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Apple's next-generation iMacs to add a touch of grace - Page 7

post #241 of 284
Is this LED-backlit panel destined for the next iMac rev?
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post #242 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

Is this LED-backlit panel destined for the next iMac rev?

Thanks for that link (although it's a shame the writers don't seem to appreciate the difference between screen size and resolution - "22 inch not wide enough for HD"? "24 inches a better width to support Vista's sidebar"? ). This is great news - up until now, the largest screen with L.E.D. lighting that I was aware of was 13" or so (widescreen). I was therefore expecting, with the next update, for the 15" MB Pro to go L.E.D. backlighting, but not the 17". This announcement would suggest that it is at least possible to get the 17" lit with L.E.D. backlighting.

As for the iMac - L.E.D. backlighting is more expensive at the moment, so I don't think we'll see it in an iMac. Hopefully the next update to the Cinema Displays will have it, though.
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post #243 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

Is this LED-backlit panel destined for the next iMac rev?

I hope so but I don't think Apple can afford to go LED at iMac sizing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Thanks for that link (although it's a shame the writers don't seem to appreciate the difference between screen size and resolution - "22 inch not wide enough for HD"? "24 inches a better width to support Vista's sidebar"? ). This is great news - up until now, the largest screen with L.E.D. lighting that I was aware of was 13" or so (widescreen). I was therefore expecting, with the next update, for the 15" MB Pro to go L.E.D. backlighting, but not the 17". This announcement would suggest that it is at least possible to get the 17" lit with L.E.D. backlighting.

As for the iMac - L.E.D. backlighting is more expensive at the moment, so I don't think we'll see it in an iMac. Hopefully the next update to the Cinema Displays will have it, though.

Oh God I know I'm going to love LED backlighting. Frankly I'm surprised about the Contrast Ratios that Samsung is claiming here. I would have thought that they'd be higher than 1000:1

Infact after checking out Samsungs sight I'd guess that this number is incorrct. I bet the CR is 10,000:1 which is more inline with LED technology.
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post #244 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I hope so but I don't think Apple can afford to go LED at iMac sizing.





Oh God I know I'm going to love LED backlighting. Frankly I'm surprised about the Contrast Ratios that Samsung is claiming here. I would have thought that they'd be higher than 1000:1

Infact after checking out Samsungs sight I'd guess that this number is incorrct. I bet the CR is 10,000:1 which is more inline with LED technology.

You're mixing up OLED with LED-backlit LCD.

LCD is still LCD, and inherently has contrast issues.

OLED is where the real breakthrough in contrast ratios comes in.
post #245 of 284
Dude, I just got a 20-in iMac...like on April 5th, my b-day. Does Apple have any type of exchange policy if they come out with new ones right after my purchase? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
post #246 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

You're mixing up OLED with LED-backlit LCD.

LCD is still LCD, and inherently has contrast issues.

OLED is where the real breakthrough in contrast ratios comes in.

That would depend on how the LED backlight is implemented. If you have one LED per pixel, that provides real possibilities for improving contrast.
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post #247 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

You're mixing up OLED with LED-backlit LCD.

LCD is still LCD, and inherently has contrast issues.

OLED is where the real breakthrough in contrast ratios comes in.

No I'm pretty familiar with both. LED backlighting for LCD improves contrast rations greatly because an LED can shut all they way off so that blacks now can truly become black. Anytime you see a LED based backlight you should see a corollary bump in Contrast Ratio because of this However CCFL backlighting has gotten much better as witnessed by the 15,000:1 ratios of some panels

56 inch 10,000:1 CR DLP

56 inch 4,000:1 CR DLP

Taking this technology and placing it in a LCD TV is much more expensive.
Samsung's LNR460D is supposed to be shipping but at around $8000 so I'm
not thinking that any large scale LED based panels will be affordable for the foreseeable
future. I love that they are thinner, cooler and have no mercury though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

That would depend on how the LED backlight is implemented. If you have one LED per pixel, that provides real possibilities for improving contrast.
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post #248 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I hope so but I don't think Apple can afford to go LED at iMac sizing.

Good point, I wondered if this was something that was going to start off at the pro level and work its way down. I don't know how much this is going to cost.

Edit: I notice it has 250cd/m2 brightness. Isn't that dim compared to today's iMacs and Cinema Displays? Aren't they in the 400cd/m2 range now?
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post #249 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

That would depend on how the LED backlight is implemented. If you have one LED per pixel, that provides real possibilities for improving contrast.

That's right. But, now we're really talking expensive!

Also, the power use would be much too high. This would essentially an LED monitor behind the LCD screen.

What companies are talking about is sections of the screen being turned up or down. not ideal, but likely good enough.
post #250 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

Good point, I wondered if this was something that was going to start off at the pro level and work its way down. I don't know how much this is going to cost.

Edit: I notice it has 250cd/m2 brightness. Isn't that dim compared to today's iMacs and Cinema Displays? Aren't they in the 400cd/m2 range now?

Yes, but it doesn't really matter. Ultimate brightness specs don't matter unless you are in a very high lighting situation.

Generally, once you correct the monitor for color, the brightness comes way down. LED backlighting loses less brightness over its lifetime than flourescent does, so you won't be turning it up as much as it ages.
post #251 of 284
post #252 of 284
Quote:

I'm in need of a new computer that I hope to keep a few years (this Dell is 6 years old)I'm hoping (yet not holding my breath) that Apple releases a mid-priced, mid-powered tower soon. I don't need the power and HD/RAM options of the Pro, nor do I want to pay for them. If I were to "settle" for a new iMac, I can forget about new screen technology like SED and OLED. I'd have to replace the whole computer instead of just the monitor.
post #253 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

That would depend on how the LED backlight is implemented. If you have one LED per pixel, that provides real possibilities for improving contrast.

Sure, if you want to pay $50,000 in patent licensing fees to BrightSide

Besides, they don't make LEDs that small unless you're going for an OLED panel.
post #254 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

No I'm pretty familiar with both. LED backlighting for LCD improves contrast rations greatly because an LED can shut all they way off so that blacks now can truly become black. Anytime you see a LED based backlight you should see a corollary bump in Contrast Ratio because of this However CCFL backlighting has gotten much better as witnessed by the 15,000:1 ratios of some panels

56 inch 10,000:1 CR DLP

56 inch 4,000:1 CR DLP

Taking this technology and placing it in a LCD TV is much more expensive.
Samsung's LNR460D is supposed to be shipping but at around $8000 so I'm
not thinking that any large scale LED based panels will be affordable for the foreseeable
future. I love that they are thinner, cooler and have no mercury though.

Right, but with LED, it's still one backlight, that's on or off. In other words, if you have one white pixel on the screen, then the back needs to be fully on. This means that all those "black" pixels are a nice gray.

On those TVs, they're essentially lying to oyu about the contrast ratio: they're comparing the black when it's fully off, to the white when it's fully on.

It's completely irrelevant: you only care about contrast ratio when there's an image on the screen. Manufacturers that play that game are flat out lying to you.

LED doesn't offer any effective contrast ratio benefits over any other backlight technology.
post #255 of 284
Quote:

Has the uneven color fading issue been resolved for OLED? I recall that blue fades the fastest, and since people seem to like their displays to have a bluish tint, then that's a problem.
post #256 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Dude, I just got a 20-in iMac...like on April 5th, my b-day. Does Apple have any type of exchange policy if they come out with new ones right after my purchase? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

A member since 04 and over 500 posts do you really need to ask this?

Anyway, in a word, NO. Apple doesn't do trade-ins but I think they do (or did) have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee (maybe not anymore so you'd need to check). That being said, I wouldn't be holding my breath for any of this speculation to become reality (not in the next 25 days at any rate)...

Dave
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post #257 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Has the uneven color fading issue been resolved for OLED? I recall that blue fades the fastest, and since people seem to like their displays to have a bluish tint, then that's a problem.

It's always going to be true that blue fades fasteat.

Today, even after all the development, greens fade faster than reds. It's in the nature of the higher energy bands.

But, once they get to over 10 thousand hours, it begins to get better. From what I know, the blue is up to almost 30 thousand.

But, as OLEDS fade fairly slowly altogether, the color can be adjusted over time. Mostly, we don't use our monitors too much above 150 cd/m², so there is plenty of room.

Even with CRT's, the blue is a problem. That's why we can't adjust them to 5,000k properly, and have to settle for 6,500k. It's why the Europeans had 6,500k as their standard for so long, and we have been moving to it here as well. Only monitors such as the Barco's were brightenough to go to 5,000k.
post #258 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post

A member since 04 and over 500 posts do you really need to ask this?

Anyway, in a word, NO. Apple doesn't do trade-ins but I think they do (or did) have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee (maybe not anymore so you'd need to check). That being said, I wouldn't be holding my breath for any of this speculation to become reality (not in the next 25 days at any rate)...

Dave

Thanks. Yup, I needed to ask, because, believe it or not, it is my first Mac since having one (Apple II GS) as a kid). I've been using Macs (with OS X) at various employments over the years, but never got around to getting one at home.

But this totally answered my question so thank you.
post #259 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

OK, but where, exactly, is the "fat" in the current design that Ives is supposedly being charged with removing?

We know Steve is absolutely obsessed with making everything as small and thin as possible, so it's not like the "chin" was some arbitrary element-- clearly the current iMac needs the space so it can be thin as possible (the alternative would be to drop the chin and make the whole machine about an inch thicker).

And we know that getting overly aggressive about pushing the size/heat dissipation envelope has caused problems with thermal management on some earlier machines.

So even if new iMacs are using the latest Intel chipset, I don't recall reading about radical reductions in power consumption/heat, so how do you make everything smaller without it melting?

People are acting like the current machine's size was just aesthetics, but if they could have made it any smaller, they would have. I can't see what's changed that would allow that shrink now. Redesign, new colors, move things around, new materials, sure. But radically downsized? Don't buy it.

My guess is that the screen slab will be 'thinned' once the hard drive is replaced with a 'flash' and bits like usb keyboard and mouse ports, which contribute to thickening the slab, are built into the pedestal.
post #260 of 284
I'm hoping there will be touch screen capabilities. I think its possible with iphone going that way. Even if it is just in a limited sense, it will be a quantum leap in static design.

Look: http://ThunkDifferent.com

Touch: http://Trolltouch.com
post #261 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Peters View Post

My guess is that the screen slab will be 'thinned' once the hard drive is replaced with a 'flash' and bits like usb keyboard and mouse ports, which contribute to thickening the slab, are built into the pedestal.

Nobody is replacing the hard drives in iMacs with flash drives.
That's ridiculous, and these silly rumours must stop before expectations get out of hand.

iMacs are Apple's gateway to the Digital Lifestyle. High-resolution photos, High Definition home movies and buying lots and lots of movies and music from the iTMS means that iMac hard drives need more space than ever.

Flash tops out right now at 32GB or so, and the smallest hard drive in an iMac is 160GB.
Not to mention the problems with wear and tear from daily use and pricing issues.

Flash may have its uses in narrower markets and portable computers, but iMac hard drives aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
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post #262 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Flash tops out right now at 32GB or so, and the smallest hard drive in an iMac is 160GB.
Not to mention the problems with wear and tear from daily use and pricing issues.

This talk isn't just isolated with desktop computers. I've read to many comments across many forums of people expecting--and wanting--NAND in the video iPod. To think that Apple would more than halve the capacity while doubling the cost is just insane.
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post #263 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunkDifferent.com View Post

I'm hoping there will be touch screen capabilities. I think its possible with iphone going that way. Even if it is just in a limited sense, it will be a quantum leap in static design.

Touch screen is intriguing and probably underestimated.

We think of using the touch screen as we do our mouse now - and that would not function very well. Your hands would get tired, it's slower than grabbing the mouse, etc. We HAVE to think of it this way because the OS is designed for mouse input.

The iPhone changes that - you can do things a mouse can't do. It's not a major thing though.

So lets reinvent an iMac just quickly.
Version 1: Looks kind of like a 24 inch laptop - with a screen integrated with a keyboard, at a slight angle. Then we put on a new OS with resolution independence so you can use that iPhone zoom function to zoom WAY out and see all your documents (like expose) or zoom way in to get into the minutae.

Then we set users on it. They play. They lose some documents etc on the infinitely sizeable screen. So we need some new interface paradigms to stop that. They find some movements very cumbersome. They also use the system in some ways we didn't expect AT ALL.

Version 2: The size of the screen changes, the angles it can be turned to, positioning of keyboard. The OS is redesigned. Then we set the users on it... and learn a whole lot more.

Oh, we don't just have users playing with their music, browsing the web, & writing word documents... they're watching TV, making movies, slideshows, pushing things to iPods & AppleTVs, networking with other machines, etc.

edit: version 2 is deliberately vaguer since I don't know what was learned in version 1. Imagine what version 3 would be, or version 4! (you'd want to be on the 4th iteration before looking at genuine paradigm shifting products).

Anyway, if Apple is building touch screen and redefining the interaction... it could delay things a bit for hardware and software. And the 1st generation won't be perfect - and could sink, swim, or fly Apple (though Apple wouldn't be betting all their horses on it... would it?)
post #264 of 284
i would much rather some small screen with a pen (8inch) that sits at the side where the mouse was so that i can use my hand as a pointer.

kind of like a tablet but a screen.
post #265 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Nobody is replacing the hard drives in iMacs with flash drives.
That's ridiculous, and these silly rumours must stop before expectations get out of hand.

iMacs are Apple's gateway to the Digital Lifestyle. High-resolution photos, High Definition home movies and buying lots and lots of movies and music from the iTMS means that iMac hard drives need more space than ever.

Flash tops out right now at 32GB or so, and the smallest hard drive in an iMac is 160GB.
Not to mention the problems with wear and tear from daily use and pricing issues.

Flash may have its uses in narrower markets and portable computers, but iMac hard drives aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Ah, the voice of reason. Quoted for truth.
post #266 of 284
Since the other thread has been locked, I post the link to the original rumor here:

New iMacs at WWDC?
post #267 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Since the other thread has been locked, I post the link to the original rumor here:

New iMacs at WWDC?

Looprumors can be wrong as often as they like, they tried to suggest that iMac would be updated at NAB too, but those quacks certainly didn't explain why that would happen when there was nothing about it to update yet, and didn't explain how iMac even fits in with the Nab show. There wasn't even one on display there that I remember.

Now that Santa Rosa-based systems should be trickling out any time now, if not already, I think it's more likely that any possible near term update to the iMac would be announced a couple weeks before or a couple weeks after WWDC rather than bother developers with an update that doesn't apply to them.
post #268 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Looprumors can be wrong as often as they like, they tried to suggest that iMac would be updated at NAB too, but those quacks certainly didn't explain why that would happen when there was nothing about it to update yet, and didn't explain how iMac even fits in with the Nab show. There wasn't even one on display there that I remember.

Now that Santa Rosa-based systems should be trickling out any time now, if not already, I think it's more likely that any possible near term update to the iMac would be announced a couple weeks before or a couple weeks after WWDC rather than bother developers with an update that doesn't apply to them.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7154
post #269 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Looprumors can be wrong as often as they like...

Sure, Looprumors is not exactly what we call a reputable rumor site, so let's see another one:

Death knell tolls for 17-inch iMac



So, what are we being left with here? Just the 20" and 24" model? Of course it is not the first time that the flat panel iMac line has "only" two display sizes. But if this is proved true, it may potentially be a problem for many people, unless the new prices take care of that.
post #270 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Sure, Looprumors is not exactly what we call a reputable rumor site, so let's see another one:

Death knell tolls for 17-inch iMac



So, what are we being left with here? Just the 20" and 24" model? Of course it is not the first time that the flat panel iMac line has "only" two display sizes. But if this is proved true, it may potentially be a problem for many people, unless the new prices take care of that.

If it's only the 17-inch that uses dithering then maybe that's why they are getting rid of it. The 20" display quality isn't that great though and it looked to me like it was sparkly too.

Nonetheless, if they drop the price on the 20" and the design is really nice, I could see it being a popular move. If they don't reduce the price, they are going to have to fill that big gap bewteen it and the Mini with something.
post #271 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

So, what are we being left with here? Just the 20" and 24" model? Of course it is not the first time that the flat panel iMac line has "only" two display sizes. But if this is proved true, it may potentially be a problem for many people, unless the new prices take care of that.

There would still be three options.

Just like the MacBook, the bottom configuration (20") would come in two flavors, one of which would be a stripped-down, school-ready edition. The 24" would be the premium choice, like the Black MacBook.
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post #272 of 284
..no message..
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post #273 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

There would still be three options.

Just like the MacBook, the bottom configuration (20") would come in two flavors, one of which would be a stripped-down, school-ready edition. The 24" would be the premium choice, like the Black MacBook.

I believe he was referring to monitor sizes.

Two sizes had been the norm from July 2002 when the 17" P79 swivel head iMac was introduced up until September 2006 with the 24" iMac.
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post #274 of 284
When we can get around the NYC Bd. of Ed. attempts to force laptops upon us, we buy 20" iMacs.

17" has been passé for a while now.
post #275 of 284
LCD prices have been dropping steadily. There's a new article at audioholics.com stating that LCD prices have hit an all-time low and may be starting to rise again.

So, it might even be possible that Apple will introduce a larger LCD screen if the costs are low enough. 27" TV/iMac, anyone?
post #276 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Sure, Looprumors is not exactly what we call a reputable rumor site, so let's see another one:

Death knell tolls for 17-inch iMac



So, what are we being left with here? Just the 20" and 24" model? Of course it is not the first time that the flat panel iMac line has "only" two display sizes. But if this is proved true, it may potentially be a problem for many people, unless the new prices take care of that.

may be 19" coming

19" 1440x900
22" 1680x1050
and
24" 1900x1200

what is the next size 27"? Dell has one monitor 27" 1900x1200

i used 17" 1280x1024 about three years and 19" @ work the same resolution for about 3 months, i like the 19" more than 17". At home using 20" ACD.

scaling up the size is nice though i am in early 30s it is easier to read in 19 than in 17"

advantage
1. more space for cooling and additional RAM slots

disadvantage
2. Bigger footprint and shipping costs

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post #277 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanmugam View Post

may be 19" coming

19" 1440x900
22" 1680x1050
and
24" 1900x1200

what is the next size 27"? Dell has one monitor 27" 1900x1200

i used 17" 1280x1024 about three years and 19" @ work the same resolution for about 3 months, i like the 19" more than 17". At home using 20" ACD.

scaling up the size is nice though i am in early 30s it is easier to read in 19 than in 17"

advantage
1. more space for cooling and additional RAM slots

disadvantage
2. Bigger footprint and shipping costs

That seems to be too close together for Apple.

Apple likes to differenciate more. That's why there was a 17, a 20, and a 24 iMac, and a 17, a 20, an old 23, and then a jump to 20. I can believe Apple will change to a 24, as that is what's being made in quantity now, rather than the older 23" size.

20" is pushing 19's out.
post #278 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

There would still be three options.

Just like the MacBook, the bottom configuration (20") would come in two flavors, one of which would be a stripped-down, school-ready edition. The 24" would be the premium choice, like the Black MacBook.

Yes, of course. The point is not exactly display size but price. If Apple manages to keep a 20" version priced if not exactly at least close to the existing 17" model, then it is OK. But the 1030 euros price tag of the existing 17" low end model is rather a dream today at 20" in Apple land. Seen from another perspective, this is perhaps one of the reasons Apple is going to drop the 17" model.
post #279 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I believe he was referring to monitor sizes.

Yes, I was referring to that as a means to offer more varied price options.
post #280 of 284
If the 20- and 24-inch only story is true, I can already imagine what Apple will be doing:

20-inch: 2GHz
- 1GB of RAM
- 250GB hard drive
- GMA X3100 graphics
- possibly no Bluetooth or Apple Remote

20-inch: 2.2GHz
- 1GB of RAM
- 400GB hard drive
- 128MB ATI Radeon HD 2600 (256MB option)

24-inch: 2.2GHz
- 2GB of RAM
- 400GB hard drive
- 256MB GeForce 8500 GT (256MB GeForce 8600 GT option)

I don't even want to speculate on prices, though. Apple can easily build a $1299 (or even $1199) 20-inch iMac if it wants to. But can it crack $999? Only if component prices are low enough (particularly LCDs). And I hope Apple doesn't stick its base model with a Combo drive. This is 2007!
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