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post #41 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by satchmo View Post

Anyone else think Apple let the cat out of bag too soon?

June seems like an eternity away and everyone's coming out of the woodworks with their iPhone killer.

But you're forgetting that the Upstage (and Prada, and whatever else) are only 'iPhone killers' in the same way that the Creative Zen, Toshiba Gigabeat, and Zune were 'iPod killers'... i.e., not at all. The Upstage is a decent try, but that's about all. Apple isn't exactly losing sleep.

Far as Apple announcing the iPhone back in January, that was the way to go. They completely overshadowed all of CES and generated tremendous advance hype and curiousity, and if they'd waited, well, they would've been scooped anyway when time came to submit the iPhone for FCC approval (something Apple has to do far in advance of the iPhone actually shipping).

Apple made the right call (pardon the pun), and it's not like the copycats can really slap together something in five months (or even fifteen months) that's going to equal or exceed the iPhone.

Look at it this way... the iPod copycats have had over FIVE YEARS to come up with something that equals or exceeds the iPod, and it just hasn't happened, because they don't have Apple's design skills, corporate DNA, or patents. Their world is all about 'good enough', which consistently prevents them from equaling the iPod.

iPhone is pretty much the same dealio. Why? Because the major phone makers weren't thinking, like Apple, that the cell phone was basically 'broken' and needed to be rethought... they thought the status quo in cell phone design and UI was fine and they were only too happy to keep selling customers variations on the same old, same old.

Thus, the iPhone caught them more or less flat-footed, and its going to take them a long time to catch up, if they ever do. They basically have to hope that Apple screws up. A lot. \

.
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post #42 of 80
Agreed, nothing beats Apple's iPhone's interface. Still I find the inclusion of free, no-commercial internet radio on the UpStage quite alluring, and that is not a feature currently on offer with the iPhone, as far as I can tell.

And if any manufacturer ever gets it together enough to incorporate decent speech-recognition technology into a mobile device, then the physical interface will become much less important for entering data, be it for dialing calls or shopping on iTunes or where ever.
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post #43 of 80
Watch out for Palm's next product (to be announced around May)...

Jeff Hawkins, the inventor of the Palm Treo, has been working on a secret product which can be THE threat to the iPhone. They have been working closely of late with Sprint to establish a business related to over-the-air wireless internet and downloads. I believe this product will feature an updated Palm OS interface (still the most simple user-friendly OS ever, though it hasnt been updated for years), phone-wifi capabilities, and i think will take advantage of this over-the-air music downloads from Sprint.

Imagine a Treo, widescreen, with WiFi (theres even talks of WiMAX), Palm OS2, with an iTunes-like application built in, where you can download songs over this Sprint Music Library... sounds like an Awesome iPhone competitor to me.

And Palm has a given plus over OSX... third-part applications! TONS of them! both for personal and business enterprises.
post #44 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post

Watch out for Palm's next product (to be announced around May)...

Jeff Hawkins, the inventor of the Palm Treo, has been working on a secret product which can be THE threat to the iPhone. They have been working closely of late with Sprint to establish a business related to over-the-air wireless internet and downloads. I believe this product will feature an updated Palm OS interface (still the most simple user-friendly OS ever, though it hasnt been updated for years), phone-wifi capabilities, and i think will take advantage of this over-the-air music downloads from Sprint.

Imagine a Treo, widescreen, with WiFi (theres even talks of WiMAX), Palm OS2, with an iTunes-like application built in, where you can download songs over this Sprint Music Library... sounds like an Awesome iPhone competitor to me.

And Palm has a given plus over OSX... third-part applications! TONS of them! both for personal and business enterprises.

*Let's loose a tremendous Yawn*

Imagine Palm's outdated OS, on top of Linux, on a phone that looks like the iPhone, does WiFi too! or components for a network that doesn't exist yet. Palm OS2 with a "Music Playing" application that is nothing like the iTunes I know and love, where I can download songs over this Sprint Music Library while waiting in line at Safeway and as an added bonus, manage my Music Library on an SD Card and a Number Pad! RIP iPhone....



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post #45 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

They still do not get it, they think Apple is competing on price, sooner or later they will figure out it is all about the end user experience.

Ok so you can download over the air, but how do you manage your music and all your content, can you easily move things between your phone and computer or your stereo system or play the music over your car stereo and do it all work without you having to think about.

It looks like another failed product... and Sprint think that if people have their music on the phone they would be less likely to change service providers.

yeah, well how is apple product any easier when you have to move the music from the computer to the device?. Think about this for a second.. why do you buy a phone that can play music?.. to play music on the phone!!!.. not the computer!!! As to ease of moving music on the computer.. i have a SD card.. it's as easy as plugging the sd card into a reader and copying the music to my computer.. heck, it's as easy as moving the music through a bluetooth connection but that begs the question of why?.. if i wanted music on my computer, why would i buy it through a phone?. Conversely, if i wanted music on my phone, why would i buy it through a computer ( a question apple apparently failed to ask themself).
post #46 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

The iPhone as-is is not suitable for downloading media. UTMS isn't even suitable, much less GPRS. However, I'm not convinced that people have been running to download songs on their phones, nor do I believe that at 0.99 this will change much of anything.

Don't be an ass.. of course 99 cents changes thing.. do you think sprint has zero customers?.. or customers who do not buy their music?.. of course not!!.. it makes a difference cause those customers can get more music for their money and other sprint customers who were thinking about it but thought the price was too high will give it a try.. just cause you are an apple fanboy does not mean you have to give yourself a lobotomy. Will it change anything.. duh, yes. Will it compete effectively with apple offerings.. that's another story. There is still room for growth in this market.. sprint growing does not imply apple shrinking.
post #47 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

But you're forgetting that the Upstage (and Prada, and whatever else) are only 'iPhone killers' in the same way that the Creative Zen, Toshiba Gigabeat, and Zune were 'iPod killers'... i.e., not at all. The Upstage is a decent try, but that's about all. Apple isn't exactly losing sleep.

Far as Apple announcing the iPhone back in January, that was the way to go. They completely overshadowed all of CES and generated tremendous advance hype and curiousity, and if they'd waited, well, they would've been scooped anyway when time came to submit the iPhone for FCC approval (something Apple has to do far in advance of the iPhone actually shipping).

Apple made the right call (pardon the pun), and it's not like the copycats can really slap together something in five months (or even fifteen months) that's going to equal or exceed the iPhone.

Look at it this way... the iPod copycats have had over FIVE YEARS to come up with something that equals or exceeds the iPod, and it just hasn't happened, because they don't have Apple's design skills, corporate DNA, or patents. Their world is all about 'good enough', which consistently prevents them from equaling the iPod.

iPhone is pretty much the same dealio. Why? Because the major phone makers weren't thinking, like Apple, that the cell phone was basically 'broken' and needed to be rethought... they thought the status quo in cell phone design and UI was fine and they were only too happy to keep selling customers variations on the same old, same old.

Thus, the iPhone caught them more or less flat-footed, and its going to take them a long time to catch up, if they ever do. They basically have to hope that Apple screws up. A lot. \

.


Apple isn't losing sleep?.. they have ZERO market share as of now. You are funny!!!. Hmm dude, any move a current cell provider makes that persuades more and more people not to wait for the apple iphone should worry apple. They are not the dominant players in this market, they are the upstart or did that little fact escape you?.
post #48 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Don't be an ass.. of course 99 cents changes thing.. do you think sprint has zero customers?.. or customers who do not buy their music?.. of course not!!.. it makes a difference cause those customers can get more music for their money and other sprint customers who were thinking about it but thought the price was too high will give it a try.. just cause you are an apple fanboy does not mean you have to give yourself a lobotomy. Will it change anything.. duh, yes. Will it compete effectively with apple offerings.. that's another story. There is still room for growth in this market.. sprint growing does not imply apple shrinking.

While your tone sucks, your basic observation is correct. Before, at $2.49 a song, Sprint's OTA ('over-the-air') download service was a bad joke that had no chance of succeeding.

Now that they've changed over to the 'iTunes' pricepoint of 99 cents, they essentially get a 'do-over'. Still, I'd agree with the folks who say that the OTA download market isn't exactly setting the world on fire. Yes, there's a lot of people who use cellphones, but you need more than just cellphone users, you need cellphone users who have music cellphones, who have 3G phones, who live in an area well-served by 3G, and who are into OTA downloads. It may all come together, but it's gonna take longer than Sprint or almost anyone else figured. \

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post #49 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

They still do not get it, they think Apple is competing on price, sooner or later they will figure out it is all about the end user experience.

Ok so you can download over the air, but how do you manage your music and all your content, can you easily move things between your phone and computer or your stereo system or play the music over your car stereo and do it all work without you having to think about.

It looks like another failed product... and Sprint think that if people have their music on the phone they would be less likely to change service providers.

Price is vital, man. Apple is going to sell a 600 dollar phone, which will probably last for 2 years, if Apple holds on to their iPod business model of disposable expensive gadgets to maximize profits. Does the iPhone have a replaceable battery???

The great thing about the Samsung idea is that the phone isn't much more expensive than a regular mobile, and that you can download songs without your computer - kind of the point of a mobile phone...

This type of product, with the same pricing as iTunes, but a quarter the cost of iPhone , and most likely a much longer life since the battery and memory is replaceable will appeal to a great many people.

Also - the memory card should be hot-swappable, since it is in most cameras and existing telephones.

For me personally, I like the idea of not having to carry around both an iPod and a phone, but the iPhone is ridiculously expensive, and I don't want the big screen and overly robust OS sucking the (non-replaceable) battery life of my phone. Also, I still think dialing numbers and typing sms's with the touch screen will be totally annoying. Right now I can do it by feel and not look at the phone, which is handy if I'm on the go (again, the point of a mobile phone). Don't even get me started about switching service providers.

I think the majority of the people buying the iPhone will be existing Apple users who go beyond the "average user" category, and like their perceived "status" of having lots of apple toys. Everyone that buys it will also own a MacBook and at least one (probably more) iPods. It's a certain kind of people, sort of super-capitalist toy mongers who at the same time rant about how stupid people with other brands of toys are.

The Samsung phone will appeal to a broader spectrum, i think, AND open up online music/MP3s to a huge number of people who don't or can't or just haven't tried downloading music from the internet (there is a reason that ringtones currently outsell most pop songs - Billboard removed ringtones from the standard top-ten because it got embarrassing to have crazy frog at the top of the charts, in a similar way the New York Times created the "children's top 10" to get Harry Potter out of the simultaneous top 3 bestsellers)...

Blue tooth and probably some sort of cable out will allow connection to stereo system and computer, but I don't think that's the point of the device so much. How many people are actually plugging their iPods nanos into their home stereo (and who the hell will plug their iPhone into their stereo....?)
post #50 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Apple isn't losing sleep?.. they have ZERO market share as of now. You are funny!!!.

Thanks for the kind words.

Honestly though, I do know what I'm saying here. Apple may be a newcomer to the market, but no one reasonable disputes that their product is very well-thought out and a major threat to the established players in the market at the high-end (though we can expect lower-priced iPhones to come out later). I know people who work at Motorola, in their cellphone division. They are losing sleep, they admit. Apple, not so much.

Quote:
Hmm dude, any move a current cell provider makes that persuades more and more people not to wait for the apple iphone should worry apple.

Well, that's exactly the problem. The established cellphone makers are tossing out 'iPhone killers' that aren't persuading most people not to wait for the iPhone:

AT&T receives 1 million inquiries on Apple iPhone

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2607

And it's not even out for another three months. 80

Quote:
They are not the dominant players in this market, they are the upstart or did that little fact escape you?.

LOL, I'm well aware of who the dominant players are... Nokia, Moto, Samsung, LG, etc. So? Their marketshare isn't a defense against the iPhone. None of them really have anything that's going to make the majority of people waiting for the iPhone go, "Oh, FORGET the iPhone, THAT looks much better!!" And therein lies the problem for the established makers.

Apple, newcomer or not, will move in and take a chunk of the high-end market away from them. The established makers will respond in their usual scattershot way, and may eventually come up with something that's a decent 'second best', playing 'Zune to Apple's iPod', as it were. Then Apple will start moving into the midrange phone market, and they'll take a chunk of that too.

No, Apple will not take over the entire industry... they'd never be interested in the low-end, and the established makers economies of scale, established brand, and carrier relationships do count for something. But Apple will no doubt be one of the players in the industry from here on out, and all because the established phone makers couldn't figure out how broken high-end cellphones really were. \

.
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post #51 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Price is vital, man. Apple is going to sell a 600 dollar phone, which will probably last for 2 years, if Apple holds on to their iPod business model of disposable expensive gadgets to maximize profits. Does the iPhone have a replaceable battery???

...

This type of product, with the same pricing as iTunes, but a quarter the cost of iPhone , and most likely a much longer life since the battery and memory is replaceable will appeal to a great many people.

iPod batteries can be replaced, so I can imagine that the same is true for the iPhone as well. It's not as easy as I would like but it can be done. It takes me a few minutes to be able to pop the cover of the standard iPod and 1st gen nano. Anyone that's throwing away their iPod because the battery is dead is being wasteful. If they can't do it themselves, then there are inexpensive services that will do the job, or Apple will trade it out for $59.
post #52 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

iPod batteries can be replaced, so I can imagine that the same is true for the iPhone as well. It's not as easy as I would like but it can be done. It takes me a few minutes to be able to pop the cover of the standard iPod and 1st gen nano. Anyone that's throwing away their iPod because the battery is dead is being wasteful. If they can't do it themselves, then there are inexpensive services that will do the job, or Apple will trade it out for $59.

$60 (plus shipping?) for a new battery (and you can't talk on the phone for a few days while it's being fixed). Otherwise you go to an independent service and pay $50 (and lose all future support for the product), or do it yourself, and hopefully not screw up (and go to the trouble of finding a new battery, again via unofficial means... Those aren't features I'd like in a 600 dollar phone.

It's ridiculous, really, how much Apple has limited the consumer's experience this way with the iPod, and now the phone, but it's what keeps the product selling, I guess. If it lasted twice as long, there'd be half as many sales. The problem with the phone is that every single other model on the market has an easily replaced battery that costs around 15-20 bucks, less if you go third party.

It's crazy that my 4 year old Ericsson phone's battery still holds a charge for a good 3 days, and in that time, i've had 2 iPods die... I don't think many phone customers will put up with that.

Again, I think this is a product apple is basically selling to existing apple devotees, where the brand is paramount. They could make an "iWristwatch" or "iCar" or "iCoffeeMachine" and the same people would buy it. Call it a tax on the faithful.
post #53 of 80
More on 'iPhone Fever', and how crazy it's gotten:

IPhone Makes a Brief Appearance, and Again Apple Steals Show; FCC Chief Wouldn't Give It Back

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070327/cell_...ow_iphone.html

.
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post #54 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Thanks for the kind words.

Well, that's exactly the problem. The established cellphone makers are tossing out 'iPhone killers' that aren't persuading most people not to wait for the iPhone:

AT&T receives 1 million inquiries on Apple iPhone

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2607

And it's not even out for another three months. 80

.

How is this stat proof of anything?. maybe they would have had more inquiries if not for some compelling choices?.. perhaps some of those people who inquired may decide to get another phone?... the stat above is useless. it's only usefullness is to demonstrate potential market share, it does not indicate how compelling the current phone companies offerings are.
post #55 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

How is this stat proof of anything?. maybe they would have had more inquiries if not for some compelling choices?.. perhaps some of those people who inquired may decide to get another phone?... the stat above is useless. it's only usefullness is to demonstrate potential market share, it does not indicate how compelling the current phone companies offerings are.

Hee hee hee. Wait 3 months wnurse, and prepare to weep.

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post #56 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Thanks for the kind words.

Honestly though, I do know what I'm saying here. Apple may be a newcomer to the market, but no one reasonable disputes that their product is very well-thought out and a major threat to the established players in the market at the high-end (though we can expect lower-priced iPhones to come out later). I know people who work at Motorola, in their cellphone division. They are losing sleep, they admit. Apple, not so much.


Well, that's exactly the problem. The established cellphone makers are tossing out 'iPhone killers' that aren't persuading most people not to wait for the iPhone:

AT&T receives 1 million inquiries on Apple iPhone

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2607

And it's not even out for another three months. 80


LOL, I'm well aware of who the dominant players are... Nokia, Moto, Samsung, LG, etc. So? Their marketshare isn't a defense against the iPhone. None of them really have anything that's going to make the majority of people waiting for the iPhone go, "Oh, FORGET the iPhone, THAT looks much better!!" And therein lies the problem for the established makers.

Apple, newcomer or not, will move in and take a chunk of the high-end market away from them. The established makers will respond in their usual scattershot way, and may eventually come up with something that's a decent 'second best', playing 'Zune to Apple's iPod', as it were. Then Apple will start moving into the midrange phone market, and they'll take a chunk of that too.

No, Apple will not take over the entire industry... they'd never be interested in the low-end, and the established makers economies of scale, established brand, and carrier relationships do count for something. But Apple will no doubt be one of the players in the industry from here on out, and all because the established phone makers couldn't figure out how broken high-end cellphones really were. \

.

That would be the SanDisk Sansa, not the Zune. Not even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

$60 (plus shipping?) for a new battery (and you can't talk on the phone for a few days while it's being fixed). Otherwise you go to an independent service and pay $50 (and lose all future support for the product), or do it yourself, and hopefully not screw up (and go to the trouble of finding a new battery, again via unofficial means... Those aren't features I'd like in a 600 dollar phone.

It's ridiculous, really, how much Apple has limited the consumer's experience this way with the iPod, and now the phone, but it's what keeps the product selling, I guess. If it lasted twice as long, there'd be half as many sales. The problem with the phone is that every single other model on the market has an easily replaced battery that costs around 15-20 bucks, less if you go third party.

It's crazy that my 4 year old Ericsson phone's battery still holds a charge for a good 3 days, and in that time, i've had 2 iPods die... I don't think many phone customers will put up with that.

Again, I think this is a product apple is basically selling to existing apple devotees, where the brand is paramount. They could make an "iWristwatch" or "iCar" or "iCoffeeMachine" and the same people would buy it. Call it a tax on the faithful.

Tell that to my Nuclear powered Shuffle. It lasted from a Sunday to a Friday on it's first charge. It crapped out in Homeroom on that Friday because I forgot what day of the week it was and how long it went without a charge.

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post #57 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

It's ridiculous, really, how much Apple has limited the consumer's experience this way with the iPod, and now the phone, but it's what keeps the product selling, I guess. If it lasted twice as long, there'd be half as many sales. The problem with the phone is that every single other model on the market has an easily replaced battery that costs around 15-20 bucks, less if you go third party.

I've owned more portable electronic devices than I can remember and I have yet to find reason to replace a factory installed rechargeable battery. The only time I've ever removed a battery was to add/remove a SIM card below the battery or reset a crappy cellphone OS.
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post #58 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I've owned more portable electronic devices than I can remember and I have yet to find reason to replace a factory installed rechargeable battery.

Huh? Li-ion batteries start going decidedly downhill after 2-3 years. If you keep a device long enough, you'll need to replace that batt.

I know my 1G iPod Mini has ridiculously short battery life compared to when it was new.

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post #59 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Don't be an ass.. of course 99 cents changes thing.. do you think sprint has zero customers?.. or customers who do not buy their music?.. of course not!!.. it makes a difference cause those customers can get more music for their money and other sprint customers who were thinking about it but thought the price was too high will give it a try.. just cause you are an apple fanboy does not mean you have to give yourself a lobotomy. Will it change anything.. duh, yes. Will it compete effectively with apple offerings.. that's another story. There is still room for growth in this market.. sprint growing does not imply apple shrinking.

An ass?

I am a sprint customer, and perhaps you didn't read the post 35 or whatever of this thread where I said I think I'm going to get one of these phones. If I were an Apple fanboy, I would ditch the unbeatable Sprint service and switch to the abysmal Cingular service just to get an iPhone. That's not happening.

I don't know who you are, but I don't think you have much of a clue. At $0.99, sprint will not be making a profit. This is a loss leader, and a hopeful one at that -- they're trying to drive UpStage sales and thus Sprint subscriptions. A lot of people have tried, and everyone who tries to beat the iPod falls flat on their faces. A MicroSD phone isn't going to beat the iPod, or much less the iPhone as a device for playing music. enough said. Will downloadable music make the difference? Honestly, I don't think so. The most compelling feature of this phone is the digital radio that comes with the power-vision plan. Not only is it cool, but it's something that Sprint's world-beating 3G network can do, and Cingular's won't be able to do for five years, optimistically. I'm just not convinced that people want to buy a lot of music on their phones.
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post #60 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

That would be the SanDisk Sansa, not the Zune. Not even close.

We're talking more mindshare than marketshare. I think most people are aware of how the Zune has fared in the market:




Quote:
Tell that to my Nuclear powered Shuffle. It lasted from a Sunday to a Friday on it's first charge. It crapped out in Homeroom on that Friday because I forgot what day of the week it was and how long it went without a charge.

I think he's referring more to the fact that Li-ion batteries eventually wear down... after 2 years or about 300 discharge cycles, whichever comes first. Not how good a brand-new iPod's batt is.

.
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post #61 of 80
Okay, first and foremost, the iPhone will not do anything to the normal, just a phone business. Some people just like basic phones, others just want phones with music -- and others want the whole sha-bang. And thats where the iPhone will win the day. The days of seeing Treo's, Moto Q's, ect selling are almost over. However, them choosing Cingular is a bummer -- i hate that company (but not as much as t-mobile).

But, I do suspect a "iPhone Nano" is going to happen -- it's just a given. When that happens, then Apple will digg into the "normal phone market".


Also, in defense for the Upstage -- it might be joked to be a "iPhone Killer", but as all of you know, it's not. I think the big "iPhone Killer" is in the music store. And it is the exact same price as the Apple Store now -- so you know they are looking at Apple. Also, http://www.phonescoop.com/articles/samsung_upstage/ --> you actually see it in action (even the texting) -- and I gatta say it doesn't look half bad. You might have to flip a lot, but then again, depending on the person, it might not be annoying. And the thing I love most about is the wallet -- it protects the phone and extends the battery life. How cool is that? And it's free with the phone, so anyone complaining about battery life can suck it up....because not using the wallet would be stupid (this way no accidental calls, no breaking the screen because you slammed your phone against something in your wallet...and no scratches on your phone. And, since it's small, it will fit in your pocket with ease.

Can you say the iPhone will fit in your pocket easily? But remember, before you start bashing me, I am an Apple fan -- love my mac and I swear by it. But the iPhone at it's present stage doesn't present a threat to people who just want a phone with a camera, and maybe a couple of added features. Not everyone wants/needs/has money for a computer in a phone, know what I mean *cough* college students.
post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I think he's referring more to the fact that Li-ion batteries eventually wear down... after 2 years or about 300 discharge cycles, whichever comes first. Not how good a brand-new iPod's batt is.

The actual spec is 10% degradation after 500 charge cycles. The problem is that a lot of cheap device designers cut corners and allow for the device to draw or charge with too much "burst" current. This causes fracturing at the electrodes which leads to greater internal resistance and hence shorter battery life. Lithium Sulfur batteries have more robust electrodes, and should be showing up in devices fairly soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

Also, in defense for the Upstage -- it might be joked to be a "iPhone Killer", but as all of you know, it's not. I think the big "iPhone Killer" is in the music store. And it is the exact same price as the Apple Store now -- so you know they are looking at Apple. Also, http://www.phonescoop.com/articles/samsung_upstage/ --> you actually see it in action (even the texting) -- and I gatta say it doesn't look half bad. . . .

Thanks for the link. . . I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get one now, since files from iTunes can be loaded on. That is, you're not bound to the music store.
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post #63 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Thanks for the link. . . I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get one now, since files from iTunes can be loaded on. That is, you're not bound to the music store.

I want to know if iSync works with UpStage,,,
post #64 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

I think the big "iPhone Killer" is in the music store. And it is the exact same price as the Apple Store now -- so you know they are looking at Apple.

The price cut is nice, but it takes a lot more than matching the iTunes price for something to be an 'iTunes killer'. You also need to have a selection as good as the iTMS, strong marketing, and mindshare. On the first, they don't have as many tracks as the iTMS, and points two and three remain to be seen, though I doubt they can market as well as Apple. Most folks can't.

Finally, and unmentioned, is the fact that folks would have to become ga-ga over downloading music OTA. This remains to be seen... the results so far have been fairly poor, but its early days yet.

Quote:
Can you say the iPhone will fit in your pocket easily?

Yes, actually. It's only 2.4 inches wides, and less than a half-inch thick, while being no taller than most smartphones.

.
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post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

The price cut is nice, but it takes a lot more than matching the iTunes price for something to be an 'iTunes killer'. You also need to have a selection as good as the iTMS, strong marketing, and mindshare. On the first, they don't have as many tracks as the iTMS, and points two and three remain to be seen, though I doubt they can market as well as Apple. Most folks can't.

Finally, and unmentioned, is the fact that folks would have to become ga-ga over downloading music OTA. This remains to be seen... the results so far have been fairly poor, but its early days yet.


Yes, actually. It's only 2.4 inches wides, and less than a half-inch thick, while being no taller than most smartphones.

.

I never said it was an iTunes killer, but at the same time you can't download iTunes songs from your iPhone...and on any capable Sprint phone, you can download those songs.

Anyway, then I thought it was bigger. But even still -- is it iPod Nano small? And most of all, is it just simply a phone or an do-it-all phone that costs like 300-500 dollars? I'd rather have a phone that can simply be a phone, and have my songs on it for ring tones. Thats all I want in a phone. And, as it seems, thats what the UpStage is. And other phones (like the Blade from Samsung). Nevertheless, the iPhone still isn't a competitor to the UpStage -- no matter what Sprint says. It's not a smart phone (UpStage) but the iPhone is. Thats like comparing a land line phone to a cell phone. Sure, they both are phones, but some people need land lines (my sister lives out in the mountains....she would need a land line..(lol she doesn't though), however, some people go everywhere and hardly are home. Cell phones are more convenient to those people.

In the same light, if someone will only use their phone for a phone -- then why do they need weather, maps, internet, IM/Text, video/music, and whatever else the iPhone will provide (I heard a rumor it was going to be a shower...lol...thats a joke. YouTube iPhone). However, the UpStage is just a phone with a mp3 player. Some people want that -- others don't. It's all in what your consumer wants.
post #66 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

The actual spec is 10% degradation after 500 charge cycles.

There's really no universally-accepted hard-and-fast 'actual spec', simply because the rate of degradation will vary according to what you do to the battery. For example, Li-ion batteries don't like repeated deep discharges, some temperatures are better than others for them life-wise, storing them with too much or too little charge is bad, not using them regularly is bad, etc. etc.

A more common 'spec' I run into is that Li-ion batteries should last 300 to 500 cycles (which makes sense since it takes into account that people use/treat their batts differently):

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

For myself, I noted that my iBook's battery started to go decidedly south (degradation of more than 20%) after 330 cycles (# of cycles you can find by going About this Mac--> More Info--> Power). Not bad, but of course I wish it had lasted longer. \
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post #67 of 80
Hey SplineModel, since you know about Lithium Sulphur, what's your take on the new Zinc-Silver batteries due to hit the market soon? A worthy replacement to li-ion tech, or just 'different'?

.
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post #68 of 80
Man, that video didn't exactly win me over.

Yes, you have to use a "flip" button to change sides.

They made it super slim by using a tiny battery, they're claiming "a day" of usage, which probably means an hour of talk time plus music.

But wait! They include a big bulky "battery wallet" that clips onto the phone so you can't use the music side without taking it out! Which gives you average battery time, but now it's a great big phone! With compromised functionality!

I simply can't imagine how buying music on this thing would be anything other that a massive, massive pain in the ass.

Why would I want to buy music on my computer that I plan to put on my phone, as wnurse asked?

Because that's where I can manage my giant library of tunes, with a nice, big interface that lets me make play lists and browse for music in comfort and tweak settings without getting carpal tunnel syndrome.

Then, I can deploy those tunes in a number of ways, using the seamless integration of my Apple set-up: iPod, iPhone, Apple TV, all served by one database, all with their own smart playlists.

Instead of being afraid of these new initiatives, I would think Apple is licking their chops, because it is exactly here-- where hardware and services and integration are needed-- that they are head and shoulders above any product, present or announced, in the cell phone market.

Sure, somebody can match pricing, or put together a not terrible music store, or bring out a decent handset.

But who is going to match the iTMS/iPod/iPhone/Apple TV ecology? Which cell phone carrier is going to provide a system that lets me integrate my music purchases, rips, MP3 player selections, phone selections, ringtones, pictures, data and home stereo playback?

None of them. Ever. A few might get a few of the pieces, but Apple's steady build out of an integrated consumer digital media ecology is about to start paying off, in spades.
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post #69 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Man, that video didn't exactly win me over.

Yes, you have to use a "flip" button to change sides.

They made it super slim by using a tiny battery, they're claiming "a day" of usage, which probably means an hour of talk time plus music.

But wait! They include a big bulky "battery wallet" that clips onto the phone so you can't use the music side without taking it out! Which gives you average battery time, but now it's a great big phone! With compromised functionality!

I simply can't imagine how buying music on this thing would be anything other that a massive, massive pain in the ass.

Why would I want to buy music on my computer that I plan to put on my phone, as wnurse asked?

Because that's where I can manage my giant library of tunes, with a nice, big interface that lets me make play lists and browse for music in comfort and tweak settings without getting carpal tunnel syndrome.

Then, I can deploy those tunes in a number of ways, using the seamless integration of my Apple set-up: iPod, iPhone, Apple TV, all served by one database, all with their own smart playlists.

Instead of being afraid of these new initiatives, I would think Apple is licking their chops, because it is exactly here-- where hardware and services and integration are needed-- that they are head and shoulders above any product, present or announced, in the cell phone market.

Sure, somebody can match pricing, or put together a not terrible music store, or bring out a decent handset.

But who is going to match the iTMS/iPod/iPhone/Apple TV ecology? Which cell phone carrier is going to provide a system that lets me integrate my music purchases, rips, MP3 player selections, phone selections, ringtones, pictures, data and home stereo playback?

None of them. Ever. A few might get a few of the pieces, but Apple's steady build out of an integrated consumer digital media ecology is about to start paying off, in spades.


Then go buy an iPhone. Honestly, it seems you want an iPhone (which, btw, so do I). But here are the things that get me with the iPhone:

Cingular. I don't like this company, nor do I plan to switch because of a phone that I simply don't need.
It's price. It's a pricey piece of technology. I don't think it's expensive for what it is -- it has a lot of stuff -- but it is a bit out of my price range.

And thats it. Now back on topic. The UpStage is not an iPhone killer. The UpStage is not meant to do anything but usher Sprint into the music phone age. Version, T-Mobile, Cingular all have "Music Phones" -- and although Sprint has had some pretty decent phones with the ability to play music, the music players were crippled. So here it is. The UpStage.

I don't mean to start anything nor do I mean to offend anyone here. I like this community, you guys are a good bunch of people (so far). It's just that you guys are preaching that no one gets what Apple gets with the phone -- how the iPhone is so simple, so easy to use -- witch is ALL true. But, you guys don't get that the UpStage, The Blade, The Razor and the new Slider all serve a different purpose then the iPhone. The iPhone is a smart phone. it is built to do it all. The UpStage. The Blade. The Razor. The Katana. Even The Chocolate by LG are all good phones because thats what they are -- phones. Some might not play music, but then thats why we have iPods. Some might not play video's, but thats why we have TV/Video iPods. Some might not surf the web well, but hey, thats why we have laptops/computers. And iPods might not call people, but hey! Thats why we have phones.

I get that you guys hate the UpStage for both it's uniqueness and it's functionality. And until I use it, I might hate it as well (I do plan on buying it -- or at least looking into buying it) -- but it's not because I want an iPhone killer. It's not because I want a mp3 player. it's because I want a phone (my current one sucks big a$$) that lets me have my music on my mac as a ring tone. This one does. it's because I don't like to have a phone that everyone has (though...everyone might have this phone, i dunno). I like to try out and buy new things -- and the fact that so many people DON'T like this kind of makes me want it.

Oh, and first and foremost it's a phone and from what i hear, does it well. The reviews I read said that it's a great phone...just that when ur surfing the web, it's annoying and anytime u have to type in text it could get annoying. So about the only thing I might not like is texting -- but then again, I might not be annoyed with it -- I kind of like the idea of a small screen for text, and a big screen for reading the text.

So there you have it. I want the UpStage for those reasons. I know the iPhone is popular, i know the iPhone will sell, and I do wish some day I can have one. But right now -- being a poor college kid who works at wal-mart -- the UpStage works for me. And I REALLY like the "big bulky battery wallet" because when wal-mart sends me outside pushing carts, i can easily break my phone. If i bought the iPhone, it would be (pushing carts it's easy to break things...). And I need the phone for time. That wallet would do some good work for protecting my phone from everything besides water (I hate it when it rains...). Oh, and it gives more then the average amount of battery life...at least for sprint, the average is about four hours of talk time. So yea.
post #70 of 80
I think "many people aren't impressed with the published specs" is a splendid reason to buy a phone.

That'll show us. Because we hate it for its uniqueness and functionality.
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post #71 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

I get that you guys hate the UpStage for both it's uniqueness and it's functionality.

Ugh. You really didn't intend to sound like Samsung or Sprint marketing drone there, did ya?

I don't see any reason to hate ANY phone (aside from it being a piece of sh**), except maybe the alleged 'Zunephone' from Microsoft, when and if it arrives (and then I'd hate it only 'cause it's bound to be a shameless rip-off of Apple's products, which is about all MS can do these days).

I'm not really interested in the UpStage, simply because 1) I've had Samsungs before. They're... okay. 2) I've had Sprint before. It was... okay. Good outdoors, pretty hit-or-miss indoors.

If you feel differently or have had different experiences, more power to you. Get what you like. For what it's worth, I won't be getting the iPhone right off the bat either. Why? Well, Cingular is not very good in my area, #1. #2, I've experienced the customer service of their then parent company, SBC- it was horrible, horrible time. And #3, I'm willing to wait for 3G, and for lower-priced iPhones.

That said, I admire the iPhone for its breakthrough design, UI, and functionality. No hate there, even though I won't be getting one for a long while.

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post #72 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Hey SplineModel, since you know about Lithium Sulphur, what's your take on the new Zinc-Silver batteries due to hit the market soon? A worthy replacement to li-ion tech, or just 'different'?

.

No idea: I haven't looked into Zinc-Silver. Li-S+ seems to have a lot of promise, however.

Although, I will say that there is an official spec on Li-Ion degradation. It comes from the device spec sheets which are downloadable from Toshiba, Sanyo, Varta, etc. That's where I get my figures. You may also notice that the max recommended charge current is often hidden in the details: for an 18650 cell (often used in notebook packs), the number is usually 1400mA for the "fast" regime. The 1C figure (nowadays, about 2400mA for the same type of cell) is listed in the absolute-max-ratings section, but if you ask 10 engineers, 9 of them will quote the 1C figure as the recommended fast-charge current.

So that's today's rant. Device engineers: stop fucking over the customer and start reading your figures, slowing down your chargers, and adding bigger ceramic caps across the batteries. LiIon cells can last for quite a while if the engineering is sound.
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post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

We're talking more mindshare than marketshare. I think most people are aware of how the Zune has fared in the market:


Even Mindshare, the SanDisk has more users. Hell any way you look at it there are usually one of 4 Music Players on any given Muni bus in San Francisco in the following order:
1. iPod
2. Music Phone
3. CD Player
4. Sansa
a distant 5. Playstation Portable (nope, not a joke, usually it's only the first 2 or 3 but this one makes #5)

I've seen about 2 Zunes ANYWHERE

The first was a Girl in my Homeroom. She came in after the holidays with a Black Zune (no doubt a Christmas Present) after using a Black iPod Nano 1st Gen. After about 2 weeks she bought a 2nd Gen Nano, also Black. And about 2 Months later she was and still is using a Pink Nano.

The Second one that I've seen is used by a friend of a friend who I personally think is an asshole, so the Zune he has now probably fits him.

Quote:
I think he's referring more to the fact that Li-ion batteries eventually wear down... after 2 years or about 300 discharge cycles, whichever comes first. Not how good a brand-new iPod's batt is.

.

Good Point.... I'll try not to charge it very much.

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post #74 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

Can you say the iPhone will fit in your pocket easily? But remember, before you start bashing me, I am an Apple fan -- love my mac and I swear by it. But the iPhone at it's present stage doesn't present a threat to people who just want a phone with a camera, and maybe a couple of added features. Not everyone wants/needs/has money for a computer in a phone, know what I mean *cough* college students.

Useless Disclaimers aside, a Nintendo DS and a PSP can fit in one pocket of my pants. Usually the pants I buy have normal sized pockets... but I somehow shove so much junk in them that I stretch them beyond their normal size.

Oh well, I keep my current phone attached to my Laptop Bag, exactly where my iPhone will end up once I pick it up Somewhere between August and November.

Sebastian
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post #75 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Although, I will say that there is an official spec on Li-Ion degradation. It comes from the device spec sheets which are downloadable from Toshiba, Sanyo, Varta, etc. That's where I get my figures. You may also notice that the max recommended charge current is often hidden in the details: for an 18650 cell (often used in notebook packs), the number is usually 1400mA for the "fast" regime. The 1C figure (nowadays, about 2400mA for the same type of cell) is listed in the absolute-max-ratings section, but if you ask 10 engineers, 9 of them will quote the 1C figure as the recommended fast-charge current.

So that's today's rant. Device engineers: stop fucking over the customer and start reading your figures, slowing down your chargers, and adding bigger ceramic caps across the batteries. LiIon cells can last for quite a while if the engineering is sound.

Okay, I do see your point: Li-Ion devices WOULD last to the 'official spec' if only most engineers would design around the correct charge current (and use larger ceramic caps). Noted. But you do realize the flip side of that, assuming that is the entire problem- by your own observation, most engineers don't design this correctly, so in many devices people see Li-ion battery lives nowhere near 'official spec'.

The real world is a different beast than the theoretical one, unfortunately. And even with correct engineering, differences in how users treat, store, and charge/discharge their batteries (and under what temps) would result in battery life that varied from 'official spec' anyway.

Let's just say I WISH I could've gotten to 500 cycles with only 10% degradation on my iBook batt. Urk.

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post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

Even Mindshare, the SanDisk has more users.

Let's be real here... did you NOT notice the ridiculous (and wholly unwarranted) hype surrounding the Zune the past few months, especially around launchtime/the holidays? Yeesh.

Marketshare does not directly correlate to mindshare. Everyone knows Ferrari and Porsche, but very few people actually OWN one.

The Sansa is a fine player, and SanDisk is doing better marketshare-wise than any of Apple's competitors, but they do find a way to fly below the radar somehow. I honestly cannot remember a single SanDisk player ad, on TV, in a newspaper, or on the Internet.

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post #77 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Let's be real here... did you NOT notice the ridiculous (and wholly unwarranted) hype surrounding the Zune the past few months, especially around launchtime/the holidays? Yeesh.

Marketshare does not directly correlate to mindshare. Everyone knows Ferrari and Porsche, but very few people actually OWN one.

The Sansa is a fine player, and SanDisk is doing better marketshare-wise than any of Apple's competitors, but they do find a way to fly below the radar somehow. I honestly cannot remember a single SanDisk player ad, on TV, in a newspaper, or on the Internet.

.

They did that incredibly brilliant "all iPod users are sheep" ad. You know, the one that's like, our player sucks, is ugly, and is way more expensive. Be a trendsetter and do exactly what we say: buy it.
post #78 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Let's be real here... did you NOT notice the ridiculous (and wholly unwarranted) hype surrounding the Zune the past few months, especially around launchtime/the holidays? Yeesh.

Marketshare does not directly correlate to mindshare. Everyone knows Ferrari and Porsche, but very few people actually OWN one.

The Sansa is a fine player, and SanDisk is doing better marketshare-wise than any of Apple's competitors, but they do find a way to fly below the radar somehow. I honestly cannot remember a single SanDisk player ad, on TV, in a newspaper, or on the Internet.

.

The only hype I can seem to recall is the hype about the Zune flopping, which turned out to be true.

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post #79 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

They did that incredibly brilliant "all iPod users are sheep" ad. You know, the one that's like, our player sucks, is ugly, and is way more expensive. Be a trendsetter and do exactly what we say: buy it.

Oh yeah. Now that you bring it up, I remember reading about that ad, but I never saw it. Maybe I'll Google for it.

Btw, I just turned to the guy next to me @ work, and said, "What do you think of SanDisk's mp3 players?" He said, "SanDisk makes mp3 players?".

Methinks they should amp up their marketing budget some. \

.
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post #80 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Oh yeah. Now that you bring it up, I remember reading about that ad, but I never saw it. Maybe I'll Google for it.

Btw, I just turned to the guy next to me @ work, and said, "What do you think of SanDisk's mp3 players?" He said, "SanDisk makes mp3 players?".

Methinks they should amp up their marketing budget some. \

.

Haha, they really should, because it's better to have SanDisk selling more players then it is for Microsoft. This way we can just sit back and watch Microsoft slowly be crushed by it's own weight.

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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
<(=_=)> (>=_=)> <(=_=<) ^(=_=^) (^=_=)^ ^(=_=)^ +(=_=)+
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