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Windows Vista sales figures daunt Apple - Page 3

post #81 of 104
As a windows user I can only say that VISTA is a 100% bust. Overhyped and way overpriced. I am a windows user. I follow apple as I am big into ipods. Called the IPOD king actually. Anyway Vista is a bust. All these years for that? Hard to believe. I have always upgraded since win 3.1 and usually upon release, not ths time. In fact if I upgrade my laptop I will wait a while. I tested vista and there is nothing great abut it. Considering that it is mstly on pcs sold how can microsoft call it a success as they sell almost none at retail. Especially at those crazy prices. 200-300 for an OS upgrade makes no sense when preinstalled machines can be had for 500 or so approx. At least Apple OS upgrades show some real value to their users and are fairly reasonable all things considered.

Rob
post #82 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

More than half of the systems at Dell still ship with XP, and they're one of the big tie-in companies with Vista compatability. The fact is that Vista is great on the top half of currently availiable computers, but XP will stick around on the lower-end models for at least a few more months, I think. Windows 95 was readily available for months after XP.

There's no sense in stores carrying XP, because the next wave of processors and RAM numbers and graphics cards and professional programs and games will all require Vista. Everyone who needs XP already has it. Who the hell would want to buy a new copy of XP in 2 months? Maybe somebody who's trying to build himself a Celeron desktop to save $50 over the bottom end Dell? Why would Microsoft pay to keep stores stocked with XP for those people?

Superbass, my last post was part tongue-in-cheek. Please read the Gutmann paper (see post #54 this thread) if you haven't already done so. The paper is really quite a good thought provoking read. Vista, as currently constructed, will cause MS to either rule the planet through near-monopolistic control of the premium video content channel (much as Apple does with audio) or to self-destruct. My guess is that MS will be forced to revise Vista to relax the video DRM stranglehold. IMO, once (if?) end-users and the business world really understand the hidden bombshell embedded in Vista and its ramifications for the future, they will avoid it like the plague.
post #83 of 104
i wonder if that includes the licenses from the "express upgrades" that come with every XP machine nowadays...
post #84 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe2211 View Post

Superbass, my last post was part tongue-in-cheek. Please read the Gutmann paper (see post #54 this thread) if you haven't already done so. The paper is really quite a good thought provoking read. Vista, as currently constructed, will cause MS to either rule the planet through near-monopolistic control of the premium video content channel (much as Apple does with audio) or to self-destruct. My guess is that MS will be forced to revise Vista to relax the video DRM stranglehold. IMO, once (if?) end-users and the business world really understand the hidden bombshell embedded in Vista and its ramifications for the future, they will avoid it like the plague.

I personally think DRM is important to the future, and right now Microsoft is really trying to make it work, even if that isn't quite happening yet... I don't think DRM will relax, I think it'll just be more smartly implemented as technology progresses, and as the Vista revisions progress. Better to get with in now than wait until it becomes law - imagine what would happen to apple if it was faced with a court order to start implementing DRM...

In a year or 2 when internet speeds are that much higher and anyone can dL a movie super easily and filesharing gets even more dominant, there won't be any way for moviemakers to make money. It's already sucking the life out of the music industry - lots of people just say it's the industry's fault for not "getting with the times", but really it's just way too easy to steal music, and getting there with movies... And the film industry will have a lot more sway with the governments of the world than the music industry has...
post #85 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

I personally think DRM is important to the future, and right now Microsoft is really trying to make it work, even if that isn't quite happening yet... I don't think DRM will relax, I think it'll just be more smartly implemented as technology progresses, and as the Vista revisions progress. Better to get with in now than wait until it becomes law - imagine what would happen to apple if it was faced with a court order to start implementing DRM...

In a year or 2 when internet speeds are that much higher and anyone can dL a movie super easily and filesharing gets even more dominant, there won't be any way for moviemakers to make money. It's already sucking the life out of the music industry - lots of people just say it's the industry's fault for not "getting with the times", but really it's just way too easy to steal music, and getting there with movies... And the film industry will have a lot more sway with the governments of the world than the music industry has...

So, do you agree with Gutmann or not?
post #86 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe2211 View Post

So, do you agree with Gutmann or not?

Well, I only read the "executive summary", as I don't really feel like wading through the entire report - I'd say that if Vista's DRM is about to cause billions of dollars in wasted time and energy, Microsoft will probably patch it...

I also know that the title of Gutmann's own homepage is Peter Gutmann, "Professional Paranoid"

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/

So, I'm not sure if you should take his doomsday prediction of Vista DRM too seriously. I don't.

EDIT : Hey, I also took a look at some of Gutmann's sources, one of the key arguments regarding Vista's (as well as a nVidia and Radeon hardware) support of HD content and DRM comes from a video game magazine article from feb. 2006, which maybe isn't the best source he could have used when judging Vista, which was shipped a year later...

Also, a big part of his argument is that DRM uses system resources ("wasting" processing power) and forces hardware manufacturers to "waste" time getting their products compatible - isn't this pretty standard for major operating system releases, that hardware needs to get faster, and compatibility changes? Otherwise we could run Leopard on a 1st gen iBook and plug in our Epson dot-matrix printers with no problems...

He also seems to just have a problem with the idea of protected media content in general, calling Hollywood greedy for wanting to pirate-proof BluRay and HDVD...
post #87 of 104
Check it out, all you Mac doubters out there:
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/conte..._too_high.html
post #88 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

Check it out, all you Mac doubters out there:
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/conte..._too_high.html

Thank you. Excellent, analytic article. This is what AI's headline article should have been.
post #89 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Doesnt matter how many copies of vista Microsoft said it "sold".......So, nice joke dude.

Actually, it does. Senior execs of MSFT could end up in jail under something like Reg FD if they lie about things like this.
post #90 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Well, I only read the "executive summary", as I don't really feel like wading through the entire report - I'd say that if Vista's DRM is about to cause billions of dollars in wasted time and energy, Microsoft will probably patch it...

I also know that the title of Gutmann's own homepage is Peter Gutmann, "Professional Paranoid"

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/

So, I'm not sure if you should take his doomsday prediction of Vista DRM too seriously. I don't.

EDIT : Hey, I also took a look at some of Gutmann's sources, one of the key arguments regarding Vista's (as well as a nVidia and Radeon hardware) support of HD content and DRM comes from a video game magazine article from feb. 2006, which maybe isn't the best source he could have used when judging Vista, which was shipped a year later...

Also, a big part of his argument is that DRM uses system resources ("wasting" processing power) and forces hardware manufacturers to "waste" time getting their products compatible - isn't this pretty standard for major operating system releases, that hardware needs to get faster, and compatibility changes? Otherwise we could run Leopard on a 1st gen iBook and plug in our Epson dot-matrix printers with no problems...

He also seems to just have a problem with the idea of protected media content in general, calling Hollywood greedy for wanting to pirate-proof BluRay and HDVD...

Gutmann calls himself a "Professional Paranoid"--tongue in cheek- because he's a security expert and it's his job to trust no one, suspect everyone in the hacker-laden, virus riffled Windows universe. He's also an academic type who documents everything.

As to your other comments, remember that Vista was in beta testing for a long time. When you get the time, I respectfully suggest you read the whole article, footnotes, references, conclusions, post hoc comments to MS response to the article, and all. He updates the "epilogue" section periodically as more commentary filters in to his site. If you disagree, fine. But I can tell you that he has scared the bejeezus out of other windows (equally paranoid) security experts, most notably Steve Gibson. There are several windows forums that discuss Gutmann's paper at length (hello Google). Although I agree with Gutmann's analysis and conclusions, I hope he's dead wrong because if not, MS will rule the planet in a couple of years.
post #91 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

Check it out, all you Mac doubters out there:
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/conte..._too_high.html

A Ziff Davis survey of IT organization's queried their Vista deployment plans . It was interesting that ~45% of IT orgs had no plans to deploy Vista or are waiting >13 months to do so. !7 % more were planning to wait at least 18 months. 17 % had already started. Just a few factoids for the curious.
post #92 of 104
It's all well and good for Microsoft. I really don't care. I love going home and using my mac after the all day drudgery of using this archaic PC. I think Apples market is changing, slowly but surely. Since I have switched to Apple a year ago, I have had 8 of my close friends use my PB and fall instantly in love with it. Now they are ALL Apple users.

Friends don't let friends buy PC's.

Just kidding to each is own!
post #93 of 104
copies of Vista sold do not equal copies of Vista *installed*.

copies of Vista "sold" aren't necessarily sold. the numbers actually include:
-BETA and DEMO copies distributed
-estimates of license upgrades business users will buy
-copies SHIPPED, but not necessarily SOLD
-copies preloaded on machines (this is ALWAYS an estimate--only activation can provide verification)
-copies given away (actually many thousands)
-copies USED WITHIN MICROSOFT AND ITS SUBSIDIARIES (this can be upwards of several hundred thousand licenses)

and so on, and so on, etc etc ad nauseam.


in other words, numbers are mostly bulls*it.
post #94 of 104
oh my god! Hyundai is selling more cars! guess i'd better not buy that Mercedes, since most people drive Hyundais...i don't want to be seen not driving one.

oh. my. god. Windows. still. SUCKS.
post #95 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulyssespdx View Post

oh my god! Hyundai is selling more cars! guess i'd better not buy that Mercedes, since most people drive Hyundais...i don't want to be seen not driving one.


Believe me, you don't want a Mercedes
post #96 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulyssespdx View Post

copies of Vista sold do not equal copies of Vista *installed*.

copies of Vista "sold" aren't necessarily sold. the numbers actually include:
-BETA and DEMO copies distributed
-estimates of license upgrades business users will buy
-copies SHIPPED, but not necessarily SOLD
-copies preloaded on machines (this is ALWAYS an estimate--only activation can provide verification)
-copies given away (actually many thousands)
-copies USED WITHIN MICROSOFT AND ITS SUBSIDIARIES (this can be upwards of several hundred thousand licenses)

and so on, and so on, etc etc ad nauseam.


in other words, numbers are mostly bulls*it.

See the excellent post by alansky in this thread (#87). The eWeek Microsoft Watch article referred therin breaks out and defines all of the Vista "sold" categories nicely.

Speaking of MS, I'm in a quite pissy mood today because I just wasted 3 MF hours dueling with windows very excellent program remover function in the control f**king panel (on a clients high end HP desktop with XP/SP2). It's sort of like a slot machime--some times you get 3 lemons in a line and hit the jackpot and the f**king program is removed. And sometimes not. The uninstaller screen just sits there not finishing and Windows task f**king manager says everything is running just ducky. Take your f**king Trusted Platform Module and.....

Geez, I needed that rant. Another wasted afternoon courtesy of MS.
post #97 of 104
post #98 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulyssespdx View Post

oh my god! Hyundai is selling more cars! guess i'd better not buy that Mercedes, since most people drive Hyundais...i don't want to be seen not driving one.

oh. my. god. Windows. still. SUCKS.

Not that I own (or have driven) one, but Hyundai quality seems to have made giant strides in the past few years. (And DaimlerChrysler may have regressed.)
post #99 of 104
I'll start by saying that I am waiting out "spring 2007" as patiently as possible* (just to express which side of things I'm on). I'm speaking mostly out of ignorance here since the only Apple product I've ever purchased was a Mac Mini when they first came out and got Tiger later on as a gift *clears throat*. Anyway, everybody has been bitching (rightly) about how M$ is forcing Vista down the consumers' throat w/o offering the possibility of buying a machine w/XP instead. My question is: when(ever) Leopard comes out, will it be possible to get a Mac with Tiger instead of the new, super fantastilicious top-secret loaded os? Is Apple good (read: any better than msft) at providing options regarding which os comes installed with a new machine?

Just curious...
jdo

*haven't decided whether it'll be the white 2.0 ghz MB or the low-end MBP, $$$ being the big issue...by the way, does anyone really think that it's worth it to pay $200 more for the blacbook over the $1299 MB just for an extra 40 gb and the black case???
post #100 of 104
jotadeo,

Just love that word " fantastilicious ". A portmanteau that Lewis Carroll might have used to describe a Mac if he was in the market for buying one for Alice.
post #101 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe2211 View Post

jotadeo,

Just love that word " fantastilicious ". A portmanteaux that Lewis Carroll might have used to describe a Mac if he was in the market for buying one for Alice.

Thanks for such an elegant compliment! You make it sound like I have a way with words. Actually, I think it may have been the result of my physical and mental exhaustion...but most likely it was the ADD medicine.
post #102 of 104
As much as I'd love to poke holes in Microsoft's sales numbers, the truth is that I can't. Why? Well, because whether it's 17 million copies or 20 million copies, that's still a ton of copies of Windows Vista sold at a time when it is NOT a holiday shopping season.

So the point remains that if only 17 million copies of Windows Vista was sold in its first YEAR of release (instead of the first two or three months as reported here) months, then that would still be a massive amount compared to the ENTIRE Mac installed user base.

It just proves how tough it is to topple a monopoly, unfortunately.

What I'd like to know is how many of those buyers were businesses and how many were home users.
post #103 of 104
toosday,

You really gotta check out alansky's reference (post #87). MS' 20 million number does not compute.

From the article:

"The number's meaning collapses for three simple reasons:

* Microsoft's sales period for the license sales is significantly longer than 30 daysmore like four months.

* License sales into the channel do not correspond to actual Vista PC sales out of the channel.

* The numbers don't match up with real world PC sales volumes."
post #104 of 104
While it is amusing to see Vista getting a lukewarm reception at best, in the short term it does not matter.
It is hard to avoid Vista. Once DirectX 10 settles in, the gamers will switch. With the gamers come the family members they advise, and the windows hipsters and geeks.
It'll be damn hard to avoid vista in retail, so it'll be a roaring financial succes in the short to mid-term.

Long-term it might just piss of enough users and that Red hat, Novell and Apple become more credible alternatives, which might dock a few points off MS's market share.
Already we are seeing a shift in mindset. Apple's getting more popular with both developers and businesses. The Linux-ecosystem is also growing rapidly. These processes do however take a lot of time.

Then again, MS is such a behemoth that it's hard to see a way for the company to fail short of massive regulatory action by the US or EU. Apple can't be bought by MS, and Linux can't be bought up either, due to the free and open licences. This means that MS will probably not have the option to buy their way out of the technological swamp that is called windows, but has to make the effort internally. Succeed or fail, that process too will take time.
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