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post #281 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilsch View Post

WTF's a "liberal fascist"??? I think we've had this conversation before.

I find it ludicrous that some people, a lot of texans apparently, believe more guns= less crime. Bizarro world man. I do agree with them somewhat when they say strict gun control may not(won't) work here in the US. The reason is simple. We should've banned guns a long time ago, but thanks to powerful lobbies like the NRA hidden behind the "constitutional right" argument, it has never come close to happening. Background checks? Don't make me laugh.

More guns will bring more crimes and the NRA Kool Aid™ drinkers will just keep saying that the real problem is that there aren't enough guns around. Pretty retarded vicious circle.

Try reading what I've been posting on this topic. You obviously have no idea.

Now, a liberal fascist: Someone who loudly trumpets liberal ideas and attacks anyone who dares disagree.
Example: Anyone who disagrees with 100mph on gun control is a "neanderthal" and should be silenced immediately. That's that fascism of the left.
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post #282 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilsch View Post

I also don't agree with comparing a "responsible citizen" with a cop. Give me a break. Speaking of Utopian.

At least we're in agreement here. Police around my city act as if they are above the law. I know of several police with highly questionable ethics.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #283 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Of course you should ask questions. As a matter of fact, one would never be able to tell who is lying or telling the truth on these boards, unless you yourself could independently verify it. In that sense, it might be irrational for me to defend a person I don't know, but then it could be just as valid to say that you were a complete jerk to someone whose family was nearly killed by a criminal.

Your arguments are extremely inconsistent. On one hand you say maybe you shouldn't defend someone you don't know, on the other you again call me a name because I'm assuming an ignorant(as in not knowing for a fact) posture. Not to mention you somehow confirming the event took place later in your post.
post #284 of 524
First the links;

FBI's Uniform Crime Reports Website

NRC's (NAP) Firearms and Violence:
A Critical Review [2005]


(Can be viewed per page online, but I wouldn't mind getting myself a PDF copy.)

Two links by Professor Jens Ludwig of Georgetown University;

Aiming for Evidence-Based Gun Policy [2006]

The Social Costs of Gun Ownership [2006]

(Both of these can be downloaded as PDF files.)

And finally, I'd strongly recommend viewing Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Whatever you think of him personally, the film does say a lot about the American gun culture.

As to my thoughts, I will try to be brief.

I abhor violence in any form (I think most of us (here) would agree on that one ), I don't feel threatened (in general), and I've never owned a gun (nor do I ever expect to). But if placed in a bona fide life threatening situation, and if I did possess a firearm, and had no other option, I'd like to think I'd use it, you know the self preservation argument. \

I could say a lot more about my few direct experiences with people of different social/ethnic demographics (my close friends, both well off and poor, both highly educated/uneducated) WRT firearms. But I won't.

I will say this though, that the inequalities in social, ethnic, cultural, economic, and educational areas has a lot to do with our current situation in the US. Perhaps this last statement is a no brainer, and can be extended to all people?

That is all.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #285 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Try reading what I've been posting on this topic. You obviously have no idea.

Now, a liberal fascist: Someone who loudly trumpets liberal ideas and attacks anyone who dares disagree.
Example: Anyone who disagrees with 100mph on gun control is a "neanderthal" and should be silenced immediately. That's that fascism of the left.

Only the first part of my post was addressed to you SDW (the asking what a liberal fascist is).
post #286 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

At least we're in agreement here. Police around my city act as if they are above the law. I know of several police with highly questionable ethics.

No, actually we're not in agreement there. Are you saying that we should arm "responsible citizens" because the cops are corrupt? \
post #287 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilsch View Post

Only the first part of my post was addressed to you SDW (the asking what a liberal fascist is).

OK. Fair enough. Now, do you agree that there is a such a thing as liberal fascism?
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post #288 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

OK. Fair enough. Now, do you agree that there is a such a thing as liberal fascism?

Do you agree that there are many different meanings to the word fascism?

We now return you to the Freedom of Speech...
post #289 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

OK. Fair enough. Now, do you agree that there is a such a thing as liberal fascism?

Looks like some maleducados didn't get the memo. They'll get a visit soon.

Black is white, white is black, you're a slave and slaves are free..........torture is love, murder is a helping hand and liberals are fascists.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #290 of 524
and someone questioned why this thread is in PO
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #291 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Anyone else want to take a stab for the "Ismail Ax" symbolism?

Ok, well as you insist...I'll take a stab and make some observations.

Here is my stab:

The name 'Ismail Ax' is an invention of our hysterically funny overlords and protectors 'Manipulate The Sheep Dept' - some moron on the junior staff couldn't get past Malcolm X and Muhammad was too obvious.

And here are my observations:

1) The idiot who wrote the article really can't even get some basic facts straight - maybe he was the originating source anyway?

2) Much as I would sympathize with anyone opposing capitalism, McDonalds and the usual soul-less US paradigm, having read the shooter's literary output I somehow don't see him as a Che Guevara type. Let alone anyone with a religious sensibility be it jihadi or otherwise.

The guy was a loon who couldn't get laid. It's that simple......

Which brings me to point 3)

3) Boys and girls, we face today a sick cancer......a pustulent virus that corrupts and debilitates. all that it touches.

We do not yet know the true nature of the disease - only that it is rampant and that those that have it become ever more convinced they are disease-free.

There is another symptom; and this is perhaps the sickest part - it causes the sufferers to make capital out of any tragedy. It removes all care for human life.

We saw it on 911 - when most people were shocked and grieving, reeling at the impact of the deaths, the modern lepers were rubbing their hands thinking 'how can we tie this to Iraq?'

And now they are here again - as a nation mourns, someone, somewhere has been busy cackling with glee as they falsify yet more data to target Muslims and prolong the war on Islam.

And the sheep will start their lapping right on Pavlovian cue - they have to - for the carriers of the disease are the doctors and the hospital is the leper colony.

Their one mission: find the unaffected and infect them.

Starting with Muslims.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #292 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

and someone questioned why this thread is in PO

Yeah, go figure!

But what really, Really, REALLY bothers me here (and PO threads in general)) is the binomial distribution (or bipolar) positioning that most here seem (or appear) to take.

All or nothing, take it or leave it, part of the process of debate? I don't know, but what I do know is that I don't like absolutes!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #293 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Looks like some maleducados didn't get the memo. They'll get a visit soon.

Black is white, white is black, you're a slave and slaves are free..........torture is love, murder is a helping hand and liberals are fascists.

Don't accuse me of some kind of newspeak and be on your way. Liberals are perfectly capable of being fascists.
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post #294 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok, well as you insist...I'll take a stab and make some observations.

Here is my stab:

The name 'Ismail Ax' is an invention of our hysterically funny overlords and protectors 'Manipulate The Sheep Dept' - some moron on the junior staff couldn't get past Malcolm X and Muhammad was too obvious.

And here are my observations:

1) The idiot who wrote the article really can't even get some basic facts straight - maybe he was the originating source anyway?

2) Much as I would sympathize with anyone opposing capitalism, McDonalds and the usual soul-less US paradigm, having read the shooter's literary output I somehow don't see him as a Che Guevara type. Let alone anyone with a religious sensibility be it jihadi or otherwise.

The guy was a loon who couldn't get laid. It's that simple......

Which brings me to point 3)

3) Boys and girls, we face today a sick cancer......a pustulent virus that corrupts and debilitates. all that it touches.

We do not yet know the true nature of the disease - only that it is rampant and that those that have it become ever more convinced they are disease-free.

There is another symptom; and this is perhaps the sickest part - it causes the sufferers to make capital out of any tragedy. It removes all care for human life.

We saw it on 911 - when most people were shocked and grieving, reeling at the impact of the deaths, the modern lepers were rubbing their hands thinking 'how can we tie this to Iraq?'

And now they are here again - as a nation mourns, someone, somewhere has been busy cackling with glee as they falsify yet more data to target Muslims and prolong the war on Islam.

And the sheep will start their lapping right on Pavlovian cue - they have to - for the carriers of the disease are the doctors and the hospital is the leper colony.

Their one mission: find the unaffected and infect them.

Starting with Muslims.




It didn't take you too long to mention 9/11 in there. I was waiting!
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post #295 of 524
Liberals can exhibit fascist behaviour...

Here are the common threads:
• Authoritarianism in certain aspects of control over people's individual lives.
• Individual interests are secondary to the need of the state.
• Support of corporatism, but to a lesser extent than the neocon right.
• Support of collectivism (in a BIG way)
• Central planning and massing of the power in the hands of the state.
• State-run economic policy, disdain for laissez-faire markets

Other than those huge common threads, they have absolutely NOTHING in common...

I'd say the liberal fascists in the US are closer to the German than to the Italian model.
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post #296 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok, well as you insist...I'll take a stab and make some observations.

Here is my stab:

The name 'Ismail Ax' is an invention of our hysterically funny overlords and protectors 'Manipulate The Sheep Dept' - some moron on the junior staff couldn't get past Malcolm X and Muhammad was too obvious.

And here are my observations:

1) The idiot who wrote the article really can't even get some basic facts straight - maybe he was the originating source anyway?

2) Much as I would sympathize with anyone opposing capitalism, McDonalds and the usual soul-less US paradigm, having read the shooter's literary output I somehow don't see him as a Che Guevara type. Let alone anyone with a religious sensibility be it jihadi or otherwise.

The guy was a loon who couldn't get laid. It's that simple......

Which brings me to point 3)

3) Boys and girls, we face today a sick cancer......a pustulent virus that corrupts and debilitates. all that it touches.

We do not yet know the true nature of the disease - only that it is rampant and that those that have it become ever more convinced they are disease-free.

There is another symptom; and this is perhaps the sickest part - it causes the sufferers to make capital out of any tragedy. It removes all care for human life.

We saw it on 911 - when most people were shocked and grieving, reeling at the impact of the deaths, the modern lepers were rubbing their hands thinking 'how can we tie this to Iraq?'

And now they are here again - as a nation mourns, someone, somewhere has been busy cackling with glee as they falsify yet more data to target Muslims and prolong the war on Islam.

And the sheep will start their lapping right on Pavlovian cue - they have to - for the carriers of the disease are the doctors and the hospital is the leper colony.

Their one mission: find the unaffected and infect them.

Starting with Muslims.

Good observation. I not thinking this cypher he wrote could be relevant to anything. I just wondered what his motivation was in doing so. You think it's merely another sign of interpretation shenanigans on the part of the blog writer (and maybe society in general?). But still, why did he write that, on his arm, in red magic marker?...
post #297 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok, well as you insist...I'll take a stab and make some observations.

Here is my stab:

The name 'Ismail Ax' is an invention of our hysterically funny overlords and protectors 'Manipulate The Sheep Dept' - some moron on the junior staff couldn't get past Malcolm X and Muhammad was too obvious.

And here are my observations:

1) The idiot who wrote the article really can't even get some basic facts straight - maybe he was the originating source anyway?

2) Much as I would sympathize with anyone opposing capitalism, McDonalds and the usual soul-less US paradigm, having read the shooter's literary output I somehow don't see him as a Che Guevara type. Let alone anyone with a religious sensibility be it jihadi or otherwise.

The guy was a loon who couldn't get laid. It's that simple......

Which brings me to point 3)

3) Boys and girls, we face today a sick cancer......a pustulent virus that corrupts and debilitates. all that it touches.

We do not yet know the true nature of the disease - only that it is rampant and that those that have it become ever more convinced they are disease-free.

There is another symptom; and this is perhaps the sickest part - it causes the sufferers to make capital out of any tragedy. It removes all care for human life.

We saw it on 911 - when most people were shocked and grieving, reeling at the impact of the deaths, the modern lepers were rubbing their hands thinking 'how can we tie this to Iraq?'

And now they are here again - as a nation mourns, someone, somewhere has been busy cackling with glee as they falsify yet more data to target Muslims and prolong the war on Islam.

And the sheep will start their lapping right on Pavlovian cue - they have to - for the carriers of the disease are the doctors and the hospital is the leper colony.

Their one mission: find the unaffected and infect them.

Starting with Muslims.

Come on seg,

All I see is Artman posting an observation (about one person's opinion), about an INDIVIDUAL'S behavior, something that may have framed that INDIVIDUAL'S mindset.

Stereotyping the situation to a general population is IMHO kinda pointless, and I don't think that was the original intent.

This INDIVIDUAL created this situation in in his own mind, and acted on those thoughts HIMSELF.

Sure there were externalities, his upbringing, social status, etceteras.

Let's stay focused on HIS problems and HIS actions (and what may have led to them), OK?
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post #298 of 524
Does this sound more liberal or conservative, as we know the terms today in the US?

Quote:
Consider 13 of the most relevant points from the Nazi Party's 25-point program of 1920, its Munich manifesto:

7. We demand that the State shall make it its first duty to promote the industry and livelihood of the citizens of the State.

10. The activities of the individual must not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the community and must be for the general good. (Restriction of inherent rights like the second amendment, et al)

11. Abolition of incomes unearned by work. Breaking of the thraldom of interest. (Elimination of Public Assistance)

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been amalgamated. (Healthcare anyone?)

14. We demand that there shall be profit sharing in the great industries. (Exxon, hand over those profits!)

15. We demand a generous development of provision for old age. (Socialist Ponzi Security)

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the confiscation without compensation of land for communal purposes, the abolition of interest on land mortgages, and prohibition of all speculation in land. (Environmentalist Land-grabs, et al)

18. We demand ruthless war upon all those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. (Party in power defines the "common interest")

20. The schools must aim at teaching the pupil to understand the idea of the State. We demand the education of specially gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State. (the fight FOR state schools over home or voucher schooling)

21. The State must apply itself to raising the standard of health in the nation ... (Taxing Transfat, Socializing Medicine)

23. We demand legal warfare against conscious political lies and their dissemination in the press. In order to facilitate the creation of a German national press…. It must be forbidden to publish newspapers which are damaging to the national welfare. (Censorship in all forms)

24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it. The Party ... does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. (the ACLU and libertarians do this too)

25. That all the foregoing requirements may be realized we demand the creation of a strong central national authority; unconditional authority of the central legislative body over the entire Reich and its organizations in general;(Extreme Top-down federalism, powerful central power in Washington)
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post #299 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Come on seg,

All I see is Artman posting an observation (about one person's opinion), about an INDIVIDUAL'S behavior, something that may have framed that INDIVIDUAL'S mindset.

Stereotyping the situation to a general population is IMHO kinda pointless, and I don't think that was the original intent.

This INDIVIDUAL created this situation in in his own mind, and acted on those thoughts HIMSELF.

Sure there were externalities, his upbringing, social status, etceteras.

Let's stay focused on HIS problems and HIS actions (and what may have led to them), OK?

Fair enough.

It seemed the article writer was trying to plug in to the 'evil Islam' meme though I could be wrong - it isn't very helpful though is it? I mean it could mean anything couldn't it?

This guy doesn't strike me as an Einstein so it's a pretty good bet there is nothing so earth-shatteringly significant behind it....he's not Zodiac or Son of Sam....the US media (well, world media to be fair) loves all that crap...the 'insane genius killer with an agenda' and it always involves some sort of code or cryptic stuff.

It's more than they deserve, all of them, none of these guys are 'geniuses' or 'glamorous/mysterious' - there is no mystery, they are just sick loons or losers who unfortunately didn't get the help they needed or weren't identified before they imploded.

Nothing interesting about them or anything they do...our fascination with them as 'types' is sad and unworthy.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #300 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Does this sound more liberal or conservative, as we know the terms today in the US?

Godwin's Law

Reductio ad Hitlerum

Reductio ad Jubelum? Where are you going with this?
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post #301 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Godwin's Law

Reductio ad Hitlerum

Reductio ad Jubelum? Where are you going with this?

There was a discussion on "liberal fascists" and if they exist. That's the deal-ee-oh.
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post #302 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

There was a discussion on "liberal fascists" and if they exist. That's the deal-ee-oh.

Quote:
Fascism [is] the complete opposite ofMarxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect.

Benito Mussolini.

The Guy who invented it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #303 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

There was a discussion on "liberal fascists" and if they exist. That's the deal-ee-oh.

You mean Fascist (epithet). or Fascism, or perhaps Jonah Goldberg's book?



But somehow, I like this term better, Conservative Fascism;

Quote:
''America is the greatest nation on earth!'' - Motto of Conservative Fascists

Conservative Fascism is an attempt by modern ideological politicians to convert fascism back to its oldschool form. They want to conserve this fascism and strengthen it.

Similar to oldschool fascists, Conservative Fascists support militarism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, and unilateralism. They support wasting tonnes of tax dollars on the military. In order to promote their ideology, they support strong state control over the media, so they formed the Fascist Oxymoronic Xenophobe (FOX) news network. Originally, the Conservative Facists exaggerated Islamic terrorism. Then they made up liberal terrorism. In fact, their propaganda pamphlets on liberal terror were so misinforming the IQ of their host nation (the US) dropped 80%. Here's the pamphlet.

Conservative Fascism began when several cryptofascists met up to form a secret elite group of the Republican Party, called the "Neoconservatives". George Bush II was the first Conservative Fascist dictator.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #304 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Does this sound more liberal or conservative, as we know the terms today in the US?

There's a reason that they were called the national socalist german worker's party. A good number were socialist leaning workers so these are largely socialist goals not fascists ones. The fascists got rid of the socialists on the night of the long knives by killing the top ranks of the SA and absorbing the rank and file over time.

So all you've shown is that (some) liberals and socialists have beliefs in common. Um...yes...I would say that you have mastered the obvious but failed history.

If you wish to ask whether liberals or conservatives are more prone to fascism...well I would suggest you compare the period Bush administration and Republican control vs that of the Clinton administration and Democratic control...

Vinea
post #305 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

and someone questioned why this thread is in PO

Once again for the reading challenged...
I questioned and found fault with this thread being in PO because it is an insult to those who died, suffered and were affected by this tragedy (physically or emotionally) to have a page of people expressing sympathies and then 7 pages of the typical uber nerd become political science expert bickering, bullshit, and insults.

The original thread should have been in AO and a seperate gun control thread should have been created.

You guys are heartless dicks, maybe it's because of your ages, or maybe it's because you don't get out much and your only form of socializing is through a faceless internet message board. Anyone who argues online the way some of you do should be just as suspect to be as crazy as this south korean kid as much as anyone else. Clearly many of you have personality deficiencies.

It's pathetic.

And that's why I questioned this thread being in PO.
post #306 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilsch View Post

You're just window dressing the argument. More guns= more "deterrents"=reduced crime. That's not different to what I said based on what others claimed. What's a responsible citizen by the way? Someone with no criminal background? Apparently the VT killer had that. I also don't agree with comparing a "responsible citizen" with a cop. Give me a break. Speaking of Utopian. A "responsible citizen" by the way, has the potential to fuck up an already bad situation...not to mention causing accidents.
Quite a contradiction there. The problem with "proliferation" is that there are indeed more guns available to end up in the wrong hands.

I disagree. If we look at what gun nuts tend to spout, then we do come up with some ridiculous nonsense tantamount to "More guns = less crime." That claim is patently absurd, and totally illogical. It is flawed because when dangerous people get weapons, threat increases. "More Guns = Less Crime" is a polarized and distorted version of a very legitimate argument. "More Guns = Less Crime" is used primarily by Anti-Gun nuts who want to exaggerate an opposing viewpoint and take it out of context in order to make it easier to refute. It is also used by Pro-Gun nuts when they get too emotional over the issue. Go read up on logical fallacies on Wikipedia to get an idea what I'm talking about.

As to the legitimate argument that underlies the distortion, please point out a flaw in it.

As to what the definition of responsible citizen is, I agree with you completely that absence of a criminal background does not equate to responsible citizen. I'm sure we've all met people of detestable morals, who actively violate laws, minor or otherwise, who simply haven't been caught yet. I'm also sure that we've all met people who, though they may be well intentioned, and free of any past crimes, are either too impulsive or too irresponsible to be trusted with weapons. Background checks are a minimum. If weapons are to be introduced to environments, such as a University, where the potential for misuse is elevated, then I'm sure everyone will agree that more scrutiny is necessary. You do not hire a crossing guard to guard a nuclear facility.

As to Utopia et al.: I have been a soldier. I have been a security guard. I have had authority, and I have known those with it. I tell you the truth: Authority corrupts, and police can, and do, screw up. Police are a necessary evil. They are people who have more rights than the people they are charged to protect. The same goes in the military. In the military, especially during military actions, soldiers can, and do, do things that they would serve prison sentences for if they were civilians. The majority of the time, they suffer no repercussions whatsoever. I was at Abu Graib. I know this from first hand experience. Argue against it if you will. Others will decide who is more credible. Please understand that when I say "responsible citizen" I most certainly do NOT apply that to everyone who does not disqualify. The difference between a responsible citizen and the average redneck is as stark as that between a doughnut eating security guard, and a SWAT team member. It is as important as the difference between a lowly Personnel Clerk, and a Special Forces soldier. Let me put it this way: I am talking about the kind of person whom you would trust to drive your child to school. Furthermore, I'm sure that you'd agree that if people are put in a situation where they can potentially cause harm, then additional training is called for. I am most certainly not suggesting that we trust our safety to Barney Gumble.

I would argue that a citizen, who has no more power, no more rights, than the rest of the population, will be MORE attentive to the rights of others. They will be MORE careful than police or military personnel who benefit from a limited amount of immunity. Being a member of "Us" the civilian will be far more cautious about violating others rights, for if he violates their rights, what protection is there for his own? It is plain self interest. As a member of the Police or of the military, you know that you have authority over "Them", the civilian populace. You know that your interests lie in protecting your fellow officers or soldiers, and in protecting the government, with far more immediacy than they lie in protecting the populace. Police are NOT saints. Police are not the answer. A structure supported from within will always be more stable than one supported only by outside influence. Please, please, please, concede that police are just as likely to make an error as civilians are. You will be very hard pressed to disprove it.

As to proliferation (and I'll go ahead and concede that that was a poor choice of words on my part), you are again settling on a logical fallacy. This time it's Post Hoc and petitio principii. It is erroneous to assume that increasing the number of people who are permitted to cary firearms will increase the number of firearms obtained by crazies. It is a false cause. To demonstrate why it is false, imagine that 100,000,000 citizens, all carefully screened to ensure (pretend that we can ensure this) that they are indeed responsible, are issued CPLs. Has the number of firearms available to crazies increased? No. No additional firearms have gone into circulation yet. Therefore, issuing CPLs cannot be the cause of increased availability to crazies. Lets go ahead and give each of these 100,000,000 people a handgun and stipulate that it be kept on their person at all times, and that it be rendered physically incapable of firing should anyone else try to use it. Has the number of firearms available to crazies increased? No. The only ones who have the firearms are the 100,000,000 trustworthy citizens. This leads us to the conclusion that it is not how many people are permitted to have firearms, nor how many firearms are in existence, but rather how well those who legally own those arms hang on to them. A crazy can obtain one of these firearms only by forcibly taking it, or stealing it, from one of the 100,000,000. Of course, I'd volunteer that anyone who looses his firearm needs to have his trustworthiness seriously reevaluated. My argument stands though that the simple existence of firearms does not mandate that crazies will get them. It is lack of proper control that leads to that. Those proverbial Texans you mentioned surely don't wish for crazies to get guns. Again, let me refer to the fact that unless disarmament is total and every firearm in existence is destroyed, firearms will still be available to those determined enough to either steal or make them, and the net result of that partial disarmament is that the populace will be more vulnerable to a prolonged attack.

Now lets stop with the excessive semantics arguments (more red herrings here) and start looking at the concepts. Lets all agree that we're willing to rephrase as necessary so as to keep the discussion intelligent.

Now, I've got calculus to do. No more posts from me until next month.
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #307 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Capitan View Post

Once again for the reading challenged...
I questioned and found fault with this thread being in PO because it is an insult to those who died, suffered and were affected by this tragedy (physically or emotionally) to have a page of people expressing sympathies and then 7 pages of the typical uber nerd become political science expert bickering, bullshit, and insults.

The original thread should have been in AO and a seperate gun control thread should have been created.

You guys are heartless dicks, maybe it's because of your ages, or maybe it's because you don't get out much and your only form of socializing is through a faceless internet message board. Anyone who argues online the way some of you do should be just as suspect to be as crazy as this south korean kid as much as anyone else. Clearly many of you have personality deficiencies.

It's pathetic.

And that's why I questioned this thread being in PO.

Well, you present a purely rational, logical, objective, and sane argument AND you did it sans name calling!

El Dumbo, get a clue, you of the total of 12 posts, don't understand PO at all!

People post here, usually starting with a factoid, of some form, with the intent of provoking debate, on the larger issues, surrounding said factoid.

And even if that wasn't the original intent, that's almost always what happens.

Duh!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #308 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Capitan View Post

Once again for the reading challenged...
I questioned and found fault with this thread being in PO because it is an insult to those who died, suffered and were affected by this tragedy (physically or emotionally) to have a page of people expressing sympathies and then 7 pages of the typical uber nerd become political science expert bickering, bullshit, and insults.

The original thread should have been in AO and a seperate gun control thread should have been created.

You guys are heartless dicks, maybe it's because of your ages, or maybe it's because you don't get out much and your only form of socializing is through a faceless internet message board. Anyone who argues online the way some of you do should be just as suspect to be as crazy as this south korean kid as much as anyone else. Clearly many of you have personality deficiencies.

It's pathetic.

And that's why I questioned this thread being in PO.



Thanks for questioning it.


And allow this heartless dick to humor you with a response:

This thread is resting just fine in PO because it's a topic based on the events of the shooting but which addresses a broad range of national policies; one of which being the gun issue. It is not limited to that one issue however.

Since when is it heartless to discuss political and legal ramifications of a tragedy after the fact?
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #309 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Capitan View Post

Once again for the reading challenged...
I questioned and found fault with this thread being in PO because it is an insult to those who died, suffered and were affected by this tragedy (physically or emotionally) to have a page of people expressing sympathies and then 7 pages of the typical uber nerd become political science expert bickering, bullshit, and insults.

The original thread should have been in AO and a seperate gun control thread should have been created.

You guys are heartless dicks, maybe it's because of your ages, or maybe it's because you don't get out much and your only form of socializing is through a faceless internet message board. Anyone who argues online the way some of you do should be just as suspect to be as crazy as this south korean kid as much as anyone else. Clearly many of you have personality deficiencies.

It's pathetic.

And that's why I questioned this thread being in PO.



Reading challenged my butt. Regardless of where this thread was posted ot would have gone the way it did.
"some catch on faster than others"
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post #310 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post


Lets go ahead and give each of these 100,000,000 people a handgun and stipulate that it be kept on their person at all times, and that it be rendered physically incapable of firing should anyone else try to use it. Has the number of firearms available to crazies increased? No.

Most of us being techies try to apply techie solutions to issues. Not that I disagree with this in this case but getting folks to trust guns with electronic locks not to malfunction when you need it will take work. But this is a minor nit.

Quote:
Now lets stop with the excessive semantics arguments (more red herrings here) and start looking at the concepts. Lets all agree that we're willing to rephrase as necessary so as to keep the discussion intelligent.

I think that folks looking for reasonable gun control end up between the folks that spout "more guns = less crime" and whatever the gun control slogan is and after running around in circle for a while give up.

Now almost all gun discussion is dominated by extremists on both ends who sabatoge any attempt at reasonableness because any reasonable outcome undermines their perceived influence.

My guess is that no one will discuss your points. No controversy...or not much anyway.

Vinea
post #311 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

I disagree. ... I am most certainly not suggesting that we trust our safety to Barney Gumble.

Not old enough to remember ?

Somehow, I wish our "protectors" were more like !
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #312 of 524
Back OT, it seems that the killer sent notes and a video to NBC News so I guess we will have to suffer a media circus around that little number any day now.......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #313 of 524
Has the Muslim connection made the MSM yet?

He died with the words 'Ismail Ax' written in red ink on the inside of one of his arms, leading to speculation that he may have been a Muslim. In Islamic lore, Ismail is a reference to the 'son of sacrifice'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1770&ito=1490
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post #314 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

Has the Muslim connection made the MSM yet?

No, not yet...they're still frantically editing the NBC tapes prior to tomorrow morning's news and there's a crack team of operatives working through the night Googling 'rent a Mullah' quotes to fill in the final pieces.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #315 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No, not yet...they're still frantically editing the NBC tapes prior to tomorrow morning's news and there's a crack team of operatives working through the night Googling 'rent a Mullah' quotes to fill in the final pieces.....

Errr, are you talking about this?...

Gunman contacted NBC News during massacre
Rambling communication, video being examined by FBI, network says


"Sometime after he killed two people in a Virginia university dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday.

Cho, 23, a senior English major at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, killed 32 people in two attacks Monday before taking his own life.

Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents beyond characterizing the material as disturbing. It included a written communication, photographs and video.

Brian Williams, anchor and managing editor of NBC Nightly News, said in a posting on the programs Daily Nightly blog that the communication was received earlier Wednesday. He described it as a very long multimedia manifesto.
The package, timestamped in the two-hour window between Monday's shootings, was sent to NBC News head Steve Capus.In an interview with MSNBC.com, Capus said Cho talks to the camera in the videos. In one instance, he makes a vague reference to the massacre, Capus said, and said, "This didn't have to happen.""The statement is hard to follow, kind of rambling. He speaks about hatred," Capus said, adding that it was "distrubring, very angry, profanity laced."Police said the development might be "a very new, critical component of this investigation.""We're in the process right now of attempting to analyze and evaluate its worth," said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police."

....
post #316 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No, not yet...they're still frantically editing the NBC tapes prior to tomorrow morning's news and there's a crack team of operatives working through the night Googling 'rent a Mullah' quotes to fill in the final pieces.....

'rent-a-Mullah' - damn you are one smart, funny bastard. Well said, and exactly what happens. I was recently in St. Louis and found the AP reporters looking for a few 'rent-a-kooks' on the street to speak for the entire Association, with no effort made to determine their association to the Association. It makes for great, predictable, and opinion-bending TV.

Though we often disagree, you get my respect for understanding the dynamics at play.

<raises evil fat-cat capitalist 3pm Martini glass>
"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #317 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Capitan View Post

You guys are heartless dicks, maybe it's because of your ages, or maybe it's because you don't get out much and your only form of socializing is through a faceless internet message board. Anyone who argues online the way some of you do should be just as suspect to be as crazy as this south korean kid as much as anyone else. Clearly many of you have personality deficiencies.

It's pathetic.

Oh, go eat a cat's watermelon.

<hears echoes of "this is the War Room, you can't fight in here">
"Stand Up for Chuck"
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"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #318 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

'rent-a-Mullah' - damn you are one smart, funny bastard. Well said, and exactly what happens. I was recently in St. Louis and found the AP reporters looking for a few 'rent-a-kooks' on the street to speak for the entire Association, with no effort made to determine their association to the Association. It makes for great, predictable, and opinion-bending TV.

Though we often disagree, you get my respect for understanding the dynamics at play.

<raises evil fat-cat capitalist 3pm Martini glass>

hehe thanks! I'll raise my Das Capital in reciprocation
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #319 of 524
I just heard that these videos and photos were sent during the second and third shootings - I was assuming they were sent before the start of it somehow.

That's weird shit.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #320 of 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Errr, are you talking about this?...

Gunman contacted NBC News during massacre
Rambling communication, video being examined by FBI, network says


"Sometime after he killed two people in a Virginia university dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday.

Cho, 23, a senior English major at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, killed 32 people in two attacks Monday before taking his own life.

Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents beyond characterizing the material as disturbing. It included a written communication, photographs and video.

Brian Williams, anchor and managing editor of NBC Nightly News, said in a posting on the programs Daily Nightly blog that the communication was received earlier Wednesday. He described it as a very long multimedia manifesto.
The package, timestamped in the two-hour window between Monday's shootings, was sent to NBC News head Steve Capus.In an interview with MSNBC.com, Capus said Cho talks to the camera in the videos. In one instance, he makes a vague reference to the massacre, Capus said, and said, "This didn't have to happen.""The statement is hard to follow, kind of rambling. He speaks about hatred," Capus said, adding that it was "distrubring, very angry, profanity laced."Police said the development might be "a very new, critical component of this investigation.""We're in the process right now of attempting to analyze and evaluate its worth," said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police."

....

I didn't see "Ismail Ax" in that report?

However, I did see it at Faux Noise;

'Question Mark' Killer Quietly Seethed With Rage

and the Daily Mail;

Massacre gunman's deadly infatuation with Emily

and the Chicago Tribune;

Danger signs festered below aloof surface (need to register)

and the New York Post;

KILLER PAID $571 TO TAKE 33 LIVES

Hmm, by my count that's a 4-0 MSM bias (I'll let you all figure out in which direction)!

BTW, I can find no direct reference to "Ismail Ax" at ap.org.

seg, unfortunately, you may be on to something!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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