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Apple's Leopard still accompanied by lengthy bug list

post #1 of 45
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A list of bugs accompanying the latest pre-release build of Apple Inc.'s Leopard operating system appears to have swelled somewhat since the Cupertino-based company last seeded the software to developers in early March.

According to reports already plastered on Apple-related web sites, Mac OS X Leopard (Client) Build 9A410, which was released to thousands of Mac OS X developers this week, still carries with it a laundry list of nearly three dozen known issues.

Of those issues, the most critical appear to affect the system's installation process, Apple's QuickTime digital media software, and graphics corruption with some graphics hardware, the reports state.

The latest Leopard builds also appear to be plagued by printing bugs and glitches in updated versions of the Mac maker's iChat video conference software and PhotoBooth applications.

At the same time, it's reported that a list of approximately 20 "Miscellaneous" bugs spans across a broad range system components, including iCal, iTunes, Safari, Mail and FileVault.

The 5.3-gigabyte Leopard build release this week, unlike the seeds that preceded it, is said to contain only a handful of notable changes, most pertaining to updates to the software's various underlying frameworks.

One application in particular that continues to receive refinements is the Terminal application, according to those reports posted on the Web. However, those changes include only subtle modifications to the software's window settings.

Apple last seeded a pre-release version of Leopard to developers in early March, when it released Mac OS X Leopard (Client) Build 9A377a.

Despite the outstanding issues with Leopard, the growing consensus amongst insiders and industry analysts is that Apple anticipates a release of the software around the time its World Wide Developers Conference rolls around in mid-June.

For its part, Apple has maintained that it will not delay the release of the next-generation OS, but at the same time has yet to reveal or broadly test a number of "top secret" features said to be lingering in builds of the software held down closely at its Cupertino-based headquarters.
post #2 of 45
Quote:
a laundry list of nearly three dozen known issues.

If this is what you're considering a large list then you've never been on the inside managing OS X.

Debian Etch had over 500 outstanding issues 2 months prior to it being stamped April 08, 2007.

Linux Kernel sees hundreds of fixes within a few months.
post #3 of 45
"Plagued"? Please! It's software under development. Stating that it's "plagued" by bugs is just dumb. Dial back the drama a notch or two.
post #4 of 45
IF Apple are keeping a lot of features under wraps as they claimed last year when Steve Jobs pre-announced some features of Leopard it would make sense that there are major problems with items like upgrades and installation.

Remember how long Apple were running OSX on Intel chips BEFORE they lanuched the Intel range of Mac!?!

I'd be willing to bet that Leopard is on schedule and I'm not a gambling man :-)
post #5 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

If this is what you're considering a large list then you've never been on the inside managing OS X.

Debian Etch had over 500 outstanding issues 2 months prior to it being stamped April 08, 2007.

Linux Kernel sees hundreds of fixes within a few months.

I think the "three dozen" estimation concerns serious bugs, some of which critical. This report, like the previous ones from AI, is not too encouraging.
post #6 of 45
Fortunately, and unfortunately Apple will meet the deadline. Having been an Apple user since 1984, and an early adopter (that I have since foregone because of experience) I see Apple releasing Leopard with a slew of updates to follow. Not to say that updates would not be necessary it Apple had all the in the world to develop Leopard, as there is no way around them, but I will not be jumping on the Leopard wagon when Leopard is first released. Believe me, I want to, but I know better.

Apple really has no choice but to release Leopard or Apple's stock will take a hit. That's what happens when you are a publicly traded company.
post #7 of 45
How about we judge Leopard against its actual release condition, not the presumed condition the software will be in when its released, and not bugs listed when the software is still under development.
post #8 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

I think the "three dozen" estimation concerns serious bugs, some of which critical. This report, like the previous ones from AI, is not too encouraging.

Serious bugs does not mean that they are very hard to fix. Also the release may consist of code that could be 1-2 months old, so some of those bugs could be fixed by now.

I'd consider 3 dozen bugs a very low number in a piece of software this complex. Very impressive.
post #9 of 45
It's doesn't mean it's easy to fix either. Unless you're working on the code, you don't know either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by henrikmk View Post

Serious bugs does not mean that they are very hard to fix. Also the release may consist of code that could be 1-2 months old, so some of those bugs could be fixed by now.

I'd consider 3 dozen bugs a very low number in a piece of software this complex. Very impressive.

It's only impressive or unimpressive if they are aheard or behind their projected date for bug fixes.
post #10 of 45
doesnt sound good...
"i find that if you keep talkin', your mouth comes up with stuff..." Karl Pilkington
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"i find that if you keep talkin', your mouth comes up with stuff..." Karl Pilkington
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post #11 of 45
Nearly three dozen bugs? LOL. A product of this complexity would be dealing with bug lists on the order of thousands, a percentage of which are deemed to have high enough priority or severity to block shipping. It's not uncommon for a single developer to have hundreds of bugs on their plate. And how many developers are working on OS X?

At some point their developers will stop new feature development and concentrate all efforts on bringing the bug count down, which would likely be in the thousands. If they're only left dealing with 3 dozen high-priority bugs then they're laughing. In reality, I'm sure they're dealing with many more bugs, which is normal and expected.
post #12 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronAdams View Post

"Plagued"? Please! It's software under development. Stating that it's "plagued" by bugs is just dumb. Dial back the drama a notch or two.

I agree. It's stupid and childish, to say nothing of ignorant of how these types of technologies get built.

Don't be salty at Apple like ThinkSecret is nowadays since Apple sued them and outed their founder. Just be the AppleInsider we know and love.
post #13 of 45
I mentioned this 2 or 3 months back but I'll say it again because it was met with disagreement:

Apple is only releasing specific elements of these OS X developer builds and so you can expect the builds to be incomplete and lacking. This should be NOW more obvious than ever with only 4 new things added in over a months time as listed below:

Terminal
- Profiles have been renamed as "Window Settings" and workspaces have been renamed as "Window Groups"
- Window Settings can be configured through the "Window Settings" tab of the Terminal preferences or by invoking the Inspector

Miscellaneous
- If you have valid .Mac credentials in the .Mac Preference Pane iDisk syncing will now be enabled by default unless you have explicitly disabled it
- PCSC framework has been updated. This will continue to work with Tiger reader drivers, although tokends written for Tiger should be retested under Leopard.

Think about it. 40 days to do all of that!!!

And there are still the same unresolved issues and bugs. These bugs probably won't be addressed externally because when they substitue in, or in some cases add in, the new components the bugs will no longer be an issue because they are of no consequence.
post #14 of 45
Ok, I have to chime in on this one...

A list of some 36 bugs and issues is NOTHING for an entire operating system, regardless of their severity. A list that size might be considered large for a single application, but not an OS. I'd say this is not as dramatic as the article is making it seem.

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #15 of 45
Well, they've got two months and change still. \

I'd be okay with Leopard shipping with minor bugs, let's face it, all OSes do (most to be fixed shortly after launch by Software Update- god I love that thing), but I'd hope that Apple would not force a 10.5 ship if there are still major and obvious issues to be resolved. Because if they do, the comparisons to Windows will be plain:

"Hey, I thought you guys were supposed to have your acts together better than Microsoft! Bwahahaha!"... yeah, we can all see the fanboi comments now, can't we?

But while those don't matter, mainstream perception definitely DOES. If Leopard still has very serious, very-easy-to-come-across issues come June, it needs NOT to ship. Apple's reputation is part of what's fueling the resurgence of the Mac. If Apple compromises that to hit a ship date.... ugh.

I do hope they hit their Spring ship date, but it's secondary to quality. Releasing a 'beta OS' makes Apple no better than Microsoft. Here's hoping that Apple's dev team is able to have its cake (ship date) and eat it too (quality).

.
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Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
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Thanks for listening to your...
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post #16 of 45
I think the issue now is how long before the release will Apple need to disclose the top secret features to beta testers in order to resolve outstanding issues. Does the missing secret features cause some of the problems? Will add them add to known issues?

Finally, is there an event in the near future where Steve J can talk about the neat secret features and then send out test packs to the testers? Time is getting short and the full OS needs some heavy testing very soon.
Ken
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Ken
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post #17 of 45
The idea that 9A410 only has "nearly three dozen known issues" and only changed by a few labels in Terminal and some miscellaneous items from 9A377a is quite absurd. The seed notes are not a summary of every single bug or every single change in the OS. They are a very brief summary of some of the "gotchas" that developers should be aware of between releases and changes that might have otherwise gone unnoticed. Developers will look at header files, release notes, radar reports, and a multitude of other areas for changes that apply to them. Entire operating systems are not easy to develop. The notion that the number of issues mentioned in a seed note as an indicator of Leopard's fit for release makes about as much sense as me counting the number of pencils on my desk to determine the probability of rain today.
post #18 of 45
I agree, keep all easily panicked people away from making dubious posts for the next several months.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #19 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

But while those don't matter, mainstream perception definitely DOES. If Leopard still has very serious, very-easy-to-come-across issues come June, it needs NOT to ship. Apple's reputation is part of what's fueling the resurgence of the Mac. If Apple compromises that to hit a ship date.... ugh.

Apple did this once and you can expect it to do it again if schedule and market parameters dictate so.
post #20 of 45
Well I think I'll stop this trend of pointing out AppleInsider's faults and crap articles by looking at the bright side:

Little changes may mean it's almost as close as it's going to get before we see the top secret features.

-=|Mgkwho
post #21 of 45
I'm starting to think the "top secret" feature(s) is more likely an included app of some kind than a part of the actual OS -- and probably something related to iPhone, Apple TV or iLife.
post #22 of 45
I've believed for a long time that the Top Secret Features are bull and just another type of marketing type from Apple. It'll probably just be a new version of iLife or something.
Hey when are the new iSight cameras coming out if at all? THeres lots of users out there with older machines / displays that cant do video iChat & wouldnt this be a cool feature to add to your Apple TV?
post #23 of 45
I'm sure the secret features have something to do with the number of bugs. Apple's reputation is too clean to have a messup that big.

I'm still hoping for my multitouch-based Leopard. Multitouch MBP for the win
post #24 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddaniel View Post

I'm sure the secret features have something to do with the number of bugs. Apple's reputation is too clean to have a messup that big.

Yeah, 36 bugs for a OS that has almost 100 million lines of code is WAY too much. You're totally right. Seriously. Too much.

-=|Mgkwho
post #25 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkwho View Post

Yeah, 36 bugs for a OS that has almost 100 million lines of code is WAY too much. You're totally right. Seriously. Too much.

It's plagued, I tell ya! PLAGUED!
post #26 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkwho View Post

Yeah, 36 bugs for a OS that has almost 100 million lines of code is WAY too much. You're totally right. Seriously. Too much.

-=|Mgkwho

Did I say that? I just stated that I wouldn't be surprised if the "secret features" in leopard were accounting for some of the "serious bugs" people keep talking about.
post #27 of 45
Um, yes, you did. See here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddaniel View Post

I'm sure the secret features have something to do with the number of bugs. Apple's reputation is too clean to have a messup that big.

You're attributing, in plain English, the number of bugs to a messup that is "too" big.

-=|Mgkwho
post #28 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkwho View Post

Yeah, 36 bugs for a OS that has almost 100 million lines of code is WAY too much. You're totally right. Seriously. Too much.

-=|Mgkwho

Because, the database program I use that is 'stable' for our law firm has a fraction the code and twice the bugs... I guess it must be pre-alpha. AND WE PAY FOR IT!

Mommy, I want my money back!
post #29 of 45
Ok, first, if Leopard is as revolutionary as Apple wants us to think, then it's probably a really strange build that they're seeding to the developers. A mixed build that has a lot of Tiger still in it. I can imagine a couple of bugs are sprouting from that procedure too.

But ok. Leopard will come as 10.5. And a month or two later there will be the first 10.5.1 update. The 10.5 will have bugs, yes.. but doesn't every major release contain a handful of bugs? 30 more or less outstanding bugs doesn't sound bad. It sounds like they're on track.
post #30 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenaustus View Post

I think the issue now is how long before the release will Apple need to disclose the top secret features to beta testers in order to resolve outstanding issues.


My suspicions are that Apple has a smaller community of premium developers extracted from the ADC group that Apple deliberately approached with a heavy NDA to be beta testers for the secret features. Apple will work to keep the surprise to a maximum. Most likely on the day of product announcement.
post #31 of 45
Seeing as how XP SHIPPED with 2500 and Vista with 500, I'm not too concered with 36.

-Clive
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post #32 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

Seeing as how XP SHIPPED with 2500 and Vista with 500, I'm not too concered with 36.

-Clive

You should though if there is just one critical bug that could ruin your data. Firewire comes into mind. \
post #33 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

You should though if there is just one critical bug that could ruin your data. Firewire comes into mind. \

Hey, I'm not saying I want my OS to ship with bugs just so it can get out on time. We're still 2 months out and a lot will change between now and then. 36 is puny for a complete OS overhaul.

My main point is that I was making a comparison:

Unreleased OS X Leopard has 7.2% of the number of bugs Vista does and 1.44% of the number of bugs that XP did when it shipped.

-Clive
My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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post #34 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronAdams View Post

How about we judge Leopard against its actual release condition, not the presumed condition the software will be in when its released, and not bugs listed when the software is still under development.

Here Here!
"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest."
"Those who would give up essential liberties to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither." -Ben Franklin
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"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest."
"Those who would give up essential liberties to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither." -Ben Franklin
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post #35 of 45
And the "I doubt it" folks win! Apple just announced Leopard won't be released until October.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/04/...yed.until.oct/
post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

If this is what you're considering a large list then you've never been on the inside managing OS X.

Debian Etch had over 500 outstanding issues 2 months prior to it being stamped April 08, 2007.

Linux Kernel sees hundreds of fixes within a few months.

These are "major" issues. Who knows how many hundreds of lessor, but still important, bugs are known, and just how many are not yet known? Or, how many will be created in the process of fixing these?
post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyRobUK View Post

IF Apple are keeping a lot of features under wraps as they claimed last year when Steve Jobs pre-announced some features of Leopard it would make sense that there are major problems with items like upgrades and installation.

Remember how long Apple were running OSX on Intel chips BEFORE they lanuched the Intel range of Mac!?!

I'd be willing to bet that Leopard is on schedule and I'm not a gambling man :-)

Looks like you lost. Stay out of the casino.
post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I agree, keep all easily panicked people away from making dubious posts for the next several months.

How 'bout now?
post #39 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenstee View Post

And the "I doubt it" folks win! Apple just announced Leopard won't be released until October.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/04/...yed.until.oct/

Win, of course. \ With this series of reports showing a slow progress (never occured so little time before the other scheduled release dates of OS X), it would be difficult to be otherwise.
post #40 of 45
[Too slow.]
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