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Apple may turn to RFID tags for easy Wi-Fi setup

post #1 of 55
Thread Starter 
Apple Inc. may turn to RFID tags to simplify Wi-Fi networking of its next-generation Mac and consumer electronics devices, a recent patent filing has revealed.

The filing, titled simply "RFID network arrangement," describes a system in which a router -- such as an AirPort Extreme Base station -- would hold an RFID transceiver containing all of the network's configuration information, including authentication and encryption keys.

When an Wi-Fi-enabled electronics device containing a synchronized RFID tag -- essentially a small hardware patch -- comes within range of the router, the RFID transceiver would automatically transfer the necessary configuration info to the RFID tag without prompting the user to perform software setup.

As Apple notes in the filing, the wireless devices would not need to be turned in order for their RFID tags to communicate and synchronize with the RFID transceiver. Instead, authentication information could be exchanged through the use of passive RFID tags or help from a separate, smaller power supply. As soon as the devices turn on, they'd read the authentication info from the RFID tag an instantly connect to the network.

The filing, which was submitted to the United States Patent and Trademark on September 6th, 2005, and published for the first time on Thursday, adds that RFID network arrangements are particularly useful for devices that lack visual displays and input components, such as the Apple remote.

post #2 of 55
first post!

but seriously, my first thought was for that AppleTV/gaming console controllers. Does the Apple remote really need to change from IR to wireless networking?
post #3 of 55
This sounds like a bad idea to me because it opens security hole in which someone could create a malicious RFID tag, slap it under your desk, and re-rout your DNS through their own malicious proxies.

That "configuration information" could be configuration for just about anything. It is bad, because it assumes trustworthy information from the RFID tag without any verification.

Boy, the NSA could slip these RFID tags into just about any device that might get near a computer to perform its snooping--and it's all hidden and out of site from the user.

Hello Big Brother!
post #4 of 55
LOL, Buy a new Airport base station and start creating copies of peoples passports or changing them for good or evil.

This maybe cheaper than making your own setup, LOL

I wonder how long before it is used that way?
post #5 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbh0001 View Post

This sounds like a bad idea to me because it opens security hole in which someone could create a malicious RFID tag, slap it under your desk, and re-rout your DNS through their own malicious proxies.

That "configuration information" could be configuration for just about anything. It is bad, because it assumes trustworthy information from the RFID tag without any verification.

Boy, the NSA could slip these RFID tags into just about any device that might get near a computer to perform its snooping--and it's all hidden and out of site from the user.

Hello Big Brother!

They maybe doing it already, did you check your belt and your shoes?
post #6 of 55
So, these devices don't need to be turned on, because the RFIDs would communicate using a separate power supply. Which means what? That its always on. It just looks off.
post #7 of 55
Only Apple would try to make something so drop-dead simple that a grandmother could do it even easier to use!

I guess they are shooting for the retarded grandmother crowd, too.

post #8 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louzer View Post

So, these devices don't need to be turned on, because the RFIDs would communicate using a separate power supply. Which means what? That its always on. It just looks off.

The minute power required could come from the wireless signal top the RFID.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #9 of 55
It could be for the real video WiFi enabled iPod, or the iPhone. Didn't Steve say the iPhone just does the right thing?
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #10 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louzer View Post

So, these devices don't need to be turned on, because the RFIDs would communicate using a separate power supply. Which means what? That its always on. It just looks off.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that at least in the case of some of the RFID chips, the radio signal provides the power necessary for the RFID chip to transmit its data or change its data upon request. In that case the device (router, laptop, Apple TV, etc) could be completly off and the RFID chip (only) would wakeup powered by the radio signal and do the recording needed.

Then later when you turn on the device, it would read the info collected by the RFID and use it to set it self up.

Depending on signal strength and Antena, the sender and the receiver could be at a bit of distance (say 30 feet). By defualt most readers read at just under a few inches.

Thats what I heard, right or wrong.
post #11 of 55
RFID is a government program they are designed to be non secure...

they want them so very badly in humans, they want to make an RFID world where everything and everyone is tagged... and since theft is so easy with this things people being scanned and robbed from far away via a remote,we will beg them to put up the police state they already intend for us,the government can also evict somone from society with the press of a button if they dont find you appealing to their order, or if you speak out against them.......... this is no joke,that is the plan!,WE and APPLE should not support RFID in any way shape or form for that would be supporting the cause. and also supporting Nazi IBM.

NO JOKE... this whole RFID thing has me concerned and i do have some Insider info,we should all be very concerned about what this means for humanity if we allow this.

dont take my word for it... Visit www.wethepeoplewillnotbechipped.com

for more info...

and by the way some of the latest chips for humans do more than id...
they have cerebral control capabilites...

DOWN WITH RFID!!!
post #12 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louzer View Post

So, these devices don't need to be turned on, because the RFIDs would communicate using a separate power supply. Which means what? That its always on. It just looks off.

RFIDs don't need their own power supply. They are transponders which activate by the power of transient radio waves.

It's kind of like the difference between a a television set and an oil painting: The television set provides its own light source. Getting data from an RFID tag is like shining a flashlight on an oil painting to see it. In this scenario, the computer's wi-fi components act as both flashlights and eyeballs. Transponders need no internal power source to transmit their data anymore than the pigments in an oil painting need their own internal light source to be seen.
post #13 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

They maybe doing it already, did you check your belt and your shoes?

Hmmm. . . That might explain those suspicious looking MIB lurking around the other day when I bought that new belt, and those shoes. . . Hmmmm. . . .
post #14 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louzer View Post

So, these devices don't need to be turned on, because the RFIDs would communicate using a separate power supply. Which means what? That its always on. It just looks off.

It's on standby. Actually there are quite a few things in your house now that have power to them, but really aren't on. A stereo with a clock, set-top TV boxes, computers, TVs. Alot of these are taking small amounts of power to keep clocks active, allow other activities, and to allow "instant power-on".

Take that set-top box I mentioned, yes I can turn it on and off, but before I turn it on, it's really already on as it has a clock going and it has network activity (my cable company can send firmware updates), etc. I'm not really powering it on, I'm turning it on to be used.
post #15 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman4d2 View Post

RFID is a government program they are designed to be non secure...

they want them so very badly in humans, they want to make an RFID world where everything and everyone is tagged... and since theft is so easy with this things people being scanned and robbed from far away via a remote,we will beg them to put up the police state they already intend for us,the government can also evict somone from society with the press of a button if they dont find you appealing to their order, or if you speak out against them.......... this is no joke,that is the plan!,WE and APPLE should not support RFID in any way shape or form for that would be supporting the cause. and also supporting Nazi IBM.

NO JOKE... this whole RFID thing has me concerned and i do have some Insider info,we should all be very concerned about what this means for humanity if we allow this.

dont take my word for it... Visit www.wethepeoplewillnotbechipped.com

for more info...

and by the way some of the latest chips for humans do more than id...
they have cerebral control capabilites...

DOWN WITH RFID!!!


Give me a royal break. RFID technology is in the company badge that's hanging around my neck right now. There's a huge difference between using it in tech gadgets and implanting it in your wrist. There I would agree with you, I don't want to see the world get to the point where we're implanted with chips any more than you do. But the technology has valid uses.
post #16 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman4d2 View Post

dont take my word for it... Visit www.wethepeoplewillnotbechipped.com

Don't worry, I'm not going to take their word for it either.
post #17 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaPeaJay View Post

Give me a royal break. RFID technology is in the company badge that's hanging around my neck right now. There's a huge difference between using it in tech gadgets and implanting it in your wrist. There I would agree with you, I don't want to see the world get to the point where we're implanted with chips any more than you do. But the technology has valid uses.

Well said.

Fear of the unknown is always there in the ignorant.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #18 of 55
Maybe it is just me, but this kind of negative tone in these posts
stunnes me a lot. I am not very tech savvy, if you know what i mean,
but the idea to simplify network configuration steps is quite compelling.
Apple go for your visions.

my2cents
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post #19 of 55
I really don't understand how this is set up, but the article doesn't even provide the patent number to investigate what it's really saying rather than relying on an abbreviated second hand interpretation. The biggest concern is the mismatch in range between WiFi and RFID.
post #20 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

They maybe doing it already, did you check your belt and your shoes?

Ok, just finished checking my shoes, any tips on how to open up my belt without ruining it?
post #21 of 55
I don't see the benefit of RFID here. It may as well just use the existing 2.4GHz radio, which becomes a firmware-only patch.
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post #22 of 55
I have some very very high ranking people in my family in government... they and their associates all say it,the police state is coming and people need to wake up.

so i do know what i am talking about.

and yes they do want everyone implanted! their are official documents out their that state so, you can read for yourself.
post #23 of 55
I for one welcome our new RFID overlords

post #24 of 55
All someone has to do is get within 30 feet ?

Dam ! Most of the time I just smile at the cops . . . they never know I 'm wanted !

Now they'll set their scanners to check everyone who comes with in range !

Can I put tin foil around my drivers license ( Real ID) ), my head or iphone so they can't read me ?

Better yet, I'm willing to help finance a start up that manufactures fake RIFD broadcast devices so that no one can scan you/your RIFD(s) without your knowledge ! I'm sure we can get a great start on THINKGEEK . .. from there BestBuy , Sears . . . EBAY . . . Guantanimo Bay !

Moreover, it's really not that hard to configure an Apple wireless network . After you've done it once or twice, it's really the equivalent of setting up your stereo or cable box . . . then again ?

Seriously, does anyone know if we'll be able to encrypt and or password protect these things?

Will these RIFD's be able access my Wifi /Airport G/N network, even if it's invisible , encrypted and password protected . . . without my inputting the the info ? After I do will it be able to give the info away , say to itunes when I download a movie ?

Seems we're getting very close to some of the best reasons to avoid Microsoft !

Maybe this is why Steve had a wired earpiece instead of a Bluetooth one with that invisible iphone in his pocket ?
post #25 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman4d2 View Post

RFID is a government program they are designed to be non secure...

they want them so very badly in humans, they want to make an RFID world where everything and everyone is tagged... and since theft is so easy with this things people being scanned and robbed from far away via a remote,we will beg them to put up the police state they already intend for us,the government can also evict somone from society with the press of a button if they dont find you appealing to their order, or if you speak out against them.......... this is no joke,that is the plan!,WE and APPLE should not support RFID in any way shape or form for that would be supporting the cause. and also supporting Nazi IBM.

NO JOKE... this whole RFID thing has me concerned and i do have some Insider info,we should all be very concerned about what this means for humanity if we allow this.

dont take my word for it... Visit www.wethepeoplewillnotbechipped.com

for more info...

and by the way some of the latest chips for humans do more than id...
they have cerebral control capabilites...

DOWN WITH RFID!!!

Just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you.

However all RFID chips are fairly easy to detect and FRY with the right equiptment. A little too much power on that signal that activates them and thry fry nicely.

RFID tags are being inserted in all kinds of clothing items, if someone knows what you purchased and can get the serial as you leave the store, they can find you next time you wear that item if you are close enough to them.

A lot of books, CD's, computers and most items you purchase have them. Then again a lot of cars and phones have GPS chips on them even if you did not turn it on, they can be activated to locate you.

There is a lot to dislike about RFID and GPS.

However I don't sugest you fry the GPS in the above Apple equiptment as it would likely stop working completly or at least that feature will.

RFID in passports can be used to target you and follow you and they are almost a kid game to duplicate the data in the chip.

There are credit cards with them built in, they can follow you by your purchases and by you coming close to sensors even if you buy nothing.

How about that gas pass and the office id card, how about your driver license?

RFID is everywhere and getting worse, zap as many as you can.

There was a case not long ago where in order to enter the computer room in this one company, people had to get an RFID implanted under the skin. The newspapers got a hold of the story and the company said that it was voluntary to get the implant, but what they meant was it was voluntary if you did not wanted a job that requires you to enter the computer room.

Plenty of reason to worry
PS. I am a security consultant
post #26 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbh0001 View Post

RFIDs don't need their own power supply. They are transponders which activate by the power of transient radio waves.

It's kind of like the difference between a a television set and an oil painting: The television set provides its own light source. Getting data from an RFID tag is like shining a flashlight on an oil painting to see it. In this scenario, the computer's wi-fi components act as both flashlights and eyeballs. Transponders need no internal power source to transmit their data anymore than the pigments in an oil painting need their own internal light source to be seen.

Nice Metaphor ! Cool !
post #27 of 55
.....
post #28 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Fear of the unknown is always there in the ignorant.

It's always easier to attack a person than to generate a logical argument. Call me ignorant, but I think there are merits to both sides of this one, and fear has little to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

There is a lot to dislike about RFID and GPS.

I concur, and I think it's always important to be vigilant. If we can debate ad infinitum about the ramifications of something like the Patriot Act, surely we can discuss the issues related to this kind of technology and remain within the bounds of civility.
post #29 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman4d2 View Post

I have some very very high ranking people in my family in government... they and their associates all say it,the police state is coming and people need to wake up.

so i do know what i am talking about.

and yes they do want everyone implanted! their are official documents out their that state so, you can read for yourself.

Well, a few things. . .

RFID tags are pretty harmless. I know this, because I used to work for an RFID company. In fact, I developed RFID products. Biometrics is much more of a "big brother" type of technology. Here's why. . .

The kind of RFID tags that are small, cheap, and can be embedded in a card, passport, or person all require that the reader supplies it electricity via magnetic induction. The read range for these types of tags is low - like less than one meter. There are some 900MHz and microwave tags out there that can achieve greater range, but the 900MHz tags are too large to be inconspicuous, and the microwave tags (2.4GHz) are interferred with by the human body.

If you are paranoid, wrap your stuff in foil. But, seriously, you're a lot better off with RFID. Most credit card and identity theft still comes from over-the-shoulder peeking. With RFID cards, that's gone -- you can even keep them safely tucked inside your wallet.

Implanting won't succeed because it's not impossible to fake. In fact, it's not actually that hard to fake the kind of low-frequency tags that are generally used for subdermal identification. Also, at this frequency band the induction range drops of with range as a power of 6. So even with a 1 million watt subdermal RFID reader, it's not going to reach more than a few meters at the most.
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post #30 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbh0001 View Post

This sounds like a bad idea to me because it opens security hole in which someone could create a malicious RFID tag, slap it under your desk, and re-rout your DNS through their own malicious proxies.

Wouldn't they still have to have a wireless router within range? The article leads me to believe that the RFID tag would only transmit configuration information so you don't have to type it yourself. It seems to me that this would prevent me from having to type a WPA password when I try to connect to a network. Also, the use of the word "synchronized" in the article implies to me that there's some kind of user interaction (ex, "Mac OS X has detected a new Wireless network named, "SuperSecretNSANetwork" in range. Would you like to join this network?"). I seriously doubt it would join a network without a yes/no/always dialog.

Now, if the NSA had a wireless router in every home, then I'd be worried. But not because of the automatic RFID configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman4d2 View Post

RFID is a government program they are designed to be non secure...

they want them so very badly in humans

I almost stopped reading your post at this point, but I'm glad I didn't because...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman4d2 View Post

Nazi IBM.

LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

I don't see the benefit of RFID here. It may as well just use the existing 2.4GHz radio, which becomes a firmware-only patch.

I suspect they want to use passive RFID because of the low power requirements and the limited range.

It's actually a pretty interesting idea... I imagine this could be used to toggle power to the Wi-fi antenna based on whether there's a network in range. Say I'm taking my computer to a friend's house -- I'm on battery power so OS X has the Wi-fi antenna turned off to maximize battery life. I get within range of my friend's router and, without wasting any battery power, OS X detects the network and asks me if I want to connect to the it. I say "yes", the antenna gets power, and I have connectivity without having to ask for or type any passwords. That's pretty slick. The power savings might be minimal, but every little bit counts.
post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman4d2 View Post

I have some very very high ranking people in my family in government... they and their associates all say it,the police state is coming and people need to wake up.

so i do know what i am talking about.

and yes they do want everyone implanted! their are official documents out their that state so, you can read for yourself.

I think you'll need to provide better information than that. I have not been able to find any confirmation of the information you gave re: RFID.
post #32 of 55
Not for this device, but for all other RFID tags around the house:
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/...s_the_rfi.html
post #33 of 55
How about they stop fuggin up Wifi right now. That last update killed my connection. The fix was simple, but still, I was pissed.
post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolHandPete View Post

It's always easier to attack a person than to generate a logical argument. Call me ignorant, but I think there are merits to both sides of this one, and fear has little to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon
There is a lot to dislike about RFID and GPS.

I concur, and I think it's always important to be vigilant. If we can debate ad infinitum about the ramifications of something like the Patriot Act, surely we can discuss the issues related to this kind of technology and remain within the bounds of civility.

EagerDragon - Ummmm - I did not noticed being out of line in any way, what exactly was not civil?
post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight View Post

How about they stop fuggin up Wifi right now. That last update killed my connection. The fix was simple, but still, I was pissed.

Not sure that has anything to do with this thread, but I'm glad you got the situation resolved.
post #36 of 55
xxxxx
turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

.....So far as I'm concerned, this is a raging example of " boiling the frog.".....

post #38 of 55
xxxxx
turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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post #39 of 55
as consumer products are generated to link to your network, and more and more network devices, IT'S A PAIN SETTING IT ALL UP, think a bout a power failure, my wife hates all this because i'm the only one to reprogram these messes. EASE OF USE is paramount. can you imagine no setup time??? more consumers would adopt like droves to go apple for the setup security it offers. this is again, why the apple model and not the MS model works.....control hardware, software, connection, setup experience. and you know all those "compatible" routers, network drives, are a royal pain to setup and holy moly if it goes down or can't connect. the solution was out there and it took apple to see the benefits....FIRST. bravo apple.
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

as consumer products are generated to link to your network, and more and more network devices, IT'S A PAIN SETTING IT ALL UP, think a bout a power failure, my wife hates all this because i'm the only one to reprogram these messes. EASE OF USE is paramount. can you imagine no setup time??? more consumers would adopt like droves to go apple for the setup security it offers. this is again, why the apple model and not the MS model works.....control hardware, software, connection, setup experience. and you know all those "compatible" routers, network drives, are a royal pain to setup and holy moly if it goes down or can't connect. the solution was out there and it took apple to see the benefits....FIRST. bravo apple.

I have had so few poblems I fail to see the "bennies" to which you refer> sounds like a "red herring" to me. and apparently i'm not the only one in this thread that think so....
turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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