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National ID Card Rules Unveiled

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
http://www.wired.com/news/technology...=wn_politics_2

http://www.securityinfowatch.com/onl...on/10646SIW320

Homeland Security is getting out of hand. When is it going to stop. Hopefully all states will fight this.

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Gemany and France do not have national ID cards. I think they still remember Hitler. Maybe our government does not.
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post #2 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...=wn_politics_2

http://www.securityinfowatch.com/onl...on/10646SIW320

Homeland Security is getting out of hand. When is it going to stop. Hopefully all states will fight this.

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Gemany and France do not have national ID cards. I think they still remember Hitler. Maybe our government does not.

Uh, we already have this thread. And it's not really a national ID card anyway.
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post #3 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

Gemany and France do not have national ID cards.

I guess I need to throw mine away, then.
post #4 of 37
How is a national ID card different from a state ID card?

In the US, you're pretty much required to have a driver's license (or equivalent) from the DMV regardless of whether you drive or not. You need it to open up a bank account, get a job, travel, buy alchohol or cigarettes.

Every single person over the age of 18 in the US has to have one in order to do pretty much anything in life.

How is having a national one any different?

Besides, it would be much better for preventing identity theft than having people ask for your Social Security number left and right.
post #5 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

How is a national ID card different from a state ID card?

In the US, you're pretty much required to have a driver's license (or equivalent) from the DMV regardless of whether you drive or not. You need it to open up a bank account, get a job, travel, buy alchohol or cigarettes.

Every single person over the age of 18 in the US has to have one in order to do pretty much anything in life.

How is having a national one any different?

Besides, it would be much better for preventing identity theft than having people ask for your Social Security number left and right.

More info about you ( as if we didn't have enough out there. ).

And the way it could be used.


The whole thing sounds like something from a police state to me.
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post #6 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

More info about you ( as if we didn't have enough out there. ).

And the way it could be used.


The whole thing sounds like something from a police state to me.

That is the part that concerns me. How could it be used?
We are ruled by fear. All of this homeland security is a joke. Just another government beuacracy that will eventually bankrupt local governments.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #7 of 37
This is a bad bad bad idea. I've seen these, but they have either hammer and sickles or swastikas on them...
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post #8 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

More info about you ( as if we didn't have enough out there. ).

And the way it could be used.


The whole thing sounds like something from a police state to me.

But how? Does my eye color and sex really constitute private information?

Not that I'm for the national ID card, I just don't see the what the hullabaloo is about, or how it's any different from a driver's license.

Edit: After reading the relevant Wikipedia article, the only thing that really worries me is this:

"A requirement to carry an identity card at all times can lead to the inconvenience of arbitrary requests from card controllers (such as the police). This can lead to functionality creep whereby carrying a card becomes de facto if not de jure compulsory, as in the case of Social Security numbers, which are now widely used as ID."

But I still think the benefits outweigh the cons.
post #9 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

But how? Does my eye color and sex really constitute private information?

Not that I'm for the national ID card, I just don't see the what the hullabaloo is about, or how it's any different from a driver's license.

If you young folks think this is ok, then the future of our freedoms are in trouble.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

If you young folks think this is ok, then the future of our freedoms are in trouble.

What freedoms? You've failed to delineate any flaws.

You're not making a single point, other than running around shrieking and flinging ad hominems.
post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

What freedoms? You've failed to delineate any flaws.

How about the freedom to not identify myself?
post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarkmeister View Post

How about the freedom to not identify myself?

Do you have that freedom right now? Try and open a bank account.
post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

Do you have that freedom right now? Try and open a bank account.

Yes, but the bank is not the government. So if I don't want a bank account, no worries. If I do, then I need to conform to the conditions the bank has established for opening a bank account. I see no problem with this.
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarkmeister View Post

Yes, but the bank is not the government. So if I don't want a bank account, no worries. If I do, then I need to conform to the conditions the bank has established for opening a bank account. I see no problem with this.

But who does hand out the ID you need to open a bank account? Is the Federal government that much scarier than your state government?
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

But who does hand out the ID you need to open a bank account? Is the Federal government that much scarier than your state government?

Private identity verification services? Why do you assume it must be a government that does it?
post #16 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarkmeister View Post

Private identity verification services? Why do you assume it must be a government that does it?

Because, right now, the government does do it? Are there any private identity verification services? You should approach some venture capitalists with that idea.
post #17 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

Because, right now, the government does do it?

That is not answer to the question "Why do you assume it must be a government that does it?"
post #18 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarkmeister View Post

That is not answer to the question "Why do you assume it must be a government that does it?"

Excuse me? Did I ever say the government must do it? I will not defend strawman positions foisted upon me.

My position is that state ID is currently required, whether ideal or not, to live an adult life. In no way is a federal ID any different.
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

Excuse me? Did I ever say the government must do it? I will not defend strawman positions foisted upon me.

My position is that state ID is currently required, whether ideal or not, to live an adult life. In no way is a federal ID any different.

So there really isn't any requirement for government to do this?
post #20 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarkmeister View Post

So there really isn't any requirement for government to do this?

To do what?

Right now, state governments ARE required to furnish proper IDs to its citizens.
post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

To do what?

Right now, state governments ARE required to furnish proper IDs to its citizens.

No they aren't. Not by default anyways.
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post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous View Post

No they aren't. Not by default anyways.

Is there any state that doesn't give non-driver's license ID's?

How do non-drivers in these states get passports or buy alcohol?

I thought all states were required to provide non-driving licenses.
post #23 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

To do what?

Right now, state governments ARE required to furnish proper IDs to its citizens.

Why? And why must this be mandatory?
post #24 of 37
I don't like the national id card, or this id topic, because it sounds like more consolidation of potentially sensitive data. that makes the hard drives that hold that info more valuable, to criminals and politicians [sorry, redundant]. i don't think the government, or private corporations for that matter, have shown that they can yet be trusted with the consolidation of that much data. i recall many stories of information being leaked in large quantity both by accident or security breach. and i think some of the 911 hijackers had valid id cards, so this may or may not help prevent another 911.
post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuh Freak View Post

I don't like the national id card, or this id topic, because it sounds like more consolidation of potentially sensitive data. that makes the hard drives that hold that info more valuable, to criminals and politicians [sorry, redundant]. i don't think the government, or private corporations for that matter, have shown that they can yet be trusted with the consolidation of that much data. i recall many stories of information being leaked in large quantity both by accident or security breach. and i think some of the 911 hijackers had valid id cards, so this may or may not help prevent another 911.

I think we're already "there." Your DL already contains your life history. [EDIT: Obviously I'm exaggerating here] Government can find out anything it wants about you. Keep in mind, it doesn't even seem like we're talking about a true national ID. It seems to me that we're talking about standards that states must follow in issuing IDs, and standards as to what you'll need that ID for. It just doesn't seem that different from what we already have.
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post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

Is there any state that doesn't give non-driver's license ID's?

How do non-drivers in these states get passports or buy alcohol?

I thought all states were required to provide non-driving licenses.

Every state in the Union will issue you a state ID card. They aren't required to give ID to every citizen of their state.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

But who does hand out the ID you need to open a bank account? Is the Federal government that much scarier than your state government?

According to recent news reports, illegal immigrants would be able to start bank accounts and get credit cards... if this is the case, then why in the screaming hell is there so much reporting of me and my business to the government anytime I want to move $10K around? Oh, yeah, I might be trying to do something suspicious...

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post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

According to recent news reports, illegal immigrants would be able to start bank accounts and get credit cards... if this is the case, then why in the screaming hell is there so much reporting of me and my business to the government anytime I want to move $10K around? Oh, yeah, I might be trying to do something suspicious...

Because you are not part of a protected class. Do you have an international consortium of people, lawyers, etc that are willing to see to it that you are never bothered? They do. You Don't. Hell, we've let the left redefine ILLEGALs as "undocumented workers" because it sells better door to door.

They are illegal, protected because people want their votes and labor, and the rest of us citizens can just shove it. That's life and that's what the culture war is really about. That free pass applies to all the special "protected classes," while the leading hustlers dare the rest of us to say a word, out of fear of being called "racist," "sexist," "homophobic," or the like. It is the worst kind of intellectual tyranny.
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post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Because you are not part of a protected class. Do you have an international consortium of people, lawyers, etc that are willing to see to it that you are never bothered? They do. You Don't. Hell, we've let the left redefine ILLEGALs as "undocumented workers" because it sells better door to door.

They are illegal, protected because people want their votes and labor, and the rest of us citizens can just shove it. That's life and that's what the culture war is really about. That free pass applies to all the special "protected classes," while the leading hustlers dare the rest of us to say a word, out of fear of being called "racist," "sexist," "homophobic," or the like. It is the worst kind of intellectual tyranny.

Don't get me wrong, I am an open borders and free markets kinda guy.

My problem is more against government intrusion than against foreign workers. I actually support Bush on getting an accelerated path for workers into legal work. The US cannot afford to shut the doors and lose additional competitive advantages in this day and age.

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post #30 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Don't get me wrong, I am an open borders and free markets kinda guy.

My problem is more against government intrusion than against foreign workers. I actually support Bush on getting an accelerated path for workers into legal work. The US cannot afford to shut the doors and lose additional competitive advantages in this day and age.

Anyone should be able to come here and work IF they obey our laws. We have to. They should as well. If we need to labor that's great, let's get it done. It's those that want amnesty for criminals so that they can win elections that sends me orbital.
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post #31 of 37
I Like Ponies!
post #32 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanisalifestyle View Post

I Like Ponies!

I'll get the tar...
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post #33 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

If you young folks think this is ok, then the future of our freedoms are in trouble.

Agreed! It is a slippery slope that we are already on.

The NSA monitoring calls without warrants and the monitoring of banking wires that go out of the country are just two things that have come to light. What else is there? Where does one draw the line.
post #34 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkarl View Post

Agreed! It is a slippery slope that we are already on.

The NSA monitoring calls without warrants and the monitoring of banking wires that go out of the country are just two things that have come to light. What else is there? Where does one draw the line.

Don't get your panties in a bunch, as they say.

I'll be you $1,000 right here, right now, that the NSA actually monitors all electronic communication in this country, and has for at least 20 years. No...make it 30.

And no, I don't "know" this. I have no evidence. But I don't know how else one can explain the relative lack of terrorism and what not in this country as compared to almost everywhere else the world over.
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post #35 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Don't get your panties in a bunch, as they say.

I'll be you $1,000 right here, right now, that the NSA actually monitors all electronic communication in this country, and has for at least 20 years. No...make it 30.

And no, I don't "know" this. I have no evidence. But I don't know how else one can explain the relative lack of terrorism and what not in this country as compared to almost everywhere else the world over.

Panties are fine. thanks.

Yes, of course, it's entirely possible they've been monitoring for years. Doesn't change the fact that it is an intrusion on my civil liberties.
post #36 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Don't get your panties in a bunch, as they say.

I'll be you $1,000 right here, right now, that the NSA actually monitors all electronic communication in this country, and has for at least 20 years. No...make it 30.

And no, I don't "know" this. I have no evidence. But I don't know how else one can explain the relative lack of terrorism and what not in this country as compared to almost everywhere else the world over.

Just ask Jack Bauer.

http://www.thelocal.se/6645/20070309/

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post #37 of 37
Seems like the UK card scheme will require everyone to have one or else relinquish your passport

Maybe an idea to use that passport to leave while you still have one.....
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