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Positions on Guns in America - Page 4

Poll Results: How do you feel about guns in the US? (click all that apply)

Poll expired: May 12, 2007 This is a multiple choice poll
  • 19% (38)
    It is too easy to buy a gun in the US.
  • 3% (6)
    The proper systems are in place to control guns.
  • 6% (12)
    Gun control laws already go too far.
  • 7% (15)
    Guns save lives.
  • 14% (28)
    Guns are dangerous and should be strictly controlled.
  • 10% (21)
    Guns are a menace and should be banned.
  • 4% (9)
    The 2nd Amendment is sacrosanct (assuming it allows possession).
  • 13% (26)
    The 2nd Amendment is out of touch with modern America (assuming the same)
  • 3% (7)
    College student should have the right to protect themselves with guns
  • 17% (34)
    College campuses are no place for weapons
196 Total Votes  
post #121 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

And if you look at that animation, see Vermont? NO gun laws there, green from the get go! Homicide rate? Somewhere in the mid-40's (ranked highest to lowest) for the 50 states + DC!

And Vermont was the state I was born and raised up in, spent my first ~30 years there, in fact.

Vermont had a grand total of 8 homicides in 2005 for a 1.3 per 100,000 rate
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_05.html
Population isn't that big, but 8 just isn't a very big number (any number greater than 0 is too high). I'm sure that for certain areas in other states there are far higher rates as well as far lower rates. No data is kept on demographics of mostly-(non-)gun-owning neighborhoods and crime rates.

Sadly, no details as to who commited the homicides (ie, whether the perpetrators were VT residents or not) nor whether they were multiple or single murders. Nor is there any data on potential violent crimes prevented by gun use by a victim or witness. What about gun-ownership in VT?

 

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post #122 of 367
Mexican citizens are forbid from owning guns. Mexico is a very safe country with little crime of any kind.
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post #123 of 367
Thread Starter 
Some wish to show a relationship between crime prevention and gun ownership. Japanese people don't have guns, but the crime rate is very low compared to the US.

Data From http://www.nationmaster.com

USA
Total crimes: 23,677,800
(per capita): 80.0645 per 1,000 people
Murders: 12,658
(per capita): 0.042802 per 1,000 people
Murders committed by youths: 8,226
Murders committed by youths per capita: 11
Murders with firearms: 8,259
(per capita): 0.0279271 per 1,000 people

Japan
Total crimes: 2,443,470
(per capita): 19.177 per 1,000 people
Murders: 637
(per capita): 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
Murders committed by youths: 127
Murders committed by youths per capita: 0.4

There must be other reasons than gun ownership for a low crime rate.

Also, the number of murders by youths in the US is 65% of the total; what is the problem with American youth?

 

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post #124 of 367
Maybe they got it out of their systems slaughtering Chinese and Koreans during WWII
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post #125 of 367
or perhaps the demographic and geographic differences make a comparison between the US and Japan meaningless.
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post #126 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

Maybe they got it out of their systems slaughtering Chinese and Koreans during WWII

And the Americans didn't by destroying entire cities full of women, children and the elderly in both Japan and Germany? Not to mention slaughtering themselves in the Civil War?

 

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post #127 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

or perhaps the demographic and geographic differences make a comparison between the US and Japan meaningless.

This is a slightly better idea. Care to elaborate?

 

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post #128 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

And the Americans didn't by destroying entire cities full of women, children and the elderly in both Japan and Germany? Not to mention slaughtering themselves in the Civil War?

I have always thought that a strong letter from the allies would have brought the Japanese and Nazi slaughter campaigns to an end.
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post #129 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

I have always thought that a strong letter from the allies would have brought the Japanese and Nazi slaughter campaigns to an end.

You are changing the topic.

 

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post #130 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

You are changing the topic.

No, I am having 2 conversations at once.
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post #131 of 367
Thread Starter 
Regardless of the rationale behind the various slaughters, why, in your opinion, would one nation have gotten it out of their system when another did not? Does not the US's slaughters lower its moral position to that which it accused Japan and Germany of operating at (killing non-combatants just because they are there)?

What about the deaths of thousands of Iraqis due to a mis-guided war for false reasons? (Oh, and the slaughter of the retreating Iraqui army from Kuwait during GW 1).

When will Americans tire of killing people?

What makes Americans so violent? Please, for the benefit of all, explain the demographics and geography that explain the high rate of violent crime in America.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #132 of 367
Thread Starter 
More crime stats (from nationmaster):

(rates per 100,000)

Rape: US #9 (0.301318), Japan #54 (0.017737) = 16X
Assault: US #6 (7.56923, Japan #43 (0.339272) = 22X
Robbery: US #11 (1.38527), Japan #57 (0.040599) = 34X
Car theft: US#9 (3.8795), Japan #14 (2.43012) --- 1.6X (J rate is increasing) (Japanese cars are stolen and sent to UK, Russia and Australia with false papers)

http://www.jama.org/autoTrends/detailad4a.html?id=229

Suicide, while not a crime, is also a very interest statistic. In all age groups except 15-24 and 25-34, Japan is higher than the US. Finland and Germany are very high; any reasons?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

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post #133 of 367
We are a huge country with open borders. Our criminal justice system has been castrated by politically correct utopians. We refuse to demand excellence from our people and tolerate an enormous cancerous welfare population. We allow Latin American criminals to wonder in and out of our country at will. Most importantly, we have lost our sense of personal responsibility.

Theses are our problems. They wont be fixed by gun laws.
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post #134 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

We are a huge country with open borders. Our criminal justice system has been castrated by politically correct utopians. We refuse to demand excellence from our people and tolerate an enormous cancerous welfare population. We allow Latin American criminals to wonder in and out of our country at will. Most importantly, we have lost our sense of personal responsibility.

Theses are our problems. They won’t be fixed by gun laws.

Well said. How about we control and punish CRIMINALS, no the rest of us law-abiding people?
Project Exile was a great start... actually sending felons in possession of a firearm to PRISON where they belong. Imagine that- PUNISHING criminals! Oi, the pain!

It's time to have a 5-year mandatory for any felon found in possession of a gun. Hows about all of youse anti-gunners enforce penalties, not just kneejerk for new (and sure to be ignored like existing) legislation? It leads me to think that you don't want to solve the problem, rather being focused on infringing on the rights of your fellow citizens.

Its much like the debate on illegal immigration. If we would simply enforce the law of the land, and stop making political hay for more laws, we'd be much better off.
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post #135 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

Mexican citizens are forbid from owning guns. Mexico is a very safe country with little crime of any kind.

Yep, it's so safe that it's on the State Dept Travel Advisory list.

THIS is an excellent example of what happens when only the criminals and the government have guns. Mass corruption, and crime waves in most major cities in the country. But, why learn from someone else when we can fsck it up and learn for ourselves?
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post #136 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

l; what is the problem with American youth?

That's a whole 'nother thread. Let's see... lack of work ethic, self-centeredness greater than their "Me Generation" boomer parents, Grand Theft Auto, a culture swimming in violence as entertainment, a lack of respect for life in all forms... from the euthanasia to abortion..., the breakdown in the nuclear family, decreases in civic participation, lack of organic solidarity, the Internet isolation and lack of interpersonal skills, substance abuse, George Bush, a lack of Jesus in the schools and fear over global warming and the Roswell conspiracy.




And that is what immediately comes to mind as arguments I have heard since lunch.
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post #137 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Well said. How about we control and punish CRIMINALS, no the rest of us law-abiding people?

Because laws legalizing gun ownership cause more deaths than laws banning guns.

So the argument goes.
post #138 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Because laws legalizing gun ownership cause more deaths than laws banning guns.

So the argument goes.

I don't buy that argument. Switzerland is safer than DC.
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post #139 of 367
Thread Starter 
I can agree on many of your points, namely the Roswell Conspiracy, but: Jesus in the schools? Are you forgetting the children of the 1.5 million Muslims, 1.5 million Buddhists, 1 million Agnostics, 1 million Atheists, 1 million Hindus and the 38.9 million non-religious who are Americans as well? You aren't going to force them to study about Jesus, are you? Intolerance is one of the breeding grounds of unrest.

Alas, this is food for another thread...

The problem is that these kids are going to get older, and they are going to reproduce... but what are the reproductions going to be like? Hopefully not even worse. What woudl that do for the crime rate in the US?

 

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post #140 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I can agree on many of your points, namely the Roswell Conspiracy, but: Jesus in the schools? Are you forgetting the children of the 1.5 million Muslims, 1.5 million Buddhists, 1 million Agnostics, 1 million Atheists, 1 million Hindus and the 38.9 million non-religious are Americans as well? You aren't going to force them to study about Jesus, are you? Intolerance is one of the breeding grounds of unrest.

Alas, this is food for another thread...

It wasn't my idea... just one I have heard in the past few days. Religion of ANY kind is best kept out of schools on the official level, though no law should be made to stop the free exercise of religion by students. It's not the job of the school to do religious education. Only for historical reference, IMHO.
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post #141 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

Mexican citizens are forbid from owning guns. Mexico is a very safe country with little crime of any kind.

You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #142 of 367
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post #143 of 367
Thread Starter 
Wherefore the watermelon?

 

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post #144 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Wherefore the watermelon?

That's the cat's watermelon. Just thought they should go together...
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post #145 of 367
Thread Starter 
It's 6am and I haven't sleep a wink and have to be at work in about 2 hours... so I'll just say, OK.

 

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post #146 of 367
Staying up all night on the internet is a dangerous addiction. Seek help immediately..
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post #147 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post


--------------------------------------------------------------------

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post #148 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Because laws legalizing gun ownership cause more deaths than laws banning guns.

So the argument goes.

We do not have the mechanisms in place to enforce any meaningful gun ban nor can we put them in place without major changes in our civil rights. A gun ban must be 99% effective or it is worthless. Theoretical arguments don't matter. If the solution can not be effectively implemented, it is not a solution.
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post #149 of 367
Thread Starter 
How about building walls around neighborhoods in the US like the US military is doing in Iraq (obviously with the approval of the WH)?

---

It is a difficult situation the US is in, and there won't be an easy answer. I, for one, do not think gunownership is it.

 

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post #150 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

How about building walls around neighborhoods in the US like the US military is doing in Iraq (obviously with the approval of the WH)?

---

It is a difficult situation the US is in, and there won't be an easy answer. I, for one, do not think gunownership is it.



You mean like this?

Private, not 'Big Gummint', but the intent is the same...
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post #151 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post



You mean like this?

Private, not 'Big Gummint', but the intent is the same...

yep. Those that can afford to keep "them" out "there" can pay for the luxury of security. Everyone deserves security, and I don't mean waiting 20 minutes for the police to show up.
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post #152 of 367
Apparently, Cho hired an escort prior to the incident, and nothing, uh, "stuck out"...
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post #153 of 367
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post #154 of 367
That about sums it up...
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #155 of 367
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

yep. Those that can afford to keep "them" out "there" can pay for the luxury of security. Everyone deserves security, and I don't mean waiting 20 minutes for the police to show up.

What about those who can't afford to buy the gun you think they need, not to mention pay for the training course? When I was in the States, I knew many families that were struggling just to get by, and if they had an extra $10 or so, the older kids got new shoes; of course, the younger ones lived on hand-me-downs and never wore anything new until they were the same size as their elder siblings. Dinner at a restaurant or even a trip to the movie theater? Not an option. Insurance? Again, not an option; only the very basics. If they were to invest the several hundred or more that it would cost to get your gun and training, the risk to their lives would increase many fold because of what it would prevent: good health, a little bit of fun (goes a long way towards keeping kids out of trouble), help with education, clothes, a decent home.

So, like in the photo above, some people can afford protection. Unfortunately, many, many cannot. Poverty in 2004 was a whopping 12.7%, and those without health insurance stood at 15.7%. Cho's Glock ran $571 with some ammunition; not a figure that a poor family can afford.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...th/005647.html

What would you propose they should do? Pray?

 

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post #156 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

What about those who can't afford to buy the gun you think they need, not to mention pay for the training course? When I was in the States, I knew many families that were struggling just to get by, and if they had an extra $10 or so, the older kids got new shoes; of course, the younger ones lived on hand-me-downs and never wore anything new until they were the same size as their elder siblings. Dinner at a restaurant or even a trip to the movie theater? Not an option. Insurance? Again, not an option; only the very basics. If they were to invest the several hundred or more that it would cost to get your gun and training, the risk to their lives would increase many fold because of what it would prevent: good health, a little bit of fun (goes a long way towards keeping kids out of trouble), help with education, clothes, a decent home.

So, like in the photo above, some people can afford protection. Unfortunately, many, many cannot. Poverty in 2004 was a whopping 12.7%, and those without health insurance stood at 15.7%. Cho's Glock ran $571 with some ammunition; not a figure that a poor family can afford.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...th/005647.html

What would you propose they should do? Pray?

A handgun is cheaper than a home in a gated community, about 1/200th the cost, or less. Or if you prefer, we can have the government subsidize or give everyone a gun, like they do in Switzerland. Without guns, ALL of us can pray when someone kicks in our door.
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post #157 of 367
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Very highly trained and well-armed members of the US military: 9 killed by car bomb.

Guns... training...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

 

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post #158 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Very highly trained and well-armed members of the US military: 9 killed by car bomb.

Guns... training...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

point....??? It was a CAR BOMB, not friendly fire or a gun battle.
We don't generally have car bombs as random acts in the US.

"Highly trained and well-armed US soldiers killed by Atomic Weapon. Atomic weapons to be banned. Film at 11... "
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post #159 of 367
Thread Starter 
A question:

Crime resolution increased dramatically in the UK after the installation of tons of surveillance cameras. What about any impact of the crime rate? What is the current situation with cams in the US? Modern cams are cheap and can be wireless, allowing for cheap installation and upkeep.

 

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post #160 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

A question:

Crime resolution increased dramatically in the UK after the installation of tons of surveillance cameras. What about any impact of the crime rate? What is the current situation with cams in the US? Modern cams are cheap and can be wireless, allowing for cheap installation and upkeep.

A response... that is a police surveillance state. Both the ACLU and us "wingers" (as anyone right of Leiberman get labeled) would be against that. Of course, if you can create enough fear, the sheep will accept almost any taking of their privacy and rights... Just look at PATRIOT.
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