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Iran Captures and Holds British Sailors - Page 6

post #201 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Always interesting watching Seg's thought process.

The world sees Iranian leadership acting like assholes, Seg claims they are 1)wise 2)acting with integrity 3)justified 4)standing up to US/Israeli aggression.

Finally no longer able to rationally defend these positions, he admits they are acting like assholes. But can only bring himself to acknowledge this reality by spinning it to again blame the US and the zionist jews.

It is sort of a shame, because Seg is obviously a highly intelligent person who is able to put together some of the most compelling arguments on these boards. Sad then, that his world view is so bitter and hateful towards certain groups that he allows himself to make such weak arguments on some topics.

Couldn't have said it better.
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post #202 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And how's that been working out for us?

Not sure what you're suggesting here. Should we stop being the world's police? Of course, then you'd be screaming that we weren't doing anything when our assistance was needed.
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post #203 of 367
Just say the US does go to war with Iran.

What do you think the rest of the Arab world will do?
post #204 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

5) They translate 'Zionism must be destroyed' as 'wipe Israel off the map'.

So should religious zealots of every stripe. But I don't see you calling for the destruction of extremist moslems. Just Jewish/Isreali ones.

Heh...he's an american plant. That must be the absolute dumbest thing I've seen on this board...you win!

Vinea
post #205 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

So should religious zealots of every stripe. But I don't see you calling for the destruction of extremist moslems. Just Jewish/Isreali ones.

Heh...he's an american plant. That must be the absolute dumbest thing I've seen on this board...you win!

Vinea

Zionists are not religious.

They even persecute religious Jews which is one reason why there were Rabbis attending the Iranian anti-Zionism Conference.

So...you are wrong. I am not calling for the destruction of Jewish religious Zealots (if such there be) as I view Judaism as a genuine revelation from God.

Re 'US plant' - why not? Do you deny the MEK terrorists are US created, funded and backed?

If you look at their ideology it is very little different from Ahmedinejad's.
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post #206 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

Just say the US does go to war with Iran.

What do you think the rest of the Arab world will do?

The Arab World is no friend of Iran.

Most of it is totally on board with the US and has been for decades. Saudi is as scared of Iran as Israel is.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #207 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

Just say the US does go to war with Iran.

What do you think the rest of the Arab world will do?

Nothing, when the US invaded Afghanistan, the arab world did nothing, when the US invaded Iraq it did nothing, when Israel invaded Lebanon, it did nothing, and when the US/Uk invade Iran, they will do even less than nothing, if that is even possible, as iranians are not arabs for the most part, but even if they were they would do nothing..

Fact is the arab world is not capable to do anything, they are economically and military too weak, and politically they are too splintered.

What would happen though is an increase in terroristic activities, espescially by shia-groups but also by sunni ones, but beyond that nothing.

The times, when the arab world could use their oil as a weapon are over, in Saudi-Arabia and Iraq there are US-military-bases to ensure that.

Egypt could close the suez-canal and Iran could destroy oil-ships travelling in the gulf-regions with rockets, but all these can be circumvented by the increased use of pipelines.

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #208 of 367
I found a rare picture of segovius working at his computer.
post #209 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

I found a rare picture of segovius working at his computer.



I don't see him as the buisness suit type.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #210 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

I don't see him as the buisness suit type.

No, and where are the sultry temptresses that surround me waiting on my every whim?

This is clearly yet another Government fake concocted by the totalitarian lackeys of the international Wall-Street plutocratic running dogs of Imperial Chauvinism and their fascist allies the Bush and Blair New World Order......

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #211 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No, and where are the sultry temptresses that surround me waiting on my every whim?

This is clearly yet another Government fake concocted by the totalitarian lackeys of the international Wall-Street plutocratic running dogs of Imperial Chauvinism and their fascist allies the Bush and Blair New World Order......


Nah, I made it in my basement when I was loaded.
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post #212 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Re 'US plant' - why not? Do you deny the MEK terrorists are US created, funded and backed?

Dubious. Most information on the subject comes from blogs. Secondly, it's not clear that MEK is actually a terrorist organization. They are currently trying to get removed from our list of terror organizations. Thirdly, I can't seem to find any direct evidence that the US is sponsoring or funding "terror attacks" in Iran. From what I've found, we do harbor this group and protect them from Iran's government, which they are of course dedicated to overthrowing. I'm not saying I agree with this, but it's not quite the same as what you're claiming.
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post #213 of 367
This issue is without a doubt exactly what George Bush and Tony Blair wanted. They needed an international incident just like this to increase the possibility of starting the war over which they have they have been obsessing.

EVERYONE... READ THIS ARTICLE

I am quite amazed that the Daily Mail, a UK newspaper with a usual content of "trivia and pabulum", has decided to publish this piece by the former Chief of the (UK) Foreign Office's Maritime Section. It clearly demonstrates that Downing Street and the MoD DELIBERATELY FAKED MAPS in order to call Iran on this.

Where's V?

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #214 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

EVERYONE... READ THIS ARTICLE

It clearly demonstrates that Downing Street and the MoD DELIBERATELY FAKED MAPS in order to call Iran on this.

Where's V?



Doesn't say that at all. Can ye read English OK? ;-). Try reading the article an not reacting to the headline. LOL!
post #215 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficerDigby View Post

Doesn't say that at all. Can ye read English OK? ;-). Try reading the article an not reacting to the headline. LOL!

Quote:
I have news for you. Those boundaries are fake. They were drawn up by the MoD. They are not agreed or recognised by any international authority.

Seems fairly clear.

But then again perhaps he is using the word 'fake' in the well-known winger definition of 'totally and unerringly accurate, carved in stone Gospel from Mt Sanai, beyond dispute and utterly legitimate'.
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post #216 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficerDigby View Post

Doesn't say that at all. Can ye read English OK? ;-). Try reading the article an not reacting to the headline. LOL!

Even that very limited agreement is arguably no longer in force. Since it was reached in 1975, a war has been fought over it, and ten-year reviews - necessary because waters and sandbanks in this region move about dramatically - have never been carried out.

But what about the map the Ministry of Defence produced on Tuesday, with territorial boundaries set out by a clear red line, and the co-ordinates of the incident marked in relation to it?

I have news for you. Those boundaries are fake. They were drawn up by the MoD. They are not agreed or recognised by any international authority.


*************

I think you should perhaps learn to either read, or not to cherrypick an article.
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post #217 of 367
Attack of the teenage one-eyed mutant AI trolls. OK guys. Let's post teh whole article in order not to cherry pick.

Quote:
The Navy states the 14 men and one woman were on a routine patrol in rigid inflatables off Iraqi shores - Iran insists they were in its waters illegally.

Read Craig Murray's blog here

A few hours after the 15 were seized, Cdre Lambert said: 'There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they were in Iraqi territorial waters. Equally, the Iranians may well claim that they were in their territorial waters. The extent and definition of territorial waters in this part of the world is very complicated.'

Another day, another chance for Iran to heap on the humiliation
Iran crisis is Blair's true legacy
Family relieved by Iran footage

And his predecessor in command of the task force, Commodore Peter Lockwood of the Royal Australian Navy, said last October: 'No maritime border has been agreed upon by the countries.'

Both officers told the truth. It is the burial of this truth by No 10 spin doctors, and Tony Blair's remark that he is 'utterly certain' the incident took place within Iraqi territorial limits, that has escalated this from an incident to a crisis. Blair is being fatuous.

How can you be certain which side of a boundary you are when that boundary has never been drawn?

I am best known as the former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, but from 1989 to 1992 I headed the Foreign Office's maritime section. This included responsibility for territorial sea claims and for negotiating our own maritime boundaries. The expertise of the Royal Navy was invaluable.

For eight months I also worked with Royal Naval and Defence Intelligence Service personnel in the Embargo Surveillance Centre, a secret unit operating 24 hours a day from an underground command centre in Central London to prevent Iraqi attempts at weapons procurement.

We analysed information from intelligence and other sources, and could instruct Royal Naval craft in the Gulf to board and inspect individual ships. I was responsible for getting the political clearance for operations just like the one now in question, in this exact location. So I know what I'm talking about.

There is no agreed boundary in the Northern Gulf, either between Iran and Iraq or between Iraq and Kuwait. The Iran-Iraq border has been agreed inside the Shatt al-Arab waterway, because there it is also the land border. But that agreement does not extend beyond the low tide line of the coast.

Even that very limited agreement is arguably no longer in force. Since it was reached in 1975, a war has been fought over it, and ten-year reviews - necessary because waters and sandbanks in this region move about dramatically - have never been carried out.

But what about the map the Ministry of Defence produced on Tuesday, with territorial boundaries set out by a clear red line, and the co-ordinates of the incident marked in relation to it?

I have news for you. Those boundaries are fake. They were drawn up by the MoD. They are not agreed or recognised by any international authority.

To put it at its most charitable, they are a potential boundary. It is accepted practice, where no boundary exists, to work by a rule-of-thumb idea of where a boundary, based on a median line between the two coasts, might be.

But to elevate that to a hard and fast boundary, and then base a major international incident on being a few hundred yards one side or the other, is out of order.

Negotiating a maritime boundary is horribly complicated. To set a median line you agree a series of triangulation points on both coastlines and do a geometric triangulation exercise to find a line running out from the coast.

Of course, both sides will argue about which triangulation points on the coast to use. You are allowed, for example, to draw a line across a bay entrance and use that as the coast, but there is plenty of room for the other side to argue over where that line is drawn.

That is only the start. For territorial seas you start at the low tide mark and uninhabited rocks and sandbanks count.

There is huge room for argument - ownership of a useless sandbank is not necessarily a settled thing. Then it really gets complex. What if the sandbank appears only at low tide or moves? In this area of the Gulf, sands shift endlessly.

It is, in short, impossible to say where a real, negotiated or adjudicated Iran-Iraq boundary might eventually lie. It is also why the instinct of both the Foreign Office and MoD was to play this quietly and negotiate our people back.

But the No10 spin doctors stepped in, seeing a propaganda opportunity to portray Blair as fighting evil Iranians.

Navy and Foreign Office experts were horrified at the notion of publishing that map.

In doing so we entrenched Blair's ridiculous boast that our 15 Navy personnel were definitely in Iraqi territorial seas, and claimed the right to dictate Iran's boundary.

It's not surprising Iraq backed British claims - the map is favourable to them. But it makes compromise on the captives very difficult.

Of course, the Iranians equally cannot say unilaterally that these are their territorial waters, and act as if they owned them.

In disputed waters it behoves everyone to act with caution and respect. Plainly the Iranians are not doing that.

None of this vindicates Iran's aggressive behaviour in holding the captives or the so-called confessions.

For Iran to detain the British sailors in these circumstances was provocative and bellicose.

To hold them for a few hours could have been taken as a legitimate, if over forceful way, of indicating their claim to the disputed waters in which the British personnel boarded a neutral vessel.

But Iranian behaviour in the past few days has tipped over into the plain illegal and indefensible.

However I have no doubt Blair is delighted at last to have a Middle East issue with popular support before May's elections.

Yes, Iran has a bad government that is behaving stupidly. But perhaps it is not alone. Both sides have to climb down. We have to state that no agreed border exists and that we had no intention of straying into Iranian waters.

The Iranian government should let our people go immediately. That is the way out of this mess for both sides.


Now I disagree with what you say here
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo

This issue is without a doubt exactly what George Bush and Tony Blair wanted. They needed an international incident just like this to increase the possibility of starting the war over which they have they have been obsessing.

EVERYONE... READ THIS ARTICLE

I am quite amazed that the Daily Mail, a UK newspaper with a usual content of "trivia and pabulum", has decided to publish this piece by the former Chief of the (UK) Foreign Office's Maritime Section. It clearly demonstrates that Downing Street and the MoD DELIBERATELY FAKED MAPS in order to call Iran on this.

Okey cokey? ;-)
post #218 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

This issue is without a doubt exactly what George Bush and Tony Blair wanted. They needed an international incident just like this to increase the possibility of starting the war over which they have they have been obsessing.

EVERYONE... READ THIS ARTICLE

I am quite amazed that the Daily Mail, a UK newspaper with a usual content of "trivia and pabulum", has decided to publish this piece by the former Chief of the (UK) Foreign Office's Maritime Section. It clearly demonstrates that Downing Street and the MoD DELIBERATELY FAKED MAPS in order to call Iran on this.

Where's V?


Actually, I think this is the incident you and the other left winger conspiracy wack-a doos have been waiting for. That's what I think.
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post #219 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficerDigby View Post

Attack of the teenage one-eyed mutant AI trolls. OK guys. Let's post teh whole article in order not to cherry pick.


Now I disagree with what you say here


Okey cokey? ;-)

That's why I posted the link, in order for people to read the entire article. Duh!
You ignored the part of the article that you find uncomfortable, or inconvenient, ie the factual part re. the Iraq-Iran maritime boundaries being faked, in order to "justify" the UK government's stand.
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post #220 of 367
Isn't the Okey-Cokey a dance your granddad does when he's a bit Brahms at weddings and Xmas?
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post #221 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Actually, I think this is the incident you and the other left winger conspiracy wack-a doos have been waiting for. That's what I think.

No, this is...

US jet fighters violate Iran's airspace: military


"US warplanes have violated Iranian airspace in the southwestern oil-rich province of Khuzestan, Al-Alam Arabic language news satellite channel quoted a local military chief as saying on Sunday.

"Two US aircraft trespassed into Iranian airspace northwest of (the southwestern port city of) Abadan before flying southwest into Iraq," a local Revolutionary Guards commander in Abadan identified only as Colonel Aqili was quoted as saying on the channel's website.

"The planes left white vapour trails, attracting the local people's attention," he said, without elaborating on when the alleged incursion took place.

The incident happened close to Iran's border with Iraq, where the US and British military are deployed in force.

The US is in a mounting diplomatic confrontation with Iran over its uranium enrichment and Western suspicions that Tehran is bent on developing nuclear weapons, a charge vehemently denied by Iran.

Washington says it wants a diplomatic solution to the nuclear standoff, but it has never ruled out a military option.

Tensions have spiked since Iran's seizure on March 23 of 15 British marines and sailors for allegedly entering Iranian waters.

Iran says the Britons illegally entered its territorial waters while London insists they were in Iraqi waters on a anti-smuggling patrol under UN mandate."



The Americans ur comin' violating ur airspace!

post #222 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

That's why I posted the link, in order for people to read the entire article. Duh!
You ignored the part of the article that you find uncomfortable, or inconvenient, ie the factual part re. the Iraq-Iran maritime boundaries being faked, in order to "justify" the UK government's stand.

What, stand?

Iran has said the UK govt. should apologize for putting UK seamen in Iranian waters. The UK responds and says that they were in Iraqi water's according to the maps they use.

You imply that the article states that the maps were made up to cause an incident.

If there are 'no maps' how can Iran demand apology for UK crossing the border?

You've implied that that UK govt. has set this up as a pretext to war, and faked the maps carte blanche. I will admit Blair has taken the wrong approach to resolve this issue. I think he knows it now. It would be appreciated if US would just STFU on this, so we can fix it thanks boys. (Particularly the Ape-man currently acting as President).

As for your over-arching interpretation of events based on a very small part of a blog that actually gives a reasoned opinion critical of both sides. I would suggest you put your other eye back-in you one-eyed troll boy.
post #223 of 367
UK going about fixing the situation now thanks.

http://tinyurl.com/2pv49t
Quote:
Diplomacy

Earlier, Britain signalled it was ready to defuse the crisis by discussing operations in the Gulf with Tehran, and by stating the Royal Navy would never enter Iranian waters without seeking permission.

The offer was described by senior Ministry of Defence officials as a "confidence-building" measure, but would not involve an apology, nor acceptance of the claim the patrol was in Iranian waters when captured by Revolutionary Guards on March 23. "We are anxious that this matter be resolved as quickly as possible, and that it be resolved by diplomatic means, and we are bending every single effort to that," the defence secretary, Des Browne, told BBC TV. "It's not my intention to go through the detail of that blow by blow, and it wouldn't be appropriate to do that, but we are in direct bilateral communication with the Iranians."

The bid comes at a time of hardening attitudes in Tehran, where hundreds yesterday abruptly ended a mood of public apathy towards the crisis by demonstrating outside the British embassy. Several, mostly volunteers and pro-government students, threw rocks and firecrackers Riot police fired tear gas

"If Britain had apologised initially it would have solved everything," said Saeed Abutaleb, a leading fundamentalist MP. "But now the matter has dragged on so long I don't think the Iranian government and nation will be satisfied with an apology, and [the sailors] might be put on trial. "Britain should pay attention to what happened to the American hostages, who were kept until Iran had achieved what it wanted," he told the Guardian. "We have the experience of that [1979] embassy siege, and we are ready for it again."

The British initiative follows a diplomatic note from Tehran on Friday which was unusual in not demanding an apology for any alleged incursion, instead seeking a guarantee against future infringements. The Foreign Office replied the same day via the embassy in Tehran.

Defence sources said yesterday there was "no question of negotiations" for the crew's release. Britain would instead simply explain how it conducts its naval operations in the region. The sources also played down newspaper reports on Sunday that a senior naval officer would fly to Tehran to explain the British position.

The "confidence-building" initiative would consist of an explanation to Tehran about the Royal Navy's mission in the northern Gulf and operating procedures when crew stop and board vessels suspected of smuggling weapons to insurgents or of planning attacks against Iraqi oil terminals, officials said. It would involve a discussion of the precautions taken to avoid straying into Iranian waters.

To resolve the crisis, Britain is receiving help from Syria, among other Arab states, the Guardian has learned. Though bilateral relations have been poor, diplomatic sources said Damascus appears to be trying to help. It is one of the closest to Iran, with which it has a defensive pact.

all gonna workout it we can keep Dubya quiet for a week.
post #224 of 367
So when it fails, because of any reason besides Chimpy, it will be Chimy's fault? Brilliant logic.
post #225 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

That's why I posted the link, in order for people to read the entire article. Duh!
You ignored the part of the article that you find uncomfortable, or inconvenient, ie the factual part re. the Iraq-Iran maritime boundaries being faked, in order to "justify" the UK government's stand.

So then you are obviously accusing the Iranian leadership of faking their borders too, right?

I wonder, if the Brits had just blown the Iranians to shit...maybe chased them a little closer to their shores are just smoked anyone they saw and maybe grabbed a few to take home...you would, of course, as vigorously attack the Iranian leadership in that case, correct? I mean, they would obviously claim that their men were attacked across their border, but that would mean they were liars, right? For them to claim that, when there are no borders, that just makes them fakers, rights?

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #226 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficerDigby View Post

What, stand?

Iran has said the UK govt. should apologize for putting UK seamen in Iranian waters. The UK responds and says that they were in Iraqi water's according to the maps they use.

You imply that the article states that the maps were made up to cause an incident.

If there are 'no maps' how can Iran demand apology for UK crossing the border?

You've implied that that UK govt. has set this up as a pretext to war, and faked the maps carte blanche. I will admit Blair has taken the wrong approach to resolve this issue. I think he knows it now. It would be appreciated if US would just STFU on this, so we can fix it thanks boys. (Particularly the Ape-man currently acting as President).

The problem here is that the demonization of the inhabitants of Middle Eastern nations (especially in the last few years) by the Bush-Blair axis of weasels, via a complicit lapdog media, has allowed people to get a naive, blinkered and dualistic impression that "we" are always unimpeachable and want the best for the world's people, while "they" are always "evil" and of malignant intent. But... it's "we" who want the war, for obvious reasons, and "they" don't (for more than obvious reasons (think about it, or is that too hard?).

Britain can very easily end, what is at this minute, a very minor squabble. But since the US UK axis needs this war like a heroin addict goes to any measure to get his fix, they will do their utmost NOT TO RESOLVE it diplomatically, and will place any roadblocks they can in the way of a peaceful solution. If the Iranian government had any sense (it seems as if they don't), and they also screw the cap back on the testosterone bottle while they are at it, then they could delay the inevitable conflict by ....(insert time period here). But both sides are more concerned with not been seen as "losing face". What a clusterfvck this has become. Incidentally, does the hardline Islamic regime in Iran employ any (real) women?

Ha!

Imagine if this situation had happened the other way around: "An Iranian naval ship strays over the other side of the UK MoD's arbitrary maritime boundary".The US and UK would have viewed this as "an act of war" and would have launched an attack before you can say "Israel's Security". Of course they would, it's what they want to happen, and have done for over a decade, from when Clinton was President and the Neocons were cloistered in their boardrooms and thinktanks, salivating for the day a Republican White House would give them access to all the power they crave(d).

Quote:
As for your over-arching interpretation of events based on a very small part of a blog that actually gives a reasoned opinion critical of both sides. I would suggest you put your other eye back-in you one-eyed troll boy.

On the surface I appeared a little one-sided, but the point I referred to was the main thrust of the piece: without it, the article becomes more padding than substance. And re. your last little piece of kindergarten mewling... on second thoughts, no comment.
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post #227 of 367
Quote:
But the Ministry of Defence hinted for the first time it may have made mistakes surrounding the incident. An inquiry has been commissioned to explore 'navigational' issues around the kidnapping and aspects of maritime law.

You know what? Such is the density of the winger RDF (apparently it is the most impenetrable solid mass in the known universe) that I'm going to say that again:

Quote:
But the Ministry of Defence hinted for the first time it may have made mistakes surrounding the incident. An inquiry has been commissioned to explore 'navigational' issues around the kidnapping and aspects of maritime law.

One more time:

Quote:
But the Ministry of Defence hinted for the first time it may have made mistakes surrounding the incident. An inquiry has been commissioned to explore 'navigational' issues around the kidnapping and aspects of maritime law.

Link from unimpeachable news source
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #228 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You know what? Such is the density of the winger RDF (apparently it is the most impenetrable solid mass in the known universe) that I'm going to say that again:



One more time:



Link from unimpeachable news source

And if the inquiry finds that the Brits were not in Iranian waters, will you then accept that, or will they simply be liars again? In the end, regardless of what they say or do, they will be at fault, obviously.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #229 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

And if the inquiry finds that the Brits were not in Iranian waters, will you then accept that, or will they simply be liars again? In the end, regardless of what they say or do, they will be at fault, obviously.

You miss the point - inquiries are held when issues are in doubt.

A week ago there was 'no doubt' and things were 'clear', 'unequivocal' and 'proved'.

Now we have some doubt.

It's progress but let's take one step at a time.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #230 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You know what? Such is the density of the winger RDF (apparently it is the most impenetrable solid mass in the known universe) that I'm going to say that again:

One more time:

Link from unimpeachable news source

Frankly if they did goof it was simply an event that the Iranians were looking for to snatch people. One doesn't pull that kind of stuff off on the fly.

We'll see what the mistakes are when the MoD reports on it.

Vinea
post #231 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You miss the point - inquiries are held when issues are in doubt.

A week ago there was 'no doubt' and things were 'clear', 'unequivocal' and 'proved'.

Now we have some doubt.

It's progress but let's take one step at a time.

Inquires are held when enough people make enough noise.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #232 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Quote:
But the Ministry of Defence hinted for the first time it may have made mistakes surrounding the incident. An inquiry has been commissioned to explore 'navigational' issues around the kidnapping and aspects of maritime law.
You know what? Such is the density of the winger RDF (apparently it is the most impenetrable solid mass in the known universe) that I'm going to say that again:

Quote:
But the Ministry of Defence hinted for the first time it may have made mistakes surrounding the incident. An inquiry has been commissioned to explore 'navigational' issues around the kidnapping and aspects of maritime law.
One more time:

Quote:
But the Ministry of Defence hinted for the first time it may have made mistakes surrounding the incident. An inquiry has been commissioned to explore 'navigational' issues around the kidnapping and aspects of maritime law.
Link from unimpeachable news source[/URL]

Capt. Seg. Troll. Classic, one eyed-journalism from you again. Consult with Lieutenant Sammi Jo on how this fits with the plan to go to war, and the weasel UK press. Above all please read articles that you quote fully. Inquiry is held by MOD on how UK fucked up and got it's servicemen captured, ffs. LOL!

Here's some more Guardian stuff for you to extract the bits you like the best ;-).



Link from Seg's favorite UK weasel press a.k.a unimpeachable news source
post #233 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You know what? Such is the density of the winger RDF (apparently it is the most impenetrable solid mass in the known universe) that I'm going to say that again:



One more time:



Link from unimpeachable news source

Ridiculous. Vague. Out of context.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #234 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficerDigby View Post

Capt. Seg. Troll. Classic, one eyed-journalism from you again. Consult with Lieutenant Sammi Jo on how this fits with the plan to go to war, and the weasel UK press. Above all please read articles that you quote fully. Inquiry is held by MOD on how UK fucked up and got it's servicemen captured, ffs. LOL!

Here's some more Guardian stuff for you to extract the bits you like the best ;-).



Link from Seg's favorite UK weasel press a.k.a unimpeachable news source

I love that term, "unimpeachable." The Guardian. Christ.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #235 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

So then you are obviously accusing the Iranian leadership of faking their borders too, right?


That's about right, both have made false claims, the brits and the iranians, the river in question has no specific borderline, it's basically noman's land or water. What is there is merely a ceasefire-line since the Iraq-Iran-war.

Iran deliberately captured the british navy-soldiers when they saw the opportunity, in order to use them as a bargain-chip to press free the iranian officials, diplomats and paramilitary personell that got captured in Iraq by the US.

Who could fault them for trying it?

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #236 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

That's about right, both have made false claims, the brits and the iranians, the river in question has no specific borderline, it's basically noman's land or water. What is there is merely a ceasefire-line since the Iraq-Iran-war.

Iran deliberately captured the british navy-soldiers when they saw the opportunity, in order to use them as a bargain-chip to press free the iranian officials, diplomats and paramilitary personell that got captured in Iraq by the US.

Who could fault them for trying it?

Nightcrawler

I could. Not only did they capture them illegally, they violated their rights under the Geneva Conventions, which clearly apply to these soldiers. Secondly, you and the other wingers can blather on about the border if you'd like, but the vast majority of the world knows where the boundry is. Iran likely knows where it is too, as they changed the coordinates after it was shown the Brits were in Iraqi waters.

Iran's conduct is outrageous. From their open refusal to obey UN Mandates to actually taking hostages and then parading them around on TV, coercing and televising "confessions" from them.

How long will the world tolerate this rogue state? Or, will you continue to make excuses for them and claim it is all the Bush Administration's lust for war that is driving things?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #237 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I could. Not only did they capture them illegally, they violated their rights under the Geneva Conventions, which clearly apply to these soldiers. Secondly, you and the other wingers can blather on about the border if you'd like, but the vast majority of the world knows where the boundry is. Iran likely knows where it is too, as they changed the coordinates after it was shown the Brits were in Iraqi waters.

Iran's conduct is outrageous. From their open refusal to obey UN Mandates to actually taking hostages and then parading them around on TV, coercing and televising "confessions" from them.

How long will the world tolerate this rogue state? Or, will you continue to make excuses for them and claim it is all the Bush Administration's lust for war that is driving things?


What you on about ? This is miniscule in comparison to Guantanemo.
post #238 of 367
I second that.

As long as Gitmo exists, the US and any ally who fail to condemn Gitmo are in no position to argue with detaining anybody.

Kidnapping people in foriegn countries without those countries' permission; holding prinsoners in secret "prisons" in various countries (aka, holding hostages is hideouts); smuggling prisoners between countries without the proper documentation (human trafficking); holding people without trial and without access to counsel for years on end, not to mention no outside contact (human rights? What rights?).

Mmm...

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #239 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I second that.

As long as Gitmo exists, the US and any ally who fail to condemn Gitmo are in no position to argue with detaining anybody.

Kidnapping people in foriegn countries without those countries' permission; holding prinsoners in secret "prisons" in various countries (aka, holding hostages is hideouts); smuggling prisoners between countries without the proper documentation (human trafficking); holding people without trial and without access to counsel for years on end, not to mention no outside contact (human rights? What rights?).

Mmm...



Yep. We're parading them on TV and making them confess to rally the scared populace... er, uh, wait a sec.
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post #240 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

No, this is...

US jet fighters violate Iran's airspace: military


"US warplanes have violated Iranian airspace in the southwestern oil-rich province of Khuzestan, Al-Alam Arabic language news satellite channel quoted a local military chief as saying on Sunday.

"Two US aircraft trespassed into Iranian airspace northwest of (the southwestern port city of) Abadan before flying southwest into Iraq," a local Revolutionary Guards commander in Abadan identified only as Colonel Aqili was quoted as saying on the channel's website.

"The planes left white vapour trails, attracting the local people's attention," he said, without elaborating on when the alleged incursion took place.

The incident happened close to Iran's border with Iraq, where the US and British military are deployed in force.

The US is in a mounting diplomatic confrontation with Iran over its uranium enrichment and Western suspicions that Tehran is bent on developing nuclear weapons, a charge vehemently denied by Iran.

Washington says it wants a diplomatic solution to the nuclear standoff, but it has never ruled out a military option.

Tensions have spiked since Iran's seizure on March 23 of 15 British marines and sailors for allegedly entering Iranian waters.

Iran says the Britons illegally entered its territorial waters while London insists they were in Iraqi waters on a anti-smuggling patrol under UN mandate."



The Americans ur comin' violating ur airspace!


I know this is slightly off topic but I've got to hand it to you when it comes to add on movies and pictures! I'm still laughing!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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