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Apple, Samsung, Sandisk sued over MP3 patent

post #1 of 42
2/26/07 at 7:14am
Thread Starter 
Apple Inc. is among a handful of digital music player manufacturers that are being sued by a little-known Texas firm for infringement on an MP3-related patent.

The suit, according to InfoWorld, was filed on Feb. 16 in Marshall, Texas -- an eastern Texas city emerging as a favorite amongst plaintiffs in patent infringement lawsuits due to its speedy trials and favorable rulings.

In the complaint, Texas MP3 Technologies alleges that Apple, Samsung, and Sandisk are infringing on U.S. patent 7,065,417, which was awarded in June 2006 to former iPod chip-maker SigmaTel and covers "an MPEG portable sound reproducing system and a method for reproducing sound data compressed using the MPEG method."

It's reported that SigmaTel flipped the patent to a Dallas, Texas-based patent licensing agency shortly after receiving rights because it felt the agency was better served to capitalize on its value potential.

"Because these are such basic patents to digital music, we believe it will be difficult to design around these patents and have a commercially viable player," SigmaTel said in a statement at the time.

InfoWorld notes that it is unclear whether Texas MP3 Technologies is the Dallas-based company that bought the patents from SigmaTel or whether it acquired them from somewhere else.
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post #2 of 42
2/26/07 at 7:29am
And so it begins...

Wow, if Apple didn't have to fight a new lawsuit every three days, just imagine where all that extra money could go.

If I'm reading this correctly, they're suing because of the decoding chip / method? Who knows, but would it be safe to say if SigmaTel was the chip-maker, and they got bought out, that any patent agreements would go with the sale? Also, if SigmaTel is no longer the iPod chip maker, then why in the hell would they be suing in the first place.

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post #3 of 42
2/26/07 at 7:52am
And I just got through reading the older one.

Sebastian
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
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post #4 of 42
2/26/07 at 7:54am
We should start a new website This Week in Apple Lawsuits
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post #5 of 42
2/26/07 at 8:09am
Good god. It looks like someone is out to make a quick and easy buck. ?

If SigmaTel was the former provider of iPod chips, then all is well until the end of Tel,
when everything belongs to someone else and all might go to hell.

I'm rhyming, a sure sign of sleep deprivation.

Would they sue for recent abuse or is this a blanket suit for all damages evaaa?

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #6 of 42
2/26/07 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaPeaJay View Post

We should start a new website This Week in Apple Lawsuits



The upkeep would likely require a full-time staff at the rate we're moving right now.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #7 of 42
2/26/07 at 8:17am
"Intellectual property" is an evil invention of the state, designed to aid in the subjugation of the common man. It is time to repeal copyright and patent law.
What's the frequency, Kenneth?
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What's the frequency, Kenneth?
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post #8 of 42
2/26/07 at 8:24am
Actually, after reading the patent claims this may have a lot of legs. If I read this correctly the patent has a priority date of 1997!!! and the first independent claim describes an MP3 player very well. Read the patent.

7,065,417
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post #9 of 42
2/26/07 at 8:37am
Gah...

MP3 playing ... ON A PORTABLE DEVICE.

I hate these patents, they're worthless. The portable devices in questions are computers, so there should be no distinction between the patents for MP3 (which Apple has licensed, Lucent issue notwithstanding) playing back on a computer or on a portable device.

The major worthless patent areas:

X ... via [a standard] wireless [protocol]
X ... on a portable device
X ... online [using a standard protocol]

i.e., take a standard patent, and find a standard mechanism, and merge the two, and create a new patent. Worthless to society, and society is what allows the mechanism of patents in the first place.
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post #10 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:14am
This pattent was filed in 2002, prior to that there were the iPod (2001) and other music players.

You would think that the fact that there were devices that performed that function prior to the filling would have something to do with this.
Inventors: Moon; Kwang-su (Seoul, KR), Hwang; Jung-ha (Seoul, KR)
Assignee: SigmaTel, Inc. (Austin, TX)

Appl. No.: 10/059,777
Filed: January 29, 2002

Clearly states January 29, 2002, why does it backdates to 1997????
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post #11 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfk View Post

"Intellectual property" is an evil invention of the state, designed to aid in the subjugation of the common man. It is time to repeal copyright and patent law.

Patents and copyrights are designed to help the common man - or at least the small companies. Copyrights keep authors and artists fed. What we need an end to is frivolous, general patents and copyrights, especially gene patents.
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post #12 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

This pattent was filed in 2002, prior to that there were the iPod (2001) and other music players.

You would think that the fact that there were devices that performed that function prior to the filling would have something to do with this.
Inventors: Moon; Kwang-su (Seoul, KR), Hwang; Jung-ha (Seoul, KR)
Assignee: SigmaTel, Inc. (Austin, TX)

Appl. No.: 10/059,777
Filed: January 29, 2002

Clearly states January 29, 2002, why does it backdates to 1997????

Because there were foreign (to the U.S.) filings that seem to establish a priority date of Nov. 24, 1997
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post #13 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:29am
What amazes me even more is that people still encode with the MP3 format
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post #14 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Because there were foreign (to the U.S.) filings that seem to establish a priority date of Nov. 24, 1997

Yea but do foreigh fillings have a weight or bearing in the US?
If they were granted the equivalent of a patent lets say for example in Japan, is that patent and filing recognized in the US?

The 1997 filling sounds like it was not enforced until now, not sure it is valid, the 2002 filling (took 5 years) to be finaly accepted and they are trying to enforce it now with previous US art in place.

Not a lawyer, but this does not smell right.
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post #15 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:41am
patents need to be defended soon after either they been granted or soon after a device or invention is determined by the patent holder to be infringing on their patent. To my knowledge, failing to defend the patent vigorously, makes it difficult or imposible to defend far into the future.


LOL, I could be wrong, failed law school.
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post #16 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:47am
It's all about making a fast buck as far as I'm concerned. These companies are as bad as the tossers who sue the local authorites when their kid falls off a fence they shouldn't be climbing over in the first place.
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post #17 of 42
2/26/07 at 9:55am
Patents are to protect people's intellectual property from theivery.... Their goal in creation was NOT to allow people to hunt down others for coming up with a similar idea... Sadly, a 'fix' frequently breaks other things, take Microsoft for example.... Oh wait... Er... Not a single person could find a vulnerability a month. Joking aside...

Patents are completely out of hand... I highly doubt Apple just 'copied' Texas MP3 Technologies. Come on... Just because you happen to come up with the idea of playing MP3's on a portable doesn't mean you should be able to lock everyone else out... Let's patent using a wireless stream for music in your car when mobile players start using it for streaming music via a wireless stream as a standard application, then we can get filthy rich. These people are examples of parasites in society.
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post #18 of 42
2/26/07 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EruIthildur View Post

Patents are to protect people's intellectual property from theivery.... Their goal in creation was NOT to allow people to hunt down others for coming up with a similar idea... Sadly, a 'fix' frequently breaks other things, take Microsoft for example.... Oh wait... Er... Not a single person could find a vulnerability a month. Joking aside...

Patents are completely out of hand... I highly doubt Apple just 'copied' Texas MP3 Technologies. Come on... Just because you happen to come up with the idea of playing MP3's on a portable doesn't mean you should be able to lock everyone else out... Let's patent using a wireless stream for music in your car when mobile players start using it for streaming music via a wireless stream as a standard application, then we can get filthy rich. These people are examples of parasites in society.

On the other hand, Apple could just as easily have formed 'patent teams' to invent a variety of ingenious ways they could exploit and patent existing, and up and coming technologies for use with Apple devices and Apple's areas of strength. From personal experience, I've seen time and again larger companies (Apple included) who cannot see the forest for the trees on new technologies and their impact on their business. If I were Jobs, I'd make sure individuals and teams of "skunk-works" outside of Apple were up and running. Immediately. It continues to cost Apple a bloody fortune every time they get forced into some kind of licensing agreement or settlement. Tackling the problem at the bottom would be a heck of a lot cheaper.

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post #19 of 42
2/26/07 at 10:47am
BTW: The claims part of a patent is the only part that counts. They got 30 of them.
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post #20 of 42
2/26/07 at 10:55am
I hope that eventually patents take a form more like trademarks. You either use it (or make vlaid attempts to use it) or lose it. Having an idea isn't enough if you can't figure out how to implement/produce it or simply don't want to impose the tme and expense to market it.
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post #21 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:00am
Does Alcatel-Lucent know???

Maybe they will sue SigmaTel!

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post #22 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Does Alcatel-Lucent know???

Maybe they will sue SigmaTel!

One can only hope.

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post #23 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

Yea but do foreigh fillings have a weight or bearing in the US?
If they were granted the equivalent of a patent lets say for example in Japan, is that patent and filing recognized in the US?

The 1997 filling sounds like it was not enforced until now, not sure it is valid, the 2002 filling (took 5 years) to be finaly accepted and they are trying to enforce it now with previous US art in place.

Not a lawyer, but this does not smell right.

There are various treaties between countries that govern this. In general the great majority of countries will respect the priority dates set in other countries. Submarining of patents is controlled by limiting the time given from the grant in one country to the filing in other countries. This patent likely has a 1997 priority date.
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post #24 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

patents need to be defended soon after either they been granted or soon after a device or invention is determined by the patent holder to be infringing on their patent. To my knowledge, failing to defend the patent vigorously, makes it difficult or imposible to defend far into the future.


LOL, I could be wrong, failed law school.

Unlike trademarks this is not generally the case. One reason is that prosecution of patent infringement is very expensive - typically a minimum of $1,000,000 (thank the lawyers) - so that until there is economic incentive to prosecute (i.e. the violator is making enough profit) violators are not typically pursued.
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post #25 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:36am
I just read the patent, and frankly, from my understanding of electronics, which is fairly broad, this consists of numerous parts that are not patentable, in and of themselves, or are so broadly defined, so as to be useless.

A patent must describe the device, or process to such an extent, that anyone with the required abilities, and materials can build a fairly exact duplicate.

This app is not that at all. The descriptions are often so vague, that one must have extensive knowledge of the subject to be able to design the various parts themselves.

While many patents are process related, and don't describe the process steps in detail, this seems further removed.

In fairness, I have read several of Apple's patent apps that are every bit as vague. I'm not certain that they are any more valid, if challenged.

The problem is that in recent years the Appeals court that oversees patents has broadened the "obviousness" doctrine to such an extent that patents are being issued that would never have been, before the court was created in the '80's.

The Supreme Court is now involved in a couple of important cases which may roll back much of that laxity.

We'll see what happens.
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post #26 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:39am
So after reading the patent, I'm actually more confused as to what they patented. A playback method for MP3? That's kinda strange. Especially since the patent was filed in 2006, and wouldn't they need permission from the creators of MP3 to do anything with the codec? SUE THEM Alcatel-Lucent!!!! SUE THEM!!!!
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post #27 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I hope that eventually patents take a form more like trademarks. You either use it (or make vlaid attempts to use it) or lose it. Having an idea isn't enough if you can't figure out how to implement/produce it or simply don't want to impose the tme and expense to market it.

You can't patent an idea. You must patent either a device, or process, based upon that idea. But, the idea itself can be used by others.

An example is the auto level electronic flash. Honeywell invented that. Other manufacturers used its principals, and were properly sued by Honeywell. Honeywell won, and the others were required to pay them a royalty.

While the idea of the auto level electronic flash could have been used by anyone, the patent that Honeywell applied for, and was issued, was so simple, cheap, and effective, than no one wanted to bother coming up with an alternative—but they COULD have. The idea of the auto level electronic flash was not patentable.

In two other cases, patents were issued in error.

Some time ago, someone applied for a patent on swiveling handles for a wheelbarrow. He included all drawings of the handles—and the wheelbarrow to which they were attached.

He was issued a patent for: Wheelbarrow, with swiveling handles.

He tried to sue for royalties for wheelbarrows, and his patent was swiftly negated in court.

A friend of mine patented curved vanes (to more efficently circulate the liquid) for silver recovery units. He was issued a patent for the entire concept of silver recovery units.

Obviously, that couldn't stand either. He had to re-file.
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post #28 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Unlike trademarks this is not generally the case. One reason is that prosecution of patent infringement is very expensive - typically a minimum of $1,000,000 (thank the lawyers) - so that until there is economic incentive to prosecute (i.e. the violator is making enough profit) violators are not typically pursued.

In addition to what you said, patent holders, if they are small companies, or individuals, often wait until the business using the patent has built itself up to such an extent that the suit will bring in far more money than it would have, if it had been attempted right away.

As past income, and profits, are considered to be recoverable, even though the patent holder may have waited until the patent would expire, there is little reason to rush into it.
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post #29 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I hope that eventually patents take a form more like trademarks. You either use it (or make vlaid attempts to use it) or lose it. Having an idea isn't enough if you can't figure out how to implement/produce it or simply don't want to impose the tme and expense to market it.

While overall I don't disagree it is usually easy to deal with the current situation if a company is diligent up front in finding applicable patent and negotiating reasonable terms with the owner(s).

As it is reasonably easy to research the patents I would be almost certain the Apple is/was well aware of this patent, at least the 1997 version, and has a strategy in place to address this. It may well be that they expect this to pass muster if challenged in court. We'll see.
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post #30 of 42
2/26/07 at 12:05pm
Another lawsuit?!

How many companies hold patents to the MP3 format?

I have only one conclusion.
Dump MP3!
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post #31 of 42
2/26/07 at 12:15pm
Dump MP3 is just part of the solution, I think it's about time Apple start patenting every Apple software and hardware possible and suit or counter suit anyone to make this more entertaining.

Let's keep those hard-nosed lawyers busy, god forbid, they all went to law schools to make tons of money. We have laws so we can suit and counter suit each other for fun, excitement and if nothing else... it makes good news!
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post #32 of 42
2/26/07 at 1:15pm
I agree - dump mp3 - go open source. That may be the only way to fight Patent Trolls
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post #33 of 42
2/26/07 at 1:19pm
I did a quick read of the pattent so maybe I got it wrong, but to me it looks like they patented the idea of a handheld device that plays music and has a menu with foward, back, etc where the music is encoded using MP3 and decoded for play by the device. If I am correct, and this is a valid patent, then all MP3 players including the iPOD, and the iPhone are in trouble.


I hope I got it wrong.
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post #34 of 42
2/26/07 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

On the other hand, Apple could just as easily have formed 'patent teams' to invent a variety of ingenious ways they could exploit and patent existing, and up and coming technologies for use with Apple devices and Apple's areas of strength. From personal experience, I've seen time and again larger companies (Apple included) who cannot see the forest for the trees on new technologies and their impact on their business. If I were Jobs, I'd make sure individuals and teams of "skunk-works" outside of Apple were up and running. Immediately. It continues to cost Apple a bloody fortune every time they get forced into some kind of licensing agreement or settlement. Tackling the problem at the bottom would be a heck of a lot cheaper.

Yeah, two can play the game. It's just pathetic that this game has to take place. It's obscene the legal fees for some of these things, and I work at a law firm.
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post #35 of 42
2/26/07 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I hope that eventually patents take a form more like trademarks. You either use it (or make vlaid attempts to use it) or lose it. Having an idea isn't enough if you can't figure out how to implement/produce it or simply don't want to impose the tme and expense to market it.

I absolutely agree with you - mainly because I also had the idea independently

You should get three years to actually implement your idea in a product put to market or the idea becomes prior art.

I am not up to speed with all the constituents of the mad tsunami of patents that is threatening the delivery of digital music at the moment but I seem to recall there was a biggie in the form of a patent on the very idea of downloading music from a an itunes type store as well as the iTunes interface. Now we have the mp3 player and the encoding of MP3 files.

I actually hope we get a couple more all encompassing biggies emerge soon then even the geriatric legislators will be able to see that the whole patent eco system has become dysfunctional.

Who will step forward in a weeks time to announce that they have a previously obscure patent which covers the whole mobile phone idea?

I am sorry to tell you all this but I happen to have a patent on the idea of breathing and I believe you are all functioning without having obtained a proper license so if you wish to continue breathing you can send your Paypal payments to.....
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post #36 of 42
2/26/07 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I absolutely agree with you - mainly because I also had the idea independently

You should get three years to actually implement your idea in a product put to market or the idea becomes prior art.

I don't think that would be fair to independent inventors, or very small companies.

A large number of inventions that are patented are to those folks who do so on their own dime, and have no way to produce the invention.

They often go around to companies in the business their invention would serve, but are turned down. The problem independents find, is there is the "not invented here, by someone who knows the business" aspect.

If after several frustrating years of attempting to persuade companies to take their invention on, and the lack of the financial industry to back these risky ventures, and lacking funds to search the relevant journals, and markets, for infringement, years later, sometimes by chance, the inventor finds their product being produced by someone else after all.

How do you intend to allow for that? My idea has always been to require the inventor make an effort, within his(her) financial means to get the invention produced. After that, nothing more can, or should be expected. But, the inventor still deserves the right to reward, if, and when someone else copies it, or works it out for themselves.

That's what patent searches are for. Large companies employ patent attorneys for that purpose. They should be the ones on the hook.
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post #37 of 42
2/26/07 at 8:36pm
It's a valid patent, but it's playing dirty and i hope they lose. I also believe that mp3 technology should now be abandoned for obvious reasons, the liscencing bullshit is horrible. I also hope that Microsoft wins its appeal
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post #38 of 42
2/26/07 at 11:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techboy View Post

Dump MP3 is just part of the solution, I think it's about time Apple start patenting every Apple software and hardware possible and suit or counter suit anyone to make this more entertaining.

What makes you think they don't?

This is all just a big game, and the only winners are the lawyers.

Some no-name company buys a patent and think "I can sue everybody". Then everybody else brandishes their patent portfolios and says "OK, and now you will be sued for violating these hundred patents". The lawyers yell at each other, and ultimately decide to settle out of court, usually with little or no money changing hands (except to the lawyers, of course.)
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post #39 of 42
2/27/07 at 2:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

I did a quick read of the pattent so maybe I got it wrong, but to me it looks like they patented the idea of a handheld device that plays music and has a menu with foward, back, etc where the music is encoded using MP3 and decoded for play by the device. If I am correct, and this is a valid patent, then all MP3 players including the iPOD, and the iPhone are in trouble.


I hope I got it wrong.

There's no right or wrong anymore, haven't you heard? 8)
It's either 1. go to court and fight it out or 2. settle outside of court.
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post #40 of 42
2/27/07 at 9:42am
Things like this make me ashamed to be a Texan.

WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO SOUTHERN HOSPITALITY, BOYS? C'MERE SO I CAN REFRESH YOUR MEMORY...
"Picasso had a saying, 'Good artists copy, great artists steal.' And we've always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
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"Picasso had a saying, 'Good artists copy, great artists steal.' And we've always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
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