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Will Apple ever make this machine? - Page 6

post #201 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

90% of the market disagrees. Linux has made no headway on the desktop. Mac does best but is 6% of the installed base.

US market share, right. Oh, except for those buying laptops, which is higher that 6%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Some folks really really hate microsoft. 90% of the world doesn't care.

Facts, figures or made up numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Apple offers a complete solution, wrapped nicely in an easy to use UI and pleasing hardware design at a premium price.

So. Irrelevant to the discussion of something Apple currently doesn't offer, like the xMac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

94% of the market doesn't care enough to pay the premium price.

Actually, if you compare price/feature the Mac Pro is less expensive than Dell, the iMac is comparably priced feature for feature, it is only the Mac mini which fits this statement and it may or may not sell very well, which is bizarre since in any other market the least expensive product is normally the highest seller. Truly bizarre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

OSX is also not the only game in town if you are sick of Windows. There is Solaris, Linux, and BSD. I hear there are pockets of AmigaOS and GEM still in Europe if you are so inclined.

So what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

The OS is below the notice for the vast majority of the market or Windows wouldn't STILL have 90% of the desktop market. The same hardware runs Linux (Ubuntu isn't all that bad as much as I bang on Linux), FreeBSD and sometimes even Slowaris (which isn't that bad either really).

So why oh why is Apple advertising? Nothing they can do will increase market share. Are these commercials for the shareholders.
Who was it that said,"Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves."?
You have got absolutely the most negative things to say about Apple. They "Windows wouldn't still have 90% of the desktop market", "OSX is also not the only game in town if you are sick of Windows. There is Solaris, Linux, and BSD. I hear there are pockets of AmigaOS and GEM still in Europe if you are so inclined."

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

And a $1000 PC made by Apple would not qualify for "best PC available at the price" since the comparable Dell would be $800. You can argue that OSX is better than Ubuntu (a bit yes) and Windows. The comeback for Windows is that larger amount of software and games (for home users).

See above posts about pricing and margins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Strawman.

My position has been that Apple is executing well now AND companies that have tried your suggested strategy in the Windows world have exitted the tower market.

Except you haven't shown why they exited. There could be other reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Also, Apple, as a corporation is no Dell or HP. The corporate culture is sufficiently different that adopting a Dell or HP strategy (volume over margin) is a very risky thing to do.

Talk about strawman - virtually no one has advocated adopting Dell's or HP's strategy.
And no, offering an xMac is in no way shape or form as risky as the iPod was or the iPhone is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

The xMac is no more or less niche than the iMac and compares far less well against any windows competition. Which as a solution the Mac platform is compared against. A $1000 Apple tower with the same hw specs as an $800 Dell tower is a loser. A $1400 conroe Apple tower with the same hw specs as a $1200 Dell tower is equally a loser. The only positive aspect of the iMac is that as an AIO it lives in a different weight class.
xMac is certainly going to be much better than an iMac but faces much much more competent competition.

All of the above quote presumes that Dell's margins for a mid to upper end consumer desktop is in the 16 - 18% range, which can be reasonably rejected. If they are higher then Apple could compete feature for feature in the same price range, JUST LIKE THEY DO WITH THE iMac and Mac Pro and XServe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

OSX is IMHO insufficient to change that equation because even though it is much better than XP, XP is "good enough" for most folks.

More negative waves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

So instead of making up strawmen that I don't say why don't you actually show why IBM, Sony and Toshiba left the tower market and who their high end brand (and not some whitebox maker) replacements are?

IBM left to concentrate on their IT, mainframe and chip business which are core to their existance.
Sony and Toshiba left because they were incompetent in marketing, manufacturing and distribution.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
post #202 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

The mid to upper end consumer machines are obviously not commodity market and this is where Dell tries to increase margins to make up for the low end.

No one here has suggested that Apple get into the commondity market.

Snoopy has suggested $500 xMacs in the past. Here $1000 xMacs. These are within that range. $1600-$2000 and I agree you've left the commodity range. $1100-$1400? Likely outside.

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We don't assert this, it is fact not ficiton.

The assertion is that this justification for an xMac. Its true that most machines are towers.

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NO, we have said that margins might, I stress might be, lower, but the distinct possibility exists that Apple may increase market share.

Then why would Apple wish to do this? Dilute their ASPs and profitability on the possibility that it might increase share. So what if they do increase share? They're losing money they could have made.

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Show me just one reference where any one advocating Apple offer an xMac has said anything close to this.

Go read the umpteen million other xMac threads and get back to me. I sure as heck aint reading them again.

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No, it is not clear to you.

An xMac with a single Conroe, blah, blah blah priced in the $1499 - $1799 market would not sell. If it had a Xeon, it would not sell even more. This is a redux of the infamous Cube.

A PowerMac sold for $1499-$1699 with a single G5 and even slightly crippled. A single Xeon Mac Pro would sell to the same market and it would be easier to just make it a BTO without futzing with crippling it.

A single Conroe xMac using an Core 2 Duo Extreme in the $1799 range would sell given it would be one of the cheaper Core 2 Duo Extremes on the market and priced under Dell's Precision 390 equivalent.

Either one would be price competitive vs Dell offerings in the same class. A Xeon is simply the easier of the two to implement.

Quote:
Dell averages between 16 - 18% margins, therefore their mid to upper end consumer offering HAVE TO BE HIGHER, MUCH HIGHER THAN THE LOW END $499 MACHINES. What they are, who knows, but considering the volume of the mid to upper end is LOWER, SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER, than the low end offerings the margins on the mid to upper end in order to skew the average up to 16 - 18% it would seem to be in the 22 - 28% area and maybe just maybe higher. This IS THE LUCRATIVE MARKET YOU KEEP REFERING TO.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that Dell is getting 14%-18% on their $1000 boxes. The region where Apple DOES compete with Dell is in that lucrative 25%+ region...with the Mac Pro.

At least you finally got that.

$1000 machine? No. $1400 machine? Maybe. $1600 machine? Probably. $2000 machine? Certainly...they do it now.

But hey...you guys that want a Conroe based xMac* all that much why WOULDN'T you buy a $1799 Mac Pro based on the Core 2 Extreme X6800 or Core 2 QX6700 for $1899?

Oh, because you are really saying you don't care about whether Apple offers a "prosumer" xMac of good value. Just that its cheap. Sorry, but that's not a good fit with the brand image.

Vinea

* Other than Dan Wells
post #203 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

US market share, right. Oh, except for those buying laptops, which is higher that 6%.

No, I was refering to the installed base numbers from website hits. Questionable absolute numbers but good enough to see relative share of the installed base on an OS level.

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Facts, figures or made up numbers.

Windows market share indicates that if these folks do hate Microsoft they don't hate it enough to stop using Windows...

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So. Irrelevant to the discussion of something Apple currently doesn't offer, like the xMac.

My comment was in response to Ben's strawman that folks only purchased because of hw design. They buy for the total experience. It's a nice experience but pricey.

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Actually, if you compare price/feature the Mac Pro is less expensive than Dell, the iMac is comparably priced feature for feature, it is only the Mac mini which fits this statement and it may or may not sell very well, which is bizarre since in any other market the least expensive product is normally the highest seller. Truly bizarre.

The point is that the Mac Pro is less expensive than the Dell because Apple is competing in an area where Dell doesn't move so much volume it can crush Apple on margins. Dell has areas where they enjoy nice margins and this is where Apple (wisely) chooses to compete with them.

iMac vs a Dell tower gets crushed on performance vs price.

Quote:
So what.

So read the post I was responding to.

Quote:
So why oh why is Apple advertising? Nothing they can do will increase market share. Are these commercials for the shareholders.

They can increase SALES and they have been. You're the one who keeps trying to show that they haven't gained share as well. Share have risen and fallen over time. Sales continue to grow these last qtrs.

The point however is that the OS really hasn't been a decisive factor and arguably MacOS had a far more decisive advantage over Windows 3.x than OSX has over Vista/XP.

I would say that branding has been the decisive factor in growth these last quarters. That's a combo of the iPod halo, the exclusive pricing and refinement in ease of use and design.

That and Job's RDF. He's sure cool for a geek.

Quote:
You have got absolutely the most negative things to say about Apple.

Only if you have poor reading comprehension...

Vinea
post #204 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post


Snoopy has suggested $500 xMacs in the past. Here $1000 xMacs.


Whoa! No! I suggested $500 for a bigger Mac Mini, built with desktop parts and enough room for cooling of a higher performance CPU and GPU. Range $500 to $1000. The low price version is lower performance, needless to say, for the economy minded.

Regarding a Mac mini tower, I've been saying $1000 to $2000, but for one post I said possibly as low as $900. We can guess, but only Apple knows what Apple will do. I just hope they make a mini tower sooner, rather than later.

If we'd stop calling everything an xMac, it would clear up such confusion.


Quote:

Then why would Apple wish to do this? Dilute their ASPs and profitability on the possibility that it might increase share. So what if they do increase share? They're losing money they could have made.


Apple doesn't need to dilute their profitability with a mini tower. The price can be set to have minimal impact on the iMac. Would it sell. Damn well it would. There would be no competition because no one else would makes a Mac mini tower. Apple has a clear market, just as it has on all it's computer products.

Would it take some sales from the iMac and Mac Pro? Yes it would, but if Apple set the margins about the same, it would make no difference, and customers would have a choice. Would market share increase? Of course, since potential switchers would have a broader choice, and Mac users would not need to buy on eBay to get something close to what they want.

The above has been repeated over and over. It's okay to not believe what we say, but at least acknowledge that we have addressed the issues.

You also mention that we insist on just a certain type of prosumer tower and don't accept a cut down Mac Pro with a single CPU. Not so. We prefer a desktop CPU solution because of manufacturing cost. Apple can make a lower priced consumer/prosumer mini tower by using desktop, not workstation, components. The idea is to offer a better value tower for those who do not need a workstation. I believe this argument is sound. You obviously don't.

post #205 of 362
Quote:
A PowerMac sold for $1499-$1699 with a single G5 and even slightly crippled. A single Xeon Mac Pro would sell to the same market and it would be easier to just make it a BTO without futzing with crippling it.

Remember that the G5 you are talking about only came into existance after the 1.6/1.8/Dual 2.0 GHz G5s were introduced, the solo 1.8 GHz G5 was discontinued, and then the solo 1.8 GHz was reintroduced to replace the 1.6 GHz G5. It had 256 MB of RAM, an 80 GB Hard Drive, a NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra with 64MB DDR SDRAM, and a 600 MHz FSB.

This machine was not offered at the $1499 price tag until over a year after the G5s were released and the 3rd 'revision' was released. It hasn't been a year for the Mac Pros and it's hard to argue that the addition of the Eight Core Mac Pros is a major update to the line. Regardless, let's look at what the equivilent machine would be today.

The solo processor G5 was $500 cheaper than it's dual processor counterpart. So assuming a $501 price drop off of the 'low end' Dual Processor 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Xeon Mac Pro ($800 price drop from the standard Dual Processor 2.66 Ghz Dual-Core Xeon Mac Pro), we get this:

One 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon 5130
1 GB RAM (512 MB x2)
250 GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256 MB
One 16x SuperDrive
No Built in Wireless (Airport/Bluetooth)
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse (Wired)
Mac OS X 10.4.9
No Monitor
$1699

That's the same exact machine as the current $2200 Dual Processor 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Xeon system with only one 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Xeon Processor. I don't think dropping one processor from the machine will make it $501 cheaper but we'll keep it like this for the sake of discussion.

I'm guessing that the people who want a 'headless mid-range tower' would call this overpriced and would say that they'd immediately have to upgrade the RAM, add Airport, Bluetooth, or both, and upgrade the graphics card which would bring the cost of the system up as well.

Out of all of the possibilities I've heard for a 'mid range tower', this is the one that is most likely historically. Apple has in the past offered low end Power Mac towers in this price range and it wouldn't shock me to see them add this type of tower sometime in the future.

What's crazy is that this tower would offer people everything they want in their 'headless mid-range tower' because it would have the same expandability as the top of the line Mac Pros and the same type of processor. But I also have little doubt that they'd take one look at the $1699 price and say that Apple has "once again failed them" because they don't want to pay that much for a computer.

We've had this conversation so many times now, I've lost track of everything that has been said, but I know that there's no way for Apple to make everyone happy here.
post #206 of 362
I'd love to know how many times this topic has been discussed. Honestly there are only a few important issues that nobody is bothering to figure out. #1 Why does Apple not want to build an xMac? and #2 What would force Apple to build, or decide that it was the right time to build, a headless prosumer Mac. I've always felt that if Apple wanted to do it they would have before now. Their two attempts at a headless Mac (the Cube and Mini) are (were) not up to what most people would want in a xMac. There's something, and not just Steve, that keeps them from doing it. Unless you can answer the above questions, which we can't, any thread like this is nothing more than an extended group rant. Perhaps the better thing to do, as somebody suggested, is to write to Apple about what we're looking for. It might not work but it's better repeating the same thing over and over. Most people want an xMac but clearly Apple doesn't and that's all that matters. I know the purpose of a forum is to discuss and debate but it just seems endless. Maybe we should send an open letter to Apple on why a xMac is needed.
post #207 of 362
Quote:
#1 Why does Apple not want to build an xMac? and #2 What would force Apple to build, or decide that it was the right time to build, a headless prosumer Mac. I've always felt that if Apple wanted to do it they would have before now. Their two attempts at a headless Mac (the Cube and Mini) are (were) not up to what most people would want in a xMac.

1.) Apple doesn't want to build a 'xMac' because it's last attempt in this market failed. Like it or not, the Cube didn't work. At the time, the Cube was what people had been asking for, a headless iMac that allowed users to upgrade the graphics card. Of course, people had also stated that because it was a "Prosumer" machine, it should have a G4 instead of a G3. When the Cube was released, people balked at the price. It didn't help that the G4 just wasn't gaining any speed at the time either. That said, I'm almost positive that we'd be having the same conversations about the price of the 'xMac' if it were ever released.

2.) Nothing is going to force Apple to make a headless "Prosumer" Mac. While it's true that the Mac Mini doesn't fit the 'xMac' definition, the Cube very much fit the description of the Mac people wanted back then. The main thing that people didn't like about the Cube was the price, and I'm guessing that would be the same thing people wouldn't like about the 'xMac'.
post #208 of 362
We keep hearing about the Cube and the Mac Mini.

:rant:
The Cube is/was NOT (for most of us) a mid tower. Yes, maybe it had the specs and similiar blah, blah, blah as other PC towers... (enter dead-horse argument here) but it like the Mac Mini lacks one major feature.

IT'S NOT OPEN FOR UPGRADES!!!

(please don't ask me why I need to upgrade... that will just be pointless)

Why is it like pulling teeth to see this point? We don't want a sealed box. We don't like the limited options that the Apple Elite tell us are good enough. I want choices!!! That's all. User designed choices. NOT PREPACKAGED ONES!!! I would love to have the blue-million choices that the PC boxes allow with the awesome Apple OS. For some reason yet to be explained in all of this mental masturbation is the real why?

Mac essentially is "allowing" the public the opportunity to purchase either a laptop, an All-in-One, a mini or a behemoth.

Are you trying to tell me that I gotta fit into one of these slots? What if I don't? Then I go with a lesser computer (a PC) because I don't have my mind right?

That is REALLY what it sounds like is being suggested.

About a month ago I wanted to get a Mac soooo badly. Now I'm beginning to rethink my position. I can get a custom PC, more powerful, less expensive and (horrors...) upgradeable for about $1000 less than the topped out iMac 24".

So why in the Sam Hill would I want to buy a Mac now???

BTW, I'm one of those Prosumers. Professional by day consumer by night. I'm a professional video Photojournalist and editor. At home I'm a video hobbiest with a wicked appetite for a good interface. I know what I need and Mac apparently doesn't want me to be able to buy it.


:end rant:
post #209 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOXPhotog View Post

About a month ago I wanted to get a Mac soooo badly. Now I'm beginning to rethink my position. I can get a custom PC, more powerful, less expensive and (horrors...) upgradeable for about $1000 less than the topped out iMac 24".

And that will almost always be the case except for the Mac Pro. Macs are simply not all that cost effective except at the top end.

In any case, why would you get a topped out iMac 24" anyway? A "topped out" iMac 24 is over $3600.

Get a Mac Pro with a X1900 for $2700 and add a Dell 24" for $569 or a Dell 30" for $1,269.

Buy some memory from Crucial.

Quad core, 2.66Ghz, X1900, 1GB RAM, 250GB HDD, Dell 30" for $3969. A far better deal than a topped out iMac 24.

A good value vs a Dell workstation.

Quote:
So why in the Sam Hill would I want to buy a Mac now???

BTW, I'm one of those Prosumers. Professional by day consumer by night. I'm a professional video Photojournalist and editor. At home I'm a video hobbiest with a wicked appetite for a good interface. I know what I need and Mac apparently doesn't want me to be able to buy it.

If the tools on OSX does not increase your productivity enough to offset the cost then you don't want a mac.

For you a 15" MBP with a 24" or 30" Dell monitor seems better than a tower anyway. Having FCP available on the flight home or in your hotel room might be useful...or not if you don't travel.

But it really is more about your tool chain than the OS or hardware that should decide for you.

Vinea
post #210 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOXPhotog View Post


The Cube is/was NOT (for most of us) a mid tower. . . like the Mac Mini lacks one major feature.

IT'S NOT OPEN FOR UPGRADES!!!

. . . We don't like the limited options that the Apple Elite tell us are good enough. I want choices!!! That's all. User designed choices. NOT PREPACKAGED ONES!!! . . .

Mac essentially is "allowing" the public the opportunity to purchase either a laptop, an All-in-One, a mini or a behemoth.

Are you trying to tell me that I gotta fit into one of these slots? . . .


BRAVO!

By the way, have you considered getting a dual core G5 Power Mac on eBay? It's still big, but a lot cheaper than a Mac Pro.

post #211 of 362
Quote:
Mac essentially is "allowing" the public the opportunity to purchase either a laptop, an All-in-One, a mini or a behemoth.

Are you trying to tell me that I gotta fit into one of these slots? What if I don't? Then I go with a lesser computer (a PC) because I don't have my mind right?

That is REALLY what it sounds like is being suggested.

As hard as it is to imagine, some of us remember Apple before Steve Jobs took over as CEO from Gil Amelio in July of 1997. Let's take a trip down memory lane.

In 1996-1997, Apple was hemmorhaging money. The company was making major plays for market share and had allowed other companies to license System/Mac OS 7.x and make Mac clones. Power Computing was the most notable, at one point having the fastest Mac out on the market and also undercutting Apple's prices.

At the same time, Apple had literally dozens of machines for sale. They had pizza boxes, towers, all in ones, and laptops. Some of their 'pizza box' Macs were the exact same machines as some of their towers, only in a different case. Some towers were under the Performa line, some were under the Power Mac line. Apple had a major problem, there were too many Macs on the market.

When Jobs took over as CEO, he took action almost immediately. Mac OS 7.7 was renamed to Mac OS 8, which helped end Mac cloning. The Performa brand was discontinued, the Power Mac G3 was released in two varieties (the last pizza box which had already been in development and a tower), and the PowerBook G3 was released (a PowerBook 3400 with a G3 which had already been in development). Anything not directly related to the Mac was killed off, including Apple's printer lines, the Newton, scanners, QuickTake cameras, etc.

Over the course of the next few years, the product line was consolidated to the iMac, the iBook, the Power Mac, and the PowerBook. The decision to consolidate the lines saved Apple. After a few years, the Power Mac G4 Cube was released and it didn't sell well. Apple discontinued it realizing that the market wasn't there for the machine. Apple also tried to maintain an educational all in one called the eMac before realizing that the market was just as willing to buy an iMac. It was also discontinued. Apple did listen to customers though, and the Mac Mini was released as a cheap, entry level machine in 2005.

I know people will argue that the iMac doesn't work for them for X, Y, and Z reasons. But Apple has catered to overlapping segments of the market before and it just hasn't worked out for them. It's obvious that they see the iMac as a 'Prosumer' machine. I think that if Apple saw a market for a mid range tower, they'd release one.

But even if Apple did release a mid range Mac tower, you *still* would have people upset because Apple would charge more for their towers than Dell, HP, <insert PC manufacturer here>. You'd *still* see these boards dominated by posts saying, "I could get a Dell that has the exact same specs as the 'xMac' for $300 cheaper OMFG".

Quote:
I can get a custom PC, more powerful, less expensive and (horrors...) upgradeable

If you're looking for Apple to release a machine that is more powerful, less expensive, and more upgradeable than other custom PCs, you're going to be waiting for a heck of a long time because it's not going to happen.
post #212 of 362
So far it looks like 1077 people would like it.

http://www.digg.com/apple/Open_Lette...he_Missing_Mac

post #213 of 362
Look at what Gateway is rolling out at $1399 after rebate:

http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529665346.php

2.4GHz dual core, 320MB 8800 GTS, 2GB RAM, 250GB hard drive, and a safe 'n' sane mini tower case.

Go ahead and stack the Apple tax on that for OS X, and a nicer enclosure, etc. Should still be under $2K IMO.
post #214 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post


One 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon 5130
1 GB RAM (512 MB x2)
250 GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256 MB
One 16x SuperDrive
No Built in Wireless (Airport/Bluetooth)
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse (Wired)
Mac OS X 10.4.9
No Monitor
$1699
.

That's a system is going to be no faster the $1199 iMac and it still has the insanely expensive and high latency FB-DIMMs. No rational person is going to give up their PC for that. How about instead of trying to cripple everything and trying to gouge people for money, they try to make the best and most innovative computer in that category like they did with the blue and white g3. That doesn't mean some bizarre form factor that is so out there that it doesn't do the job. it means sticking a P965 motherboard with its desktop ram and conroe CPUs into the superior Mac Pro case and continuing the legacy of the PowerMac. Apple had chances in the 80s and right after the original iMac was released to gain and keep a significant marketshare. Both times they let their arrogance get the best of them and they slipped into unprofitability. If they squander this really big chance with that same arrogance, they might not get a 4th.

As for the failure of the past:

Cube: More expensive than PMG4 at same price. Looks better, but really an impractical design.

Late PowerMac G4/G5: Non-competitive PowerPC cpus. No chance for any real switchers due to platform. PMG5 case large and less practical than the one it replaced.
post #215 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by boots View Post

Look at what Gateway is rolling out at $1399 after rebate:

http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529665346.php

2.4GHz dual core, 320MB 8800 GTS, 2GB RAM, 250GB hard drive, and a safe 'n' sane mini tower case.

Go ahead and stack the Apple tax on that for OS X, and a nicer enclosure, etc. Should still be under $2K IMO.

Better yet:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1173577735222

2.4ghz Core 2 Duo
2GB of high end PC5300 DDR2 RAM
320GB hard drive
20x DVD burner
256MB Geforce 8600GT
Similar quality and appearance to Apple
$1499

OSX is worth a lot, but it isn't worth twice the price of a high end PC.
post #216 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post

1.) Apple doesn't want to build a 'xMac' because it's last attempt in this market failed. Like it or not, the Cube didn't work. At the time, the Cube was what people had been asking for, a headless iMac that allowed users to upgrade the graphics card. Of course, people had also stated that because it was a "Prosumer" machine, it should have a G4 instead of a G3. When the Cube was released, people balked at the price. It didn't help that the G4 just wasn't gaining any speed at the time either. That said, I'm almost positive that we'd be having the same conversations about the price of the 'xMac' if it were ever released.

2.) Nothing is going to force Apple to make a headless "Prosumer" Mac. While it's true that the Mac Mini doesn't fit the 'xMac' definition, the Cube very much fit the description of the Mac people wanted back then. The main thing that people didn't like about the Cube was the price, and I'm guessing that would be the same thing people wouldn't like about the 'xMac'.

Actually I think it's more complex than the Cube failing. If you took the guts of the iMac and put it into a simple box, not concept enclosure like the Cube, and bundled it with a LCD at a good price it would work. The Cube was a head of its time and Apple wouldn't need to make that mistake again. If you're right and Apple can never be forced to make a xMac than why bother debating it? I agree that Apple is a bit gun shy and nobody is asking them nor should be return to the pre-Jobs days, but if Apple sold the iMac as "headless" with the same prices and specs, but allowing upgrades, that would make most people happy.

Mac Mini from $599
xMac from $999 (same prices as current 17" 20" and 24" when bundled with a display of that size)
Mac Pro from $2400
post #217 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoganT View Post

So far it looks like 1077 people would like it.

http://www.digg.com/apple/Open_Lette...he_Missing_Mac


Over 2500 now.
post #218 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post

1.) Apple doesn't want to build a 'xMac' because it's last attempt in this market failed. Like it or not, the Cube didn't work. At the time, the Cube was what people had been asking for, a headless iMac that allowed users to upgrade the graphics card. Of course, people had also stated that because it was a "Prosumer" machine, it should have a G4 instead of a G3. When the Cube was released, people balked at the price. It didn't help that the G4 just wasn't gaining any speed at the time either. That said, I'm almost positive that we'd be having the same conversations about the price of the 'xMac' if it were ever released.

2.) Nothing is going to force Apple to make a headless "Prosumer" Mac. While it's true that the Mac Mini doesn't fit the 'xMac' definition, the Cube very much fit the description of the Mac people wanted back then. The main thing that people didn't like about the Cube was the price, and I'm guessing that would be the same thing people wouldn't like about the 'xMac'.

Actually, the machine we wanted apple already made and was $200 cheaper. It was called the PowerMac g4. The cube was a failed attempt to reshape the medium to high end desktop market. Like with the upper range iMacs, apple is trying to change a market that doesn't want or need change. As a result, notebooks are flying off the shelfs, but the desktops are remaining stagnant.
post #219 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoganT

So far it looks like 1077 people would like it.

http://www.digg.com/apple/Open_Lette...he_Missing_Mac


Quote:
Originally Posted by LBenRoethig

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoganT

So far it looks like 1077 people would like it.

http://www.digg.com/apple/Open_Lette...he_Missing_Mac


Over 2500 now.

less than an hour later up to 2739

Appears to be gaining steam.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
post #220 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Actually, the machine we wanted apple already made and was $200 cheaper. It was called the PowerMac g4. The cube was a failed attempt to reshape the medium to high end desktop market. Like with the upper range iMacs, apple is trying to change a market that doesn't want or need change. As a result, notebooks are flying off the shelfs, but the desktops are remaining stagnant.

This is such an easy concept to grasp it defies logic to argue against an xMac.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #221 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy View Post

BRAVO!

By the way, have you considered getting a dual core G5 Power Mac on eBay? It's still big, but a lot cheaper than a Mac Pro.



That is a great idea! Are the G5's able to run OS X?

Thanks for the suggestion,

FOXPhotog
post #222 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOXPhotog View Post

That is a great idea! Are the G5's able to run OS X?

Thanks for the suggestion,

FOXPhotog

Opps, one more potential lost sale for a new Apple computer, as the used market seems the best competition against Apple's own mid to upper end computers.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #223 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post

As hard as it is to imagine, some of us remember Apple before Steve Jobs took over as CEO from Gil Amelio in July of 1997. Let's take a trip down memory lane.

<<SNIP>>

All of that turbulent history is very true. We are not asking for all of or even any of that bad business model.

Rather, it seems most of us would be ok with a MacPro with more "upgrade friendly" features. Meaning that I would gladly buy a base MacPro with Conroe or equivalent architecture. One that would allow the user to swap in (aftermarket) drives, graphics cards etc.

We're not asking Apple to hit every niche out there, rather to make a machine that niche folks can adjust for themselves.

Quote:
But even if Apple did release a mid range Mac tower, you *still* would have people upset because Apple would charge more for their towers than Dell, HP, <insert PC manufacturer here>. You'd *still* see these boards dominated by posts saying, "I could get a Dell that has the exact same specs as the 'xMac' for $300 cheaper OMFG".

True. You will also have people who drink bong water.

Some folks cannot be pleased, ever. But that is not about whom we are speaking.

Quote:
If you're looking for Apple to release a machine that is more powerful, less expensive, and more upgradeable than other custom PCs, you're going to be waiting for a heck of a long time because it's not going to happen.


How about powerful, upgradeable, lower priced than the MacPro. Based on the MacPro architecture maybe???
post #224 of 362
Quote:
Apple had chances in the 80s and right after the original iMac was released to gain and keep a significant marketshare. Both times they let their arrogance get the best of them and they slipped into unprofitability. If they squander this really big chance with that same arrogance, they might not get a 4th.

It's was Apple's plays for Mac marketshare that got them into trouble in the first place. Heck, I used to think and hope that Apple would turn things around and start making major gains in market share for the Mac. After all, increased market share meant increased software support for the Mac. But to a certain extent, I was all wrong. When developers were abandoning Mac support in the mid to late 1990s, it was because 'Apple was doomed'. There was the real possibility that Apple was not going to turn things around and developers didn't want to waste time developing for a system that wasn't going to be around for much longer. But once Apple proved to developers that it wasn't going anywhere and Mac OS X was released, developers came back to the Mac.

Apple is in a good place right now and making tons of money. Why would they jeopardize this by trying to undercut HP/Dell/etc.? That's what it would take to gain significant market share. Heck, Microsoft loses money on every Xbox/Xbox 360 they sell, all in the name of market share. Is that the road we want Apple to head down?

Quote:
Actually, the machine we wanted apple already made and was $200 cheaper. It was called the PowerMac g4. The cube was a failed attempt to reshape the medium to high end desktop market. Like with the upper range iMacs, apple is trying to change a market that doesn't want or need change. As a result, notebooks are flying off the shelfs, but the desktops are remaining stagnant.

We're going in circles here. Just a few posts ago, you were saying that no rational person would 'give up their PC' for the Mac Pro I listed. I said that if Apple offered a solo Xeon instead of a dual processor Mac Pro, it might help fit the gap in the lineup people are talking about. Now you are saying that the machine you wanted was already offered in the solo processor Power Mac G4 when Apple was offering dual processors in the rest of the lineup. $1599 got you a 400 MHz G4, 64 MB of RAM, and a 20 GB Hard Drive. So yes, it needed to be upgraded out of the box just like most people would do with the Mac Pro I posted.

Anyway, this discussion continues to be all over the place with some people insisting the xMac has to start at $999 while others say they are looking at the $1200-$1800 range. There's never going to be a consensus here and even if Apple released a mid range tower, it's going to be more expensive than people think/want. The comparisons between Apple and HP/Dell/etc. need to stop because we all know that Apple is going to charge more.
post #225 of 362
Quote:
How about powerful, upgradeable, lower priced than the MacPro. Based on the MacPro architecture maybe???

Did you miss the post I made about this?

One 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon 5130
1 GB RAM (512 MB x2)
250 GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256 MB
One 16x SuperDrive
No Built in Wireless (Airport/Bluetooth)
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse (Wired)
Mac OS X 10.4.9
No Monitor
$1699

That's the Mac Pro with the same type of processor, but only one, and everything else is direct from the stock 2.66 GHz Mac Pro. Same architecture, same case, the same possible upgrades, but only one processor. But we've already heard from people in this thread that it's not what they want.
post #226 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post

Did you miss the post I made about this?

One 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon 5130
1 GB RAM (512 MB x2)
250 GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256 MB
One 16x SuperDrive
No Built in Wireless (Airport/Bluetooth)
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse (Wired)
Mac OS X 10.4.9
No Monitor
$1699

That's the Mac Pro with the same type of processor, but only one, and everything else is direct from the stock 2.66 GHz Mac Pro. Same architecture, same case, the same possible upgrades, but only one processor. But we've already heard from people in this thread that it's not what they want.


Looking better. This is what I'd go for!

FOXPhotog
post #227 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

No rational person is going to give up their PC for that.

No rational person is going to buy a single Xeon Dell Precision? I wonder why they offer it as a BTO then?

Vinea
post #228 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post

Did you miss the post I made about this?

One 2.0 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon 5130
1 GB RAM (512 MB x2)
250 GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256 MB
One 16x SuperDrive
No Built in Wireless (Airport/Bluetooth)
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse (Wired)
Mac OS X 10.4.9
No Monitor
$1699

That's the Mac Pro with the same type of processor, but only one, and everything else is direct from the stock 2.66 GHz Mac Pro. Same architecture, same case, the same possible upgrades, but only one processor. But we've already heard from people in this thread that it's not what they want.

And you don't seem to understand why. 2.0ghz CPU and insanely expensive high latency memory. 2.33ghz is a the minimum I would go for at that price. Of course Apple doesn't use those and it wouldn't involve sacrificing your own requirements for the benefit of Apple. Apple has a case, intel has a cpu and motherboard platform specifically designed for desktops, close to 97% of desktops sold are towers. This is not that hard to figure out. Disconnect from Apple's hive mind people and start thinking for yourselves for a minute or too. This is not that hard to figure out.
post #229 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOXPhotog View Post

That is a great idea! Are the G5's able to run OS X?

Thanks for the suggestion,

FOXPhotog

Yes, but its dead technology. You're better off buying a Mac Pro and ebaying the extra Xeon if you are inclined toward the single Xeon model that has been suggested.

Vinea
post #230 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

No rational person is going to buy a single Xeon Dell Precision? I wonder why they offer it as a BTO then?

Vinea

They call them low end professional workstations and the conroe ones outnumber the xeon ones by a large majority in the single CPU arena. Why do they offer them in single CPU configurations then? They allow the user to choose for themselves instead of insisting on trying to think for them. We are also talking desktops, not workstations. Different users, different requirements.
post #231 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

2.0ghz CPU and insanely expensive high latency memory.

Apple Mac Pro DDR2 PC2-5300 4GB Kit = $497.99

Dell Precision 390 (Conroe) DDR2 PC2-5300 4GB kit = $355.99

http://www.crucial.com/store/listpar...%284%2Dcore%29

Insanely Expensive = $142 difference

Gotcha.

Oh and given the cost difference between Apple and Dell at the dual 2.66Ghz range it seems that Apple could offer a single Xeon 2.66Ghz at $1699 ($50 cheaper than dell).

Vinea

PS FB-DIMMs have the advantage of being able to have more memory...its a design decision of increased latency vs vm.
post #232 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

They call them low end professional workstations and the conroe ones outnumber the xeon ones by a large majority in the single CPU arena. Why do they offer them in single CPU configurations then? They allow the user to choose for themselves instead of insisting on trying to think for them. We are also talking desktops, not workstations. Different users, different requirements.

Oddly...I use my mac pro as a desktop with no ill effects. There's no difference between a "desktop" and a "workstation" except cost. What "different requirements" OTHER than price?

There's nothing that a single xeon Mac Pro couldn't do that a conroe based Mac Pro could except slightly slower (but with better expansion to 8 cores).

Vinea
post #233 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Apple Mac Pro DDR2 PC2-5300 4GB Kit = $497.99

Dell Precision 390 (Conroe) DDR2 PC2-5300 4GB kit = $355.99

http://www.crucial.com/store/listpar...%284%2Dcore%29

Insanely Expensive = $142 difference

Gotcha.

Oh and given the cost difference between Apple and Dell at the dual 2.66Ghz range it seems that Apple could offer a single Xeon 2.66Ghz at $1699 ($50 cheaper than dell).

Vinea

PS FB-DIMMs have the advantage of being able to have more memory...its a design decision of increased latency vs vm.

You're comparing Dell prices to third party FB-DIMMS.

At newegg.com, the most expensive price for 2GB (2x1GB kit) DDR667 memory is $245 for super high end gaming ram. The normal stuff is around $100. You're paying between between $240-350 for the same amount of memory (4x512 since Apple does not offer 2x1GB) on sale.

That money might seem insignificant to you because you apparently have no budget, but for those of use who are not insanely rich, it adds up.
post #234 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Oddly...I use my mac pro as a desktop with no ill effects. There's no difference between a "desktop" and a "workstation" except cost. What "different requirements" OTHER than price?

There's nothing that a single xeon Mac Pro couldn't do that a conroe based Mac Pro could except slightly slower (but with better expansion to 8 cores).

Vinea

True there is no consumer task a xeon workstation can't do and do well, there is no disputing that. However, a Conroe desktop can do those same tasks at nearly half the price. And yes there is an ill effect, workstation = waiting a much longer time and not getting an ibook replacement as well.

As my sig says, it's like having to buy one of these:
http://www.freightlinertrucks.com/tr...el/M2-100-106/

To do the work of one of these:
http://www.dodge.com/en/ram_1500/index.html
post #235 of 362
Quote:
And you don't seem to understand why. 2.0ghz CPU and insanely expensive high latency memory. 2.33ghz is a the minimum I would go for at that price. Of course Apple doesn't use those and it wouldn't involve sacrificing your own requirements for the benefit of Apple. Apple has a case, intel has a cpu and motherboard platform specifically designed for desktops, close to 97% of desktops sold are towers. This is not that hard to figure out. Disconnect from Apple's hive mind people and start thinking for yourselves for a minute or too. This is not that hard to figure out.

So because people are playing devil's advocate, they're somehow connected to 'Appe's hive mind' and are unable to think for themselves?

The point that is always made by this topic is that people don't want to pay so much for Apple's Power Mac or Mac Pro towers. People want the same expandability, similar speed, the same options, and sometimes even the same case. But they want this at half of the price of the existing towers. People point to Dell, IBM, HP, etc. to make their point about why Apple should offer that machine at the price they want. People also say that it will increase Mac market share and that 'everyone' will want to buy one. Yet despite all of the great moves that Apple has made since 1997, they don't make this machine. Do you think they know something that we don't?

My PowerBook G4 is almost dead and I'm in the market for a new computer. I've been saving money for quite some time and I can't decide whether I want a Mac Pro or a MacBook Pro. On the one hand, I like owning a portable, but on the other hand, I want a computer that's going to last a long time and I know the Mac Pro will. While the Mac Pro might be overkill for what I'm doing now, it won't be overkill 4 years from now. Definitely keep that in mind when you consider the prices of Mac towers.
post #236 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOXPhotog View Post


That is a great idea! Are the G5's able to run OS X?

Thanks for the suggestion,


Yes, and both the G4 and G5 should run Mac OS X for many years to come. Apple's Universal software lets applications run natively on either a PPC (G5 etc.) or Intel processor. There is a down side only if you need the speed and power of new Intel chips, or if you need to run Windows applications on the same computer.

I'm not running anything more demanding than Logic, Apple's professional music application, and for a few Windows applications, I have an older PC in the basement. The bottom line is that Apple provides my OS and updates, plus several of my important applications. My hardware comes from eBay.

I don't know whether you have purchased computers on eBay? I have been doing it for six or seven years now. I've discovered that if I am patient and do my research, I can get a very good deal. I'm running three Power Mac towers now, and will like wait two years before getting a Xeon Mac Pro from eBay. Plans could change if Apple begins to make a prosumer mini tower.

post #237 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post


The point that is always made by this topic is that people don't want to pay so much for Apple's Power Mac or Mac Pro towers. People want the same expandability, similar speed, the same options, and sometimes even the same case. But they want this at half of the price of the existing towers.


Me thinks you exaggerate too greatly. Most of us who want a prosumer tower would be happy with a single Xeon Mac Pro, except for price. It's been mentioned over and over that a Mac Pro has excess cost built into it, in the form of a more expensive CPU, more costly RAM, four HDD bays when two would be enough, and an overkill power supply for a single CPU mini tower.

If Apple made a prosumer tower and priced it with typical Apple margins, it would provide a lot more value for Mac users who only need and/or want a prosumer tower. Why should we pay for a workstation just to get 3 PCIe cards, two HDDs and two optical drives? If Apple offered a mini tower, fewer people would point to what Dell, IBM, HP, etc. offer. And yes, it will increase Mac market share.

Does Apple know something that we don't? No, but they're in denial.

post #238 of 362
Quote:
Me thinks you exaggerate too greatly.

Given the number of times I've read a thread on this topic in the last 8 years, I can safely say I'm not exaggerating.
post #239 of 362
Well that Open Letter to Steve Jobs on digg's website is up to 3541 duggs.

At least those of us that have posted our desire for a mythical xMac can console ourselves that we're not alone, and not the "few pot bangers" that has been suggested here and on other threads.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #240 of 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

You're comparing Dell prices to third party FB-DIMMS.

Both prices are from crucial.

Quote:
At newegg.com, the most expensive price for 2GB (2x1GB kit) DDR667 memory is $245 for super high end gaming ram.

Which means the 4GB set for the Mac Pro from Crucial is the same price.

So much for insanely expensive.

And no, no-name ram from new egg is not the same as comparing ram from crucial. The price delta is a $100.

Vinea
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