Latest Leopard build from Apple suggests much work ahead - Page 3

The platypus isn't extinct.

Geez, what a bunch of whining BS. People, get a grip. The developer community is a giant sieve for Apple so they aren't about to spill the beans by shipping an update out to developers with all the beans inside, ready to be spilled. Those developer updates have what developers need to make their own apps work. No more, no less. Developers don't need any of the top secret features to make their apps work.

My guess is Leopard will be shipping around mid-May or so. If Apple is having a special event at NAB on April 15 to introduce Final Cut Studio 6, and since it's probably dependent upon Leopard, it'll probably ship just after Leopard does. The iPhone is also dependent upon Leopard and it'll be shipping in June.

So, don't expect Leopard to be delayed based on these stupid AI and TS reports. Those running Leopard beta have no idea what Apple has running in its lab. Also, it's just dumb to assume Apple would ship out a buggy OS. The people who ensure that it's solid are very dedicated and hard working. Don't sell 'em short.

So much rumors around Leopard, but in the end it is getting a little late. Apple has to ship Leopard this Spring to remain on schedule with their initial announcement of Leopard last year.
I hope they have a good plan to beat vista in marketing. If fact I read something like they will feature the words "BEYOND VISTA" in their upcoming Leopard ads...

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www.mostofmymac.com

I realize I am a newbie around here, but has anyone mentioned the idea that maybe Leopard will be installable on any Intel product and could potentially displace Windows on any Wintel machine. Yes I know it would hurt hardware sales - just a thought.

Newbie out!

It's possible. The question is how likely it would be. Allowing Mac OS Installation on third party hardware has been tried and I hear it really hurt Apple. I don't know if it would still be true today or not, it's anyones guess. Currently, Apple makes most of its money with hardware, I think their software sales is about 15% that of their computer sales income, and that software includes the OS updates, iLife upgrades, iWork, Final Cut Express and all their pro software too. As much as I'd like it to happen, I really don't see it happening.

You assume that an OS is independent of applications. There are three reasons you are going to buy Leopard:

1) You buy a new Mac that requires it
2) You buy a piece of software that requires it or is vastly improved in it
3) You like Leopard on its own.

#3 is the least likeliest reason for anyone to buy an OS. I'd say 50% of Leopard buyers will be #1 and the other 40% will be #2 leaving 10% for those who just want the newest OS.

Seriously, everyone is talking about what Leopard brings you on its own. Who runs an OS by itself? Just like many apps today require 10.4, very quickly many apps will require 10.5. Already Textmate 2.0, Delicious Library 2.0 do. If small developers that rely on every sale already have decided that Leopard is the minimum they will support it shows that the OS provides some key features to them that let them do what they do best even better. And thats why you'll buy Leopard.

Looking at the Textmate blog, they explain the reasons, which largely revolves around the reduction in development cost by only supporting one revision, and the fact that the Textmate user base is largely the early-adopter type, which will not necessarily be reflected in the user base of other software.


That's an awfully bold position to take.

True for Textmate - but that was just one example. There will be a lot more. As for a bold statement? I don't think so. Honestly I'm just looking at why people moved to XP, why many will eventually move to Vista; why people moved from one OS X release to another. Look at the past 10 years of OS releases - its not bold. Its just what's happened before and common knowledge.

I am NOT saying you'll buy Leopard the moment it hits the shelves. ButI am saying you will buy it (whether as part of a new computer or in a box) based on the above. And for you to buy it in a box it really comes down to applications.

The way the last paragraph of the previous post was worded, it sounded like you were saying that that individual will update the OS solely because of the third party software, and that looked pretty bold to me. I don't think it's the apps that drive most of the OS updates for most people, but simply new/replaced machines. I am fairly certain this is the case with your Windows updates, it takes a few years for the newest version to get to a dominant installed base. It's a little less of an issue with OS X because the OS upgrade cost is lower, but I still think it is still largely an update that largely happens because of the need for a machine replacement.

I do agree that the transition is going to happen eventually, there may have some disagreement (or disagreement based on confusion) on why the update will take place. The person you responded to already suggested that they most likely will get it when the current machine is replaced.

That would mean that any internal builds that have those "secret" functions would be even buggier than the ones outside developers see.

Anyway, some of those features have already come out.

Yeah, well, those of us who have been saying this, have been battered by those who want it as soon as possible. We seem to be destroying their dream.

Can you come up with any logical reason why Apple would do that with this? Now that Vista is out, it no longer matters. We are talking about a few months, at most. Once it's out, everyone will see it. There's just no point in concealing anything to make it look worse than it already is, in the builds.

I agree with you here.

Ah, you beat me to it!

I think what he means is that until (and unless) Apple says that it's being pushed backofficially, then we can assume it's on schedule.

We're used to "Mac" as a company name being used by trolls. Nothing personal, but if you learn the conventions, then people won't comment on the ones you use.

You have no better foundation to your assumptions.

Software development always costs more, and takes longer. A year ago, jobs said that 10.5 would be out around the end of the year, or so. Apple has already pushed it back.

No, it will not be. Apple has made that very clear.

Er.. the platypus is *not* extinct... just so you know :-O

Well, you're making a pretty sweeping assumption there about the "top secret" features, aren't you?


What? Just like 10.3 and 10.4 didn't ship with serious bugs on first release? Oh wait they did.

Thank you. Ive lurked for quite some time now!

Vistas biggest problems will be resolved with timemostly usability concernsand it will become easier to use, I imagine, when they tone down the security features. Its biggest problem, resource usage, probably wont be resolved any time soon. More than anything else this makes upgrading to Vista pretty impracticaland usually means you would have been better off with a new XP machine at this time. Well just have to see what happens! Either way, Im perfectly content with my lovely Mac OS.

I imagine Leopard will hit the shelves with some bugsthat it will be buggier than Tiger. This is pretty normal for them (and is actually to be expected from any program this complicated, including apps like Photoshop and Dreamweaver), but they also have a wonderful trackrecord of fixing issues quickly once it is on consumer computers. In honesty speed and reliability are the most interesting features for me. Apple doesnt charge much for OS upgrades (compared to, say, Microsoft) so it balances out.

Not sure what I think of the Apple TV yet! I dont know how well it works with non-HD televisions. Apple hasnt discussed that much either. Between this, and other HD products like the PS3 and the XBox 360, I wonder just how many people out there really have HD TVs to enjoy? Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what ol Jobs can do to make entertainment in your living room fun and excitingto make sure it just works.


Not going to happen, Im afraid. Clones were among the first things Jobs wanted to kill when he took over for his second reign. The reason is simple. Microsoft, for example, answers to all these hardware companiesHP, Gateway, Toshiba, Sonyand has very little control over how new features are implemented. In addition, having a computer full of third party products creates a less user-friendly experience and a comparatively unstable OS. Apple delivers a superior user experience because they control both the hardware and the software. Also, it is from the hardware that Apple makes money. If they opened the OS to clones this would hurt them (as it did when the company was suffering).


Theatrics, of course. Lets face itthose among us that are obsessed enough with Apple products to minutely examine the pre-release builds are going to buy Apple software regardless. Upon release were not going to say, man, they werent honest with the pre-release builds so Im going to boycott Apple! Well make our decision based on features and usefulness and, odds are, unless were short on money well wind up upgrading at some point anyway. I wonder how many people in this forum still use 10.3?

Apple need only present to the standard consumer.

I think many of you guys need to watch the Mac OS X State of Union video.

Go to http://developer.apple.com/ and sign-up for for the free ADC Online Membership (If you haven't already.) Then go to http://developer.apple.com/adconitunes/ and log-in. If everything goes well, iTunes will open-up a secret section of the iTunes store with some videos available. Download the "Session 000 - Mac OS X State of the Union" video.

Many interesting tidbits can be found about Leopard in this video that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere.

There's a nice demo that shows that Core Animation will bring concrete improvement to the UI. It's certainly more than an easy way to access OpenGL. The demo shows how easy you can create a grid of picture elements (for a picture album) that will smoothly rearrange itself according to the sort-order if you remove, add or rename an element for example. Core Animation in this case will take care of automatically animate thumbnails moving around to their new location (reminds me of the Nintendo Wii photo album grid view).

Then, there's a part where they discuss the transition to Resolution Independence. Personally I think many people underestimate what it means.

First it means that Apple has to vectorize every UI elements. They'll have to modernize and reorganize the UI back-end, which despite some visual changes over the years, has been stuck in a very archaic Extras.rsrc resource file, dating back to the ResEdit days. Leopard hopefully will replace the Extras.rsrc file with something more modern and modular. While they are doing this they might as well make some big change in the UI look itself, or at least unify the interface.

Currently, the Extras.rsrc file has to contain 2 sets of bitmaps, one for the Aqua/Blue elements, and the other for the Graphite theme. With vector elements, this wont be needed as it's trivial to re-color vector images. But then why stop at two themes? Why not give the user the ability to re-color the whole interface to suit their mood? Maybe you could optionally tie the color of the interface to outside temperature? Or make a window glow in red when it requires your attention? Tons of new possibilities will be opened by the move to Resolution Independence.

I've seen many comments saying that Apple won't change the UI because we would've known by now because of the time required for developers to make the transition to a new UI.

Here's what Apple says to developers regarding Res-independence.



Be ready by 2008? Hopefully that doesn't mean Leopard will be pushed back to 2008...

I'm not sure what it means though, will we see cosmetic glitches with apps that are not ready by Leopard's launch?

If anyone has a theory about this "Be ready by 2008" statement, I'd like to hear it.

If problems occur because of the transition to RI, Apple will have to show us that it's worth the pain. I expect Apple/Jobs to make a nice demo showing how nice it looks, and how useful it can be.

While many seem to regard RI as simply a way to keep a constant UI size with high-resolution monitors, it will have other uses. Note that the slider in Quartz-Debug not only shows DPIs, but also the magnification factor.

The ability to blow-up the UI elements to a huge size will be pushed as a feature, not as a side-effect of mismatching the DPI of your monitor. Pros will care about setting the right DPI amount, while others, like people with mild to severe vision problems will see that as a God-send. And no the Universal Access Zoom feature doesn't cut it for now, and setting an LCD screen to an intermediate resolution is a clunky solution that result in distorted images.

That we won't see any displays > 150 ppi until then?

In a word? No.

Why? Apple would have a support nightmare on his hands if every Tom Dick and Harry was installing OS X on his latest 1337 rig. Driver support has been simpler for Apple due to the fact it keeps a tight rein on hardware.

Having said that, I think it would be far more likely that Apple would partner with a PC maker first to offer the option. As OS X demands EFI it would only be a subset of hardware that it would be able to support, and it would be easier for Apple to provide the OS as an OEM install to that PC maker; then the PC maker could worry about ensuring it was installed on hardware that had the correct support.

FWIW, Apple has always stated that they could care less if you get it running on your 1337 rig. They just don't want to know about it.

Take the poll and find out!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=72388

Like I said you don't need ultra high-res monitor for resolution independence to be useful.

I know a few people that find current interface elements to be too small on current 96 dpi monitors when they're set at the native res. Some screens on current Apple notebooks are even higher than 96 dpi. The Mac OS still assumes that your display is 72 dpi, even though all monitors sold today have a higher pixel density.

Yes it does. Microsoft doesn't charge anything for their OS upgrades. XP was released in 2001 and that license could be upgraded to SP2 and beyond cost free. Apple charges ~US$129 for each upgrade. Cheetah was released in 2001 as well and each subsequent upgrade (Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger) requires a new license (with the exceptions mentioned by others above). So if I bought a Mac with Cheetah and skipped Puma I would still have paid ~US$400 for the other three upgrades vs zero for the XP upgrades. I'm not defending Microsoft, just pointing out the truth.

Except you are comparing Apples and Oranges. XP service packs are not equivalent to 10.x "upgrades". They are closer to 10.x.y upgrades, which are also free.

kukito's right. All this nonsense about how much Vista cost?

I got it for free. I don't know what people were talking about.

kukito was talking about service packs, which usually isn't the same thing as a system upgrade. For the most part, service packs fix bugs.

If you have Vista legitimately, then its cost is factored into something else. Maybe your employer or educational institution paid for it. If you bought a new computer, the cost of Vista is factored into the total, they just don't show you the itemization.

I have Vista sarcastically.

Interesting Forum here - I love it! I just want to say that Leopard will be worth the wait. From what I have seen of it - its very seamless and smooth. Granted there will be some bugs but Apple is NOT going to make the same mistake that MicroSquish did. The other day I was in Best Buy and copies of XP were still selling faster than Vista. In fact someone mentioned that XP was outselling Vista 4 to 1, if not that, greater.

I am still kicking myself for not investing in Apple 10 years ago.

I was planning on buying a MacBook Pro in April when I thought it was go ing to be out, but I will just buy an upgrade when it arrives.

I hadn't thought of that, my mistake.

Yup.


BS. There was nothing that terribly wrong with 10.3 or 10.4. A few minor annoyances bubbled up to the surface for some people. Big deal. I was a Mac consultant and a member of Apple Consultants Network (used to be Apple Solutions Expert) back then and I don't recall having to deal with anything major.

I think Leopard will be out on or before WWDC or between May 19 and June 9. Yeah, I think it'll be in stores on a Saturday. I also think the iPhone will also be available right after Leopard ships. Apple says June. Since the iPhone uses Leopard, what does that suggest?

O.K. maybe I exaggerated with 10.4, but 10.3.0 had a firewire bug that caused data loss (there was a firewire 400 bug, and an even worse Firewire 800 bug, whereby just connecting the drive to the Mac could hose the whole drive). That is a serious bug.

No it hasn't. They said Spring '07, which ends in June.

Or simply provide higher resolution (Apple says 4x) artwork. You do not have to use vectors, and I doubt Apple will for most of the OS. They're good for little symbols and stuff but not good for complex, lickable widgets.


You're not honestly telling me you think Windows service packs are equivalent to MacOS x.1 upgrades? They're more like x.x.1 upgrades, which are free!

SP2 offered very little to existing Microsoft customers. it was primarily a security upgrade, but it was not a noteworthy feature upgrade. I would not consider it the sort of major upgrade users should be expected to pay for, but Microsoft has charged for things such as this in the past. More to the point, Macintosh users did not need to upgrade every OS increment. A user of 10.2 could upgrade to 10.4 and skip 10.3 entirely. It is a choice. So youve got Microsoft, going many years from XP to Vista with no noteworthy upgrades, and Apple, progressing significantly in steps. Theres no reason why your single $129 upgrade shouldnt be comparable to the excessive cost of Vista Ultimate.

Guess I should have made one thing more clear in my original post. Apple stripping features from the OS is what created a lot of the current bugs. Try taking any software and dropping major features and subsets of the code out of it and see what problems it will create. From a programatic standpoint, Apple keeping its "secrets" under wraps is THE major reason that we see the bugs in the developer releases.

You're making that up.