.Sc degree. Of course, teaching upper division physics at university and graduate school is another story. I think I could handle up to the B.A. level with my M.S., if given lots of time to prep. My prof had me sub for him in graduate level QM classes about five times when he had to come out to California re. his research here. I had a dept. Ph.D. sit in for legal reasons. But he said I did fine. Yet, I could not handle a full graduate load -- don't know enough and especially not with publication requirements. Did I say otherwise ?

Now, I don't remember CC level English courses being terribly challenging. Certainly my friends working on their B.A. in English were well above CC level English. But you know more about that. What do you think ? Does a CC instructor in English need a Ph.D. other than by the fact that the district requires it ?
---gooddog

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---gooddog

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post #287 of 294
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Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

For all of that, you are required to have a doctorate at a university - yes.

Whew! Good thing I got a PhD and got ajob at a university!

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But you may have to teach what the senior faculty hand you

No. Not at all. In fact, because junior faculty need to be developed, in my department it's the senior folks who get shafted if there's a conflict.

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-- the dregs, and summers or evenings.

Not at all. I tell our chair when and what I want to teach. Period.

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Don't you think?

No.

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At least until you move up in seniority, publications, etc.

No. Not really. I've got plenty of publications in top journals in my field.

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I thought you were already tenured at one.

Not for a few more years.


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Yes, at the community college level it certainly is.

No. At EVERY level it is.

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Now, I don't remember CC level English courses being terribly challenging. Certainly my friends working on their B.A. in English were well above CC level English. But you know more about that. What do you think ? Does a CC instructor in English need a Ph.D. other than by the fact that the district requires it ?

Not really. They don't even need a BA. Or a HS diploma, for that matter. Plato didn't have a PhD. Neither did Aristotle.

But requiring those degrees does make it much, much easier to know what you're getting when you hire someone.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #288 of 294
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Whew! Good thing I got a PhD and got ajob at a university!

But now you know too much to teach at a community college. Remember what happened to Einstein.

What if you change your mind ?



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No. Not at all. In fact, because junior faculty need to be developed, in my department it's the senior folks who get shafted if there's a conflict.

That is a wonderful place ! Are the senior folk happy with that or is it forced on them ? I hope you aren't pulling my leg.



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Not at all. I tell our chair when and what I want to teach. Period.



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No. Not really. I've got plenty of publications in top journals in my field.

Is there a publish-or-perish rule there ?

Did you publish any of them before you got your doctorate?

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Not for a few more years.

So how do you feel about the need for your coming tenure? I assume your field is in letters not science.

I know that protecting controversial profs is seen as a reason for tenure. But a chemistry or physics prof can hardly find much, within his field, to be controversial about. They would have to venture into some politics that affects the society at large more directly than would a mere row over a technical issue.The closest that comes to mind is Jones and the 911 controversy. Do you feel there is a need for tenure in the physical sciences at your university? Why ?


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No. At EVERY level it is.

Well, I had a uni prof in "advanced expository writing" who had no degree at all. He gave beautiful advice and was quite good IMHO. His only published book was a horribly trite paperback about Chinese bio-terrorism. He told us, up front, that it was not exemplary of his advice but, rather, a way to make some cash.

There was too, in my dept., one "Instructor" with only a masters . He only smiled when I asked him how he managed that. He was hired way back when requirements were lower per the job application. I'm sure that a university or college can hire whom they please, under some title, if there is not too much faculty protest. And that is good. But I know of precious few, in physical sciences, who are home-spun experts. Humason comes to mind in astronomy.


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Not really. They don't even need a BA. Or a HS diploma, for that matter. Plato didn't have a PhD. Neither did Aristotle.

But requiring those degrees does make it much, much easier to know what you're getting when you hire someone.

I can be sure that a B.Sc. is enough for CC teaching in physics by the curriculum. Of course, a self-learner with access to a library can get there too. But I don't know of any acredited CC that doesn't list a degree requirement in their application for a tenure-track position in physical sciences. What I can not be sure of is how they will treat their students and new hires. One of my physics students at the college told me of a chem prof who said to her, "Maybe you will never understand it. Maybe you are too stupid." It had been two years and her eyes still welled up and her voice broke as she spoke. He had a Ph.D. and tenure. I worked homework problems with my students until after midnight on whichever day they voted for. Some, I tutored, by phone, at other times. I scheduled their tests to not conflict with their other tests; usually with a weekend of separation. I never curved nor diluted grades. They had good curves skewed heavily to the A's and B's. My tests spanned all the material required and more. Returning empty-nest mothers were the best students. One was definitely not a science type. She told the governing board that, with me, she had been able to do the word problems, in the back of each chapter, for the first time. I am very proud of that. I was really taken by surprise when they all got up in arms upon hearing that I had been denied tenure. The chancellor was mobbed in his office and had to move to an auditorium to talk with them. It seemed that everyone except the angered dept. was outraged. But, unfortunately, the dept. had the last say, and my fate had been sealed, per testimony, even before I arrived in California. It happened that the dean was intensely disliked by the entire PS division. His tenure came up at the same time as mine. They told him if I got mine, he would not get his. I would never have accepted the position, if I had known that they went over the dept. wishes. I was used to give the impression that they had tried to hire a Latino. Turned out their crony was a Latino who concealed his heritage even from them. His father had changed his name as a child to protect him from discrimination. There was some humor in the whole fiasco. He was hired later anyway. I guess he still teaches that thoughts travel faster than light. Mine are more ... pedestrian.

The trend I last saw for CC hiring is to have one dept. head with a Ph.D. and full benefits while stuffing all other positions with part-timers who get very little by way of benefits. I wish that college had been as concerned for their newbies as your university is.
---gooddog

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post #289 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

But now you know too much to teach at a community college. Remember what happened to Einstein.

What if you change your mind ?

Huh? I didn't realize there was a cap on knowledge in this whole thing.

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That is a wonderful place ! Are the senior folk happy with that or is it forced on them ? I hope you aren't pulling my leg.

There are some wonderful things about this place. But that's really a practical issue. If you hire junior faculty and treat them like shit, they'll leave.

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Is there a publish-or-perish rule there ?

Yes.

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Did you publish any of them before you got your doctorate?

One article was a chapter from my dissertation, but didn't actually appear in print until after I had the degree.

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So how do you feel about the need for your coming tenure? I assume your field is in letters not science.

Because of where I work and what I work on, tenure is actually very important to me. The first class I offered in my area of expertise required a phone call to the Dean to warn her just in case there were complaints about the subject matter.

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I know that protecting controversial profs is seen as a reason for tenure. But a chemistry or physics prof can hardly find much, within his field, to be controversial about. They would have to venture into some politics that affects the society at large more directly than would a mere row over a technical issue.The closest that comes to mind is Jones and the 911 controversy. Do you feel there is a need for tenure in the physical sciences at your university? Why ?

BYU fired a professor recently for his comments on the WTC collapse. BYU fired a professor recently for his comments about gay marriage. And just because you can't imagine anything controversial now in your field doesn't mean that there won't be another dark matter or there won't be another paradigm shift somewhere down the road. Tenure allows people to take risks. It allows people to take chances and to branch out into areas of thought and research they might not otherwise have.

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Well, I had a uni prof in "advanced expository writing" who had no degree at all. He gave beautiful advice and was quite good IMHO. His only published book was a horribly trite paperback about Chinese bio-terrorism. He told us, up front, that it was not exemplary of his advice but, rather, a way to make some cash.

Um. OK.

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There was too, in my dept., one "Instructor" with only a masters . He only smiled when I asked him how he managed that. He was hired way back when requirements were lower per the job application. I'm sure that a university or college can hire whom they please, under some title, if there is not too much faculty protest. And that is good. But I know of precious few, in physical sciences, who are home-spun experts. Humason comes to mind in astronomy.

OK.

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I can be sure that a B.Sc. is enough for CC teaching in physics by the curriculum. Of course, a self-learner with access to a library can get there too.

Mutually exclusive statements.

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But I don't know of any acredited CC that doesn't list a degree requirement in their application for a tenure-track position in physical sciences.

You just said the magic word: accreditation. Why is the PhD important? accreditation. Why are degrees important and required? Accreditation.

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What I can not be sure of is how they will treat their students and new hires.

That would be a "known unknown" in any situation.

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One of my physics students at the college told me of a chem prof who said to her, "Maybe you will never understand it. Maybe you are too stupid." It had been two years and her eyes still welled up and her voice broke as she spoke. He had a Ph.D. and tenure.

PhD + tenure does not make people into assholes. Nor, frankly, does it protect them.

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I was really taken by surprise when they all got up in arms upon hearing that I had been denied tenure. The chancellor was mobbed in his office and had to move to an auditorium to talk with them. It seemed that everyone except the angered dept. was outraged. But, unfortunately, the dept. had the last say, and my fate had been sealed, per testimony, even before I arrived in California. It happened that the dean was intensely disliked by the entire PS division. His tenure came up at the same time as mine. They told him if I got mine, he would not get his. I would never have accepted the position, if I had known that they went over the dept. wishes. I was used to give the impression that they had tried to hire a Latino.

Um, ok. I'm honestly not sure what your point is in all of this.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #290 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

"Competition" is a very misleading word. Many readers will infer the modifier "fair" when it isn't even implied and is mostly precluded. "Competition" is a word useful, mostly, to the guy who has the inside track via cronyism, nepotism, racism, sexism, etc. Pseudo-competitive neo-con-men throw the word around to intimidate decent people. They seldom mention that they got into a good school because Daddy is an alumnus.

Since you don't seem to read what I write there seems to be not much point in continuing much longer.

I have no clue how you can say that with vouchers that there would be no competition among schools to attract students.

I will say one thing since you value personal experiences so much...my cousin is a first generation American, with English as a second language with poor parents who gladly worked long hours so she could go to Princeton. They certainly were not alumni. And she managed to do so without suing anyone for discrimination or whining how the system was so stacked against her.

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Much of the reason for the requirement of a doctorate is in the nature of hierarchical institutions. It establishes a population of underlings to do much of the grunt work. In science, the treasures are often found by them, deep in the pile of grunt work, and the credit goes to the big guys.

Having been said grunt, I have no problems that Smoot and Mather got the glory. It was their brainchild and their long term efforts that got them the Nobel.

The whole deal with your "experience" and "credentials" is simply a pissing contest given you have no idea whom you might be debating against on the net.

See I can say that I've worked at NASA and been involved with nobel winning work but that's meaningless as there's no proof. But I am well aware of how scientific research is conducted at NASA and other research institutions.

I would guess my experience is also somewhat more recent than yours.

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Is that all ? Do you have one ? Everyone isn't dealt the same hand in life, Vinny. Grow up.

Nope, I don't have a PhD. Didn't need one but it seems to be career limiting at the moment. Guess I'll have to go get one after all.

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You may resent the fact that I have a better set of experiences than you do to form opinions in this topic.

Doubtful. I just prefer not to get into a credentials pissing contest. Which I just did but whatever since its still pointless.

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It may seem to you that I am puffing myself up. But every word I have posted , as to my experiences and - especially - the wisdom given to me by those who are far our betters in industry, research, etc. has been true.

Nonsense. You posted your credentials in an attempt to make your bitter accusations sound credible. They are not. While bad things do happen they do NOT happen as widely as you say. Everyone can point to one or two stories they heard of or even been part of but that's not indicative of every academic and research environment..

Some unis and labs may be dysfunctional but not all or even many.

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Nahh... do your own research. Take it.

So it seems that you cannot put forth a credible reason for the UTLA to fight against charter schools...probably because there isn't a very good one.

There isn't a credible reason from an education viewpoint to resist charter schools. All sorts of political and power reasons to do so for a teacher's union.

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Do you know how many excellent engineers ( including Ph.D.'s ) were parked next to my car, homeless like me ? And you think, because someone else has a widowed mom's basement to retreat to, or a connection to get a job with, that this is a great darwinian system ? Do you know how many jobs are landed via connections as they totally by-pass the laws dealing with fair interviewing and hiring ? It's MOST of them, Vinny. There is no "fair, competitive market place" here. Throw your phrase book away.

No, the playing field isn't entierly level. Yes, there is prejudice and bigotry. Same as every other country in the world. The difference is here you CAN rise above it and go in one generation from immigrant to Princeton.

So no, its not MOST of them and you wouldn't know anyway having been out of the real workforce (one without tenure) for 20 years. Sorry you're bitter and all...but the fact that you failed at your aspirations is not the fault of the rest of the world.

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Don't lie about spending. It isn't teachers who eat it. Look to your politico bigwigs down town -- they strut into schools with cologne more expensive than my car. Jesus, you are ignorant !

See? You really aren't reading. I was agreeing that cutting out "yams" but somehow you construe it as an attack on teachers. Because you want to be outraged to avoid the issue.

Issue: Teacher's unions are colluding with the folks you purport to hate to keep the status quo. They are as big a part of the problem as the political bigwigs because they are every bit as part of the establishment as the people you hate.

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What do you care about my color ?
Did you need me to be Black so you could throw the neo-con-man "victim" line at me ? Maybe you have another little neo-con-man comeback you can use.

You object to the characterization that you play the victim because you are non-black which sounds pretty bigotted. It has never struck me as a malady that only afflicted african americans but instead pretty much every race.

And no, I don't care what your color is, you're the one who brought it up in the first place by claiming I thought you were black. No I didn't. Just that you were playing to woe is me victim card. Guess your true colors are showing eh?

Vinea
post #291 of 294
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Since you don't seem to read what I write there seems to be not much point in continuing much longer.

I'm just not used to the higher quality of writing that you put out. The clarity blinded me.

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I have no clue how you can say that with vouchers that there would be no competition among schools to attract students.

Even if the vouchers covered the bill, and the other problems I mentioned, vouchers will do nothing to address the cause, overwhelmingly predominant, of low scores that I have seen, daily, for almost 20 years: student misbehavior; disdain for education to the extreme of making anything but straight F's a mark of ridicule; not merely anti-academic sentiment but anti-intellectual zeal; social promotion due to scarcity of schools; the resulting disincentive to perform by students who know they will be promoted anyway and those who resent having to work for promotion that others get gratis.

All of these are directly, palpably caused by lack of adequate income; both in the home and in the community. I hope I don't have to connect the dots to support this.

The incidence and effect of teacher incompetence are insignificant. I know you don't want to believe this. But it simply does not require my enormous and awe-inspiring powers of mentation ( or my astonishing M.S. that is sooooo much better than any Ph.D. or European Sc.D. available on the planet ) to teach K-12. And pedagogic skills are not significantly lacking either.

It's as if a bus were parked on the side of the road and kids were ripping it up and setting fire to the tires. You want to suspend the driver's license as he tries desperately to summon emergency services that don't show up.

Also, like many "aide" programs, vouchers will increase the woes in the most affected schools:
teachers like me will flee to schools that are not being bled. This is already happening under threats of sanctions provided by your chimp's No Child's Behind Is Left program. Given more affluent students, the formerly "bad teachers" find that they are suddenly "wonderful teachers". They tell us of far smaller classes, new desks and equipment, peaceful campuses, loving atmosphere, higher pay; great student scores; and, above all, excellent parental involvement. Those teachers who own houses near there and don't need rent control simply leave us. My school is in its fifth year of threats. All the best teachers who don't want to be attacked have gone right back uptown. I could name about seven just this year. Teachers from homes with two incomes are also more able to live near these better schools. Our school is becoming overwhelmingly staffed by emergency credential and first year teachers. Their naiveté and lack of experience as well their vulnerable probationary status and lower pay makes them avoid healthy criticism of policy. They then have to resort to humoring idiotic mandates as their illusions of showing the tenured deadbeats how it's done steadily evaporate until, suddenly, one semester, they announce that they are quitting the profession or moving uptown. Most people don't speak up and confront authority. They just go along, get along, then split. I think it is the best way for one's sanity myself. I just tend to confront instead. Maybe I will be targeted soon. There are such cases; several in schools where I taught previously. Counselors who follow through on discipline referals etc. usually last about 3 semesters at most. They are overwhelmed with the volume of referals and disgusted with the attitude of the punk's parents as well as the restrictions on disciplinary action from the courts and from dangerous parents. Some come from fourth generations of gang activity.
It is not that we are attacked often - we are not. It is that the fear of having a "bad day" makes us ineffectually cautious. These things I am relating are , by far the overwhelmingly predominant causes of poor academic scores. New schools will not be built by vouchers: vouchers will cannibalize funds.

Teachers will not be improved by vouchers because your tacit assumption that they are sitting on their asses until you come along with your threats is simply incorrect and vicious. Far above any politician, armchair pundit, district suit, WH chimp, private sector ripoff outfit, administrator, parent, or shock jock; teachers are the ones working themselves sick to help. We have had 2 heart attack, three cancer, two stroke, and one injury - related retirements, deaths, and extended leaves in one year, at my school. I had to drive myself to the ER, before lunch, ( leave the car at school overnight and lose your transportation then your job as well as continuing to pay six years of car loan ) when I started having scary symptoms of stroke or heart attack. I wasn't having a bad day at all. But the docs said this is typical, contrary to popular myth. Fortunately, it was just an unexplained case of the vapours that I had never experienced before. I had signed up for supplemental insurance for this, less than 24 hours before. The carrier is raking it in after the other casualties became known. It costs me about $100 per month out of my pocket.

But some stupidities we will just have to ride out - just like the republican catastrophe.

So, you want vouchers ? Go ahead then, MAKE MY DAY.

But as with Iraq : if you break it, you bought it.

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I will say one thing since you value personal experiences so much...my cousin is a first generation American, with English as a second language with poor parents who gladly worked long hours so she could go to Princeton. They certainly were not alumni. And she managed to do so without suing anyone for discrimination or whining how the system was so stacked against her.

I was never discriminated against at my Alma Mater either. My parents worked very hard too. But mostly, I tutored, taught as a TA, and took loans. What is your pissy little neo-con-man point ?

Why would she sue anyone ? Was she hurt by anyone ? What were the actionable causes ?
I applied at many colleges where some crony was hired. Since they didn't really hurt me any more than the 150 or so other applicants who had also been rejected, I had no standing to sue nor did I even think of suing. One such college was the one I attended. I had the pleasure of teaching with my old prof after all those years. He was delighted with me. He wanted me hired very much and wrote me a glowing reference. As I had been moonlighting there for over a year, the dean continually told me and my students that I was better than his tenured faculty. But the crony fix was in already. He made no bones about it. I asked him point blank and he confided in me. I thanked him for his honesty and that was all. He didn't lure me , as the sued school did, with fraudulent promises, to relocate across the continent and arrive at San Francisco Airport without a single key in my keychain, to start teaching within three days, in what was described by the district's recruiter, as a "hornet's nest" of faculty/admin fighting.

At the college where I moonlighted, the temp holding the position was crushed to not get it.
Everyone was appalled at the guy who was hired. He was a real ass, made loads of errors, and insulted his students. It was not a case of ethnicity. Just crony crap. Another such hire was later scandalized when it was learned that the dean of that division was secretely married to the hire.

And what if your cousin is far superior to me in all ways ? The issue is whether I was as good as the typical tenured newbie at the college. That issue was investigated in more ways, by more professionals, and more extensively than any case you will ever know about. With a very real possibility of a runaway jury award in the millions , the certainty of a very public trial covered by the sister of my most ardent student who wrote education-related investigative articles for the largest newspaper in the city; and with the college's insurance carrier present at all depositions and visibly disgusted with the dept.'s testimony; the District was very eager to find even one flaw in my performance as an instructor. They spent over a million to deny me a $25k/year position: your money Vinny The insurance carrier put a six figure cap on their malpractice coverage and warned them any balance would have to come from elsewhere. The defense attorney fried these assholes in his office and made them offer to settle. The last judge to deal with the case did the same. He told all that I would most certainly win the case hands down. His father had been ruined in almost the same way at a college: totalled their marriage.

Discrimination was not how it started , neo-con-man. It was cronyistic hiring by the dept.
They were overridden because, without my request nor knowledge, the affirmative action officer asked them why they had trashed my application when I was well qualified and ( just by coincidence --- you ass ) the dept. was all white males. Having vowed solemnly , for years, that he would try to conform the makeup of the faculty to that of the community, the slimy Chancellor decided to rush me in the front door then let the dept. rush me out the rear door as soon as legally possible. Of course they had to promise me three years minimum before any denial could take place, if they wanted me to risk it. This was not possible, by law. They needed a Latino physicist. So they just lied.

It was only much later, after they threw off the mask and pulled out the axe, that the world and I started fighting back. This is when they got their shorts all in a bunch and started getting very racist. And they unwittingly did so in front of my students and in a public setting with tape recorders running. I know that you want to place me in a position of relating details so you can complain about my writing or not relating details so that your pissy little insinuations will go unchallenged. But there you have it. Trashy little men, who pretend to be decent, screwing decent people for their petty little penile insecurities. Then , when they encounter a little heat, their veneer peels off and out comes the racist, sexist, elitist filth that is well know as biggotry. Reminds me of you Vinny, save that you have no teeth.

Now, just what kind of unmanly, immoral wimp of a neo-con-man turdling could possibly describe any of that as whining on my part ?

Oh yes, the off-the-rack unemployed, bitter loser kind.

Do you really need to believe that virtually all faculty, except the repondents, and virtually all of my students of many ethnicities, including lots of Whites, the college's President - himself a respondent - and all govt. agencies - federal and not, along with the judge, the college's own insurer, and even their own attorney wanted me paid ... and all just because Vinny, the neo-con-man-immoral-wimp says I whined. Well, why not? But others are watching you teenee-vinny.



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The whole deal with your "experience" and "credentials" is simply a pissing contest given you have no idea whom you might be debating against on the net.

No, I think you underestimate people. I learned that when I give them the details and a racist punk can only tinkle inuendo, lots of intelligent and decent people will know. Don't forget: that quality in decent people was worth a hefty six figures for me. Don't get spooked Vinny. Just remember that the whole world is watching your performance.

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See I can say that I've worked at NASA and been involved with nobel winning work but that's meaningless as there's no proof.

Yeah, we heard you, teenee-vinny. You are whistling in the dark, son. Fortunately you are becoming extinct. Decent people are bored with the trick.

Were you involved with Mather and Smoot ?

Were you robbed of due credit for lack of a Ph.D. ?

If so, then you ought to fight it. It would help fight crime.

In any case, I think those two gentlemen are too classy to screw a grunt out of their due attributions. Even if the grunt were an obsequious neo-con-man.

BTW, Humason.


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But I am well aware of how scientific research is conducted at NASA and other research institutions.

You must be joking.



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I would guess my experience is also somewhat more recent than yours.

Yes, you think like a bush-era idiot.

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Nope, I don't have a PhD. Didn't need one but it seems to be career limiting at the moment. Guess I'll have to go get one after all.

Good for you ! Get me a beer while you're out, will you ?



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Doubtful. I just prefer not to get into a credentials pissing contest. Which I just did but whatever since its still pointless.

You're falling appart on me, Vinny.



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Nonsense. You posted your credentials in an attempt to make your bitter accusations sound credible. They are not. While bad things do happen they do NOT happen as widely as you say. Everyone can point to one or two stories they heard of or even been part of but that's not indicative of every academic and research environment.

.

I'm sorry teenee . I didn't mean to scare you , kid. Hey, listen, maybe you are right after all.
I could have been hallucinating everything and we have been in Kansas all along. Yeah, that's right. Awww, there, there big fella. It's all going to be OK now. What say I take you to the ball park , hey ? Wanna watch a game with me. I won't be bitter and whinny any more.

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Some unis and labs may be dysfunctional but not all or even many.

Atta' boy !!! That's the spirit !


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So it seems that you cannot put forth a credible reason for the UTLA to fight against charter schools...probably because there isn't a very good one.

I pay our fine Union to do that. Why not challenge you with your own little discovery project? You read up on that topic for homework. Then, if you want extra credit, you can post your little distortions here and someone else can help you to mark your paper.
But be careful not to get slimy, Vinny. It may be difficult to explain yourself after.

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There isn't a credible reason from an education viewpoint to resist charter schools. All sorts of political and power reasons to do so for a teacher's union.

Fine, go with it ... let's see you shine.

You said you need a rest from this thread ... and you are ever so frazzled. Go ahead, crawl back in your nice hole.



Quote:
No, the playing field isn't entierly level. Yes, there is prejudice and bigotry. Same as every other country in the world. The difference is here you CAN rise above it and go in one generation from immigrant to Princeton.

So what happened to you ? Pounding code for minimum wage ? No ? Well ... soon. HP was already caught with a hotel full of immigrant programmers. I am fully confident that you will compete very well for those 9K jobs that incoming "guest" workers will clamor for soon.
If you think they can't wax you for a fraction of the pay ... Oh,! Hey, there I go again. Never mind all that. Safe space .... safe space.... market place .... safe space ..... they won't come here ... why they can just remote ... oops!!! , nothing.


Quote:
So no, its not MOST of them and you wouldn't know anyway having been out of the real workforce (one without tenure) for 20 years. Sorry you're bitter and all...but the fact that you failed at your aspirations is not the fault of the rest of the world.

Well, thank you , dearheart. You are so kind to think of me in the midst of your own ... you know.

Did you happen to remember the beer ?


Quote:
Issue: Teacher's unions are colluding with the folks you purport to hate to keep the status quo. They are as big a part of the problem as the political bigwigs because they are every bit as part of the establishment as the people you hate.

But, I bought them just for you
I thought you would like to play with them sometime. Don't you want them?

Awwww, I see ... you were bringing me your rats That is so sweet of you ! Let's just let them play and see what happens.


Quote:
You object to the characterization that you play the victim because you are non-black which sounds pretty bigotted. It has never struck me as a malady that only afflicted african americans but instead pretty much every race.

And no, I don't care what your color is, you're the one who brought it up in the first place by claiming I thought you were black. No I didn't. Just that you were playing to woe is me victim card. Guess your true colors are showing eh?


Oh, it's OK, don't pull a muscle. Imus already did this.
---gooddog

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---gooddog

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post #292 of 294
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Huh? I didn't realize there was a cap on knowledge in this whole thing.


Yes, there is.

My kids told me Einstein was actually assassinated by the CIA because he knew too much.


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Because of where I work and what I work on, tenure is actually very important to me. The first class I offered in my area of expertise required a phone call to the Dean to warn her just in case there were complaints about the subject matter.

Sounds intriguing but I won't pry.

Quote:
BYU fired a professor recently for his comments on the WTC collapse.

I've read Jones's comments. Instead of firing him, I would have given him a sabbatical to nail down the facts and evidence or else retract. I think his work needs to be inspected more closely not censored. Hmmm ... maybe subpoena power ?



Quote:
BYU fired a professor recently for his comments about gay marriage.

Public school teachers can get in trouble on either side of many such issues depending on the political environment. We answer questions, everyday, about controversial subjecst and it is difficult to evade the most sincere answers, especially when evolution comes up and a kid says, "But didn't Adam and Eve start it all ? ... etc." Even if you cite Aquinas' compromise and such, you can get a lot of grief.

We recently adopted an
anti-harassement policy to keep kids from using "gay" as an insult and picking on gays. I hope it is accepted and used.


Quote:
And just because you can't imagine anything controversial now in your field doesn't mean that there won't be another dark matter or there won't be another paradigm shift somewhere down the road. Tenure allows people to take risks. It allows people to take chances and to branch out into areas of thought and research they might not otherwise have.

We don't get hammered for exploring new ideas; just keeping the ones you find on the shelf is a problem. That is one reason I teach math in public school instead of science. My school isn't a problem in that regard. Yet, I am a little more frank with my students than it is wise to be.


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That would be a "known unknown" in any situation.

Please, don't make me have to dig up the Roman Ritual again.



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PhD + tenure does not make people into assholes. Nor, frankly, does it protect them.

Precisely.


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Um, ok. I'm honestly not sure what your point is in all of this.

Count your blessings ?

I'm glad your uni is so considerate; hope it spreads.
---gooddog

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---gooddog

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post #293 of 294
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Originally Posted by gooddog View Post

Even if the vouchers covered the bill, and the other problems I mentioned, vouchers will do nothing to address the cause, overwhelmingly predominant, of low scores that I have seen, daily, for almost 20 years: student misbehavior; disdain for education to the extreme of making anything but straight F's a mark of ridicule; not merely anti-academic sentiment but anti-intellectual zeal; social promotion due to scarcity of schools; the resulting disincentive to perform by students who know they will be promoted anyway and those who resent having to work for promotion that others get gratis.

Vouchers are not a panacea/silver bullet to all problems faced by the public school system and only addresses the availability of alternatives to students and parents seeking them.

How to influence any particular sub-culture not to be anti-academic seems beyond the ability of imposable governmental techniques (well, in a democracy anyway). NCLB is an example of a poorly thought out government imposed initiative...one I would have honestly expected from liberal rather than conservative circles.

Vouchers cannot fix systemic sub-cultural influences. It can only help individual families escape these influences. In your paragraph above it only would address the "the resulting disincentive to perform by students who know they will be promoted anyway and those who resent having to work for promotion that others get gratis." segment.

It would also help address the "scarcity of schools" by creating a set of consumers that would now have the financial capability of seeking alternative schools within their neighborhoods through the funds provided by vouchers. You can even tie vouchers geographically if you desire but I think that would be excessive.

The negative effects of this migration would have to be mitigated through other means.

Or not.

Even if not, my belief is that the net effect would be positive as a whole as under-privledged students that do want to learn would now have the opportunity to do so in a non-hostile environment.

Quote:
All of these are directly, palpably caused by lack of adequate income; both in the home and in the community. I hope I don't have to connect the dots to support this.

I would disagree that it is a direct cause and effect in as much as certain poorer demographics that favors education do well. I don't have any numbers to support this assertion...but when I have free time I'll go hunt for some.

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The incidence and effect of teacher incompetence are insignificant. I know you don't want to believe this.

I agree that teacher incompetence is a realtively minor factor. However, I would still stipulate that teacher unions remain a significant factor in how our school systems are underperforming.

Quote:
Also, like many "aide" programs, vouchers will increase the woes in the most affected schools:
teachers like me will flee to schools that are not being bled. This is already happening under threats of sanctions provided by your chimp's No Child's Behind Is Left program.

Yes.

The place that you and I diverge is that I believe that public schools systems, faced with declining enrollment and even more horrific results would change for the better simply because they would face replacement from private schools and the hemmoraging of their better staff.

Or they would become the storehouse of "punks" abandoned by the system staffed by incompentents (or idealists) that could not find employ elsewhere. Given that you already paint existing administrators as incompetent and schools dominated by punks, how much worse would urban schools get when you move the students that would want to learn to more encouraging environments? You can't have it both ways...if the system sucks so badly now, then rescuing the students at the expense of punks doesn't seem like a bad proposition.

I have never been a supporter of NCLB. I'm not opposed to testing but underfunded mandates tied to testing has always struck me as a dumb idea.

Quote:
Given more affluent students, the formerly "bad teachers" find that they are suddenly "wonderful teachers". They tell us of far smaller classes, new desks and equipment, peaceful campuses, loving atmosphere, higher pay; great student scores; and, above all, excellent parental involvement.

Yes.

Quote:
It is not that we are attacked often - we are not. It is that the fear of having a "bad day" makes us ineffectually cautious. These things I am relating are , by far the overwhelmingly predominant causes of poor academic scores. New schools will not be built by vouchers: vouchers will cannibalize funds.

I agree that vouchers will cannibalize funds from public schools. I obviously do not agree that no new schools will appear since the vouchers have to be spent somewhere.

Quote:
Teachers will not be improved by vouchers because your tacit assumption that they are sitting on their asses until you come along with your threats is simply incorrect and vicious.

No, my "tacit assumption" is that currently teachers face two choices: teach in public schools for higher pay and be less effective at teaching for a variety of reasons OR teach in private schools that cater to the well off for less pay but in an environment conducive to teaching.*

Vouchers would create another option where teachers could teach motivated students from lower income families in the neighborhoods they live in by giving those lower income familes the same option as higher income familes (i.e. picking the schools they want to go to).

* the variation is to try to move to teach in better districts as you illustrated earlier.

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But some stupidities we will just have to ride out - just like the republican catastrophe.

So, you want vouchers ? Go ahead then, MAKE MY DAY.

But as with Iraq : if you break it, you bought it.

It seems already broken and we (as a nation) already bought it.

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Now, just what kind of unmanly, immoral wimp of a neo-con-man turdling could possibly describe any of that as whining on my part ?

Look, I really don't care about your past. It is immaterial to the topic except you keep injecting it as an argument. At which point I call it whiny because, well, who cares? There is no one in this thread that can refute anything you say of the specifics and the folks you had a disgreement have no voice or opportunity to defend themselves in this forum.

What happened to you is not the norm.

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I pay our fine Union to do that.

They aren't here are they? If you have something positive to say about teachers unions on the education system in the US that would be on topic for this thread.

Fighting against charter schools seem to be the typical example of the harm they cause.

Vinea
post #294 of 294
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I agree that teacher incompetence is a realtively minor factor. However, I would still stipulate that teacher unions remain a significant factor in how our school systems are underperforming.

So, come work with us, renounce all union protection and return that portion of your pay that you think is excessive.
---gooddog

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---gooddog

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