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Don't let the door hit you in the @#$ Halliburton - Page 2

post #41 of 79
3/13/07 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Where is the oil? Hmm? And reconstruction...you're telling me we went ot war for Halliburton's sake? I mean....you actually believe that?

Dude. It's not a zero sum game. You know that. Don't be intentionally obtuse. I DO believe that part of the reason for going to war was for profiteering. And Haliburton is only one of the major contractors who've made BILLIONS off this war.

How 'bout this. How about the ENTIRE defense apparatus profited off Iraq. Yet another major reason to go to war. More tanks. More weapons. More SAMs. The cost and depletion of resources on just the "shock and awe" portion of the war needed massive restocking and re-supply. All of that cost us a TON of cash. Every vendor who supplies the defense department profited handsomely with brand new Requisition Orders.

Haliburton is just the figurehead of liberal ire at such a depletion of our nation's gold.

Let's not even start talking about our costs in blood.
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post #42 of 79
3/13/07 at 7:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Dude. It's not a zero sum game. You know that. Don't be intentionally obtuse. I DO believe that part of the reason for going to war was for profiteering. And Haliburton is only one of the major contractors who've made BILLIONS off this war.

How 'bout this. How about the ENTIRE defense apparatus profited off Iraq. Yet another major reason to go to war. More tanks. More weapons. More SAMs. The cost and depletion of resources on just the "shock and awe" portion of the war needed massive restocking and re-supply. All of that cost us a TON of cash. Every vendor who supplies the defense department profited handsomely with brand new Requisition Orders.

Haliburton is just the figurehead of liberal ire at such a depletion of our nation's gold.

Let's not even start talking about our costs in blood.

The words of a true Patriot.

America needs more people who can put country over corporation and party.

I do not support war where by we go in and bust up a nation so that we can go in profiting from rebuilding what we tore up.

And what the HELL are we doing in IRAQ.

What about 911? were the hijackers from Iraq?

Those here who lick the boots of the war makers and profit from the death of our soldiers and the lives of innocent women and children in foreign lands are far worse than shameful...

There are no words low enough.

Fellowship
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post #43 of 79
3/13/07 at 9:41pm
You said it . . . go!

and the idea of profiteering from this fiasco does not end with the direct pay to Halliburton et al. A major motivation for the war was opening new markets, much needed new export markets: they really believed that we were going to be welcomed with open arms, and wallets.

Oh yeah and the oil contracts and keeping the standard in US dollars . . . the list goes on and on

You (to SDW and gang of asslickers) may have hated the M Moore movie, but watching the pre-war convention of Marketeers salivating, very verbally, at the soon to be made money was, without any commentary, telling enough!

oh, let me guess, you actually never saw it and just hate the movie anyway.
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post #44 of 79
3/13/07 at 9:47pm
Doesn't Halliburton outsource most of its gigs anyways? Yes they do. Kacheeeeng!


Peter
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post #45 of 79
3/13/07 at 10:47pm
Yea... we did it for the oil. That's why. I sure do love this cheap gas all of us are getting because we took over another country... I never thought I'd see 99c a gallon again. Thanks Republicans!

8)

For the long term, the American president can't do a damn thing about the price of oil.

War profiteering will never end. Be that a War on Drugs, War on Poverty, Iraq, etc. Every time the government moves, there are billions at stake... be that in a welfare line or a flight line. No leftie seems to mind when the government spends billions and corporations make profit for causes THEY believe in. (eco-subsidies, et al)
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post #46 of 79
3/14/07 at 2:14am
  • BR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Why do you bother with your constant assault of left wing Bush hatred? Why not go to these sites to feel better?

www.huffingtonpost.com

www.salon.com

www.whywehatebush.com

www.liberalavenger.com

Seriously. I bet you and Artman look like identical twins except one of you has a goatee.

 

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post #47 of 79
3/14/07 at 2:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

False. I am a Republican that thinks we need far greater regulation of the oil industry...right down to price controls for gasoline.

As for Big Business, well I believe (like most conservatives) in a free market economy. They can pay their CEOs whatever they want, as long as their shareholders go for it. I have no problem with them making money. Making money is good.

Yes, I realize those two ideas contradict, and I can explain my position. Gasoline, for example, has become an unquestionable necessity in our modern world. Just like public utilities and (and certain food items, like milk) there needs to be some control in the interest of the public good. If Apple Computer makes the largest profit in history, that's good for them. But when an industry that has total control over the consumer is making those kind of profits, action must be taken.

Well put. I've been saying that gasoline needs to be treated like public utility for years.

 

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post #48 of 79
3/14/07 at 6:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Seriously. I bet you and Artman look like identical twins except one of you has a goatee.

Like in that old Star Trek episode Mirror, Mirror...with Evil Spock and Kirk?

I don't have a goatee though, so I guess Artman is the evil one?
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post #49 of 79
3/14/07 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Dude. It's not a zero sum game. You know that. Don't be intentionally obtuse. I DO believe that part of the reason for going to war was for profiteering. And Haliburton is only one of the major contractors who've made BILLIONS off this war.

How 'bout this. How about the ENTIRE defense apparatus profited off Iraq. Yet another major reason to go to war. More tanks. More weapons. More SAMs. The cost and depletion of resources on just the "shock and awe" portion of the war needed massive restocking and re-supply. All of that cost us a TON of cash. Every vendor who supplies the defense department profited handsomely with brand new Requisition Orders.

Haliburton is just the figurehead of liberal ire at such a depletion of our nation's gold.

Let's not even start talking about our costs in blood.

It could be a reason, I agree. But you don't know that. You can't offer evidence to support delibrate profiteering. The ends don't indicate the intention.
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post #50 of 79
3/14/07 at 6:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

You said it . . . go!

and the idea of profiteering from this fiasco does not end with the direct pay to Halliburton et al. A major motivation for the war was opening new markets, much needed new export markets: they really believed that we were going to be welcomed with open arms, and wallets.

Oh yeah and the oil contracts and keeping the standard in US dollars . . . the list goes on and on

You (to SDW and gang of asslickers) may have hated the M Moore movie, but watching the pre-war convention of Marketeers salivating, very verbally, at the soon to be made money was, without any commentary, telling enough!

oh, let me guess, you actually never saw it and just hate the movie anyway.

I didn't see it and won't see it. I don't hate it. I do hate Michael Moore. It's amazing that you wil embrace everything that Fat Bastard says, yet dimiss every single word out of the Administration's mouth.
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post #51 of 79
3/14/07 at 6:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

The words of a true Patriot.

America needs more people who can put country over corporation and party.

I do not support war where by we go in and bust up a nation so that we can go in profiting from rebuilding what we tore up.

And what the HELL are we doing in IRAQ.

What about 911? were the hijackers from Iraq?

Those here who lick the boots of the war makers and profit from the death of our soldiers and the lives of innocent women and children in foreign lands are far worse than shameful...

There are no words low enough.

Fellowship

I'm so sick of your sanctimonious, holier-than-thou garbage.
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post #52 of 79
3/14/07 at 6:40am
  • e1618978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

right down to price controls for gasoline.

That is an incredibly bad idea. If we had price controls after Katrina, it would have caused hoarding and shortages. Not only that, but it would have prevented re-investment into new refineries, making the shortages worse and worse over time.

If you care about global warming, you should want high gas prices anyway. Low gas prices discourage investment in alternative energies, and promote increased consumption.
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post #53 of 79
3/14/07 at 8:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm so sick of your sanctimonious, holier-than-thou garbage.

Simple. DON''T read it.

Fellowship
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post #54 of 79
3/14/07 at 8:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I didn't see it and won't see it. I don't hate it. I do hate Michael Moore. It's amazing that you wil embrace everything that Fat Bastard says

All I can say is.... wow.. hateful willful ignorance.

And this makes you proud? You are happy with this way of life?

It seems not.

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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post #55 of 79
3/14/07 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Yea... we did it for the oil. That's why. I sure do love this cheap gas all of us are getting because we took over another country... I never thought I'd see 99c a gallon again. Thanks Republicans!

Its not in the interests of a company like Exxon-Mobile to drop prices like that, and there are many many factors that play into the cost at the pump. If you watch the oil market news, you may notice the price moving due to concerns around stability in the M.E., or in response to hostilities near refineries, and a host of reasons unrelated to the topic here. It is in the financial interests of a company like XOM to have a dangerous neighborhood in which to take its oil, assuming we have defenders, like the US Armed Forces plus the mercenaries. It is in their interests to slowly pump the oil, to create a scarcity (ie, OPEC).

Profiteering isn't supposed to help the average American, that's why some of the liberals here are getting upset. If there is instability, that'll drive oil->gas prices, and helps oil companies and defense contractors. If you buy stock in XOM and HAL, you make money when they see increased profits. Increased profits mean buyers pay more at the pump, but shareholders take home more in dividends and gains. This hurts the average consumer who has to pay higher prices.

Profiteering is wonderful. I think it'd be rad if more liberals bought these seal-clubbing companies. If we take over a considerable stake, then (a) we can change these companies with shareholder voting rights (ie, peaceful coup), and (b) profit.
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post #56 of 79
3/14/07 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

That is an incredibly bad idea. If we had price controls after Katrina, it would have caused hoarding and shortages. Not only that, but it would have prevented re-investment into new refineries, making the shortages worse and worse over time.

If you care about global warming, you should want high gas prices anyway. Low gas prices discourage investment in alternative energies, and promote increased consumption.

You made that up. And, you're focusing on one incident instead of what effect it would have on the broader market over time.
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post #57 of 79
3/14/07 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

All I can say is.... wow.. hateful willful ignorance.

And this makes you proud? You are happy with this way of life?

It seems not.

Fellowship

Yes, hateful willful ignorance. A good way to descrive Michael Moore. And no, he doesn't make me proud.
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post #58 of 79
3/14/07 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If you care about global warming, you should want high gas prices anyway. Low gas prices discourage investment in alternative energies, and promote increased consumption.

I agree about the higher gas prices. I saw $3.15/gallon here in SoCal yesterday by the way. My brother in law commutes 120 miles/day in a Suburban. Ouch.
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post #59 of 79
3/14/07 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilsch View Post

I agree about the higher gas prices. I saw $3.15/gallon here in SoCal yesterday by the way. My brother in law commutes 120 miles/day in a Suburban. Ouch.

I wouldn't even do that in a Prius.

I can't relate to these marathon commuters.
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post #60 of 79
3/14/07 at 10:49am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You made that up. And, you're focusing on one incident instead of what effect it would have on the broader market over time.

No - I'm not making it up. It works the same ways with all commodities - price controls cause shortages, because the price set by supply and demand is the price that will provide the commodity to the highest bidder without running out. If you set the price lower than the natural supply/demand set price, demand exceeds supply and you have shortages.

Also, look at the effect that low gas prices had in the 80s - alternative energy research dried up, and SUV sales skyrocketed.
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post #61 of 79
3/14/07 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No - I'm not making it up. It works the same ways with all commodities - price controls cause shortages, because the price set by supply and demand is the price that will provide the commodity to the highest bidder without running out. If you set the price lower than the natural supply/demand set price, demand exceeds supply and you have shortages.

Also, look at the effect that low gas prices had in the 80s - alternative energy research dried up, and SUV sales skyrocketed.

You're basing your assumption that if gas was held to say, $2.00 a gallon, there would be much larger demand than we have now. I disagree. Granted, if you start selling gas for 99 cents, we may have a problem.

I'm merely talking about caps. What we have now are largely artificial and speculative spikes. It often has nothing to do with supply and demand at all. It has to do with perception and the greed of oil companies making the largest profits in the history of the world off the backs of the middle class, who need...absolutely need the product to survive in the modern world. You can't really tell me that the recent price spike we've seen in gasoline (up 30 cents from a month or so ago) has to do with demand being higher.
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post #62 of 79
3/15/07 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I didn't see it and won't see it. I don't hate it. I do hate Michael Moore. It's amazing that you wil embrace everything that Fat Bastard says, yet dimiss every single word out of the Administration's mouth.

If I remember correctly, I was, and am very critical of much of that movie and Michael Moore in general . . . go ahead and search here . . . unlike you I actually think about the issues and ideas I support and dislike.
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--Franklin Miller.

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"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #63 of 79
3/15/07 at 10:36am
Willful ignorance . . . you probably have never seen a single movie by the man and yet you act like you know his positions and work in-and-out.

I will guarantee that you would be surprised by what you find in any of his films . . while also outright diliking portions, some of it just speeks for itself: like the conventioneer-marketers who were salivating at the cut-of-pir that was 'Iraq' just prior to the invasion . . .. MM didn't need to say anything, they said it all directly: 'gimme gimme gimme'
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--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #64 of 79
3/15/07 at 10:38am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You're basing your assumption that if gas was held to say, $2.00 a gallon, there would be much larger demand than we have now. I disagree. Granted, if you start selling gas for 99 cents, we may have a problem.

I'm merely talking about caps. What we have now are largely artificial and speculative spikes. It often has nothing to do with supply and demand at all. It has to do with perception and the greed of oil companies making the largest profits in the history of the world off the backs of the middle class, who need...absolutely need the product to survive in the modern world. You can't really tell me that the recent price spike we've seen in gasoline (up 30 cents from a month or so ago) has to do with demand being higher.

The only way that the prices could avoid being driven by supply and demand is if there is an illegal oil cartel controlling prices. Weather you know it or not, you are implying a cartel, and I doubt that you have any proof of one.

Prices are entirely driven by supply and demand, that is just how it works and you need a monopoly, cartel, or government price regulation to make it any other way (and all three are bad ideas). If one gas company raised prices beyond the supply/demand set norm, all the business would naturally flow to the other companies, so the supply/demand pricepoint is self-enforcing without a cartel.
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post #65 of 79
3/15/07 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The only way that the prices could avoid being driven by supply and demand is if there is an illegal oil cartel controlling prices. Weather you know it or not, you are implying a cartel, and I doubt that you have any proof of one.

Prices are entirely driven by supply and demand, that is just how it works and you need a monopoly, cartel, or government price regulation to make it any other way (and all three are bad ideas). If one gas company raised prices beyond the supply/demand set norm, all the business would naturally flow to the other companies, so the supply/demand pricepoint is self-enforcing without a cartel.

O-P-E-C
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post #66 of 79
3/15/07 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

No leftie seems to mind when the government spends billions and corporations make profit for causes THEY believe in. (eco-subsidies, et al)

Yeah, and those causes don't end up in the DEATHS OF OVER TWO THOUSAND AMERICANS and the wounding and maiming of TEN THOUSAND.

I'd like you to find a corporate profit scenario in which Democrats supported a cause that cost 1/3 OF TRILLION DOLLARS!

You guys will never get it. Ever.
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post #67 of 79
3/15/07 at 1:45pm
  • e1618978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

O-P-E-C

Neither of us was talking about the underlying price of oil, which is obviously influenced by OPEC. The price of gasoline has other factors in it besides the price of oil, which is what we were discussing.

You were suggesting GAS price controls, not OIL price controls. There is no cartel of gasoline producing companies setting the price of gas, it is set by supply and demand (and by the underlying price of oil, but only when demand is low enough for the price to fall down to bare margins).
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post #68 of 79
3/15/07 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Neither of us was talking about the underlying price of oil, which is obviously influenced by OPEC. The price of gasoline has other factors in it besides the price of oil, which is what we were discussing.

You were suggesting GAS price controls, not OIL price controls. There is no cartel of gasoline producing companies setting the price of gas, it is set by supply and demand (and by the underlying price of oil, but only when demand is low enough for the price to fall down to bare margins).

Right.

ExxonMobile

Chevron

Citgo

BP

Texaco

Lukoil

Sunoco

That should about cover it. It's not like there are 100s of companies competing.
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post #69 of 79
3/15/07 at 6:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

ExxonMobile

So we just disagree. Like Sammy Jo, you believe that this whole thing is controlled by secret cabals of evil doers meeting in secret (oil company executive in your case, ??? in hers).

But I think that you should have to prove cartel like behavior as part of your justification for price controls. In fact, price controls would still be the wrong answer there, the executives should just go to jail if they are breaking the law, and we should continue to use supply and demand to set gas prices.
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post #70 of 79
3/15/07 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Yeah, and those causes don't end up in the DEATHS OF OVER TWO THOUSAND AMERICANS and the wounding and maiming of TEN THOUSAND.

I'd like you to find a corporate profit scenario in which Democrats supported a cause that cost 1/3 OF TRILLION DOLLARS!

You guys will never get it. Ever.



Hmmm.. didn't a Democrat spend billions perpetuate a war that ended up the in DEATHS OF OVER FIFTY-EIGHT THOUSAND AMERICANS and wounding and maiming ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THREE THOUSAND? And it took a Republican prez to end it?

Corporate Profit Scenario? Sure. It's called the prescription drug benefit, and it's going to cost more than Iraq eventually, right into the pockets of the CORPORATE drug companies. Shazzam!
Govt entitlement programs that provide tangible products make corporations BILLIONS in profit... contrary to liberal myth, these things don't just "appear." Taxpayers buy them.

I get it real well. Iraq money spent was poorly spent, but to pretend that "its those Republicans" when Dem's spent us into oblivion for 40+ years, well, that's just dishonest. The current screaming about the deficit is because the Republicans finally out Democrat-ed the Democrats with wasteful government spending- and their voters punished them mightily for it.
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post #71 of 79
3/15/07 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So we just disagree. Like Sammy Jo, you believe that this whole thing is controlled by secret cabals of evil doers meeting in secret (oil company executive in your case, ??? in hers).

But I think that you should have to prove cartel like behavior as part of your justification for price controls. In fact, price controls would still be the wrong answer there, the executives should just go to jail if they are breaking the law, and we should continue to use supply and demand to set gas prices.

The thing is it's not a conspiracy. It's a defacto monopoly. There are a few large oil companies that essentially operate as one. They don't need to engage in collusion, because they all know what the others are charging. There's no reason to compete when everyone can get rich charging a certain price. They know consumers have nowhere to go. It's not like most people can stop using gasoline or decide to buy Brand X instead. There's just not enough real competition for that.
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post #72 of 79
3/18/07 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So we just disagree. Like Sammy Jo, you believe that this whole thing is controlled by secret cabals of evil doers meeting in secret (oil company executive in your case, ??? in hers).

But I think that you should have to prove cartel like behavior as part of your justification for price controls. In fact, price controls would still be the wrong answer there, the executives should just go to jail if they are breaking the law, and we should continue to use supply and demand to set gas prices.

People meet in non-public situations all the time. That is life; its human nature. Corporations do it in board meetings. Criminals do it. The military does it. Revolutionaries. Lawyers and their clients. So do schoolkids, juries, sports teams, you name it! Politicians do it too (in "Cabinet" meetings (derived from Cabal). There is nothing strange or "other worldly" about this... and sometimes people do meet in secret to plan something with criminal or unlawful intent. Thats called a conspiracy. It happens every day, in every village, town, city, county, province, nation, or whatever. Its a part of the human experience. It is absurd and unrealistic to deny it, and it is equally absurd to deny it when people who are "well connected, respected and in positions of power" do it.
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post #73 of 79
3/18/07 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

People meet in non-public situations all the time. That is life; its human nature. Corporations do it in board meetings. Criminals do it. The military does it. Revolutionaries. Lawyers and their clients. So do schoolkids, juries, sports teams, you name it! Politicians do it too (in "Cabinet" meetings (derived from Cabal). There is nothing strange or "other worldly" about this... and sometimes people do meet in secret to plan something with criminal or unlawful intent. Thats called a conspiracy. It happens every day, in every village, town, city, county, province, nation, or whatever. Its a part of the human experience. It is absurd and unrealistic to deny it, and it is equally absurd to deny it when people who are "well connected, respected and in positions of power" do it.

Correct. THEY RULE
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post #74 of 79
3/18/07 at 1:34pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

People meet in non-public situations all the time. That is life; its human nature. Corporations do it in board meetings. Criminals do it. The military does it. Revolutionaries. Lawyers and their clients. So do schoolkids, juries, sports teams, you name it! Politicians do it too (in "Cabinet" meetings (derived from Cabal). There is nothing strange or "other worldly" about this... and sometimes people do meet in secret to plan something with criminal or unlawful intent. Thats called a conspiracy. It happens every day, in every village, town, city, county, province, nation, or whatever. Its a part of the human experience. It is absurd and unrealistic to deny it, and it is equally absurd to deny it when people who are "well connected, respected and in positions of power" do it.

But they have a vested interest in undercutting each others prices. Why would there be cartel behavior between oil companies and not, say, between Wal-Mart and Target? Wal-Mart and Target could get together and fix prices on napkins, but they don't, and neither do the oil companies fix prices on gas.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070501486.html
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post #75 of 79
3/18/07 at 3:13pm
I like the part where KBR is both the only company in the world that could handle this AND the most unprofitable company in the world and on the brink of collapse. That part was good.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #76 of 79
3/18/07 at 4:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I like the part where KBR is both the only company in the world that could handle this AND the most unprofitable company in the world and on the brink of collapse. That part was good.

That actually makes sense - if the business was regulated down to such a small profit margin by government agencies that set prices, few competitors would be motivated to compete in the segment.
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post #77 of 79
3/18/07 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

That actually makes sense - if the business was regulated down to such a small profit margin by government agencies that set prices, few competitors would be motivated to compete in the segment.

So THAT'S why they were awarded no-bid contracts!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #78 of 79
3/18/07 at 4:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

So THAT'S why they were awarded no-bid contracts!

Do you think that they were lying on their tax returns and annual report? Because the low profit thing is a fact unless you think they were lying to their shareholders and the government.
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post #79 of 79
3/18/07 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Do you think that they were lying on their tax returns and annual report? Because the low profit thing is a fact unless you think they were lying to their shareholders and the government.

Nope. I'm not questioning any facts. I think Halliburton, like Enron, is a puzzle. But as I said, I find it very interesting that the government awarded a no-bid contract to a company that was apparently pretty shitty at doing business AND that is the only company in the world that could've done the job.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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