Will Apple ever make this machine? - Page 2

I believe the xMac we are talking about here falls into a prosumer line. It's offers the buyer more than a lowend computer but it is not the powerhouse of the Mac Pro. I agree that apple needs this type of computer in their lineup and here is why:

The 4 main issues I see problems with in apples current lineup are graphics card, expandability, footprint, and displays. Consumers see no need for a dedicated graphics card and therefore the macmini does not have one, and the imac and mac pro do. So if you want the graphics power like a prosumer would want, a mac mini is out of the question. But the imac is stuck when it comes to expandability and display...you cannot upgrade easily or have multiple internal hard drives, and although the imac has a Great footprint, many users already own displays (maybe even multiple displays). So the imac does not offer what the prosumer really wants in an xMac either. The only other option we have is the Mac Pro. The consensus seems to be that the Mac Pro is way too expensive for many prosumers and it does have quite a large footprint. And from what I have read in these threads, there is obviously a demand for something less.

I think apple could easily offer a "mini mac pro" or a "displayless imac" priced between $999 and $1999. If you look at the imac line, you pay for a laptop chip and a display...take away the display and add faster processers in and you can keep the same price points. Now all they have to do is design a form factor that allows for a few hard drive bays, pci cards, etc while keeping it relatively small.

Essentially what you have is a faster imac without the displays and in a different form factor. The only line it would really cut into in sales is the imacs, but it could be dubbed the iMacs twin or cousin or something. What do you think?

I think they should get rid of the iMac.

Excellent analysis of the problem, and your solution matches one I posted on page one of this thread, even the price range. So then, what can I say but "Right on."

Whoa! Now that is thinking different, but I'd bet that Steve isn't willing to go that far.

I like your ideas on what Apple could provide, and I think that each one of these are feasible. Personally, I would prefer a mix between the two. I think Apple can make a Mini Tower that is pretty small for a desktop, but can still be easily accesible for upgrades and high performance!

Great ideas though...now let's see it happen Steve.

i'd just love a machine that sat in between the mini and the macpro. i dont want the iMac as an all in one ( primarily for not liking the white ) plus i want to use a screen of my choice. the mini is too small for my storage needs, and i dont want external drives. the macpro is just too much at the other end.

but if i could get the specs of the iMac in a box mid-way between the mini and macpro, then i'd jump on it.

The iMac, although pricey, is exactly the kind of computer a family needs.

I don't know how many people know of this or use this, but Apple offers a feedback page where you can send them features you think should be in their products or ways to improve what they already have. I have used it several recently, but I don't know how quickly Apple acts on this seeing as it would go through so many people to get approved. HA ha, worth a try...

www.apple.com/feedback

Do it and see if anything changes...then you can tell your children in 15 years that you told apple they should make that!

I think the Mac Mini is the kind of computer a family needs.

They really just need to allow the Mac Mini to be more upgradeable. A higher end mini takes care of most of the issues, if the video card and processor were changeable to higher end specs, then I think that would take care of more people. Card slots and additional drive bays I think would be unnecessary for the majority of people.

No real reason for a new model.

Agreed, unless the family already has a nice LCD monitor, as many of us do. I have a 22 inch, wide screen ViewSonic on my music workstation. There is no way would I get an iMac for it, though I suspect I'll want an Intel Mac there one of these days. When that day comes, current Mac Pros will be selling much cheaper on eBay. Sorry Apple; you don't have what I want.

It's possible to upgrade the Mac Mini, but it is not the kind of thing the average person would be willing to tackle. Reasons for a new model:

1) Price. Using standard HDD and optical drive will lower cost of components.

2) More space for cooling to accommodate faster CPUs and GPUs.

3) Business is interested in a easily repairable computer.

4) Consumers want lower prices or better performance.

5) Increase sales and boost price of AAPL stock.

One question on my mind is where is the average consumer going to put all that iTunes movie and tv show content?

Right now it doesnt seem to be that big of a deal, but with the apple TV and a shift from owning a DVD to owning the file...we are going to need either larger hard drives in smaller sizes or the ability to hold multiple hard drives without cluttering the desk with externals!

I, for one, have an iTunes music library of 48 GB, movie library of 71 GB, and TV Shows comprise 40GB. I have a PowerMac G4 quicksilver with 2 hard drive bays. I just ordered a 750 GB hard drive to accomodate for my growing music and movie collection and I think this powermac is a great computer!! Now, if apple could add some newer technology in a computer like the Powermac G4's (while changing the form factor to something slightly smaller) they would hit a great market.

I know I am a pretty heavy prosumer, but is that not what this future generation becoming. I skimmed an article in PC Mag about how the next generation are almost as computer savy as the people that make the computers...loose quote because i couldnt remember exactly!

And that just asks the questions about storage...what about graphics, cpu, and display?

The vibe I'm getting here is that 17 year old nerds seem to believe that buying iMacs will make them pariah among the League of Nerds, or that they don't have much cashflow and want to hook up to shitty hand-me-down monitors, presumably saving money from not having to pay for the iMac's display. Just mow lawns for a few more weeks, get the damn iMac, and quit moaning. The League of Nerds will not knock you down a rank for buying an iMac. I can promise this since I myself am I high-ranking nerd.

The word "prosumer" is one of my pet peeves, since everyone I've ever encountered who throws it around is anything but a pro. First off, everyone is a consumer: you, your grandma, google corporate. . . all consumers. Pros are people who use their computers to produce professional work for professional endeavors. Usually this means money. There are undoubtedly pros that operate fine on mac minis: I think mac minis are fine computers for many software authors. If you think that whatever it is you do requires a lot of computational power, screen resolution, or expansion, you might call yourself a power user.

Why the distinction? A power user today is not necessarily a power user tomorrow, but a pro today is a pro tomorrow. For example, if you have been in to video for the past 10 or even 20 years, you used to be a major power user. It used to take a custom Avid workstation to do anything meaningful, in pseudo real time, with a video project. Now, a bottom of the line mac with iMovie does a damn respectable job at it. Having 48G of music files and 71G of videos hardly makes you a power user, either. My old iMac G5 has a 500G disk.

As PCs (as in "personal computers") become so fast, there will inevitably become fewer and fewer power users. I do some pretty heavy shit -- mathematical simulations, 3D CAD, electronic circuit board design -- and I'm not even sure I'm power user anymore. A pro, yes, but probably not a power user.

Despite the fact that this "next generation" has been pervaded by tech products and information readiness to the point where anything other than "instant" is not acceptable, they are not necessarily power users. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that they are bigger basic-consumer than ever. Apple, google, etc come out with new toys and they eat this shit up. If anything, the future is right on Steve's old roadmap: the PC is becoming more and more of a digital hub for consumer gadgets than it is a tool for heavy computation.

You are pretty good at ignoring several other reasons noted in this thread. Your post looks more like a strawman than anything else.

6) Desktop ram, cpus, and video cards cost less them laptop ones.

And in the case of the Mac Pros, regular desktop RAM is 2-3 times less.

Well said, a power user is a much better distinction. But the fact of the matter remains is when a consumer of any kind buys a mac mini and it does not provide what he needs and he is not a professional so he doesnt need a Mac Pro...there needs to be a middle line for such "power user."

iMacs do not cut it with lack of expandability and built in display...read previous post.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but the OS X Dictionary has this to say about "prosumer:"


So the way "prosumer" is used in these threads is perfectly valid -- meaning an amateur who buys professional quality equipment. A prosumer may buy a Mac Pro for example, but a mini tower would be appealing because it offers many of these features and higher performance at a much lower cost.

A prosumer may be satisfied with less than cutting edge capability, whereas a professional may not.

But really...whether it is a 17 year old that doesnt want the imac monitor or the 50 year old that has 2 23inchers, there is still a demand.

Apple clearly uses the marketing goal of product focus, in which they innovate and don't necessarily follow the wants or desires of a consumer. In this way, they can innovate rather than get stuck on pleasing people. However, what the focus of this thread seems to be is that Apple could easily do it and many people would buy it! You might not buy it, but there is a demand nonetheless.

Call the wambulance.

This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.


So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.

The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.

End of what story? That's a horribly biased example. The Cube doesn't compare because it was a UP that was only $200 cheaper than a DP PowerMac. It was good for the uppity style-concious (which makes me wonder why Apple didn't sell more) space concious, but pretty much no one else.


I'd say that's patently false because most of the rest of the consumer universe doesn't even bother with any Mac at all. That $300 is half the average sell price of a computer.

Just because they havn't released it doesn't mean there are not plans to or they are not considering it. That is what we are talking about here, do we think apple will release one?

I certainly think apple has the ability to release one with moderate to high impact to their position in the market. Whether they will or not....well, that's why I am begging for it!

Affordable for who? We're not all sitting on BMW budgets here. To get 2.33ghz, 2GB of RAM, and a 7600GT you have to work over $2500 and agree to buy a 24" display if you really want one or not. For $1400 Velocity Micro, a high end boutique maker with similar quality to Apple, will give you a 2.4ghz Core 2, 2GB of high end corsair RAM, a 320GB hard drive, the brand new 8600GT, both a 20x DVD-burner and 16x DVD-ROM, and a ton of room for expansion. You're free to buy the display and webcam you want. If it wasn't for Apple locking Mac OS X to its own hardware this wouldn't be a hard choice at all. Look, I'm willing to pay a premium for Apple and the OS, but I'm not stupid. I'm not going to pay a premium for hardware that doesn't do the job. Apple has the perfect case for the job, why waste it on only the super rich.

You're not getting it. It's not that people can't afford an iMac. It has nothing to do with that. People want a mid range tower between $999 and $1999 so they can pick up their own display, upgrade the graphics card, put a bigger HD in, and maybe update the optical drive. Oh and Apple needs an actual computer with a desktop chip in it.

I simply don't believe you are that naive. I don't know why Apple has not released a prosumer mini tower yet, but I can't accept the insufficient demand argument, nor the "Apple can't compete with a mini tower" notion.

To me, you seem to be needlessly defensive about the iMac, as though many of us here would like to abolish it. Not so, except maybe for one or two. The furthest I'd go is to say that Apple would be better off with a mini tower than an iMac, but there is no reason Apple can't offer both. There are many iMac fans in the Apple camp, and there should be an iMac for as long as demand for it continues.

A mini tower, however, can be configured in many more ways than the iMac, and it is possible to get all the performance and features of any iMac with a mini tower, with display purchased separately. In addition, a mini tower would be far more attractive to potential switchers, as a form they are very familiar with. The only unique advantage of the iMac is small footprint, which I think explains the iMac following.

So, if I were CEO and had to choose between the two models, iMac or mini tower, there is no doubt which one I'd pick. To repeat however, there is no reason Apple cannot offer both.

Oh, I'm getting it. Apple isn't interested in this niche market you speak of. The amount of people that actually fit into your target demographic and would consider buying a mac, I'm afraid, is ludicrously small. Apple has so far cultivated a highly coveted position in the computer market by delivering a consistent user experiences: a brand. The cost of building, marketing, and maintaining a low-end tower in their product lineup does not seem to be financially intelligent.

Moreover, what advantage do you get from upgrading the components in a computer that is already far more powerful than you know what to do with?



My message since the first post I made in this ridiculous, circle-jerk of a thread is that "prosumers" are idiots who measure themselves by their tools and not their work. I rip on consumer audiophiles, too, and for the same reasons. The iMac happens to exist currently, which makes it a baseline with which to compare. Based on the testamonials everyone seems to provide (or lack thereof), I am certain the iMac is enough computer for the audience begging for a low-end tower. When I was 17 I also liked playing around with computer hardware. Then I got over it. If playing around with computer hardware is truly what you want to do, your best bet is to get a cheap PC and boot Linux. Again, the computer hardware enthusiast market is exceedingly small. You may be lead to believe otherwise from hanging around on web forums that are respositories for these folks, but the market here is indeed a small one.

To reiterate on final time, it's not that Apple can't compete in the low-end tower market. It's that the rewards are too small to warrant the development and operations burden of introducing and maintaining another product line. Please, please study your history. It's not just the cube.

Well considering Macs run Windows now, they are viable alternative for games. And don't tell me to buy a Windows box just to play games, because it's not really ethical.

You say you are ripping into people for being snobs, but frankly, that's a very arrogant statement to presume whether someone knows what to do with the power. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Not for being snobs. . . for being idiots. I never claimed that I wasn't arrogant, either.

To Logan: if you want to play the latest FPS games on Apple hardware, then you'll want nothing short of the latest Mac Pro. Most games, however, will run fine on an iMac. Really, you guys have to realize that the market for the computer you want is small unless the price is very low, in which case there's not a lot of incentive for Apple to get into that market.

I think we fail to remember the Mac Mini. People were screaming for it but most said Apple wouldnt do it because they fit a niche market and wouldnt be beneficial to make us a cheaper desktop...well that happened.

And Splinemodel, why do you persist in trying to tell us what we want or need when you have no idea. You have your outrageous claims that "no one really needs a lowend tower" but thats like a grumpy old man claiming that we don't need to drive cars around when driving is what most of us would rather do. Excuse me for the rediculous analogy...couldnt think fast enough

It's not like I want a tower to just go and take out my video card and get a new one or do this and that to it...but like i said, I am running a PowerMac G4 quicksilver which is 5 years old and I love the fact that I can go out and get a larger hard drive or a new video card or some pci cards to make my system not seem so obsolete...eventually I will have to go out and get a new computer and it would be incredible if i could just get a new tower to go right in the spot of my old one (but slightly smaller of course)!

Since you had to ask, I do this because we have so many damn threads about low-end mac towers, and aside from the naive thread starter, it's always the same group of people in the echo chamber. Since you're new here I can't blame you for being suspicious.

The other aspect is that I'm exclaiming my near-certainty that Apple will not product this machine anytime soon, so moaning about is going to do you no good. If you want to actually prove me wrong, however, I'll give you the chance to tell me what you want to do with a low-end tower that you can't do with an iMac. Saying "I want to swap components" isn't going to cut it. Swaping components for the sake of swapping components is a niche activity and an idiotic one at that. I'm happy to trust the "honor system" here. By lying about this you're not really changing anything except the perception of this thread, which ultimately doesn't mean that much to me.

My personal advice to you is one word: eBay. About every 18-24 months sell the old iMac on eBay and buy a new one. It's surprisingly economical.

Yea, it's only about, what... 20%? 30%? 40% of the PC market that Apple doesn't have? 95% of PCs sold are Windows, Apple wants a slice of that yet does not offer a consumer tower. Sure, the consumer tower has no market.

er, ummm, 17 year olds?

I'm not 17, will be 56 shortly, and $300 to $400 savings is important.

I have an iMac iSight 20" with a G5, and I still feel frustrated that I can't upgrade to 802.11n so I can use Apple's new AppleTV, without having to buy an Airport extreme. A slot would come in handy.

I will be upset when USB 3, a new Bluetooth standard, a new harddrive bus like SATA becomes common. Any arguments for an AIO other than it saves space is a total rationalization. Both the Mac mini and iMac are designed for niche markets, albeit well designed.

Neither of them offer the ease of use nor the flexibility of a standard tower or shuttle.

Last I looked there are a lot of PCI card manufacturers. Last I looked, PCI cards are even sold @ Walmart. Last I looked the PCI card industry in and of itself dwarfs Apples computer sales.

People don't swap components for the sake of swapping components. That has got to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.

Realistically, we're talking about a very small chunk. Not everyone who buys a low-end tower PC is interested in altering its components. I'd say that less than 2% of the PC market buys low-end towers with plans to modify them. Office buildings full of boilerplate PCs account for massive amounts of the overal market. The enthusiast market is quite small.

rickag: And which PCI cards do you need?


Anyway, I proposed a challenge to come up with real reasons why you need a low-end tower. So far, no real answers.

RAM And HD upgrades are common
also apple has no system with desktop parts right now.
The macpro uses high cost FB-DIMMs. And the mini is a low end system with POS gma 950 and laptop parts.

Right now, none, my iMac isn't that old.
Later, if I wish to join the rest of the world when 802.11n becomes common, one of those would be nice. So I wouldn't have to create more clutter with an Airport Extreme priced at close to $200.

In the next year or so when SATA becomes the standard and I'm still rendering/editing off my current internal drive with Final Cut Express, maybe I'd like to buy an inexpensive card to add an SATA drive to improve my speed.

Who knows? Technology changes a lot more rapidly than I and many other people are willing to spend ON A NEW COMPUTER to keep up when a relatively inexpensive PCI card will do.

Use your common sense. It is a relatively easy concept that on the other side has become a common practice, which is obviously proved by the shear extrodinarily numbers of PCI cards available for a huge variety of purposes. Google a couple of sites, here's just one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2+PCI+&x=0&y=0

there 6 pages of USB 2 PCI cards(some oddball stuff thrown in, but mostly PCI cards) and 106 options. SOMEONE IS BUYING THIS STUFF IN MASS QUANTITIES.

I agree, we find that more and more people can easily buy RAM and Hard Drives from dealram, NewEgg, or some mass online store like nexttag. This is especially handy when you look at how much Apple charges for upgraded built-to-order RAM and Hard Drives. You can save $300 or $400 just with that (depending on what you want in HD space and memory).


I will share my agreement with rickag as well. I have a 5 year old powermac with usb 1.1 ports...I would HAVE to purchase a new computer right now if it werent for pci slots...usb 1.1 is soooo slow! I have 2 of my slots filled right now with a usb 2.0 card and an extra firewire card!