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Latest Leopard build from Apple suggests much work ahead

post #1 of 214
Thread Starter 
A new build of Apple's Leopard operating system released to developers this week introduces a handful of fresh features, but also carries with it a significant laundry list of impending issues that will need to be ironed out before any such public release is considered.

Please Note: This article has been removed temporarily for edits at the request of Apple Inc.

It will return shortly.
post #2 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

With a significant list of known issues and a "top secret" bag of tricks under wraps and broadly untested, it would seem incredibly unlikely the Cupertino-based company will be ready to push its latest cat out the door any time soon.

With reports like this, we would be lucky to have Leopard shipping this WWDC.
post #3 of 214
Quote:
Series issues also remain

Did you mean to say "Serious issues also remain"?
post #4 of 214
Leopard will remind us all of the first OS X: "10.0 Cheetah" because of the issues it will have.

But it will be so compelling that you'll live with the bugginess and not care a whit.
:-D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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:-D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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post #5 of 214
My Theory - I'm sure there are a lot of issues and problems in the stripped down, feature barren releases that Apple is letting outside of its doors. Remember that this is the same company that is so guarded about its secrets that it created fake iPhone prototypes to throw off partners and people inside the company while developing that product. Leopard isn't any different. Steve Jobs has already said that there are these "top secret" features to the new OS and we've not seen any of those - indicating to me that they're stripping these from the beta software that they're giving to developers. I'm sure there is another set of code around the Cupertino campus which includes the full set of features and probably a lot less bugs. I could be wrong, but that's my theory. 8)
post #6 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiP View Post

My Theory - I'm sure there are a lot of issues and problems in the stripped down, feature barren releases that Apple is letting outside of its doors. Remember that this is the same company that is so guarded about its secrets that it created fake iPhone prototypes to throw off partners and people inside the company while developing that product. Leopard isn't any different. Steve Jobs has already said that there are these "top secret" features to the new OS and we've not seen any of those - indicating to me that they're stripping these from the beta software that they're giving to developers. I'm sure there is another set of code around the Cupertino campus which includes the full set of features and probably a lot less bugs. I could be wrong, but that's my theory. 8)

My money is on a WWDC intro.
post #7 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

With reports like this, we would be lucky to have Leopard shipping this WWDC.

And yet, that would still be meeting their Spring target. (Spring ends June 21.) I gotta say, I've been expecting that timeframe all along - assume they got it polished, ready, and perfect by March 31. They could either try and step up all other efforts (marketing, production, etc) to meet that, including stepping up any hardware projects that may be tied to 10.5... or they could spend the time to add in some features that had been slated for 10.5.1. ie, more bugs. Too many other things are going to be tied to 10.5's release, I just don't see them shipping it early.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #8 of 214
Perhaps they should rename Leopard into Longhorn...
post #9 of 214
How exactly do they test the secret features while still keeping them secret?
post #10 of 214
I sure hope this is ready by June! It sounds dismal. And realistically, when will they reveal the new features (like an upgraded Finder) to developers?
post #11 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

With reports like this, we would be lucky to have Leopard shipping this WWDC.

Agreed... given this list as an engineering lead, my off-the-cuff estimate would be 6 months or so. It would be interesting to see the chart of new bugs vs. in-progress engineering, in-progress QA, fixed, and verified bugs, and see if they're over the hump yet. It doesn't really sound like it from this report.
post #12 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquare View Post

Perhaps they should rename Leopard into Longhorn...

Longhorn aka Vista will be known as Platypus after Tiger is out, it'll make the Vista look like an extinct and funny looking animal.
:-D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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post #13 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiP View Post

My Theory - I'm sure there are a lot of issues and problems in the stripped down, feature barren releases that Apple is letting outside of its doors. Remember that this is the same company that is so guarded about its secrets that it created fake iPhone prototypes to throw off partners and people inside the company while developing that product. Leopard isn't any different. Steve Jobs has already said that there are these "top secret" features to the new OS and we've not seen any of those - indicating to me that they're stripping these from the beta software that they're giving to developers. I'm sure there is another set of code around the Cupertino campus which includes the full set of features and probably a lot less bugs. I could be wrong, but that's my theory. 8)

You could be wrong, and so could I cause I had the same theory. This is the oldest trick in the book - misdirection.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #14 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacVicta View Post

How exactly do they test the secret features while still keeping them secret?

In house. The tested all the iPhone software in house, with no testing outside Apple. If they can do that, I'm sure the build these developers are getting is the build Apple was working on over 6 months ago.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #15 of 214
There's a good possiblity that much of the very foundation of OS X (kernel and core services) will be completely swapped out in the final builds, and an 11th-hour swap will be made to keep the lid on things until then.

Having said that, though, I still consider a release this month as very unlikely... and as much as I'd be thrilled for it to happen, I'd rather Leopard be rock-solid upon release. With it's immediate and direct comparison to Vista, it needs to be as flawless as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiP View Post

My Theory - I'm sure there are a lot of issues and problems in the stripped down, feature barren releases that Apple is letting outside of its doors. Remember that this is the same company that is so guarded about its secrets that it created fake iPhone prototypes to throw off partners and people inside the company while developing that product. Leopard isn't any different. Steve Jobs has already said that there are these "top secret" features to the new OS and we've not seen any of those - indicating to me that they're stripping these from the beta software that they're giving to developers. I'm sure there is another set of code around the Cupertino campus which includes the full set of features and probably a lot less bugs. I could be wrong, but that's my theory. 8)
post #16 of 214
Take all the time you need Apple.
1. Vista really isn't forcing you to release early.
2. Your new machines to run this thing haven't arrived.
3. Just make it right and release it when you are completely ready.
Make it idiotproof and they'll just make a
better idiot.
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Make it idiotproof and they'll just make a
better idiot.
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post #17 of 214
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiP
My Theory - I'm sure there are a lot of issues and problems in the stripped down, feature barren releases that Apple is letting outside of its doors. Remember that this is the same company that is so guarded about its secrets that it created fake iPhone prototypes to throw off partners and people inside the company while developing that product. Leopard isn't any different. Steve Jobs has already said that there are these "top secret" features to the new OS and we've not seen any of those - indicating to me that they're stripping these from the beta software that they're giving to developers. I'm sure there is another set of code around the Cupertino campus which includes the full set of features and probably a lot less bugs. I could be wrong, but that's my theory.

You could be wrong, and so could I - cause I had the same theory. This is the oldest trick in the book, misdirection.

Ditto
post #18 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

And yet, that would still be meeting their Spring target. (Spring ends June 21.)

Actually, this is the least I would care for at this point. Even if Apple fails to keep the Spring target (whatever the definition), it is not so serious. For me at least. It is software development after all and it will come out sooner or later.
post #19 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandau View Post

Leopard will remind us all of the first OS X: "10.0 Cheetah" because of the issues it will have.

Now it would be nice if it will remind 10.0 for the radical change in the Mac OS landscape (OS 9 --> OS X) that this OS X version has marked.
post #20 of 214
Pssst, March 24th but you didn't hear anything from me...

That's been the magical date for a number of new products from Apple in the past. I just installed 9A377a and it seems to be working fine. It primarily deals with issues in Xcode. It includes DP6 of 3.0 which works out all sorts of problems that plagued DP5. I'd bet money that developers are working around the clock in Cupertino to address the "laundry list" of issues in the new seed. Actually, I don't have to bet. A buddy of mine works for Apple as a developer. I saw him for a few minutes the other day and apparently he hasn't slept for a few days. I laughed and told him to get back to work only after I asked him for the details of the new iMacs but no dice
post #21 of 214
For all the effort that has been put into this release I certainly hope it's as dramatic a step as Steve has hinted at.

I'm wondering if, just as Microsoft took Apple's play on the X and worked it into XP, Apple will release this as OS X.V to make the direct 'V'ista challenge

There's certainly been talk about changing the naming convention, and this would make some sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Now it would be nice if it will remind 10.0 for the radical change in the Mac OS landscape (OS 9 --> OS X) that this OS X version has marked.
post #22 of 214
This is not being released March 24.

Unveiled at a special event with a refreshed UI and some secret stuff... very possibly. Released.... no.
post #23 of 214
I really think they are going to bring on a new UI (see rumours about "illuminuous" or smth like that). Rumours say it is going to be a more black-oriented UI, more like we see in the full screen mode in iPhoto. That would be cool I guess. March seems too early for me too.
post #24 of 214
We shouldn't forget that Apple denied that it kept a version of OS X for Intel processors a secret for years. This build is probably just smoke and mirrors.
post #25 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevrozel View Post

I really think they are going to bring on a new UI (see rumours about "illuminuous" or smth like that). Rumours say it is going to be a more black-oriented UI, more like we see in the full screen mode in iPhoto. That would be cool I guess. March seems too early for me too.

I started that rumor, let's just wait and see shall we? Look at the iPhone, that should give you some decent hints of the Leopard UI.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #26 of 214
There is at least some truth to that... Software can only be some componatized, especially a complex OS.
post #27 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Look at the iPhone, that should give you some decent hints of the Leopard UI.

Agreed.

There's also a thoughtful blog entry discussing possible Leopard UI directions (as gleaned from recent Apple interface trends) here.

Think that.... plus new CoreAnimation effects.
post #28 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcloki View Post

Take all the time you need Apple.
1. Vista really isn't forcing you to release early.
2. Your new machines to run this thing haven't arrived.
3. Just make it right and release it when you are completely ready.

hear! hear! (or maybe a UK poster can correct me--is it "here! here!" ?)
post #29 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtdunham View Post

hear! hear! (or maybe a UK poster can correct me--is it "here! here!" ?)

You were right the first time. It's Hear! Hear!
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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post #30 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

With reports like this, we would be lucky to have Leopard shipping this WWDC.

I believe the "Top Secret" stuff will give Steve an excuse to show off the stuff at WWDC then turn around and say, "Since these features are so cool and we want to get them right so the release is being delayed to the end of summer."

I mean really, you're going to give developer a state-of-the-union at the same time you release to their customers??? That's not right.
post #31 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

We shouldn't forget that Apple denied that it kept a version of OS X for Intel processors a secret for years. This build is probably just smoke and mirrors.

You have to ask why though. The Intel version was kept secret for a reason. What is the reason to keep Leopard a secret? I can understand keeping out secret features but we're talking about core system features causing kernel panics. These releases are intended for developers testing their software against. I see no reason why they would deliberately give their developers unstable builds.

The argument is compelling but only for the reason that we expect more from Apple not because there is any probability that it's true. I'm going to have to join the camp of people saying a WWDC release. I don't want to but the reality is that Apple are not keeping up. We're still waiting on product updates, they've delayed the Apple TVs and now we see Leopard in this state. It's just one disappointment after another.
post #32 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You have to ask why though. The Intel version was kept secret for a reason. What is the reason to keep Leopard a secret? I can understand keeping out secret features but we're talking about core system features causing kernel panics. These releases are intended for developers testing their software against. I see no reason why they would deliberately give their developers unstable builds.

The reason to keep a new UI for Leopard a secret for as long as possible is very simple: they want as much of a competitive advantage on Microsoft as possible (who are working on Vista SP1 -- and beginning to plan Vienna -- as we speak). Thus, Apple is carefully waiting to unveil the secret elements of Leopard until close to release (say around 60 days), which will probably be late spring, or even early summer.

As for unstable developer releases, c'mon. They're developer releases. Things are shifting around all the time, and there's going to be glitches, bugs, and quirks. All the current state of seeds indicate that Leopard isn't going to be released in March... but anyone who's been following the seeds has known that for some time now.
post #33 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquare View Post

Perhaps they should rename Leopard into Longhorn...

Nah, not appropriate unless the release date slips to 2012 or so.

.
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Thanks for listening to your...
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post #34 of 214
Apple is farther ahead in the development cycle then we think. The builds that are released to developers are just that, developer builds. They are not meant to test the OS itself like the smaller updates (10.4.9 for example) but to test the developers products.

That being said, I have no idea when to expect Leopard

I just can't wait to see something official from Apple revealing these new secret features.
post #35 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcl View Post

For all the effort that has been put into this release I certainly hope it's as dramatic a step as Steve has hinted at.

I'm wondering if, just as Microsoft took Apple's play on the X and worked it into XP, Apple will release this as OS X.V to make the direct 'V'ista challenge

There's certainly been talk about changing the naming convention, and this would make some sense.

Really? That gets pretty, er... Roman after awhile, doesn't it?

"What build you on? OS X.VII... but I'm waiting for OS X.IX before I upgrade. Let's hope OS XI is good, and doesn't have problems upon shipping so that we have to wait for XI.III before upgrading. In other news, I've horsewhipped my slaves and have changed my name to Centurion Smith."

Yeargh.

.
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
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post #36 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacVicta View Post

How exactly do they test the secret features while still keeping them secret?

Does Apple beta test any of their other software, like iLife or Final Cut Pro before releasing it?

(Don't say Aperture or I's kill you)
post #37 of 214
LOL

I don't expect it would be a continuing theme, nor even how it would be identified by the system... rather what's stamped on the box and the DVDs/CDs for this specific release.

It would certainly be far less lame than MS's method of working the X in XP... "it stands for XPerience" - c'mon.

Nice pirate expletive, too, BTW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Really? That gets pretty, er... Roman after awhile, doesn't it?

"What build you on? OS X.VII... but I'm waiting for OS X.IX before I upgrade. Let's hope OS XI is good, and doesn't have problems upon shipping so that we have to wait for XI.III before upgrading. In other news, I've horsewhipped my slaves and have changed my name to Centurion Smith."

Yeargh.

.
post #38 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

In house. The tested all the iPhone software in house, with no testing outside Apple. If they can do that, I'm sure the build these developers are getting is the build Apple was working on over 6 months ago.

For that to work well, the Apple employees have to be representative of their diverse user base. It can happen, but it's not easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machead2007 View Post

Pssst, March 24th but you didn't hear anything from me...

Or probably not. Rumors are that if a date has been leaked, with or without authorization, they tend to scrub it and hold it on another date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post

Think that.... plus new CoreAnimation effects.

New CoreAnimation effects? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought CoreAnimation was an added layer to OpenGL to simplify 3D work by require less coding than using pure OpenGL. I didn't notice anything in that video or in the original Leopard presentation that showed it added effects not already possible using OpenGL.
post #39 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandau View Post

Leopard will remind us all of the first OS X: "10.0 Cheetah" because of the issues it will have.

But it will be so compelling that you'll live with the bugginess and not care a whit.

Heh, if that's true then it looks like I'll be holding off on an upgrade until 10.6! \

I think I speak for many a Mac user when I say that OS 9 was far more "compelling" at that particular point in history. The quickly followed release of 10.1 (and moreover its free availability to 10.0 owners) speaks volumes about how "compelling" 10.0 really was...
post #40 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiP View Post

My Theory - I'm sure there are a lot of issues and problems in the stripped down, feature barren releases that Apple is letting outside of its doors. Remember that this is the same company that is so guarded about its secrets that it created fake iPhone prototypes to throw off partners and people inside the company while developing that product. Leopard isn't any different. Steve Jobs has already said that there are these "top secret" features to the new OS and we've not seen any of those - indicating to me that they're stripping these from the beta software that they're giving to developers. I'm sure there is another set of code around the Cupertino campus which includes the full set of features and probably a lot less bugs. I could be wrong, but that's my theory. 8)

Sorry, that's a bad theory. Ignoring the whole stripped out 'secret' features, there's no reason for apple to strip out bug fixes for all these components. Since the releases are for testing your software (and to test the OS itself), how can you be sure your software will work if you can't even access network shares reliably, or certain conditions always cause a crash?

And who are they trying to throw off? The only competitor is MS, and are they sitting around going "Hey, Leopard still is buggy, we can goof off for a week...Wait! Its been released??? Arrrgggghhhh! We're screwed now!
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