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Is Our Technology Killing Us?

post #1 of 39
Thread Starter 
This article on cell phones possibly causing the recent and widespread bee colony problems finally caused me to post this thread, a topic which was been gestating in my mind for some time.

http://news.independent.co.uk/enviro...cle2449968.ece

There has already been a link between power lines and cancer, and some link to cell phone usage and tumors. I've always wondered about what having this laptop sitting...well, on my lap might do for me...or to me. It's got a magnetic field and uses wireless transmission for internet. There is a li-ion battery sitting directly overtop my balls right now. How good can that be?

Wireless internet is my big fear. Here is Wiki on the possible effects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireles...ces_and_health

Not exactly conclusive at all. I know that we simply don't know the effects yet. That said, think about the EMF's you're exposed to on a daily basis. Could these patterns disrupt the body's own electrical signals and/or brainwaves? Could this result in damage to the immune system and processes for cellular repair, etc? Could they affect things like concentration, memory, sleep, etc?

I'm open to any research that anyone is aware of. Your thoughts...
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post #2 of 39
The bee thing has been debunked on slashdot (why no bee problems in Europe if it is caused by cell phones?).

If you walk around your house with an EMF meter, most likely the highest value will be coming from your fridge and freezer (higher than you get from being directly under high tension lines, in my case). Fridges and Freezers have been in common usage for 60 years, if it was a major source of illness then we would know it by now.
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post #3 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The bee thing has been debunked on slashdot (why no bee problems in Europe if it is caused by cell phones?).

If you walk around your house with an EMF meter, most likely the highest value will be coming from your fridge and freezer (higher than you get from being directly under high tension lines, in my case). Fridges and Freezers have been in common usage for 60 years, if it was a major source of illness then we would know it by now.

It's apparently spread to other countries if you read the article. Also, I have to diagree about the fridge. They don't sit on your lap. You're ususally a distance away from them.
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post #4 of 39
How exactly would a phenomena associated with CELL PHONES spread?

Is there a rouge cell phone virus that makes them dangerous to bees?

Or perhaps there's a bee virus that is dangerous to bees?

Hmm... Perhaps if we all used our thinking caps before we posted we wouldn't look like SDW...
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post #5 of 39
before you posted hardeharhar, i was going to leave a somewhat tongue in cheek comment about how hardeeharhar would poo-poo the report because if there wasn't 110% factual proof of radiation causing bees to drop stone dead in their paths, it clearly would only be the mumblings of complete idiots. Obviously I thought better of it at the time, and now only post in retrospect of you having posted first.

After our last little spat about whether Fluorinated water was good or bad for you, I was somewhat heartened to read a few weeks ago in NS about how trace elements of 'nasties' consumed over a lifetime cause major damage to biological systems, even when the dose of the nasties are below normally assumed safe levels. I thought of you, but I had too much class to bring it up then.

Now, you didn't read the article SDW posted did you? I find it rather perverse to be on SDW's side of an argument, but there is an interesting thing to be discussed here, and for once, SDW has used his thinking cap, and you definately have not.
post #6 of 39
http://environment.newscientist.com/...bees-gone.html

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...-colonies.html

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...umble-bee.html

As to the discussion of whether EMF causes problems. Its a no brainer. EMF has the potential to cause problems - thats entirely obvious to anyone who understands the fundamentals of physics and the physical universe. God only knows why its such a controversial subject. The question should be - does the exposure to EMF cause an acceptable or unacceptable risk we are prepared to accept for the benefits it produces.
post #7 of 39
Sorry folks. Cell phones and Power Lines DO NOT cause cancer. No link has ever been proven. No study that shows a correlation has ever been reproduced. If you can't reproduced it then then it's not proven to be true. [typical internet whining]you didn't link to any proof[/typical internet whining]

Here's a link. After that find your own

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/600_phone.html
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety/

Google search for powerlines. There's 100s of good pages that debunk this myth.

But but but .... BUT NOTHING!

The cell phone thing was started by a lawyer whose wife got a tumor on the same side that she constantly yapped on her phone. She probably got and acoustic neuorma so there's a 50/50 chance it would be on the same side as her constant cell phone yapping.
post #8 of 39
Marc... I read TFA.

The cell phone placed by hive as evidence is laughable and that is the only evidence cited in the article... the rest is speculative nonsense...

Hypotheses generated from well established facts are perfectly acceptable... but you and your ilk tend to fly off the cuff well before there is any reason to do so and have no means or desire to actually investigate the causes once the speculation has been established...

All evidence of the commercial bee's collapse suggests a transmittable agent and not EMFs which are not transmittable...

Generalized EMF of the intensity needed to cause actual and lasting biological damage don't readily exist on earth -- nuclear blasts, lasers being the only notable exceptions.
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post #9 of 39
Let's see what some others have theorized...

Scientists ask: Where are all the bees?

"So far, the scientists know only two things for sure, said Dennis vanEnglesdorp, Pennsylvania's state apiarist: The main symptom has been the mass abandonment of hives. And the variety of fungi, viruses and mites found in collapsing hives suggests a widespread failure of the bees' immune systems.

"It's a lot like AIDS," Hackenberg said.

The rest, at this point, is conjecture, according to the study group's preliminary report.

Bees are increasingly trucked long distances to take advantage of crops, such as almonds, that pay high pollination fees. This may strain their ability to recover from infections, the report says, and expose them to a wider range of diseases and toxic chemicals.

"They forage over a large area so they pick up a lot of junk," Hayes said. "I'm surprised there's a honey bee alive."

The "prime suspect" for the collapse, according to Hackenberg, is an increasingly popular class of pesticides called neonicotinoids that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has identified as highly toxic to honeybees.

Another possible culprit, vanEnglesdorp said, is a new strain of fungus that has appeared in many of the failing hives. But both he and Hayes warned it is far too early to settle on a single cause of the outbreak.

"The awkward and frustrating thing at this point is that we're all grasping at straws," Hayes said."

Pesticides, migrating of bees or even genetically modified crops. But cell phones?
post #10 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

Sorry folks. Cell phones and Power Lines DO NOT cause cancer. No link has ever been proven. No study that shows a correlation has ever been reproduced. If you can't reproduced it then then it's not proven to be true. [typical internet whining]you didn't link to any proof[/typical internet whining]

Here's a link. After that find your own

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/600_phone.html
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety/

Google search for powerlines. There's 100s of good pages that debunk this myth.

But but but .... BUT NOTHING!

The cell phone thing was started by a lawyer whose wife got a tumor on the same side that she constantly yapped on her phone. She probably got and acoustic neuorma so there's a 50/50 chance it would be on the same side as her constant cell phone yapping.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7460

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/933678.stm

There are other links as well (regarding power lines). I'm not saying it's proven, but there is some evidence to suggest it. I don't know about cell phones...the evidence is inconclusive, but it does seem to be building. Wholly dimissing it is rather stupid.
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post #11 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Let's see what some others have theorized...

Scientists ask: Where are all the bees?

"So far, the scientists know only two things for sure, said Dennis vanEnglesdorp, Pennsylvania's state apiarist: The main symptom has been the mass abandonment of hives. And the variety of fungi, viruses and mites found in collapsing hives suggests a widespread failure of the bees' immune systems.

"It's a lot like AIDS," Hackenberg said.

The rest, at this point, is conjecture, according to the study group's preliminary report.

Bees are increasingly trucked long distances to take advantage of crops, such as almonds, that pay high pollination fees. This may strain their ability to recover from infections, the report says, and expose them to a wider range of diseases and toxic chemicals.

"They forage over a large area so they pick up a lot of junk," Hayes said. "I'm surprised there's a honey bee alive."

The "prime suspect" for the collapse, according to Hackenberg, is an increasingly popular class of pesticides called neonicotinoids that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has identified as highly toxic to honeybees.

Another possible culprit, vanEnglesdorp said, is a new strain of fungus that has appeared in many of the failing hives. But both he and Hayes warned it is far too early to settle on a single cause of the outbreak.

"The awkward and frustrating thing at this point is that we're all grasping at straws," Hayes said."

Pesticides, migrating of bees or even genetically modified crops. But cell phones?

It's not that I disagree, but the topic is really not about just this one issue. I just linked to it to demonstrate what motivated me to post the thread about the possible risks of technology.
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post #12 of 39
I think the Russians did it...



Abandoned russian biochemical lab



Seriously, we have to find out what is going on because this is becoming global. Theoretically, if the bee population is wiped out. We have about four years to live.

Albert Einstein - "If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would only have four years left to live."
post #13 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I think the Russians did it...



Abandoned russian biochemical lab



Seriously, we have to find out what is going on because this is becoming global. Theoretically, if the bee population is wiped out. We have about four years to live.

Albert Einstein - "If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would only have four years left to live."

But that would only get us to 2011, NOT 2012 when we all KNOW the world (as we know it) will cease to exist!

But seriously, there is great irony is SDW's disbelief in the human caused environmental effects of climate change emissions, while seeming to believe the technological effects caused by low energy density EMF human emissions! While. in the first case there seems to be an ever increasing body of evidence to at least partly explain casualty, the second effect is, at this point, purely conjectural!
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post #14 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

But that would only get us to 2011, NOT 2012 when we all KNOW the world (as we know it) will cease to exist!

But seriously, there is great irony is SDW's disbelief in the human caused environmental effects of climate change emissions, while seeming to believe the technological effects caused by low energy density EMF human emissions! While. in the first case there seems to be an ever increasing body of evidence to at least partly explain casualty, the second effect is, at this point, purely conjectural!

Oh stop. I mean really, I was just waiting for someone to try that one. I don't believe anything. I'm asking a question. I'm curious and possibly concerned. Jesus.
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post #15 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I think the Russians did it...




Seriously, we have to find out what is going on because this is becoming global. Theoretically, if the bee population is wiped out. We have about four years to live.

Albert Einstein - "If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would only have four years left to live."

Not really...

Crops are fertilized in laboratories now... Montsanto would make a killing if all the bees died but the world's food supply wouldn't collapse...
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post #16 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Not really...

Crops are fertilized in laboratories now... Montsanto would make a killing if all the bees died but the world's food supply wouldn't collapse...

post #17 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

"If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would only have four years left to live."

He missed the mark when he issued this quote - other insects can pollinate the same plants as honeybees do, and the niche gets quickly filled by them if bees go away.
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post #18 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

He missed the mark when he issued this quote - other insects can pollinate the same plants as honeybees do, and the niche gets quickly filled by them if bees go away.

Can anyone find a factual-historical link to this quote? I can't find it, but blogs, bee keepers, and the MSM keep repeating it!
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post #19 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I think the Russians did it...

Abandoned russian biochemical lab


This is OT, but that site reminded me of an article in National Geographic back in the 1990's about all the abandoned/poorly guarded Soviet biochemical labs in Russia as well as former USSR/Bloc countries. The thing I remember most from the article was a picture of vials of live weaponized anthrax sitting on a shelf in a coffee can in an unguarded building.

I know all that was several years ago, but people sit around worrying about Iran building their own nukes, when everything from tailored bio to backpacks nukes were practically free for the taking during the Soviet meltdown. Face it, if some group of terrorists really wanted WMD, they already have them, folks! \

And those guys were really bright going into an abandoned hot lab with only medical masks on!

(yeah, all the bad stuff was most likely gone, but you wouldn't catch me doing it!)

IRT Topic,
I'm not convinced on this cell phones/bees thing; what, are people standing around by bee hives using their phones? I know from personal experience that hard EM (high power microwave/Radar transmitters, X and Gamma rays, etc.) are certainly hazardous to your health, but the jury appears to be out on 'soft' EM. It's possible that it could effect living tissues, but when the impact of cell transmissions on brain tissue from only inches away is in debate, I don't see how it could be effecting bees on a wide scale basis.

(law of inverse squares, double the distance from an EM source, you quarter the strength of the signal/dose rate)
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #20 of 39
Bee Keepers are Soylent Green!!!
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post #21 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7460

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/933678.stm

There are other links as well (regarding power lines). I'm not saying it's proven, but there is some evidence to suggest it. I don't know about cell phones...the evidence is inconclusive, but it does seem to be building. Wholly dimissing it is rather stupid.

No no no no no no NO NO! This is a "cased cloese" situation. Keeping these rumors alive is the stupid thing to do.
post #22 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

No no no no no no NO NO! This is a "cased cloese" situation. Keeping these rumors alive is the stupid thing to do.

"rumors?" I'd say it's a lot more than that.
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post #23 of 39
post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"rumors?" I'd say it's a lot more than that.

Yes, Lots more.

Powerlines and Cancer - Medical Colleg of Wisconsin Check the "What's New" link.

Power Lines and Cancer: Nothing to Fear - John W. Farley, Ph.D.

Fear of frying: power lines and cancer - BMJ British Medical Association

"Those in the media who believe that high voltage power lines and pylons cause cancer in children are like the plucky, armless black knight in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail: they just won't give up."
post #25 of 39
Technology is killing us in other ways. Witness a high school friend i found on digg of all places:

http://www.digg.com/videos/comedy/Th...ing_Break_EVER

LAME
post #26 of 39
I am with SDW2001 and MarcUK on this.


It is "ALWAYS" good to ask questions and not rule anything out.

My father was a master electrician in the old days before working for Texas Instruments and getting into real estate. My father has always known power lines cause cancer dependending on how close one is and how long one is exposed to the EMF.

In Dallas off I-75 my father told me to take a look at the power lines going into the Texas Instruments building. It looks like enough electricity to power a medium sized city.

One of my best friends father has been diagnosed with bone cancer which cannot be cured. For about 10 years he lived in a home situated just under massive power lines.

connection? I have no proof but let me tell you I will not live or work near them.

With the bees I think we need to evaluate everything we can until we find out what has happened.

Respectfully

Fellowship
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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post #27 of 39
No, we are killing us. Technology is no excuse for being irresponsible.
post #28 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Yes, Lots more.

Powerlines and Cancer - Medical Colleg of Wisconsin Check the "What's New" link.

Power Lines and Cancer: Nothing to Fear - John W. Farley, Ph.D.

Fear of frying: power lines and cancer - BMJ British Medical Association

"Those in the media who believe that high voltage power lines and pylons cause cancer in children are like the plucky, armless black knight in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail: they just won't give up."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ert/article.do
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post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

IMy father was a master electrician in the old days before working for Texas Instruments and getting into real estate. My father has always known power lines cause cancer dependending on how close one is and how long one is exposed to the EMF.

In Dallas off I-75 my father told me to take a look at the power lines going into the Texas Instruments building. It looks like enough electricity to power a medium sized city.

One of my best friends father has been diagnosed with bone cancer which cannot be cured. For about 10 years he lived in a home situated just under massive power lines.

connection? I have no proof but let me tell you I will not live or work near them.

My father was a watermellon grower - he died of a heart attack right after eating watermellon. We always knew that watermellon caused heart attacks, and this sinches it.
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post #30 of 39
post #31 of 39
Thread Starter 
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post #32 of 39
From the World Health Organization:

Quote:
Mobile phones and their base stations
Mobile phones allow people to be within reach at all times. These low-power radiowave devices transmit and receive signals from a network of fixed low power base stations. Each base station provides coverage to a given area. Depending on the number of calls being handled, base stations may be from only a few hundred metres apart in major cities to several kilometres apart in rural areas.

Mobile phone base stations are usually mounted on the tops of buildings or on towers at heights of between 15 and 50 metres. The levels of transmissions from any particular base station are variable and depend on the number of calls and the callers' distance from the base station. Antennas emit a very narrow beam of radio waves which spreads out almost parallel to the ground. Therefore, radio frequency fields at ground level and in regions normally accessible to the public are many times below hazard levels. Guidelines would only be exceeded if a person were to approach to within a metre or two directly in front of the antennas. Until mobile phones became widely used, members of the public were mainly exposed to radio frequency emissions from radio and TV stations. Even today, the phone towers themselves add little to our total exposure, as signal strengths in places of public access are normally similar to or lower than those from distant radio and TV stations.

However, the user of a mobile phone is exposed to radio frequency fields much higher than those found in the general environment. Mobile phones are operated very close to the head. Therefore, rather than looking at the heating effect across the whole body, the distribution of absorbed energy in the head of the user must be determined. From sophisticated computer modeling and measurements using models of heads, it appears that the energy absorbed from a mobile phone is not in excess of current guidelines.

Concerns about other so-called non-thermal effects arising from exposure to mobile phone frequencies have also been raised. These include suggestions of subtle effects on cells that could have an effect on cancer development. Effects on electrically excitable tissues that may influence the function of the brain and nervous tissue have also been hypothesized. However, the overall evidence available to date does not suggest that the use of mobile phones has any detrimental effect on human health.

Quote:
What is the difference between non-ionizing electromagnetic fields and ionizing radiation?
Wavelength and frequency determine another important characteristic of electromagnetic fields: Electromagnetic waves are carried by particles called quanta. Quanta of higher frequency (shorter wavelength) waves carry more energy than lower frequency (longer wavelength) fields. Some electromagnetic waves carry so much energy per quantum that they have the ability to break bonds between molecules. In the electromagnetic spectrum, gamma rays given off by radioactive materials, cosmic rays and X-rays carry this property and are called 'ionizing radiation'. Fields whose quanta are insufficient to break molecular bonds are called 'non-ionizing radiation'. Man-made sources of electromagnetic fields that form a major part of industrialized life - electricity, microwaves and radio frequency fields are found at the relatively long wavelength and low frequency end of the electromagnetic spectrum and their quanta are unable to break chemical bonds.

Is there room for more research? Yes, but as things stand with today's knowledge, there isn't much to fear from consumer electronics. Considering the strength of some of the EM fields I was regularly exposed to in the military, a cell phone is the last thing I'd worry about hurting me...unless I was a salesman or such and used one 24/7.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #33 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

"..."

One billion times stronger than natural EM fields? Somebody didn't do their homework...
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #34 of 39
Its a double edge sword. Technology is killing us and saving us at the same time. The question is will it lean one way soon?

Dave
post #35 of 39
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-sci-b...iewed-homepage

More evidence that points to a fungus that affects hives. This, a bee virus called iflaviruses, and and certain parasites look to be the major cause for the bee-pedemic.
post #36 of 39
(Off the top of my head) there is an article about this in this weeks NS (paper version). It is speculated that it might also have something to do with a type of GM crop that was modified to expresses a certain protein that makes the crop resistant to attack, but that this protein is highly pathogenic to bees,

im sure it will be up online soon to link to.
post #37 of 39
Sammi Jo spotted in the wild (joking!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1879
post #38 of 39

More MSM hyperbole!

For example, from the French CIRC Interphone effort (2007) see;

Mobile phone use and risk of glioma in 5 North European countries

Quote:
Public concern has been expressed about the possible adverse health effects of mobile telephones, mainly related to intracranial tumors. We conducted a population-based case-control study to investigate the relationship between mobile phone use and risk of glioma among 1,522 glioma patients and 3,301 controls. We found no evidence of increased risk of glioma related to regular mobile phone use (odds ratio, OR = 0.78, 95% confidence interval, CI: 0.68, 0.91). No significant association was found across categories with duration of use, years since first use, cumulative number of calls or cumulative hours of use. When the linear trend was examined, the OR for cumulative hours of mobile phone use was 1.006 (1.002, 1.010) per 100 hr, but no such relationship was found for the years of use or the number of calls. We found no increased risks when analogue and digital phones were analyzed separately. For more than 10 years of mobile phone use reported on the side of the head where the tumor was located, an increased OR of borderline statistical significance (OR = 1.39, 95% CI 1.01, 1.92, p trend 0.04) was found, whereas similar use on the opposite side of the head resulted in an OR of 0.98 (95% CI 0.71, 1.37). Although our results overall do not indicate an increased risk of glioma in relation to mobile phone use, the possible risk in the most heavily exposed part of the brain with long-term use needs to be explored further before firm conclusions can be drawn.

See also;

Electromagnetic radiation hazard

Wireless electronic devices and health

Mobile phone radiation and health

I'd be much more concerned with this aspect of mobile phone usage;

Mobile phones and driving safety

And if you consider all other known health risks we face everyday (easily numbering in the thousands), the so called EMF health "risks" are pretty much, not worth the time of day, IMHO!
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post #39 of 39
400,000 plus people a year killed by smoking, and people are concerned over cell phones?

CDC Fact sheet on smoking deaths:

Quote:
Cigarette smoking is the single most preventable cause of premature death in the United States. Each year, more than 400,000 Americans die from cigarette smoking. In fact, one in every five deaths in the United States is smoking related. Every year, smoking kills more than 276,000 men and 142,000 women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

And if you consider all other known health risks we face everyday (easily numbering in the thousands), the so called EMF health "risks" are pretty much, not worth the time of day, IMHO!

I seem to remember a study I read in a magazine somewhere that said a microwave oven puts out something like 20 times the EM that a cell phone or WiFi puts out, can't find a link to support it right now though.
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The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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