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Pelosi May Have Committed A Felony - Page 5

post #161 of 170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Why? It always seem to come down to this, that it's some kind of natural law that both parties are always "equally corrupt" so that any given scandal is perforce cancelled out by another scandal from across the aisle.

But history shows that particular American political parties have had periods of increased corruption, unilaterally, usually because of periods of unfettered power.

So after a period of controlling the White House and Congress, and during which that White House has been very focused on using access to the levers of governance to consolidate political power, why wouldn't the Republicans be "more corrupt"? Toss in the fact that the Republicans basically said "We are the pro corporate, pro free market, anti-regulation, anti-tax ones, so throw your lot in with us and you'll be rewarded", and how could they not be?

You think when Cheney meets with big oil to craft domestic energy policy and refuses to reveal how that went down it's a sign of public mindedness?

It has nothing to do with Dems being "better" or Republicans being "evil" or any of that shit that ya'll always want to make it about.

It's just that we are coming off a period when Republicans had all the marbles, put Karl Rove in the White House, decided to turn the entire lobbying industry into their personal piggy bank, started a war, and used 9/11 as a cudgel to prevent any serious oversight of their doings. It's practically an ideal petri dish for corruption, of the large scale, systematic sort.

This absolutely pathetic effort to make all that "equal and opposite to" a bunch of bitchy little kvetching that would be more suited to a junior high cafeteria, just because you know in your heart that it "must" be true that the Democrats are "equally corrupt", is getting really old.

Really, you need to stop insisting that things like the trumped up Pelosi plane deal is right up their with using RNC email addresses to conduct government business, because it's just so very obvious how weak and desperate that is.

Just endlessly asserting it over and over doesn't make it seem more plausible, it just makes you seem stubborn and clueless, which is a shame because I don't think you are, mostly, but you're just really dug in on this point.

Like Midwinter says, if you want to start threads on actual corrupt Dems like Jefferson, by all means, have at it. I will certainly make the argument that there is a difference in scale and interconnectedness, but at least we won't be talking about entirely different categories of behavior.

EDIT FOR TYPOS AND CONTENT

If you're just arguing that the party in power tends to be more corrupt because they have the goods to BE corrupt (handing out of favors, etc.) I will agree with that principle. It certainly would seem logical.

We disagree on specifics. You're going to find cases of corruption (bribes, financial crimes, etc) in each party. What I'm asking you not to do is buy into the Dems ridiculous "Culture of Corruption" line...which is nothing more than a campaign slogan.
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post #162 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Um.. that was directed at addabox concerning the "fake" scandal comment. I don't know wether it is fake or not... I just think its funny that all Dem scandals are trumped up, while we must seriously consider everything that is thrown at Republicans. It's just funny to me. That's all.

Subpoena and convict em all, I say.

Well to be fair it wasn't all that many years ago that things were the other way around.
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post #163 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well to be fair it wasn't all that many years ago that things were the other way around.

How true. Is our political system and spirit of loyal contention dead? It would seem that the bitterness is making no one but "they" into winners these days...
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post #164 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

the WH is violating the presidential records act

OOPS! Can't say I didn't see that one coming.
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post #165 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

What I'm asking you not to do is buy into the Dems ridiculous "Culture of Corruption" line...which is nothing more than a campaign slogan.

I find this line particularly rich especially coming from a member of a party that specializes in "framing the issue" and creating one-line zingers like "flip flopper" and "Defeatocrats".

So don't be surprised when your cries for reasonable discourse falls on deaf ears.
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post #166 of 170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I find this line particularly rich especially coming from a member of a party that specializes in "framing the issue" and creating one-line zingers like "flip flopper" and "Defeatocrats".

So don't be surprised when your cries for reasonable discourse falls on deaf ears.

See here again, pretending that only the GOP does this is ridiculous. And it's not me creating those slogans, not unless I'm just cracking a joke or something.
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post #167 of 170
I don't think it's an unwarranted characterization.

Look: there's corruption and then there's corruption. There's graft, pay for play, cronyism, kickbacks, partisan tinkering in what should be nonpartisan process, etc. I would never argue that any of these are the special provenance of one party; it's demonstrably untrue.

But the Republican party under Karl Rove has taken a different turn: all that and more has been drafted into the service of ensuring one party rule forever (obviously not entirely successfully, but that's another matter).

Everything that has stunk about the Bush administration-- everything-- has flowed from this central project. The Abramoff convictions and investigations, very clearly arising out of the K Street project and the blurring of the lines between "lobbyist" and "RNC operative". Failures of national policy, as in the case of FEMA after Katrina, or the startling incompetence and lack of relevant experience amongst the people charged with carrying out Iraqi reconstruction, all flowing from loyalty to Bush and the Republican party being made the primary criteria for public service. The current Justice Department investigations, and the strong indications that hiring and firing of US attorneys was being predicated on loyalty to Bush, the RNC, and a willingness to carry out politically motivated investigations.

Even the central failure of the Bush administration, the Iraq war, seems to have been at least in part expedited by a break-down in policy apparatus and the ascendancy of political calculation as the only organizing principle within the White House.

And I doubt we have seen the full extent of what this single minded politicalization has done to the capacity of the federal government to function. Every time an agency or department is scrutinized, we discover that career professionals have been driven out or fired and been replaced with "loyal Bushies", who somehow never seem to have the least experience in the operations they are charged with carrying out. Every time an agency or department is scrutinized we discover that coherent, results oriented policy and implementation is being supplanted by message control and furthering Republican interests-- and by "interests" I do not mean "legislative agenda" but rather "consolidation of power".

Karl Rove very clearly decided that having gotten control of the federal apparatus, if could be used to make sure he would never have to relinquish that control.

That is a "culture of corruption", in a way that makes the usual corporate junkets and quid pro quo gifts seem quaintly old fashioned.

The thing is, for the folks that want to defend all this as if they were defending "conservative values" or "the Republican agenda" against the opportunistic attacks of "the left": you're shooting yourself in the foot. None of this has the slightest to do with values or legislation. It's power for its own sake, and only tangentially related to what we used to think of as "conservative". It's the recasting of the Republican party as an end in and of itself, whose only agenda is to stay in power.

I know I'll be told that thus it has ever been, that that's what political parties do, but that is cynical lie. This level of political coordination, this level of political primacy, is unprecedented.

Or, as John DiIulio, the guy formerly in charge of Bush's "faith based initiative" programs (and who quite after a year) said: "There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a policy apparatus. What you've got is everything -- and I mean everything -- being run by the political arm. It's the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis."

That may not be a "culture of corruption per se, but it sure is an almost guaranteed set-up for one.
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post #168 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

See here again, pretending that only the GOP does this is ridiculous. And it's not me creating those slogans, not unless I'm just cracking a joke or something.

Excuse me. Where am I "pretending that only GOP does this"? I don't pretend shit.

If you re-read my post I'm saying that I refuse to listen to your rants against Democrat sloganeering when you're party is the master of it.
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post #169 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I don't think it's an unwarranted characterization.

Look: there's corruption and then there's corruption. There's graft, pay for play, cronyism, kickbacks, partisan tinkering in what should be nonpartisan process, etc. I would never argue that any of these are the special provenance of one party; it's demonstrably untrue.

But the Republican party under Karl Rove has taken a different turn: all that and more has been drafted into the service of ensuring one party rule forever (obviously not entirely successfully, but that's another matter).

Everything that has stunk about the Bush administration-- everything-- has flowed from this central project. The Abramoff convictions and investigations, very clearly arising out of the K Street project and the blurring of the lines between "lobbyist" and "RNC operative". Failures of national policy, as in the case of FEMA after Katrina, or the startling incompetence and lack of relevant experience amongst the people charged with carrying out Iraqi reconstruction, all flowing from loyalty to Bush and the Republican party being made the primary criteria for public service. The current Justice Department investigations, and the strong indications that hiring and firing of US attorneys was being predicated on loyalty to Bush, the RNC, and a willingness to carry out politically motivated investigations.

Even the central failure of the Bush administration, the Iraq war, seems to have been at least in part expedited by a break-down in policy apparatus and the ascendancy of political calculation as the only organizing principle within the White House.

And I doubt we have seen the full extent of what this single minded politicalization has done to the capacity of the federal government to function. Every time an agency or department is scrutinized, we discover that career professionals have been driven out or fired and been replaced with "loyal Bushies", who somehow never seem to have the least experience in the operations they are charged with carrying out. Every time an agency or department is scrutinized we discover that coherent, results oriented policy and implementation is being supplanted by message control and furthering Republican interests-- and by "interests" I do not mean "legislative agenda" but rather "consolidation of power".

Karl Rove very clearly decided that having gotten control of the federal apparatus, if could be used to make sure he would never have to relinquish that control.

That is a "culture of corruption", in a way that makes the usual corporate junkets and quid pro quo gifts seem quaintly old fashioned.

The thing is, for the folks that want to defend all this as if they were defending "conservative values" or "the Republican agenda" against the opportunistic attacks of "the left": you're shooting yourself in the foot. None of this has the slightest to do with values or legislation. It's power for its own sake, and only tangentially related to what we used to think of as "conservative". It's the recasting of the Republican party as an end in and of itself, whose only agenda is to stay in power.

I know I'll be told that thus it has ever been, that that's what political parties do, but that is cynical lie. This level of political coordination, this level of political primacy, is unprecedented.

Or, as John DiIulio, the guy formerly in charge of Bush's "faith based initiative" programs (and who quite after a year) said: "There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a policy apparatus. What you've got is everything -- and I mean everything -- being run by the political arm. It's the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis."

That may not be a "culture of corruption per se, but it sure is an almost guaranteed set-up for one.

You may find this unbelievable, but I don't relaly disagree with you completely. Now, I do disagree that cronyism and loyalty promotions are worse than actual bonafide corruption. I also think these occurences really are not all that uncommon. I think most administrations are pretty much the same in that regard, which is one reason our government just doesn't function.
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post #170 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Excuse me. Where am I "pretending that only GOP does this"? I don't pretend shit.

If you re-read my post I'm saying that I refuse to listen to your rants against Democrat sloganeering when you're party is the master of it.

I don't see why that matters. I'm not saying the Republicans aren't good at it. I think your problem here is that you don't believe I know when Republicans are doing what the Democrats did with the Culture of Corruption slogan. I recognize it. I also don't support the party unequivocally. It's true I'm a Republican, but that's mostly because of what the party [i]used to[i] stand for and I think can someday stand for again. It's also because I find the Democratic party far worse. I think that it's unreasonable for you to dimiss my taking issue with the aforementioned slogan just because the party I'm a member of is good at putting them out there as well.
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