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Rap: Stick a fork in it - Page 2

post #41 of 57
3/5/07 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

The reasons you cite have absolutely nothing to do with the definition of music.

Perhaps, but if so then it's more like a 60% majority than a 90% one. The blackness of hip hop is exaggerated. For example, out of the most prolific hit hip hop producers in recent years (neptunes, scott storch, timbaland, missy elliot) who are responsible for virtually all of the top hip hop tracks of the 00's, 3 are black, 1 is white and 1 is fillipino. When you move away from pop it only gets more diverse. The lines between hip hop and other genres (particularly electronica and rock) blur considerably, even when looking at the top producers named above, all of whom produce as many hits for pop and R&B stars like britney spears as they do for pop rappers like 50 Cent.

The pop rap audience is actually overwhelmingly white in the US. Feel free to do at least minimal research before forming opinions.

Well, considering his california desert town is 90% white and 0.63% black and the demographic makeup is likely similar for 20 miles in any direction, I'm not sure whatever sample he's using is remotely relevant.



OK, but it's still a majority. What's the problem? Secondly, so I was wrong about the audience. That's why I labeled it a "guess." That's what one does when one isn't sure about something.
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post #42 of 57
3/5/07 at 1:31pm
Thread Starter 
Actually giant didn't disprove anything I said about the audience because I never claimed the audience for rap was black majority or black exclusive. I said that the black youth I know listen to rap exclusively. This does not preclude other groups from listening to rap or even from being the largest audience for rap.

His handwaving about the racial make up of producers, artists, etc also have nothing to do with what I have put forth. They are nice distractions, but have nothing to do with what I put forth. They might be a nice bit of conjecture about why rap has become so stale since the very large majority of rap albums sold and charts show a clear homogeniality in their racial make-up even though the practitioners do not. However all that would show is that racism, even when it is reverse racism harms whatever it touches. If he would like to share that thought, instead of wandering around and dismissing everyone as stupid, ignorant, racist, out of touch or whatever else it is he is trying to put across, it would be a welcome change.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #43 of 57
3/5/07 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

OK, but it's still a majority.

What's a majority? Producers? Djs? Rappers? I'm sure I have infinitely more of a connection to popular and underground hip hop than you and yet I couldn't say what ethnic group has a majority or even if there is a majority ethnic group. And even if "african americans" are a larger group than any other, it doesn't necessarily mean they have a majority. And with hip hop artists becoming so eclectic, I'm not even sure where the genre boundaries are anymore. Which brings us to...
Quote:
Secondly, so I was wrong about the audience. That's why I labeled it a "guess."

Your "guess" is nothing more than expression of an uninformed prejudice, as is your statement about who makes the music.

Don't get me wrong. I don't fully blame you for your prejudices. Hip hop music is marketed as "black music," and it's not entirely inaccurate and certainly originated in the 70s and early 80s with groups of majority black artists. Unfortunately, we'd have to start a discussion of specific crews, eras and cities to have a real discussion about the numbers of people from different ethnic groups. Long story short, though, there sure were/are a whole, whole lot of whites, latinos, filipinos, etc driving hip hop culture on all levels.
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post #44 of 57
3/5/07 at 4:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

rap has become so stale

Your initial post started with a diatribe against qualities shared by most popular music, although you decided to single out "rap," then inexplicably became a rather unusual series of statements complaining about the "black music scene" overall, naming artists whose music is indistinguishable from other non-black pop stars.

Personally, I'm kind of curious why an exurban middle class man who admittedly doesn't listen to much music and lives in a region with almost no black people for miles thinks his anecdotal conjecture gives him enough knowledge to make blanket statements about the "black music scene."
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post #45 of 57
3/5/07 at 6:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Personally, I'm kind of curious why an exurban middle class man who admittedly doesn't listen to much music and lives in a region with almost no black people for miles thinks his anecdotal conjecture gives him enough knowledge to make blanket statements about the "black music scene."

Personally, I'm kind of curious about what mental disorder gives you this continual air of expertise and authority, no matter the topic and the ability to dismiss everyone else using nothing more than this "expertise." I mean you could have a different view or opinion, but you don't even express those. You just get off on telling everyone they are an idiot and consider yourself correct in whatever view you happen to hold (but never state) in a vacuum.

So be curious, your point isn't worth addressing because the only point you have made is that you think I'm not fit to have a view or opinion because of... well some criteria you dreamed up off the top of your head.

The article I linked to stated these very important things I like to call facts. They are true even if you are a exurban middle class white man.

Music sales overall are down, but rap sales in particular have dropped 21 percent from 2005 to 2006. For the first time in 12 years, the top ten best-selling albums of the year did not include a rap album.

So even though rap is another variant of popular music, the sales drop for it exceeds the other popular genres. Even though there are multiple genres of popular music, all basically variations on a theme with slightly different instrumentation, etc... rap is the only one that does not have an album in the top ten.

So before you reply again, please do at least one of the following. State a thought or opinion related to those facts. State a thought or opinion related to rap and its current state. Do not state any thought about me and why I am not fit to have thoughts.

Thanks,

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #46 of 57
3/5/07 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So before you reply again, please do at least one of the following. State a thought or opinion related to those facts. State a thought or opinion related to rap and its current state. Do not state any thought about me and why I am not fit to have thoughts.

If the liberal thought police started relying on substance, the universe would implode.
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post #47 of 57
3/5/07 at 11:34pm
I don't know where you're getting this information.

Eminem's greatest hits package was #6 in 2006. R&B/hip-hop artist Mary J. Blige was #5. While she's not exactly a "rap" artist, her albums do feature rap. Other hip-hop acts are present throughout the top 50. In 2005, Mariah Carey, 50 Cent, Black Eyed Peas, Kanye West, and The Game are all in the top 10. This year, Kanye West, 50 Cent, and Eminem are all set to release new albums-- all of which are pretty sure to crack the top 10. Sales might be down this year but I think it's premature to sound the death knell for a genre that seems otherwise ascendant.
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post #48 of 57
3/6/07 at 4:18am
Hip Hop won't die...there are too many people who enjoy doing it. What's going to happen is a purging of the crappy artists that should have never been signed and promoted. The music industry basically kept shoveling crap at people and watching to see just now much they would take. Well the backlash is here and I figure there'll be a lot of crappy artists with their knecks in the chopping block.

Thank God.
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post #49 of 57
3/6/07 at 5:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I don't know where you're getting this information.

Eminem's greatest hits package was #6 in 2006. R&B/hip-hop artist Mary J. Blige was #5. While she's not exactly a "rap" artist, her albums do feature rap. Other hip-hop acts are present throughout the top 50. In 2005, Mariah Carey, 50 Cent, Black Eyed Peas, Kanye West, and The Game are all in the top 10. This year, Kanye West, 50 Cent, and Eminem are all set to release new albums-- all of which are pretty sure to crack the top 10. Sales might be down this year but I think it's premature to sound the death knell for a genre that seems otherwise ascendant.

I linked to the information. You can ask where they are getting their information.

I would suspect that re-releases and greatest hits releases might be tracked overall and then there is the top 10 that tracks new music released. Mary J. Blige is not rap in my view, nor is Mariah Carey.

You do make some good points about 2005 versus 2006 and the upcoming 2007. I suspect those releases will help show whether this is a blip or a trend. Right now no one can say for sure but you added some nice previous successes we can track.

Thanks,
Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #50 of 57
3/6/07 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Hip Hop won't die...there are too many people who enjoy doing it. What's going to happen is a purging of the crappy artists that should have never been signed and promoted. The music industry basically kept shoveling crap at people and watching to see just now much they would take. Well the backlash is here and I figure there'll be a lot of crappy artists with their knecks in the chopping block.

Thank God.

I agree. Hip Hop is so much more diversified. Covers many more genres and styles. More originality too.

I don't know if this is relevant but watch this press conference with Jimi Hendrix. Done two weeks after Woodstock. He was struggling with his "black" image (or lack of one) and was trying to expand his music toward more black listeners. I think it was important to share it...miss this guy...

Jimi Hendrix Press Conference After Woodstock
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post #51 of 57
3/6/07 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The article I linked to stated these very important things I like to call facts. They are true even if you are a exurban middle class white man.

Music sales overall are down, but rap sales in particular have dropped 21 percent from 2005 to 2006. For the first time in 12 years, the top ten best-selling albums of the year did not include a rap album.

So two sentences in a six sentence news blurb with no citations making a couple of ultimately inaccurate statements about pop album sales are the basis for you blanket generalizations about the "black music scene." Oh, yeah, there's also your anecdotal experience as a white man who admittedly doesn't listen to much music and lives in a region with a minuscule black population. Whatever floats your boat.

Really, though, maybe the fact that the top singles of 2006 were absolutely dominated by hip hop and black artists and producers is evidence of a crisis in the "black music scene."
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post #52 of 57
3/6/07 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Really, though, maybe the fact that the top singles of 2006 are absolutely dominated by hip hop and black artists and producers is evidence of a crisis in the "black music scene."

Yeah, good point.

Hip-hop absolutely dominates the singles charts.
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post #53 of 57
3/6/07 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Oh, yeah, there's also your anecdotal experience as a white man who admittedly doesn't listen to much music and lives in a region with a minuscule black population. Whatever floats your boat.

I think Trumptmann's evidence goes beyond anecdotal. Let's say I work with 20 black people. When I put on rap or R&B they all listen and talk about whatever's going on on the scene. If I mention Duran Duran, Tool, or the Red Hot Chili Peppers no one joins the conversation. How much more statistical evidence do I need? 20 is a big sample.

Unless their is something unrepresentative about that smaple of 20 black people, why can't I conclude as a first guess that blacks mostly listen to rap and R&B? (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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post #54 of 57
3/6/07 at 7:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindler View Post

I think Trumptmann's evidence goes beyond anecdotal. Let's say I work with 20 black people. When I put on rap or R&B they all listen and talk about whatever's going on on the scene. If I mention Duran Duran, Tool, or the Red Hot Chili Peppers no one joins the conversation. How much more statistical evidence do I need? 20 is a big sample.

Unless their is something unrepresentative about that smaple of 20 black people, why can't I conclude as a first guess that blacks mostly listen to rap and R&B? (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Don't worry. giant will look at your location and promptly conclude that your point is of no relevance since there aren't enough black people living next to you. He will probably add that you are secretly a racist and couldn't even know 20 black people.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #55 of 57
3/7/07 at 8:17am
RIP you piece of shit. Baaaaaaahhhhhhh

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post #56 of 57
3/12/07 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindler View Post

I think Trumptmann's evidence goes beyond anecdotal. Let's say I work with 20 black people.

I really hope you realize that's exactly what anecdotal means.
Quote:
Unless their is something unrepresentative about that smaple of 20 black people

Apparently there is, since that doesn't remotely reflect the tastes of people I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

giant will look at your location and promptly conclude that your point is of no relevance since there aren't enough black people living next to you.

Interesting. You know what? Don't use personal anecdotes as supporting evidence for your arguments if you can't deal with people examining what they are based on.
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post #57 of 57
3/12/07 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Interesting. You know what? Don't use personal anecdotes as supporting evidence for your arguments if you can't deal with people examining what they are based on.

Sadly perhaps now you can see the terrible logic you use.

I didn't present my anecdotal evidence as proof of raps decline. Quite the opposite. I stated that every black youth I know listens to rap almost exclusively. My anecdotal experience thus was in support of rap music sales. However I used sales figures to chart the possible decline of rap music sales.

You discredited the sales figures because of who I am and where I live.

Quote:
Oh, yeah, there's also your anecdotal experience as a white man who admittedly doesn't listen to much music and lives in a region with a minuscule black population. Whatever floats your boat.

You didn't like the figures but you never disproved them. You attacked the messenger in an attempt to discredit the message. You do this often and should stop. Where I live and how many black people I know has nothing to do with cd sales. If you were attempting to assert something, you would see this but all you do is believe you are right because you have declared or "proven" someone else wrong using your own self selected criteria which is of no relevance. Here your self selected criteria is what percentage of black people I happen to live around. Can you show how in any fashion this affects cd sales and my ability to read a chart of cd sales?

As for why they declined, I'm entitled my opinion about it and since there isn't an objective means of determining the decline, my opinion is just as valid as yours.

Try to remember that in the future and enjoy the last word in your response. I'm done with this.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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