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Pelosi May Have Committed A Felony - Page 4

post #121 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Not if those trips were cleared by State.

To which I should add: now, if you or I just went to Syria without informing State and met with the president and explained how he could resolve the tensions between the US and Syria, then yes. That's a violation.

Does State have the authority to "clear" it?
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post #122 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yes, it's Think Progress. But why are you taking the claim of the interviewee as being infallible?

Let me get this straight:

Your position, now, is that a sitting congressman who went on a trip to Syria alongside the Speaker of the House (and several other representatives from both sides of the aisle), is not lying about whether or not State and the office of the POTUS were informed of their trip and whether or not they went in defiance of an order not to go?
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post #123 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Does State have the authority to "clear" it?


I'll ask one of my Poli Sci friends, but when I mentioned this to one of them today, she said that State would have cleared it.
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post #124 of 170
... were David Bonior, Jim McDermott, and Mike Thompson cleared by State for their pre-war trip to Baghdad?
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post #125 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

... were David Bonior, Jim McDermott, and Mike Thompson cleared by State for their pre-war trip to Baghdad?

Dunno. But Pelosi's brigade was.
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post #126 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Let me get this straight:

Your position, now, is that a sitting congressman who went on a trip to Syria alongside the Speaker of the House (and several other representatives from both sides of the aisle), is not lying about whether or not State and the office of the POTUS were informed of their trip and whether or not they went in defiance of an order not to go?

No, I'm taking issue with the claim that Bush was perfectly fine with her going. Isn't that the claim that was made?
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post #127 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I'll ask one of my Poli Sci friends, but when I mentioned this to one of them today, she said that State would have cleared it.

OK. I'm also curious as to what "clear" means. Does that mean they were briefed, prepped, etc? Or does the State Department actually legally "clear" them?
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post #128 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

No, I'm taking issue with the claim that Bush was perfectly fine with her going. Isn't that the claim that was made?

The comment was that Bush was notified of their intention to visit and while he thought it was a bad idea did not tell them not to go.
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post #129 of 170
I hate Fox News. I hate Newt Gingrich. I hate Chris Wallace. But Wallace has a good point.


Fox Calls Out Gingrich Hypocrisy on Pelosi Trip to Syria


There is video and I'll post the transcript:

GINGRICH: I think its very important not to have two foreign policies and I think its very dangerous for America to do what Speaker Pelosi did.

WALLACE: Mr. Speaker, we looked at your record, and lets put up some of the instances. During a trip to china in 1997, you told leaders there, We will defend Taiwan, period, when U.S. policy on defending Taiwan was much vaguer than that. Just before a trip to Israel in 1998, you said, I think its wrong for the American Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, to become the agent for the Palestinians. Werent you more provocative than Speaker Pelosi?

GINGRICH: Look, Speaker Pelosi can be very provacative within the U.S. What I said in China was U.S. policy

WALLACE: Not accord to the Clinton administration it wasnt.

GINGRICH: President Clinton had just put U.S. aircraft carriers in the straits of Taiwan. I mean, the American position has always been we do not recognize Taiwan as an independent country. We would protect Taiwan if there was a Chinese Peoples Republic invaded Taiwan. I think it was very important for the Chinese to understand that there was a unified agreement. They were being very aggressive at that time.

WALLACE: And what about saying that Madeleine Albright was an agent for the Palestinians?

GINGRICH: I think at the time she was taking steps that were very, very pro-Palestinian.

WALLACE: But you understand my point it looks like there were two foreign policies?

GINGRICH: The one time I said something that was too strong when I was outside the U.S., I didnt say anything in the U.S. thats part of the American political system. One time I said there was something wrong, I said publicly Id made a mistake, and I pulled back because I do believe that you have to coordinate. And I think that both Sandy Berger and President Clinton would tell you that we talked constantly about foreign policy and tried to work together in a whole range of issues on foreign policy.

And of all blogs Think Progress, one of SDW's favorite blogs...

Simply put: THIS IS A NON-ISSUE.

Can we get back to more important things like the "gwb43.com" scandal?
post #130 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

OK. I'm also curious as to what "clear" means. Does that mean they were briefed, prepped, etc? Or does the State Department actually legally "clear" them?

I'll ask, if you want. My understanding is that no elected representative goes to a foreign country in an official capacity (i.e. as a representative and not just a citizen) without notifying State and being essentially OK'd to travel there in an official capacity.

In short, could Pelosi go to Syria and do some shopping without telling anyone? Sure. Can Pelosi arrange to meet with the head of state of a foreign country without telling anyone? I don't think so.

But I'll ask.

OK. Technically, they oughta notify state of any foreign visits, but they don't hafta, so I'm sorta wrong in my thinking. Also technically, the fact that she was not held at the airport indicates the OK of State (just like it does for anyone traveling abroad). If State didn't want her to go, it could have stopped her. If the president didn't want her to go, he could have stopped her.

Additionally, technically, the only person who speaks on behalf of the US to another government is Rice (even the president speaks in terms of foreign policy through state).

So anyway.
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post #131 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post


Can we get back to more important things like the "gwb43.com" scandal?

No kidding. Blatant violation of the presidential records act.
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post #132 of 170
She's not broken any laws, seeing as how:
A) She's not negotiated with Assad, merely had a dialogue.

and

B) As a member of the US Congress, she is actually authorized to negotiate with foreign governments.

Can we close this thread now?
post #133 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

She's not broken any laws, seeing as how:
A) She's not negotiated with Assad, merely had a dialogue.

and

B) As a member of the US Congress, she is actually authorized to negotiate with foreign governments.

Can we close this thread now?


A) So? She conveyed US positions...and positions of Israel as well.

B) Uh, I don't know about that. Linky?
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post #134 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

A) So? She conveyed US positions...and positions of Israel as well.

B) Uh, I don't know about that. Linky?

Jeez, go stew in it then.
post #135 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

A) So? She conveyed US positions...and positions of Israel as well.

So did CNN.

Quote:
B) Uh, I don't know about that. Linky?

Only the department of State is authorized to negotiate with other governments.
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post #136 of 170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

So did CNN.



Only the department of State is authorized to negotiate with other governments.

1. How? That's clearly not the same.

2. Agreed.
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post #137 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

1. How? That's clearly not the same.

CNN, those treasonous bastards, regularly broadcast the US and Israeli positions on a wide range of political issues. HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO CONTROL WHO RECEIVES THOSE BROADCASTS, HMMMMMM???? Clearly, by conveying US and Israeli positions, they may be in violation of the Logan Act.

SOMEONE START A THREAD!!

Quote:
2. Agreed.

Thank you. Thread finished. Absurd talking point finished.

Ooh! A subpoena!
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post #138 of 170
Subpoena? Pffffft. Political theater and partisan nonsense.

Have you ever noticed how tight Pelosi's face looks?
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post #139 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Subpoena? Pffffft. Political theater and partisan nonsense.

Have you ever noticed how tight Pelosi's face looks?

It's probably from all that breastfeeding on the House floor.
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post #140 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

It's probably from all that breastfeeding on the House floor.

Yeah. I wish to Christ that they would stop breastfeeding Pelosi on the House floor. It's unseemly.
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post #141 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post


Ooh! A subpoena!

Another "fake" scandal... no wait, it involves a conservative. Nevermind. "Fire" away.
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post #142 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

CNN, those treasonous bastards, regularly broadcast the US and Israeli positions on a wide range of political issues. HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO CONTROL WHO RECEIVES THOSE BROADCASTS, HMMMMMM???? Clearly, by conveying US and Israeli positions, they may be in violation of the Logan Act.

SOMEONE START A THREAD!!



Thank you. Thread finished. Absurd talking point finished.

Ooh! A subpoena!

Silly midwinter. Silly. You're dipping into the alkie again, I think.
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post #143 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Another "fake" scandal... no wait, it involves a conservative. Nevermind. "Fire" away.


You do know you're doing exactly what you accused me of doing?

Making your little noncommital comments and then dancing away.

Now that's what I call trolling!

Besides what makes you so sure it's fake? Mr. I think the republicans and the democrats are equally bad.
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post #144 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You do know you're doing exactly what you accused me of doing?

Making your little noncommital comments and then dancing away.

Now that's what I call trolling!

Besides what makes you so sure it's fake? Mr. I think the republicans and the democrats are equally bad.

Um.. that was directed at addabox concerning the "fake" scandal comment. I don't know wether it is fake or not... I just think its funny that all Dem scandals are trumped up, while we must seriously consider everything that is thrown at Republicans. It's just funny to me. That's all.

Subpoena and convict em all, I say.
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post #145 of 170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Um.. that was directed at addabox concerning the "fake" scandal comment. I don't know wether it is fake or not... I just think its funny that all Dem scandals are trumped up, while we must seriously consider everything that is thrown at Republicans. It's just funny to me. That's all.

Subpoena and convict em all, I say.

That's really all I've been saying.
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post #146 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That's really all I've been saying.

You've been saying that Pelosi may have committed a felony. You only started saying "Hang'em all" when you got pushback.

Start a thread about Trafficant or Jefferson and see who claims this is a fake scandal. I'm sorry that your guys are so brazenly corrupt. I am. But just because Delay laundered money and Abramoff bribed everyone on earth and the WH is violating the presidential records act doesn't mean that there must, therefore, be equal corruption among the Dems. I'm sure there are corrupt Dems, and more power to you to go get'em. But the legacy of recent Republican investigations into Dem wrongdoing is pretty shitty: filegate? travelgate? whitewater? Anything come out of those other than the president being impeached for lying about an affair?
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post #147 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

You've been saying that Pelosi may have committed a felony. You only started saying "Hang'em all" when you got pushback.

Start a thread about Trafficant or Jefferson and see who claims this is a fake scandal. I'm sorry that your guys are so brazenly corrupt. I am. But just because Delay laundered money and Abramoff bribed everyone on earth and the WH is violating the presidential records act doesn't mean that there must, therefore, be equal corruption among the Dems. I'm sure there are corrupt Dems, and more power to you to go get'em. But the legacy of recent Republican investigations into Dem wrongdoing is pretty shitty: filegate? travelgate? whitewater? Anything come out of those other than the president being impeached for lying about an affair?

All those you just mentioned about Republicans are fake. The ones that focus on Democrats are not fake. They are 101% true. You guys make fake scandals to distract from the fake scandals that we originally started during our last real scandal defense.

It is impossible for you, or anyone else to know what is and is not a fake scandal, who got paid off when and by who, and who knew what and when. Just look at the Plame situation. How much did we go through there? And with Whitewater? And with __________? Face it that you and I are buried miles deep in the fourthhand information category and by the time it all gets out of the Beltway, its too scrambled for anyone to decipher. We defend people that we think are going to create an America we want to see... and we are glad to trash those who want to create an America that we don't want. Ideological warfare that went hot-pickle about 1994.
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post #148 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

You've been saying that Pelosi may have committed a felony. You only started saying "Hang'em all" when you got pushback.

Start a thread about Trafficant or Jefferson and see who claims this is a fake scandal. I'm sorry that your guys are so brazenly corrupt. I am. But just because Delay laundered money and Abramoff bribed everyone on earth and the WH is violating the presidential records act doesn't mean that there must, therefore, be equal corruption among the Dems. I'm sure there are corrupt Dems, and more power to you to go get'em. But the legacy of recent Republican investigations into Dem wrongdoing is pretty shitty: filegate? travelgate? whitewater? Anything come out of those other than the president being impeached for lying about an affair?

"My guys?"

The fact is that both parties have corruption in them, and you're a fool to think the Republicans have more.
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post #149 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"My guys?"

The fact is that both parties have corruption in them, and you're a fool to think the Republicans have more.

BTW, SDW, I'm looking for a Republican with $90k in his or her freezer. Please let me know.
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post #150 of 170
BTW, SDW, I'm looking for any shred of evidence that Jubelum is NOT a registered Republican.

Because we all know $90k in a freezer is exactly the same thing as "lying to start a war", "abu grahaib", "warantless wiretaps", "politicization of Homeland Security", "politicization of the justice department", "valerie plame", and on and on and on....

And I love the mentality of "pox of both thier houses". What it really means is, "fuck you!"
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post #151 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

BTW, SDW, I'm looking for any shred of evidence that Jubelum is NOT a registered Republican.

Because we all know $90k in a freezer is exactly the same thing as "lying to start a war", "abu grahaib", "warantless wiretaps", "politicization of Homeland Security", "politicization of the justice department", "valerie plame", and on and on and on....

And I love the mentality of "pox of both thier houses". What it really means is, "fuck you!"

2-D, pigeonhole world again. I'm not going to waste time talking about that mistake a third time.

I believe in conservative principles. I do not have any faith left in the Republican party or its ability to behave properly when in power, their willingness to follow through on their platform, et al. I find little that endears the Democrats to me, by the same token. So I believe that Right-Libertarianism is the way to go, Ron Paul style. So call me whatever you want if it makes it easier on you. I'm a little guy. And I do not like it when little guys get squished by big guys of whatever party stripe.
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post #152 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"My guys?"

The fact is that both parties have corruption in them, and you're a fool to think the Republicans have more.

Why? It always seem to come down to this, that it's some kind of natural law that both parties are always "equally corrupt" so that any given scandal is perforce cancelled out by another scandal from across the aisle.

But history shows that particular American political parties have had periods of increased corruption, unilaterally, usually because of periods of unfettered power.

So after a period of controlling the White House and Congress, and during which that White House has been very focused on using access to the levers of governance to consolidate political power, why wouldn't the Republicans be "more corrupt"? Toss in the fact that the Republicans basically said "We are the pro corporate, pro free market, anti-regulation, anti-tax ones, so throw your lot in with us and you'll be rewarded", and how could they not be?

You think when Cheney meets with big oil to craft domestic energy policy and refuses to reveal how that went down it's a sign of public mindedness?

It has nothing to do with Dems being "better" or Republicans being "evil" or any of that shit that ya'll always want to make it about.

It's just that we are coming off a period when Republicans had all the marbles, put Karl Rove in the White House, decided to turn the entire lobbying industry into their personal piggy bank, started a war, and used 9/11 as a cudgel to prevent any serious oversight of their doings. It's practically an ideal petri dish for corruption, of the large scale, systematic sort.

This absolutely pathetic effort to make all that "equal and opposite to" a bunch of bitchy little kvetching that would be more suited to a junior high cafeteria, just because you know in your heart that it "must" be true that the Democrats are "equally corrupt", is getting really old.

Really, you need to stop insisting that things like the trumped up Pelosi plane deal is right up their with using RNC email addresses to conduct government business, because it's just so very obvious how weak and desperate that is.

Just endlessly asserting it over and over doesn't make it seem more plausible, it just makes you seem stubborn and clueless, which is a shame because I don't think you are, mostly, but you're just really dug in on this point.

Like Midwinter says, if you want to start threads on actual corrupt Dems like Jefferson, by all means, have at it. I will certainly make the argument that there is a difference in scale and interconnectedness, but at least we won't be talking about entirely different categories of behavior.

EDIT FOR TYPOS AND CONTENT
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post #153 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Like Midwinter says, if you want to start threads on actual corrupt Dems like Jefferson, by all means, have at it. I will certainly make the argument that there is a difference in scale and interconnectedness, but at least we won't be talking about entirely different categories of behavior.

Or the Feinstein war-profiteering thing. That thing stinks badly and it has NO media coverage outside the right-wing news outlets.
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post #154 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Or the Feinstein war-profiteering thing. That thing stinks badly and it has NO media coverage outside the right-wing news outlets.

Maybe we can get a two-fer with DiFi, in addition to the "I want to ban guns for Americans while I have one for personal protection" scandals...
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post #155 of 170
Sa-weeeeet! Madame Speaker mulls trip to hang with President Tom!

Wow. This warms my heart. <giddy>

Maybe Prez Tom can tell Tom Lantos about the myth of the Holocaust! Good times!
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post #156 of 170
Except her office has already said she has no intention of visiting Iran, so I guess the right wing blogosphere will have to stand down.
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post #157 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Or the Feinstein war-profiteering thing. That thing stinks badly and it has NO media coverage outside the right-wing news outlets.

Excellent example. Never liked her anyway-- when she became mayor of SF after Milk was murdered, she was seen as the "establishment" figure, who promptly began to move SF politics back towards the developer friendly back room big money model the voters had specifically repudiated in electing Milk.

I think she's a good example of the kind of "old money" dem that is a permanent member of the corportist party. Her husband's real estate dealings have always been a source of unease if not naked conflict of interest, here abouts.

I would welcome a Democratic led investigation, although I can't imagine that happening to someone as well connected as DiFi.

It's not true, however, that only right wing blogs are on this. Plenty of liberal sites, including Counterpunch, are pissed as hell.
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post #158 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

...

Oh wait, there was one other thing..... oh yeah: THAT'S WHAT THE MOTHERFUCKING CIA SAYS.

...

Again, not really up to parsing this, but if one of the points is that I am claiming that Republicans are evil and always wrong and that Democrats never err, really, just fuck off.

...

You actually seem to believe that a made up story (and yes, it's a made up story! Fucking do a little research, for god's sake!) ...

I find that when the far left and far right manage to really piss you off that your IQ drops a good 20-30 points. Given they are used to operating short 20-30 IQ points they then have the decided advantage...

One note about Nixon...you know it USED to be we could point at bad democratic presidents and chortle and when they pointed at bad republican presidents we could say "Well, no one ever called Nixon an idiot...corrupt...yes...idiot no".

Today...not so much. I'll trade Bush for Clinton thanks. Bad taste in women, yes. Idiot, no.

Thank the neo-cons for making Clinton look like great president. In truth the guy wasn't all that bad for a democrat. Can you imagine if Gary Hart had been elected? Follow me around...

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post #159 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I will certainly make the argument that there is a difference in scale and interconnectedness, but at least we won't be talking about entirely different categories of behavior.

Or in the greatest tradition of Anita Hill- "It is not the nature of the evidence but the seriousness of the charge" that should win the day. That puts a premium on outrageous charges over evidence. That bar was set high back in the early 1990s. Thanks, Chairman Biden.
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post #160 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I hate Fox News. I hate Newt Gingrich. I hate Chris Wallace. But Wallace has a good point.

I think both liberals and conservatives forget that Fox views news as entertainment where ratings are paramount. When the country polled conservative and GWB polled high they acted accordingly.

Now...

However, I think that Fox will suddenly realize that folks do have memories. Alienating conservatives wont bring many liberal viewers. Just lose a lot of conservative ones. I suspect they know that but...

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