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Firefox vs. Camino

post #1 of 45
3/10/07 at 10:46am
Thread Starter 
I'm sitting on the fence between Firefox and Camino. I have no idea which to use.

Camino and Firefox fans, please feel free to do your best to sway me in your direction.

I won't consider OmniWeb because I have to pay for it, and it offers no compelling advantages over free browsers.

In my opinion, Safari is inferior in every way to Camino and Firefox. However, I'll give Safari 3.0 an honest try once Leopard comes out since it does seem to have a substantial number of new features.

Opera may be vastly superior to all Mac browsers. However, as much as I tried to like it, the interface is just too alien to me. Again, this is a matter of personal preference.

The reason I'm torn between Firefox and Camino.

Firefox pros:

1) Full extension support, including the del.icio.us plugin.
2) Keyboard shortcuts that make sense, like Control-Tab and F6 to access URL bar.
3) Spell-checking (non-native to Mac dictionary, but I don't care).
4) Superior preferences, including Cookie management, which lets you enter sites to allow cookies.
5) Link to extensions page within menu.

Firefox cons:

1) Slowest browser on Mac
2) Freezing issues, especially with Bookmark Bar bookmarks
3) non-Cocoa app without integration into Mac dictionary and other OS X API's
4) Ugly GUI
5) Inferior bookmark manager with no Bookmark Bar section

Camino pros:

1) Cocoa app
2) Blazing fast
3) Mostly stable
4) Much prettier than Firefox

Camino cons:

1) No spell-checking (to be added in 1.1)
2) Stupid keyboard shortcuts (Control-Option Left and Right for tab scrolling and Command-L instead of F6 for URL address field)
3) Inferior cookie management preferences. I can't enter sites exception sites for cookies. I can only remove them and let them get added automatically. (This is not fixed in 1.1 )
4) Inferior extensions manager and need to search for extensions page. There's no link in the preferences

I'm sure I'm missing out other little details.

Pros of both:

1) Keyboard shortcuts to webpages, like gg {search term} for Google. Safari doesn't have this and Opera's implementation associates it to a one-letter shortcut.
2) Type-ahead find. No other browsers I know of have this.
3) Support for userContent.css content-blocking. Opera's feature, which is GUI driven, is superior to all other browsers, however.

Anyway, you can't accuse me of not having put a lot of thought into this.
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post #2 of 45
3/10/07 at 1:41pm
Camino pros:

2) Blazing fast

Just to check out your statement I downloaded Camino. Your definitely right. Very fast.

Roy Rogers
2009 Quad 2.66 Mac Pro, 12 GB OWC RAM, ATI 4870, Wi-Fi Card 802.11n, AppleCare, 4 WD Caviar Black 1TB HD's, 2 SuperDrives, 24" Apple LED Display.
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2009 Quad 2.66 Mac Pro, 12 GB OWC RAM, ATI 4870, Wi-Fi Card 802.11n, AppleCare, 4 WD Caviar Black 1TB HD's, 2 SuperDrives, 24" Apple LED Display.
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post #3 of 45
3/10/07 at 1:51pm
I say Camino. Unless there are tons of Firefox extensions you can't live without, just go with the one that integrates into Cocoa and doesn't take half a century to open. Besides that, the more extensions you have the more unstable it becomes.

Here's a Video that also helps explain why I use Camino. It's so Sad

Sebastian
Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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post #4 of 45
3/10/07 at 2:46pm
I can't be of much help because I agree with all your assessments and I'm trying to make the same decision. Here's one fact that is probably not relevant to you. I find that Firefox works much better and faster under Windows XP than Mac OSX. On Win XP, there is no choice-Firefox is the best by far. It's fast and crashes rarely. On Mac OSX, it is very sloooooooow and crashes frequently. I'm probably going to go with Camino because of its speed but I'll miss those great Firefox exstensions.
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post #5 of 45
3/10/07 at 2:51pm
Thread Starter 
Wow! That is sad

Mike Pinkerton didn't seem to tell the whole story. I'm under the impression that AOL cancelling Camino's launch at MacWorld was at least partially responsible for Apple going with KHTML instead of Camino for Apple's browser. It's too bad, because Safari, IMHO, is clearly inferior to Camino, at least, as Camino is today at 1.0.

I'm wondering if there's a possibility of Camino being re-merged with Firefox. The codbases would seem to be incompatible (XUL vs. Cocoa), but I can dream, can't I? 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

I say Camino. Unless there are tons of Firefox extensions you can't live without, just go with the one that integrates into Cocoa and doesn't take half a century to open. Besides that, the more extensions you have the more unstable it becomes.

Here's a Video that also helps explain why I use Camino. It's so Sad

Sebastian
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post #6 of 45
3/10/07 at 3:42pm
I was going to ask a similar question, Safari or Firefox 2.0?

I've been having issues with Safari not wanting to connect & seems to be running slower, Firefox seems faster but I was told 2.0 for the Mac isn't the best way to go. Any thoughts?
You are coming to a sad realization, cancel or allow?
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You are coming to a sad realization, cancel or allow?
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post #7 of 45
3/10/07 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post

Wow! That is sad

Mike Pinkerton didn't seem to tell the whole story. I'm under the impression that AOL cancelling Camino's launch at MacWorld was at least partially responsible for Apple going with KHTML instead of Camino for Apple's browser. It's too bad, because Safari, IMHO, is clearly inferior to Camino, at least, as Camino is today at 1.0.

I'm wondering if there's a possibility of Camino being re-merged with Firefox. The codbases would seem to be incompatible (XUL vs. Cocoa), but I can dream, can't I? 8)

Hmm, they could have still shown off Camino at Macworld. But Camino doesn't need to be re-merged with Firefox. Hell they were never merged to begin with.

Personally I hope WebKit picks up more development because when you compare the Mozilla and the WebKit project pages, the Mozilla page is a mess and WebKit is more focused but it's still missing some essential stuff (mostly full or at least most of CSS, Support) and if the WebKit project picks up enough steam, it'll leave Gecko in the dust and Camino will be able to cut off ties with Mozilla.

Sebastian
Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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post #8 of 45
3/10/07 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WJHMH View Post

I was going to ask a similar question, Safari or Firefox 2.0?

I've been having issues with Safari not wanting to connect & seems to be running slower, Firefox seems faster but I was told 2.0 for the Mac isn't the best way to go. Any thoughts?

Camino

Sebastian
Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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post #9 of 45
3/10/07 at 4:55pm
Thread Starter 
I just took a look at the WebKit page. It doesn't really seem to be cross-platform, aside from a young GTK+ port and a pledge to start supporting Windows.

Firefox has established itself as the premier cross-platform browser. Users can expect a mostly homogenous browsing experience across Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and OS X. It will be very difficult to unseat it.

On the other hand, Firefox seems to be losing a lot of momentum with all the defections of their contributors to Google. I've noticed a substantial slowdown in the development of the browser from a year ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

Hmm, they could have still shown off Camino at Macworld. But Camino doesn't need to be re-merged with Firefox. Hell they were never merged to begin with.

Personally I hope WebKit picks up more development because when you compare the Mozilla and the WebKit project pages, the Mozilla page is a mess and WebKit is more focused but it's still missing some essential stuff (mostly full or at least most of CSS, Support) and if the WebKit project picks up enough steam, it'll leave Gecko in the dust and Camino will be able to cut off ties with Mozilla.

Sebastian
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post #10 of 45
3/10/07 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post

Users can expect a mostly homogenous browsing experience across Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and OS X. It will be very difficult to unseat it.

I disagree. I've used Firefox on XP since version 1.0. On OSX, it's as if I'm using a different browser. If my first experience with Firefox has been on the Mac, I would never have continued using it. I keep hoping that there are some core development issues that will be fixed to elevate its performance such that it is as good on the Mac as it is on XP.
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post #11 of 45
3/10/07 at 7:30pm
Slewis,

Thanks for the link to Mike Pinkerton video. It was a very useful learning experience.
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post #12 of 45
3/11/07 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post

I just took a look at the WebKit page. It doesn't really seem to be cross-platform, aside from a young GTK+ port and a pledge to start supporting Windows.

Firefox has established itself as the premier cross-platform browser. Users can expect a mostly homogenous browsing experience across Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and OS X. It will be very difficult to unseat it.

On the other hand, Firefox seems to be losing a lot of momentum with all the defections of their contributors to Google. I've noticed a substantial slowdown in the development of the browser from a year ago.

Um yeah, that's why I was talking about this for Camino and not Firefox.

Sebastian
Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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post #13 of 45
3/11/07 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe2211 View Post

Slewis,

Thanks for the link to Mike Pinkerton video. It was a very useful learning experience.

You're welcome.

Sebastian
Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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post #14 of 45
3/11/07 at 12:35pm
I'd really like to use Camino all the time, except that I'm addicted to Firefox's live bookmarks. I'm not crazy about the huge page of RSS like in Safari, and there's no real option available (that I know of) in Camino.

So much nicer just to click on a few live bookmarks in Firefox to see what the latest headlines are instead of going to ad-laden pages or wading through horrific "Web 2.0" layouts.

This was posted using Safari, because for some twisted reason I like its appearance the best. I usually bounce between the three browsers, spending most of my time in Firefox. I've heard constantly about it being a memory hog and being dog slow on the OS X platform, but I have yet to see any serious deficiencies.
rentedmule

Go to bread.
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rentedmule

Go to bread.
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post #15 of 45
3/11/07 at 2:02pm
I love Camino, but I am tied to Safari just for one very useful feature. The feature "Mail Contents of this Page" via command-I, is not duplicated in any other browser on the market today. I use this feature every single day. I can't stop using Safari because of it.
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post #16 of 45
3/11/07 at 6:54pm
Thread Starter 
Another con for Camino: No draggable tabs. Apparently, they're still working on it.

Not a huge deal, but another minus for Camino.
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post #17 of 45
3/11/07 at 7:31pm
just a quick question is there any kind of mouse gesture add-ons for camino because mighty mouse doesn't support "forward-back button" like other mouse have and I have to use gestures on firefox
does Camino has this features?
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post #18 of 45
3/11/07 at 7:50pm
Am I weird, or does Camino crash more frequently and just looks ugly? I have used it a lot when I got a Mac -- but it crashed a whole lot. Maybe it was that it was an older version? And then I re-downloaded it, because I heard more buzz (this was about a month ago) and I just couldn't stand the look.

And I happen to like the bookmarks. I actually hate Safari's use of bookmarks. Maybe it's just personal style, I don't know, but I would choose Firefox over them all.

(Although it is a memory hog....)
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post #19 of 45
3/11/07 at 8:33pm
I have a mighty mouse and Camino allows use of forward/back (secondary button/right click) for me.
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post #20 of 45
3/11/07 at 8:41pm
lfe2211: how do you do that?? isn't the secondary button is set for the "right click" how do u set it to use forward/back
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post #21 of 45
3/11/07 at 8:50pm
I finger click "right of center" on the top side of the MM. In the MM sys pref, this area/button is set as "secondary" button.
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post #22 of 45
3/11/07 at 8:56pm
Does Camino have "Restore Session" like Firefox? If it does, I can't find it.
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post #23 of 45
3/11/07 at 8:57pm
I don't get you lfe2211
Do you mean you set the Middle Click button as Secondary Button
What about the Right Side of the MM?? what do u set it as
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post #24 of 45
3/11/07 at 9:14pm
Go to Sys pref panel and look at the diagram.
The left side is set as the primary button for simple clicking/selecting.
The middle "button" is the scroll button and can be programmed to enable Dashboard for example.
The right side is labeled "secondary" button and acts like a "right click" button.

Make sure to right click in an appropriate area of the web page to see the drop down menu that contains Back, forward, reload, i.e. not over an image

Any of the buttons can be programmed to have different options. Click on the drop down menus to see the choices.
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post #25 of 45
3/11/07 at 9:16pm
oh lol
now i get you...
that's not what I really have in mind... thanks anyway
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post #26 of 45
3/11/07 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by illutionz View Post

oh lol
now i get you...
that's not what I really have in mind... thanks anyway

I use the mouse gestures add-on in Firefox. Camino does not have an add-on like that.
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post #27 of 45
3/12/07 at 4:03am
I recently switched to Camino 1.1b, the latest version. It finally allowed me to switch away from Safari.

My main reason for switching was rendering issues. Many websites are optimised for IE, fewer for Firefox/Camino , but even less for Safari. Many websites are plain broken in Safari, at least many european sites are.

Also, things like spell checking, session restore, ad blocking are nice features in the latest Camino. And it is speedy. The only issue I have left is that scrolling is a little better animated in Safari, it feels somehow more smooth, although its not as there is any 'lag' in Camino.
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post #28 of 45
3/12/07 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post

I'm sitting on the fence between Firefox and Camino. I have no idea which to use.

Camino and Firefox fans, please feel free to do your best to sway me in your direction.

I won't consider OmniWeb because I have to pay for it, and it offers no compelling advantages over free browsers.

In my opinion, Safari is inferior in every way to Camino and Firefox. However, I'll give Safari 3.0 an honest try once Leopard comes out since it does seem to have a substantial number of new features.

Opera may be vastly superior to all Mac browsers. However, as much as I tried to like it, the interface is just too alien to me. Again, this is a matter of personal preference.

The reason I'm torn between Firefox and Camino.

Firefox pros:

1) Full extension support, including the del.icio.us plugin.
2) Keyboard shortcuts that make sense, like Control-Tab and F6 to access URL bar.
3) Spell-checking (non-native to Mac dictionary, but I don't care).
4) Superior preferences, including Cookie management, which lets you enter sites to allow cookies.
5) Link to extensions page within menu.

Firefox cons:

1) Slowest browser on Mac
2) Freezing issues, especially with Bookmark Bar bookmarks
3) non-Cocoa app without integration into Mac dictionary and other OS X API's
4) Ugly GUI
5) Inferior bookmark manager with no Bookmark Bar section

Camino pros:

1) Cocoa app
2) Blazing fast
3) Mostly stable
4) Much prettier than Firefox

Camino cons:

1) No spell-checking (to be added in 1.1)
2) Stupid keyboard shortcuts (Control-Option Left and Right for tab scrolling and Command-L instead of F6 for URL address field)
3) Inferior cookie management preferences. I can't enter sites exception sites for cookies. I can only remove them and let them get added automatically. (This is not fixed in 1.1 )
4) Inferior extensions manager and need to search for extensions page. There's no link in the preferences

I'm sure I'm missing out other little details.

Pros of both:

1) Keyboard shortcuts to webpages, like gg {search term} for Google. Safari doesn't have this and Opera's implementation associates it to a one-letter shortcut.
2) Type-ahead find. No other browsers I know of have this.
3) Support for userContent.css content-blocking. Opera's feature, which is GUI driven, is superior to all other browsers, however.

Anyway, you can't accuse me of not having put a lot of thought into this.

i've used all three extensively and as much as i've tried to convince myself otherwise, firefox is the best browser available (for any OS).

i'm confused about your pro/con list. some of them don't make sense. my FF doesn't freeze often, not any more than camino. i have a loaded bookmark bar and have never had that be an issue. i don't think camino is any "prettier" than FF -- and i am an aesthetics guy. i use the Opaque + Clear Tabs theme, and it looks great. i also can't live without my extensions. Showcase Fox gives me an expose-style window for my tabs. customize google for .... customizing google. stop-reload button for combining the stop and reload buttons (have fun getting the camino devs to even consider that idea). i can also store multiple login accounts for a single website -- not possible in camino because it uses keychain. some may see that as a positive, some a negative.

having used both camino and FF on the mac for months each, i don't see "slowest/fastest" browser thing. i just never quit out of Firefox, only close the window. clicking on the icon in the dock gives me a new window when i need one.

i honestly tried to make camino my browser. i used only camino for 3 months, but there were just too many features missing that i had to switch back to firefox.
wysiwyg asap
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post #29 of 45
3/12/07 at 3:46pm
http://www.beatnikpad.com/archives/2...4/firefox-2002

Optimized for your CPU arch. Noticeably faster then Firefox standard.

Spicy...
"Humankind -- despite its artistic pretensions, its sophistication, and its many accomplishments -- owes its existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains."
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"Humankind -- despite its artistic pretensions, its sophistication, and its many accomplishments -- owes its existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains."
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post #30 of 45
3/12/07 at 8:36pm
Camino has some weird things I don't like. Why not have all of the clear personal data items in the same place like firefox does? Instead cookies is on one menu, cache in another, history in another. What the hell?

Also, I can't right click on back/forward or inks bar to get tabs of those like I can in firefox. And the search is lame...no search as you type.

I like the increased speed... I like the favicons in the link bar... but it's just as quirky as safari. And safari has a built in PDF viewer which neither Firefox nor Camino has. And I use firefox btw.
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post #31 of 45
3/12/07 at 8:41pm
I want to like Camino. I really do. I try using it every so often, but the lack of features gets in the way. I tried the beta over the past couple of weeks, but it was really extremely unstable for me and crashed every couple of hours.

I use Firefox pretty heavily for web development and everything else. I like the aqua widget builds linked above. Firefox is noticeably slower than Camino, but it still works much better overall.

That said, Camino 1.1b is still my system "default" browser, even though I use Firefox pretty much exclusively. Of course, I hop between the big three pretty regularly and don't think about it too much. You aren't making any sort of investment by using one over the other, so it really isn't worth it to stress about the "decision."
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post #32 of 45
3/13/07 at 5:12am
firefox has favicons in the bookmark bar.
hit / to start seach-as-you type in camino.

and what exactly about FF is noticeably slower. it's not the page loading -- not on my macbook, at least.
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post #33 of 45
3/13/07 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball View Post

...no search as you type.

I like the increased speed... I like the favicons in the link bar... but it's just as quirky as safari. And safari has a built in PDF viewer which neither Firefox nor Camino has. And I use firefox btw.

Try installling the MoreCamino Extension, its allows search as you type, without the preceding /
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post #34 of 45
3/13/07 at 7:02am
I personally prefer Camino (no movable tabs notwithstanding), but there are two features that have kept me chained to Safari - the private browsing option and (especially) dot mac sync compatibility. I use two computers interchangeably every day, and my bookmarks in Safari sync automatically across the two machines. I'm not aware of any way to achieve anything similar in Camino, or in Firefox, for that matter.
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post #35 of 45
3/13/07 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lap23 View Post

I personally prefer Camino (no movable tabs notwithstanding), but there are two features that have kept me chained to Safari - the private browsing option and (especially) dot mac sync compatibility. I use two computers interchangeably every day, and my bookmarks in Safari sync automatically across the two machines. I'm not aware of any way to achieve anything similar in Camino, or in Firefox, for that matter.

google browser sync.

also, you can have firefox clear your private data every time you quit the program. Prefs/Privacy/Always clear my private data....
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post #36 of 45
3/13/07 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe2211 View Post

Does Camino have "Restore Session" like Firefox? If it does, I can't find it.

Another Firefox feature that keeps me from using Safari is "recently closed tabs" in the history menu. Also "bookmark all tabs".

These three features I can't live without. Do I have any choice other than Firefox?
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post #37 of 45
3/19/07 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post

I won't consider OmniWeb because I have to pay for it, and it offers no compelling advantages over free browsers.

I switched to OmniWeb because $14.95 is a small price to pay for the fastest browser on OS X, a scrollable tab drawer, workspaces, auto-saving browsing sessions among other things.

I hated it at first, but gave it a 3 day trial before buying loving it so much I had no choice but to buy it.
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post #38 of 45
3/19/07 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lap23 View Post

I personally prefer Camino (no movable tabs notwithstanding), but there are two features that have kept me chained to Safari - the private browsing option and (especially) dot mac sync compatibility. I use two computers interchangeably every day, and my bookmarks in Safari sync automatically across the two machines. I'm not aware of any way to achieve anything similar in Camino, or in Firefox, for that matter.

Can't live without private browsing?

Cut the porn addiction!
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post #39 of 45
3/19/07 at 11:47am
Another thing you might try is getting the Camino 1.1 beta. It's worth a shot at least, form my experience it's fairly stable and I'm happy with it.
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post #40 of 45
3/21/07 at 4:42pm
Thread Starter 
I tried Camino for a solid week but I had to switch back to Firefox.

Why? Well, Camino seems to be well behind the features that are currently available in Firefox. Specifically, it does not have:

1) Draggable tabs
2) Decent type-ahead find capability (its implementation seems to be at least one full version behind Firefox's)
3) Support for plugins
4) Sensible keyboard shortcuts. The lack of Ctrl-Tab for switching tabs just makes no sense.
5) Middle-Click to close tabs.
6) Decent preferences configuration, including adding to my cookie whitelist.
7) Decent configuration for the toolbar. For instance, the URL bar and google search bar are glued together, and there's no GO button.

Sorry, but Camino is really behind the curve, as its entire featureset is at least one full version behind Firefox's. Its only saving grace is that it's a Cocoa app, which gives speed and aesthetic improvements over Firefox, but little else.
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