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Rap: Stick a fork in it

post #1 of 57
Thread Starter 
No top ten for you!

While I have no doubt that there are still innovative rappers and rap groups out there doing great music and also doing positive music, but as a genre, as a whole, it is played out and done. We are now on the third cousin of the third cousin having a record deal. You can practically spit out the lyrics to the songs before they are released, even if you have never heard them before.

This is a good thing in my book for a couple reasons. First rap has pretty much killed R&B and turned it into some sort of "adult contemporary" nonsense. What sort of sad planet do we live on where Justin Timberlake is a R&B singer? How sad is it that the concept of a black pop performer is pretty much foreign and when they do happen to get played, they have to "rent-a-rapper" in order to be urban enough?

It is neat to see a new genre added, but sad when that genre becomes all encompassing. Most young black people I know listen to absolutely nothing BUT rap. I can find a huge array of music among my hispanic friends, from rock en espanol, to banda to great mixes of loads of different styles. However the black music scene has boiled itself down to rap and whoever R. Kelly, or Beyonce, Rhianna, copycats to be named later happens to sing with.

Thoughts?

Nick

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post #2 of 57
I think rap has a good place so long as they rap about...something. Lately the rap scene has dwindled itself down to talking about how much the rappers love to have sex, spend money, and party. Yawn.

Eminem actually had some promise, but I got tired of hearing him whine about his personal life.

I bought Fort Minor's album "The Rising Tied" last year and have been pretty pleased with it. At least there's some substance to it. Sure, the first track is a "this is who we are" kind of thing, but all artists need one of those. The rest of the album is tight, including a song featuring John Legend.
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post #3 of 57
Pop music is shallow. What a revelation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You can practically spit out the lyrics to the songs before they are released, even if you have never heard them before.

Welcome to pop music.
Quote:
How sad is it that the concept of a black pop performer is pretty much foreign

WTF does skin color have to do with it?
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Most young black people I know listen to absolutely nothing BUT rap.

The same can be said about millions of white, asian, indian and arab young people on every continent.
Quote:
However the black music scene

The "black music scene" is exaggeration through marketing. While black artists make up the largest ethnic group in popular hip hop, there has never been a shortage of non-black producers, rappers, singers, djs, b-boys or graff artists, and in some of those disciplines blacks are a minority. In fact, even today many of the biggest pop rap tracks are produced or performed by artists who aren't black, even though the pop industry is heavily skewed toward black artists. It only gets more diverse as you look past the pop acts. Non-pop hip hop is extremely diverse in style and there doesn't seem to be any dominant ethnicity.

Furthermore, even though people like to pretend that there is such a thing as "black music," often the only difference between a black artist and any other artist is skin color. If Beyonce, Christina Aguilera and/or Nelly Furtado swapped ethnicities no one listening to their music would notice.

As for the audience, they are just like any other typical pop music audience.
post #4 of 57
It always disturbs me how easily Nick slips into over generalizations about racial groups other than his own...
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post #5 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

It always disturbs me how easily Nick slips into over generalizations about racial groups other than his own...

You guys just don't quit, do you?
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post #6 of 57
its not all bad - we need more music like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuh-VylQy9s
post #7 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You guys just don't quit, do you?

Is my statement false?
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post #8 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Is my statement false?

Actually yes it is false.

giant to his credit, did what I asked. His thoughts were given and though he disagrees with me very strongly, he didn't have to take the thread and somehow make it about me.

You added nothing and show exactly why the /ignore list is your domain.

Nick

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post #9 of 57
At my high school it appears to me that Nick is right to a point. The flaw is that a majority of people, not just one minority, only listen to rap or R&B.
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post #10 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Actually yes it is false.

giant to his credit, did what I asked. His thoughts were given and though he disagrees with me very strongly, he didn't have to take the thread and somehow make it about me.

You added nothing and show exactly why the /ignore list is your domain.

Nick

Do you actually believe that you don't generalize about people of [enter sex, sexuality, race, ethnicity differing from your own]?

I have a new purpose in life... to point out everytime you do it... (not really, but it wouldn't be hard at all)...
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post #11 of 57
I find it weird that people get worked up at all about what music anyone prefers.

Live and let live, I say. People can listen to whatever music they want. I could care less, and care less what people think it reveals/says/whatever about society etc.
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post #12 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Do you actually believe that you don't generalize about people of [enter sex, sexuality, race, ethnicity differing from your own]?

I have a new purpose in life... to point out everytime you do it... (not really, but it wouldn't be hard at all)...

Enjoy your new purpose.

Now try commenting on the topic of the thread instead of on me. Try PM's if you feel the need to speak to me about what I do instead of about the topic of the thread.

Thanks,

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #13 of 57
Why rap?

Why not polka?

Music preferences change. The most popular stuff is vapid, much like the people buying it.

Rap has changed the music industry and its musical DNA has spread into other genres... It will fade like polka into the woodwork, certainly, but its positive and negative effects will be lasting...
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post #14 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Do you actually believe that you don't generalize about people of [enter sex, sexuality, race, ethnicity differing from your own]?

What's so bad about generalization? As long as we realize that exceptions can exist, there's no harm in it. Generalization is a completely sensical child of observation. Generalization is, in fact, rational and scientific. Pointing out that the rap on the radio is extremely homogenous and that the young black folks that Nick knows listen exclusively to rap may be generalizations, but they do no harm.

In the 50's, McCarthy-ism made everyone afraid of being accused as a communist. Now, there's a certain world-view that has succeeded in making everyone afraid of being accused as a racist or a "generalizer." What a bunch of idiots.
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post #15 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

What's so bad about generalization? As long as we realize that exceptions can exist, there's no harm in it. Generalization is a completely sensical child of observation. Generalization is, in fact, rational and scientific. Pointing out that the rap on the radio is extremely homogenous and that the young black folks that Nick knows listen exclusively to rap may be generalizations, but they do no harm.

In the 50's, McCarthy-ism made everyone afraid of being accused as a communist. Now, there's a certain world-view that has succeeded in making everyone afraid of being accused as a racist or a "generalizer." What a bunch of idiots.

No spliney.

It isn't simply about making generalizations, it is making generalizations WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

That is a problem.

Further, if you want to make the comparison to McCarthyism.....It was the GENERALIZATION that LIBERALS and SOCIALISTS were tacit supporters of the Soviets that caused it to be successful and not some fear of being accused...

Where do you get your bullshit?
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post #16 of 57
ANyway, I've always detested RAP/hiphop/r&b music and wont be sorry if theres a backlash against it. IMO its the biggest pile of talentless crap, both musically and artistically ever. There are a couple of tracks I like - but thats really it, just 2 or 3.

And then theres the groups of 14 year old twats who hang around town with their hoodies giving everyone grief trying to act like they're 25 year old thugs - with all the furious hand movements they use that makes them look like cripples on a sugar overdose.
post #17 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It is neat to see a new genre added, but sad when that genre becomes all encompassing.

Isn't that the same for just about any new music genre, though? As soon as it has caught on enough as to be popular, the majority of new releases will be meaningless superficiality?

This doesn't seem to me as something specific to rap, and therefore not something that discredits rap in particular.

The real problem is that the majors fail to (or downright refuse to) push truly creative artists, as they know very well that they wouldn't sell as much.
post #18 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

Isn't that the same for just about any new music genre, though? As soon as it has caught on enough as to be popular, the majority of new releases will be meaningless superficiality?

This doesn't seem to me as something specific to rap, and therefore not something that discredits rap in particular.

The real problem is that the majors fail to (or downright refuse to) push truly creative artists, as they know very well that they wouldn't sell as much.

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying rap is any different from say... hair bands in the late 80's. In fact what I am putting across is that rap is EXACTLY like hair bands in the late 80's. Something new is going to come along soon and sweep away the 95% garbage that is being put out now and replace it with something new.

I've not tried to discredit rap and I have enjoyed quite a bit of it over the years. Sadly I don't get to enjoy as much music of any genre as a 36 year old man as I did when I was say, a 16 year old kid. Those are the realities of changing priorities as you get older though. I spend more time following the stock market than say, the top 40 charts for a half dozen different genres.

Also as the market for everything has exploded and become more fragmented, it becomes even harder to follow. Take cartoons for example, when I was growing up you had Hanna Barbara, Warner Bros and Disney which pretty much the U.S. domestic market. (Though some of us were getting very much into anime which was exciting, new and very different back then.)

Now I couldn't even tell you which cartoons my kids watch across the 10 channels that offer 24 hour a day programming. I mean I'm sure marketing has beat a few names into my head and I'm sure those names would be deemed "crap" by current cartoon-o-philes.

"The majors" have never been anything more than copycat shoe salesmen. Whatever happens to hit the iron hot next, they assuredly will sign whatever 20 acts most resemble the current hit maker. This is a good and bad phenomenon because it will help get rid of whatever needs to leave as well. All the majors will rush on to the next big thing.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying rap is any different from say... hair bands in the late 80's. In fact what I am putting across is that rap is EXACTLY like hair bands in the late 80's. Something new is going to come along soon and sweep away the 95% garbage that is being put out now and replace it with something new.

Agreed.

Quote:
I've not tried to discredit rap and I have enjoyed quite a bit of it over the years. Sadly I don't get to enjoy as much music of any genre as a 36 year old man as I did when I was say, a 16 year old kid. Those are the realities of changing priorities as you get older though. I spend more time following the stock market than say, the top 40 charts for a half dozen different genres.

I wouldn't know.

Quote:
Also as the market for everything has exploded and become more fragmented, it becomes even harder to follow. Take cartoons for example, when I was growing up you had Hanna Barbara, Warner Bros and Disney which pretty much the U.S. domestic market. (Though some of us were getting very much into anime which was exciting, new and very different back then.)

Now I couldn't even tell you which cartoons my kids watch across the 10 channels that offer 24 hour a day programming. I mean I'm sure marketing has beat a few names into my head and I'm sure those names would be deemed "crap" by current cartoon-o-philes.

*nod*

I think it's simply that everything becomes commoditized at a point. To make it more suitable for the masses, you have to water it down in quality, and it goes without saying that the specialty/uniqueness value fades as well.

Quote:
"The majors" have never been anything more than copycat shoe salesmen.

Prolly.

Quote:
Whatever happens to hit the iron hot next, they assuredly will sign whatever 20 acts most resemble the current hit maker. This is a good and bad phenomenon because it will help get rid of whatever needs to leave as well. All the majors will rush on to the next big thing.

Still, I'd like to see more of an opportunity for decidedly unpopular music/cartoons/whatever to become available to everyone interested in it. I think efforts such as Creative Commons could help a lot with this, though it remains hard to find true quality.

Meanwhile, you can assume everything discussed on the mainstream media to be yesteryear's news.
post #20 of 57
Women and negroes, when will they learn to make conservative white male America happy!?!?
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post #21 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

ANyway, I've always detested RAP/hiphop/r&b music and wont be sorry if theres a backlash against it. IMO its the biggest pile of talentless crap, both musically and artistically ever. There are a couple of tracks I like - but thats really it, just 2 or 3.

And then theres the groups of 14 year old twats who hang around town with their hoodies giving everyone grief trying to act like they're 25 year old thugs - with all the furious hand movements they use that makes them look like cripples on a sugar overdose.

Agree with this 100%. I would personally rather listen to a troupe of lobotomized flatulent gorillas let loose in a recording studio with a castrated orang-utang on MDMA on the mixing desk...oh....wait......

I think Keef said it best when he said there were three types of music he despised and which should be expunged from history and that they all coincidentally began with the letter C: Classical, Country and Rap......
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post #22 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Women and negroes, when will they learn to make conservative white male America happy!?!?

Leave your personal life out of this okay?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #23 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying rap is any different from say... hair bands in the late 80's. In fact what I am putting across is that rap is EXACTLY like hair bands in the late 80's. Something new is going to come along soon and sweep away the 95% garbage that is being put out now and replace it with something new.

Nick

No way. Rap music will be here for the next 200 years. It's like french fries. It is cheap and requires little skill to produce and sell. The people who listen to rap will listen to anything since maybe 2% of all rap created after 1995 has any artistic merit anyway.

The last 10 years of rap music is basically "coolness and danger" in a can. There's nothing about it that really has any danger about it but kids like to play the part. If millions of teens have been fooled by this crap for the last 10 years, then there will always be money to be made.
post #24 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindler View Post

No way. Rap music will be here for the next 200 years. It's like french fries. It is cheap and requires little skill to produce and sell. The people who listen to rap will listen to anything since maybe 2% of all rap created after 1995 has any artistic merit anyway.

I declare you this week's King Of Generalizations.

Congrats.
post #25 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Agree with this 100%. I would personally rather listen to a troupe of lobotomized flatulent gorillas let loose in a recording studio with a castrated orang-utang on MDMA on the mixing desk...oh....wait......

I think Keef said it best when he said there were three types of music he despised and which should be expunged from history and that they all coincidentally began with the letter C: Classical, Country and Rap......

Keef - true, true, but the scoring of Clockwork Orange was pretty cool.
post #26 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

I declare you this week's King Of Generalizations.

Congrats.

Now Chucker, hardy is the generalization monitor. Don't take his job or else he will be upset.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #27 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Now Chucker, hardy is the generalization monitor. Don't take his job or else he will be upset.

Nick

I have nothing to get upset about. I am only the master of the obvious and others are perfectly able to see what is in black and white, or grey as the case may be...
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post #28 of 57
I'll probably get flamed for this but IMO rap isn't music.
Why?
It's a story with no real contens cause it's always about money, cars, sex & parties.

Too much lyrics push away the music, where it is about no?

I always think, if U wanna tell a real story U should write a book, if U want to make music U make music, if U wanna make rap U brag about things and put a lame beat on it...

It's all about taste i guess, but the media is so wrong to push such a small variety of music styles.
It's the media's fault that rap became so big. A lot of rap industries became wealthy selling drugs, so they could buy themselves 'air time' on the tv, now is that good education for our kids?

Other people will have other conclusions which is perfectly normal, this is mine.

Greetz
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post #29 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Is my statement false?

Yes. And knee-jerk too. Rap is performed by mostly young black men. It's listened to by a wider group, but I would venture to guess it is predominently young black men. It is what it is.
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post #30 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

No spliney.

It isn't simply about making generalizations, it is making generalizations WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

That is a problem.

Further, if you want to make the comparison to McCarthyism.....It was the GENERALIZATION that LIBERALS and SOCIALISTS were tacit supporters of the Soviets that caused it to be successful and not some fear of being accused...

Where do you get your bullshit?

First off, I don't see that there's this "problem" today where people are making sweeping generalizations and this act is causing damage. I just don't see that it happens. Furthermore, Nick was quite explicit in mentioning his sample -- all the young black folks he knows.

Is this really the best you can do? McCarthyism wasn't about generalization, it was a crusade comprised of mostly lies for the purpose of furthering the agenda of a power-hungry group. I see the contemporary liberal agenda having the same basic ire -- you're going to try to crucify whoever you disagree with by contrived claims of "generalization," "racism," or "intolerance." Where McCarthyism made people afraid to speak-up about their political opinions, modern liberals are doing the same exact thing with political correctness. For a white male, any comment that touches on culture is taboo, and if I make one I can expect that and least one brainwashed dolt is going to try to hang me with it. In this respect, there's a common thread between these two nadirs of recent american social history.

But, oh wait a minute. . . To make those observations I had to generalize. The human race is doomed.
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post #31 of 57
No spliney.

Feel free to discuss your politics, but if it REQUIRES you to make generalizations, then you are a closed minded fool... But of course since you can't seem to fathom such a discourse, you already reveal such feeble mindedness.

Generalizations are lies by and by...

I seriously doubt that all of the young blacks Nick knows listen to rap exclusively. I just don't think his personal crusade to discover the musical tastes of his sample group is all that rigorous. Did he actually do a survey or is he basing this on his perception? Since Nick isn't known for his factual accuracy, my bet would be its his perception when he needed to make a point...
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post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by drazztikka View Post

I'll probably get flamed for this but IMO rap isn't music.
Why?

Because you happen not to like it.

Quote:
I always think, if U wanna tell a real story U should write a book, if U want to make music U make music, if U wanna make rap U brag about things and put a lame beat on it...

And 'if U wanna' make a point, you shouldn't write like you're on some AOL chat room.

Quote:
A lot of rap industries became wealthy selling drugs, so they could buy themselves 'air time' on the tv, now is that good education for our kids?

What is a "rap industry", what do they have to do with drugs, and how do they "buy themselves air time"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Generalizations are lies by and by...

Stereotypes exist because there is always some truth to them.
post #33 of 57
I don't usually go tit-for-tat. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

No spliney.

Feel free to discuss your politics, but if it REQUIRES you to make generalizations, then you are a closed minded fool... But of course since you can't seem to fathom such a discourse, you already reveal such feeble mindedness.

I have been discoursing for two or three posts. Is this your way of giving up by calling me a closed-minded fool?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Generalizations are lies by and by...

No. Generalizations are statistical conclusions. By the nature of statistics, this means generalizations are neither truth nor lie. They are gray. But unless the practitioner didn't do his homework, generalizations will always be more true than untrue. If you are curious about the study of statistics, I can recommend textbooks for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

I seriously doubt that all of the young blacks Nick knows listen to rap exclusively. ...

What if it is true? You are making generalizations based on your previous experiences with Nick. Of course, I realize that without the ability to make generalizations the human mind is worthless, and am willing to consider that possibility. Why aren't you willing to consider the possibility that political correctness may be counter-productive? Before you try to defend yourself by picking apart word structure in my posts, think about it, honestly. There are pundits out there who think that I must be wasting my time because they claim liberals are incapable of rational thinking. Prove them wrong.
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post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by drazztikka View Post

I'll probably get flamed for this but IMO rap isn't music.
Why?

The reasons you cite have absolutely nothing to do with the definition of music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yes. And knee-jerk too. Rap is performed by mostly young black men.

Perhaps, but if so then it's more like a 60% majority than a 90% one. The blackness of hip hop is exaggerated. For example, out of the most prolific hit hip hop producers in recent years (neptunes, scott storch, timbaland, missy elliot) who are responsible for virtually all of the top hip hop tracks of the 00's, 3 are black, 1 is white and 1 is fillipino. When you move away from pop it only gets more diverse. The lines between hip hop and other genres (particularly electronica and rock) blur considerably, even when looking at the top producers named above, all of whom produce as many hits for pop and R&B stars like britney spears as they do for pop rappers like 50 Cent.
Quote:
It's listened to by a wider group, but I would venture to guess it is predominently young black men.

The pop rap audience is actually overwhelmingly white in the US. Feel free to do at least minimal research before forming opinions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

I seriously doubt that all of the young blacks Nick knows listen to rap exclusively. I just don't think his personal crusade to discover the musical tastes of his sample group is all that rigorous. Did he actually do a survey or is he basing this on his perception? Since Nick isn't known for his factual accuracy, my bet would be its his perception when he needed to make a point...

Well, considering his california desert town is 90% white and 0.63% black and the demographic makeup is likely similar for 20 miles in any direction, I'm not sure whatever sample he's using is remotely relevant.
post #35 of 57
C Rap
C Rap Die
Die Rap Die
We C Rap Die

My opinion, the better Rappers - Old School were so much better than today's rap. Fat Boys, LL Cool J, Will Smith to name a few. They did Rap for FUN - not to promote violence and indulge youth in gangs.

My two cents - keep the change.
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post #36 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Well, considering his california desert town is 90% white and 0.63% black and the demographic makeup is likely similar for 20 miles in any direction, I'm not sure whatever sample he's using is remotely relevant.

I don't believe I've listed that as my location for a while now because I moved over a year ago.

That said, the area where we live, often called the Pass Area or region has undergone tremendous growth.

You wanted to make claims from digging into what you claim is my person background so start posting up the numbers.

First I work in Moreno Valley.

The city in which I live in Beaumont, CA.
The surrounding cities are Banning, Calimesa, and Cabazon.

If you want to cover the full 20 miles, I would suggest you add Redlands, San Bernardino and Moreno Valley as well into those profiles you are going to pull up.

Have fun.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The city in which I live in Beaumont, CA.

Sorry. 2.91% black.
Quote:
The surrounding cities are Banning, Calimesa, and Cabazon.

Looks like banning is the only one above 1%
Quote:
If you want to cover the full 20 miles, I would suggest you add Redlands,

16 miles away, 4.31% black
Quote:
San Bernardino

25 miles away, 16% black
Quote:
and Moreno Valley as well into those profiles you are going to pull up.

18 miles, 20% black

So what that supposed to prove my statement incorrect?
post #38 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Sorry. 2.91% black.

Looks like banning is the only one above 1%

16 miles away, 4.31% black

25 miles away, 16% black

18 miles, 20% black

So what that supposed to prove my statement incorrect?

You made a statement? I thought you simply dismissed as you always do. Find your statement and I'm sure we can address it. From what I read you simply declared I wasn't "relevant." However I also guess you are right that 20% must be 1% since Moreno Valley is within 20 miles in any direction.

Is your view that unless you live in a majority black community you can't possibly know a black person? What is it you are trying to say? You note the city in which I work is 20% black and yet dismiss it. What number is large enough for one to know a reasonable number of black people for you?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #39 of 57
Let's use the time machine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

I seriously doubt that all of the young blacks Nick knows listen to rap exclusively. I just don't think his personal crusade to discover the musical tastes of his sample group is all that rigorous. Did he actually do a survey or is he basing this on his perception? Since Nick isn't known for his factual accuracy, my bet would be its his perception when he needed to make a point...

Well, considering his california desert town is 90% white and 0.63% black and the demographic makeup is likely similar for 20 miles in any direction, I'm not sure whatever sample he's using is remotely relevant.
post #40 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Let's use the time machine...

So now would you like to make a statement instead of just attempting an insulting inference?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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