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post #41 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Do I need to go one by one down that list and name the massive bureaucracies and specific acts and show that almost the entire list, or at least its beginnings, are in place currently?

No. You need to support this statement:

Quote:
Just like it's hard to discern the difference between Heritage Foundation, NRA, Rush, Bush, and the lot. Lumping the right (as is always done around here)

and lump in something like the Klan, because confusing mainstream elements of a political spectrum and radical fringe elements apparently always happens around here.
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post #42 of 120
This is fun. Since one's position on a political spectrum is entirely a matter of degree, we should pretty much be able to get from anywhere to anywhere, assuming we are allowed to find equivalency between things like "worker's rights" and "the rule of the proletariat"-- that is, a position and that same position if it were amplified a thousand fold.

For instance (I told you this was fun):

Many Republicans support "law and order" measures, with an emphasis on vigorous policing. Therefore, Republicans seek a brutal police state, just like the Nazis.

Or maybe, Republicans often scapegoat illegal immigrants from Mexico and points south, who are not caucasian. Therefore, Republicans are white supremacists, just like the Klan.

Oh, wait I know: Republicans are in favor of a "strong leader" who doesn't let "anybody push him around". Therefore, Republicans seek to be led by a mass-murdering despot, just like Pol Pot.

I mean really, it's all there in theory if not practice.
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post #43 of 120
You got it. Reductio ad absurdum.

Edit: make that Reduction falsa aequivalencia ad absurdum.

Anyone have better Latin than I do?
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post #44 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

No. You need to support this statement:



and lump in something like the Klan, because confusing mainstream elements of a political spectrum and radical fringe elements apparently always happens around here.

Well, the discussion on Fox News is a great example. People who actually watch and/or believe anything they hear there are automatically cast as Neocon wingers. I've been called a fascist a number of times on this board, and worse, on the assumption that because I support certain things, I support other things. The minute I say one thing that might be construed as supportive of GWB, the fangs come out, and so do the neat little categories.

I do not consider the CPUSA to be a "radical fringe element" in the same way as a murderous demented racist cult like the KKK. They (CPUSA) are just another voice trying to get their point across. A point I will fight with all my strength, but a valid worldview all the same. The Klan is a vile abomination of what America is all about. There is no equivocation between those two in my mind. One is a economic and political argument. The other one is just senseless evil and hatred.

I look at what the leaders of the democratic party want, and what the communist manifesto says, and I see similarities. Much more so than I do from the Republicans.
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post #45 of 120
"Similarities" is such an, oh, expansive word, don't you think?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #46 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

"Similarities" is such an, oh, expansive word, don't you think?

Shall I enumerate them?
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post #47 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Shall I enumerate them?

Nah. But I would like to see you explain why the KKK is not a right-wing political organization trying to get its point across.
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post #48 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Nah. But I would like to see you explain why the KKK is not a right-wing political organization trying to get its point across.

Because it's important to inoculate the corpus of the party against the disease of its extremists by declaring those extremists illegitimate.
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post #49 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Nah. But I would like to see you explain why the KKK is not a right-wing political organization trying to get its point across.

They are not a valid voice in the current political climate. They are beyond fringe, and share almost universal contempt. Their edicts and proclamations mean nothing to the wider discourse in the country.

I cannot prove a negative for you- "prove they are not relevant"
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post #50 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Because it's important to inoculate the corpus of the party against the disease of its extremists by declaring those extremists illegitimate.

...while also denying that the farthest fringe of the other side is fringe at all. I mean, god, if the COMMIES aren't the far left...DEAR LORD. WHAT MUST THE FAR LEFT BE?! BE AFRAID!!! BE AFRAID!!!
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post #51 of 120
Uh, you mean as opposed to the Communist Party, upon which America awaits its next move with hushed expectation? No, wait, what Midwinter said.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #52 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Because it's important to inoculate the corpus of the party against the disease of its extremists by declaring those extremists illegitimate.

But funny, I do not see the left running from people on the fringe left...? Maybe MoveOn is the mainstream Dem now? Just curious..
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post #53 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

...while also denying that the farthest fringe of the other side is fringe at all. I mean, god, if the COMMIES aren't the far left...DEAR LORD. WHAT MUST THE FAR LEFT BE?! BE AFRAID!!! BE AFRAID!!!

Terrorists. You just have to redraw the line through commies, who are now just to the left of Pelosi, and on to its terminus at terrorists.
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post #54 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

But funny, I do not see the left running from people on the fringe left...? Maybe MoveOn is the mainstream Dem now? Just curious..

MoveOn isn't what you think it is, and you're a freaking halfwit.
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post #55 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

MoveOn isn't what you think it is, and you're a freaking halfwit.

No need to start namecalling. We were making such progress!

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post #56 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Terrorists. You just have to redraw the line through commies, who are now just to the left of Pelosi, and on to its terminus at terrorists.

No. Most Islamic terrorists are fascists. Other side.
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post #57 of 120
BTW, have you two though about taking this show on tour? You two seem to work and play well together...
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post #58 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

No need to start namecalling. We were making such progress!


Oh, that's not name calling. You'll know when I resort to name calling.

In the meantime, take a look at what MoveOn.org actually says and does. They're currently flogging such crazed, radical ideas as ending the war in Iraq, which about 70% of the American people support, at this point, and mandating a paper trail for electronic voting machines.

Dirty commies.
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post #59 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

They are not a valid voice in the current political climate. They are beyond fringe, and share almost universal contempt. Their edicts and proclamations mean nothing to the wider discourse in the country.

I cannot prove a negative for you- "prove they are not relevant"

Quote:
The Knights ' Party Platform

The recognition that America was founded as a Christian nation.

The recognition that America was founded as a White nation.

Repeal the NAFTA and GATT treaties.

Put America FIRST in all foreign matters

Stop all Foreign Aid Immediately

Cut off trade with countries that refuse to establish strict environmental laws.

Abolish ALL discriminatory affirmative action programs

Put American troops on our border to STOP the flood of illegal aliens

Abolish all anti-gun laws and encourage every adult to own a weapon

Actively promote love and appreciation of our unique European (White) culture

Outlaw the purchase of American property and industry by foreign corporations and investors.

Drug testing for welfare recipients

Repeal the Federal Reserve Act.

Balance the budget

Rehabilitate our public school system.

A flat income tax should be introduced to allow for the funding of community, state and federal projects.

Abortion should be outlawed except to save the mother's life or in case of rape or incest.

We support the death penalty for those convicted of molestation and rape

We support a national law against the practice of homosexuality

We support the placing of all persons HIV positive into national hospitals

Restoring individual freedom to Christian America.

We support the voluntary repatriation of everyone not satisfied with living under White Christian rules of conduct back to the native lands of their people

Everyone who can work should work

We support a return to parental authority without government interference in the raising of our children

We respect the right of homeowners and that no one should ever be forced from their home for the non payment of taxes

We support state sovereignty resolutions

We advocate a strong defense department to safeguard American citizens

We support all U.S. veterans

We should find those that are missing and take care of those who have come home.

I feel dirty just having looked at this site, and I won't dignify them with a link (despite their growing ranks lately).

I seem to remember something about similarities you said earlier? Would you care to comment about the similarities between the KKK's politics, articulated here, to your own?
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post #60 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

No. Most Islamic terrorists are fascists. Other side.

Oh, it doesn't have to make sense. The same objectively pro-terrorist liberals who want to have tea with bin Laden are the ones who brought this scourge upon our head by promoting a decadent culture of sex and self gratification which of course enrages Islamo-facists because, um, it enrages conservatives as well and who wouldn't want to blow up such a gay loving coke snorting Hollywood having cess pool of a country full of liberals that love terror?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #61 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I feel dirty just having looked at this site, and I won't dignify them with a link (despite their growing ranks lately).

I seem to remember something about similarities you said earlier? Would you care to comment about the similarities between the KKK's politics, articulated here, to your own?

Wow. I throw out 10 planks and you give me the Sunday NYT. It's not about me. We are talking party here, and years of voting history. There are a few of those things that almost any thinking person can support, and plenty that deserve nothing but contempt. It would take more keystrokes than it is worth to dissect that entire list for you.
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post #62 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I feel dirty just having looked at this site, and I won't dignify them with a link (despite their growing ranks lately).

I seem to remember something about similarities you said earlier? Would you care to comment about the similarities between the KKK's politics, articulated here, to your own?

Oh, fucking snap.
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post #63 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Oh, it doesn't have to make sense. The same objectively pro-terrorist liberals who want to have tea with bin Laden are the ones who brought this scourge upon our head by promoting a decadent culture of sex and self gratification which of course enrages Islamo-facists because, um, it enrages conservatives as well and who wouldn't want to blow up such a gay loving coke snorting Hollywood having cess pool of a country full of liberals that love terror?

Very well written. My compliments.
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post #64 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Wow. I throw out 10 planks and you give me the Sunday NYT. It's not about me. We are talking party here, and years of voting history. There are a few of those things that almost any thinking person can support, and plenty that deserve nothing but contempt. It would take more keystrokes than it is worth to dissect that entire list for you.

So let me get this straight:

you look at the political platform of the KKK and deny that they are a political movement?
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post #65 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I feel dirty just having looked at this site, and I won't dignify them with a link (despite their growing ranks lately).

I seem to remember something about similarities you said earlier? Would you care to comment about the similarities between the KKK's politics, articulated here, to your own?

and let's not forget that the KKK can post a platform AFTER seeing the platforms of others and adopt certain issues in an attempt to seem legit. The Communist Manifesto was written well over 100 years ago. It didn't hit the Dem Party USA until 1968.
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post #66 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

and let's not forget that the KKK can post a platform AFTER seeing the platforms of others and adopt certain issues in an attempt to seem legit. The Communist Manifesto was written well over 100 years ago. It didn't hit the Dem Party USA until 1968.

I have no clue what the hell your point is now. You're suggesting that the Klan, which is just about as old as Marx's Manifesto, is somehow not a valid political movement while the Klan, which is almost as old as Marx's manifesto and used to dominate Southern politics, is not valid because...why?
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post #67 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

So let me get this straight:

you look at the political platform of the KKK and deny that they are a political movement?

They are indeed a political movement, but not a mainstream one. They have not had a place at the national table since the 1920s. Not since David Duke in the late 80s has the Klan had a damn thing to do with elections or popular political dialog. What exactly are you getting at here? Is the final goal to somehow confirm that the KKK gets it's marching orders from Tom DeLay?
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post #68 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I have no clue what the hell your point is now. You're suggesting that the Klan, which is just about as old as Marx's Manifesto, is somehow not a valid political movement while the Klan, which is almost as old as Marx's manifesto and used to dominate Southern politics, is not valid because...why?

That platform you posted was written in the past few decades to be sure. It is not a contemporary of Marx's writings.
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post #69 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

They are indeed a political movement, but not a mainstream one. They have not had a place at the national table since the 1920s. Not since David Duke in the late 80s has the Klan had a damn thing to do with elections or popular political dialog.

Um. They haven't had a seat at the table since the 20s. But only if you ignore everything between the 20s and the 70s. And the 80s with Duke. And maybe some stuff after that.

Quote:
What exactly are you getting at here? Is the final goal to somehow confirm that the KKK gets it's marching orders from Tom DeLay?

Yeah. That's it. You got it, bud. Nailed me. That's totally my point.
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post #70 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Um. They haven't had a seat at the table since the 20s. But only if you ignore everything between the 20s and the 70s. And the 80s with Duke. And maybe some stuff after that.



Yeah. That's it. You got it, bud. Nailed me. That's totally my point.

Thanks. Do I get a cookie now?

Seriously gents, it's been real fun tonight. Have a great evening. Cheers..
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post #71 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

That platform you posted was written in the past few decades to be sure. It is not a contemporary of Marx's writings.

Answer me a quick question, Jub:

Do you have a watch or a clock?

Seriously.
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post #72 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Answer me a quick question, Jub:

Do you have a watch or a clock?

Seriously.

Both. This newfangled Fossil wrist watch and something called a "digital atomic" clock that's on me wall. Why ever do you ask?

(sure I'm stepping right into something)
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post #73 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Both. This newfangled Fossil wrist watch and something called a "digital atomic" clock that's on me wall. Why ever do you ask?

(sure I'm stepping right into something)

You are, a little. But don't worry. I'm a nice guy.

Since you want to go to bed, I'll consolidate:

1) Do you agree that your watch marks the passage of time?

2) Do you have a calendar? Do you agree that your calendar also records the passage of time?

3) Do you know something now that you did not know yesterday? Last week? Last month? Last year? Do you know something that someone a century ago didn't or couldn't have known?
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post #74 of 120
Quote:
They are indeed a political movement, but not a mainstream one

Are you trying to say that Communism in America is a "mainstream political movement"?
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post #75 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

You are, a little. But don't worry. I'm a nice guy.

Since you want to go to bed, I'll consolidate:

1) Do you agree that your watch marks the passage of time?

2) Do you have a calendar? Do you agree that your calendar also records the passage of time?

3) Do you know something now that you did not know yesterday? Last week? Last month? Last year? Do you know something that someone a century ago didn't or couldn't have known?

First of all, I know you are a nice guy. Even if these pixels sometimes come across a little rough.

1. Indeed.
2. Sure.
3. Probably.
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post #76 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerLurker View Post

Are you trying to say that Communism in America is a "mainstream political movement"?

Try to knock out one of those planks mentioned earlier and see what happens. The Communist Party itself has a PR problem since J Edgar. The ideas therein contained are already enacted.
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post #77 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

First of all, I know you are a nice guy. Even if these pixels sometimes come across a little rough.

1. Indeed.
2. Sure.
3. Probably.

Good, Glaucon, we have established that time passes and that you agree that it passes. Today is not yesterday. Yesterday is not a month ago, and so on.

Now. Do you agree that as time passes and we learn more, those things affect the way we perceive the world? For instance, we used to think it was OK to own people. We don't anymore. We used to think it was OK to make children under the age of 12 work 15 hour days (until the blessed 10 hours act, when they could only work for TEN hours).

Do you agree that we no longer think these things are acceptable?
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post #78 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Good, Glaucon, we have established that time passes and that you agree that it passes. Today is not yesterday. Yesterday is not a month ago, and so on.

Now. Do you agree that as time passes and we learn more, those things affect the way we perceive the world? For instance, we used to think it was OK to own people. We don't anymore. We used to think it was OK to make children under the age of 12 work 15 hour days (until the blessed 10 hours act, when they could only work for TEN hours).

Do you agree that we no longer think these things are acceptable?

Completely. These are line-item issues, not "I believe one, thus I believe all." <prepares strawman flag> I believe in certain aspects of both manifestos. I abhor others. As do most people. The whole idea was to show how much of the Comm Manifesto we already enjoy.
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post #79 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Completely. These are line-item issues, not "I believe one, thus I believe all." <prepares strawman flag> I believe in certain aspects of both manifestos. I abhor others. As do most people. The whole idea was to show how much of the Comm Manifesto we already enjoy.

No strawmanning here.

Anyway. Good. You agree that time passes and that we learn more as time passes and that our ideas about justice and good change over time. Excellent.

Now. Given that we know that time passes and that we know more with each passing dayand keeping in mind that our ideas change over timewould you prefer to live in today's world, or in last week's? Last year's? Last century's? Two centuries ago? The 15th century? 800 BC? Which of these worlds would be the bestassuming that the information learned in them was transmitted to successive generations? The older, or the newer? Keep in mind, also, that if you choose the older, you must give up the advances of the younger.
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post #80 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

No strawmanning here.

Anyway. Good. You agree that time passes and that we learn more as time passes and that our ideas about justice and good change over time. Excellent.

Now. Given that we know that time passes and that we know more with each passing dayand keeping in mind that our ideas change over timewould you prefer to live in today's world, or in last week's? Last year's? Last century's? Two centuries ago? The 15th century? 800 BC? Which of these worlds would be the bestassuming that the information learned in them was transmitted to successive generations? The older, or the newer? Keep in mind, also, that if you choose the older, you must give up the advances of the younger.

I'd say today's world. We have made amazing social and technological progress and though there are aspects of the current system I thing are damaging to people and nations, we have (left and right) moved together to a present world that is simply amazing on many levels.
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