Apple COO talks about iPhone, 3G, and the Cingular partnership - Page 2

But then again, for the non 3G phone, we're talking about the US. Its seems everyone believes, and I agree, that the European introduction will have 3G. To me that seems like pretty good match of products to current market.

oops double post

I cant wait to get the iPhone so i can put away my treo650 for good.

Google's online business apps aren't designed for the small screen. Mobile office suites like QuickOffice are. It's important there are business apps.

Also, things that are missing that I have on my p910 and use most days...

Tasks/todo
Jotter for notes
Safe - for storing passwords and other secure info
PDF reader
ssh
Java
Sound Recorder
TomTom Mobile
Expenses
VNC

There's about 30 games on mine too, most of which are open source or emulators - ScummVM, MAME, Lemmings.

I'm pretty curious about this, actually. To view any normal web page, I would think EDGE speeds would be more than adequate. It's about 128kbps, right? So a page that's 100k would take a bit under 10 seconds (it's 12.8 k bytes per second, approximately).

I just loaded up Cingular's plans page, which I had not loaded previously, and it took about 15 seconds for my cable modem and 1.6ghz PowerBook G4 to download and process. So it doesn't seem to me like my effective speeds are that much more than EDGE.

I suppose video content might be a little painful but I don't watch enough video for it to matter that much.

So why are people so bothered by the lack of 3G? It seems like something that's more a feature checkoff than anything that we'll really use.

D

Office suite = Google Apps..... more than you'll ever need, and fast and light!

I have a treo 700w. I've never hated anything more in my entire life. I'm very tech savvy, and I know what I'm doing. But if this dang thing crashes one more time, or doesn't pick up a call when I answer it, or if one more app times out, or if one more key goes bad, or if my stylus flys out again just by answering the phone, or if the microphone screeches one more time while taking a video... well, then... I don't know WHAT i'm going to do with myself....short of holding my breath until Appl finally gets this whole thing right for the first time in human history.

I know it's not 'real OSX' running...but man, I can't imagine OSX crashing in such a controlled environment...

weird double post

telstra 'next g' is 3G as well.

i swore i'd only buy japanese phones, and have been happy with my NEC i-mode phone even tho' it is getting a bit long in the tooth. but with my contract finishing in nov. i'll prob get the iPhone. it'll prob be thru telstra (which kinda sucks as they are so inflexible with their plans), tho' telstra have said some negative things about the iPhone recently. by the time it comes out here, it'll be 3G

edit: mrjoec123, great post btw!

I gotta say this does not usually bother me but Scotty who on this board really gives a shit if you and or your clients are gonna buy it? I certainly do not give 2 shits. I feel like 30 seconds of my life and now a minute have been completely wasted. Thanks jackass.

Again, we don't even know what is included at this point but most of these would not need to be third party in any case. This is OS X.

Tasks/todo - iCal/calendar
Jotter - Textedit
Safe - keychain (part of Safari wouldn't know why they wouldn't use it.)
PDF reader - part of safari and part of OS X
ssh - terminal/ssh - part of OS X
Java - Frankly won't miss it
Sound Recorder - Agree, if you need it. I won't miss it but not part of OS X
TomTom Mobile - my guess something like this will be certified, we'll see
Expenses - Agree, if you need it
VNC - If you complaining about google apps on a small screen this would be even worse getting another computers full desktop.

The point is most of these are part of OS X and wouldn't need third party apps in any case and we don't know what apple will include. These certainly wouldn't have been part of a demo as they are mostly of limited interest COMPARED to what was shown.

When did "smartphone" get redefined as "a phone with Office apps"?


PS: I'm sure Cingular would hare it, but I'd love to see a Slingbox-like interaction with my home Mac and my iPhone. This can easily be achieved with a no-hassle setup with QT Streaming Server and a .Mac account.

But these are all PC 'smartphone' type of apps. I mean, that's what a treo is for and windows mobile. Why on earth would I ever want those types of apps on a iPhone...which i'm only think of as a phone, mapping, contacts, googling, etc. device? Once you start putting a bunch of crap on it, you might as well have bough a treo all over again, along with all its instability, crashing, and otherworldly bugginess.

When Appl come out with a trusted OS version of OSX for the iPhone in the next decade, then THAT's when I might entertain SSH'ing into my firewall to configure it. But by then we'll be running triple authentication (bio, pw, and certs) and so I won't fret about losing my phone.

I dunno... I think people are comparing iPhones to smartphones.... it's like comparing Ferrari's to Cadillacs. Just appreciate the g'damn Ferrari for what it is, and stop whining that it doesn't have in-dash DVD players. Like the other poster said...it's not even out yet, so what exactly are we criticizing yet.

The iPhone is not a smartphone....and that's what makes it brilliant.

finally!

s

Damn straight it is OS X. It has Darwin, Cocoa, Core Animation, Security Features and Battery Optimization. It's OS X.

Sebastian

The lack of 3G was my only disappointment. Cingular has 3G, and it is deployed in my area, and it is even included on my plan already. But I understand 3G sucks power. And it's true, there are tons of open WiFi spots around here. (Perhaps WiFi sucks as much power as 3G? Hmm) Hopefully, the phone will auto-grab any nearby open WiFi spot it is near, and prefer it over EDGE. If it does that, I will survive just fine for 6 months until a 3G model comes out, and my original model will probably sell for a decent price.

There are only 4 ways a Desktop OS can branch into a Mobile OS:

1. I'm unable to port my desktop OS to a mobile platform, so I'll create a new mobile OS with a UI that mimics the desktop OS because it's familiar, despite it not being ideal for the mobile I/O
2. I'm unable to port my desktop OS to a mobile platform, so I'll create a a new mobile OS and make a new UI that is ideal for the mobile I/O.
3. I'm able to port my desktop OS to a mobile platform, but I'm sticking with the desktop UI because it's familiar, despite not being ideal for the mobile I/O.
4. I'm able to port my desktop OS to a mobile platform, but I'll redo the UI so that is ideal for the mobile I/O.

Can you guess which ones are OS X and Windows?

NextG is CDMA, not GSM, and hence not relevant to future 3G iPhones.

If you think Verizon rejected Apple, then Apple equally rejected Verizon by not agreeing to Verizon's terms. And the historical timeline shows that Apple worked with Cingular first before going to Verizon. So we don't know if Verizon would've been a second partner or if that overture was supposed to put pressure on Cingular.

Also, Cook's statement on supply and demand wasn't dumb at all. He was asked a question and either it's true he doesn't know (which I doubt) or he didn't want to give out Apple's internal marketing information (which is just a forecast so arguably he can say truthfully that he doesn't know). And he basically said regardless of what demand is, Apple can ramp to meet it just as they did with the iPod. And Apple will probably gage demand by taking pre-orders in May. So what's dumb about that?

And finally, Cook did reveal new information about how Apple's product planning process is radically different from what's being taught in B-schools. Maybe you all guessed this already but in that case, he confirms it. There's more here between the lines...

This is silly, and dated.

He -- and the people that work for him -- should go back to business school. He might be surprised.

Damn right I don't want that kind of buggy crap. That's why I run it all on my totally rock solid Symbian based phone. I don't need a big old crappy Treo or Windows Mobile phone when a smaller Nokia Series 60 or SE UIQ phone runs all those apps just fine. Most of them come free too.

Only problem there is, I reckon Symbian have screwed up with Release 9. It's almost as buggy as the other two.


Sometimes it's just damn useful to ssh into the server and fix something whilst I'm out. I've ssh on my phone. It's no less safe than sshing in from my Mac. The KVM is Java based so that would be handy too. I can do that now on a cheap Nokia Series 60 phone.


I wasn't criticising it. Just stating what it would need to actually be useful to me some of which are obviously quite specialised items. No need to get defensive.

Ferraris aren't terribly useful as day to day transport I find.

Does this imply that the iPhone will do VoIP when it is within range of a WiFi AP?? My understanding was that it did not -- I need to know this; it may effect a business decision.

I think the iPhone is an amazing product but w/o VoIP I can't help feeling like Apple is missing the boat on the real revolution in Telephony.

K

Heard of PPT? \

hmmm... maybe that's why he used the past tense, as in, "were taught", "market was," etc...?

They aren't calling it a smartphone. Other people are.

Yep and never touch it. I've got Keynote

And for reviewing on a phone PDF is just fine. I wouldn't really want to edit a presentation on a phone in any case. Minor edits to excel and word seem OK but I personally wouldn't do it.

The difference being that a lite-office type app can be made to work on a compact device and has been done for maybe five years, without having to resort to AJAX hackery, needing a network and such. I'm not saying AJAX is bad, but if Apple really was concerned about not overloading the carrier's networks, then they will have to allow a native app for that. AJAX really isn't an ideal for that task.

At least using the network for VNC is justifiable, it's intrinsic to the service.

I don't think it's necessary to use a certain word to convey the same idea. What they say tries to gives the impression that it is an extension to the smartphone idea - a supersmartphone if you will.

It doesn't have a PDF viewer either.

I disagree. Apple is saying that this is a revolutionary device, not an extension to existing technology. I tend to agree. It does not go down the smart phone path (in fact its does a lot less than what most smart phones do). It goes down a completely new path. This is a new class of product. It bridges the UI and ease of use of a desktop operating system with the functionality of mobile devices. It's a paradigm shift.

Never fear. The iPhone specs say it will automatically transition to wifi if available, and it was in fact using wifi during Steve's demo.

I would be quite surprised if a version if iWork was not made available for the iPhone. In fact, this may be why we haven't heard much about iWork lately. If the iPhone had Pages, Keynote and Numbers adapted for the small screen I think it would be of great interest. And imagine if your Documents folder was automatically synched through iTunes!

Really, this is such an obvious idea that I'd be very surprised if Steve and friends haven't already thought it through and implemented it. The iPhone is still a great device without it, but that would really take people to the next level. That could also be one of the "top secret" features that they don't want Microsoft copying with Windows Mobile. The nice fellow who went through the keynote with a fine-toothed comb looking for features pointed out a "Personal" synch tab that was never shown; this is what they're doing with it.

Incidentally, why is it that there is no synch via WiFi? The answer is so obvious I'm a little surprised it was overlooked. The iPhone needs to be charged, probably on a daily basis like my Sidekick does. What more natural thing than to take the iPhone home, put it in its charger/dock and have it automatically synch and charge. And that ensures that short of extremely long talk times, you'll never run out of battery.

If we ever get little atomic power plants for portable devices, the iPhone will be able to sync via WiFi. Until then, that little cable saves your phone by keeping it charged.

D

My whole point is we don't know that. We only know some of the things it does have. The Quartz and QuartzCore frameworks are only about 10+ MByte on Intel. Easy to fit on the phone.

They can say that but apart from the UI and Multitouch, it patently isn't anything new or revolutionary. It's an expensive smartphone with limited functionality.

Possibly but then they had icons for things that didn't work yet on the demo model so why not add a Preview.app icon too?

And why not a Terminal.app and and iWork.app and.... on the front screen. I'm not saying all of these will be there but there was no reason to demo them. They were not the story. I wouldn't necessarily expect 'Preview.app'. You should be able to view PDF's in Safari if nothing else. I would also guess directly in Mail messages, where you're likely to get them in any case.

If every app is on the front screen then you have the crap UI of other phones.


For most of us it is the UI that IS a revolution. This is main area where current phone just don't cut it. Of course you can become an expert and use a phone efficiently but why should you.

I think it was actually cabled up with a direct cable all of the time it was demoed. I'd be very surprised if it transitions to Wi-Fi for calls using SIP. That's the kind of thing that would be shouted from the rooftops and the kind of thing that carriers hate. Most of the carriers in the UK here have disabled VoIP on the Nokia range of phones that are capable of acting as SIP phones (Nokia N80ie, E61 etc).


It's a lot of work to adapt a desktop app for a small screen and the iWork apps consume a lot of screen real estate with their multiple inspectors and drawers.

My Documents folder is 120GB so I hope it doesn't get synced. I'd rather they used iSync than iTunes too but apparently they aren't.

It annoys me immensely that one of Apple's worst applications is the home for syncing devices and they're letting iSync wither.


It's been done already on Palm, Windows and Symbian for almost a decade. They all sync office documents.


Syncing data takes no time at all after the first sync as most changes are small, so it's not about the battery. I sync my phone wirelessly already even though it comes with a dock. It's just easier.

I'd much rather have a Preview.app than Safari or Mail for viewing PDFs. Neither of the latter are any good at it.

The front screen UI was obviously not finished since they can't seriously be expecting users to stick with a max of 16 applications/widgets. I guess it'll scroll but it'd also be useful to categorise apps or stick them in folders.

I'm sure there's more to come on the UI front.



I agree. That's where all of the current phone platforms suck. Some more than others, but they are all terrible.

But after a nice UI, it still has to do stuff that you'd expect from a $600 smartphone and they've picked a very limited subset for their presales pitch.

Good point. I haven't seen the latancy differences, but for most usages this is what matters... I have a broadband internet link to my house, it isn't turned all the way up yet (it's running at .6 Mb/s), but in web browsing and small file downloads it runs circles around these '8 Mb/s' cable deals. I was on the phone once and I had visited probably three pages for every one that that the cable connection did... When it came to sites with heavy graphics it was STILL faster. Just not so drastically. It's sorta like the hype about MP.

Latency of the EDGE versus 3G proper, anyone?

Why?? That's a value judgement that the market has to make and as I, and many others, have said before, this is EXACTLY the same argument that was wrong for the iPod. "... It has to have many many more functions to be worth $399 (I think the price of the original). It has to have recording. It has to have an FM radio. It has to support WMA. etc. etc.

None of us will know until the market speaks but I think this will follow the iPod and therefore I don't think Jobs' and Cook's words are hyperbole.

It's not really general web browsing that's the issue and yes there is more of a latency issue with 3G than EDGE.

At some point you're going to want to download a large file to your connected computer, watch streaming video, perform a video call or whatever and for that you need a faster connection really than EDGE.

I know what you mean and I've used that argument myself. Apple does well often by concentrating on doing a few things well rather than adding lots of features. If that means they don't sell to every market niche then that's usually fine by them.

However, I don't think it's quite the same as the iPod this time. That just had one niche to fill. Phones have a much broader market. No matter how sexy the UI is, people still expect expensive phones to have certain functions and IMHO they're missing more than a few. Not letting people install extra apps is even more strange. Sure, they could just be going after the 'Ferrari' market - expensive, flash but not terribly practical. That doesn't sound revolutionary to me.

But as you've said, maybe that will change before release. For me, it's a year away anyway so they've plenty of time to fix the deficiencies or for hackers to put back the OSX services and apps many power users want. Heck, someone might have even ported Linux to it by the time I get one like they've done to the iPod. It's not far off the OpenMoko hardware. Problem solved.

I imagine Apple wanted a world-wide partner - Vodafone worldwide. That would have given them a smaller CDMA version in the US this year with Verizon, followed by a 3G version in Europe (and worldwide) next year. Going GSM at 2G this year probably shaved 5mm (1/4 inch) off the thickness - by next year 3G will be small enough.


I thought that was confirmed as being in there. Can't find it though. hmmm.


They said it was OSX and listed off a whole heap of features. Features they did NOT mention included Darwin and Carbon. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple thinks of Darwin as just the underlying stuff that OSX runs on.


Three released 3G in Australia 3 years ago. Vodafone was 18 months ago, followed shortly by Optus (partnering Vodafone). Telstra partnered with Three for 3G. All of this was in the standard European 3GSM bands, and is only available in the capital cities so far (Optus rolling out nationwide over the next 3 years).

Telstra has released NextG, which is 3GSM nationwide, using their old CDMA frequencies (CDMA is shutting down) instead of the standard frequencies. 3GSM on 850Mhz is an unusual setup, though Cingular in the US is using that frequency which may mean an iPhone that only works on that and Telstra. More likely, though, is regular 3G for Europe.