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post #81 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

No, you're quite right, it's much more rational to consider the human bloodline being contaminated by angels.

You have no idea how much work it took to come up with an explanation of the Genesis events that was on the same level of crazy as Marc and Segovius. I could at least get props for that.

Seriously, Genesis kicks off the human race by stating that the Lord pulled part of Adam out and used it to create Eve. Surely if you can get past that, there's little need for answers to questions like "What did the Anteater eat?" There are a billion ways an all-powerful God, who created everything in the first place, could have pulled this off.

One of the maddening things about Scripture is that sometimes it gives only as much information as one needs to know, and doesn't go into detail into things that distract from the main point the text is trying to convey.

It's almost like the Bible expects the reader to learn to trust God along the way.
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post #82 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

Well, people discuss sci-fi books and movies all the time with the upmost seriousness. Why not the Bible, even if just academically.

Heh. Very interesting a parallel you draw. ... Pretty much eg. Alien, Predator, Star Trek and Star Wars, from what I see, people get pretty heavy into the "Universes" and "Alternate Universes" and how these are constructed.

I guess with the Bible, the discussion is centered around "Our" Universe.

Frank's DNA theory is interesting. It however raises some serious problems with Genesis?. If you believe in bloodlines and DNA, then you have to give evolution some thought. But I suppose DNA is covered by "intelligent design" theory, and very interventionist aspects of God's actions in the human/ physical/ earthly realm. (?)
post #83 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

...There are a billion ways an all-powerful God, who created everything in the first place, could have pulled this off...

Bingo. Intelligent Design and "God did everything" covers all explanations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

....One of the maddening things about Scripture is that sometimes it gives only as much information as one needs to know, and doesn't go into detail into things that distract from the main point the text is trying to convey....It's almost like the Bible expects the reader to learn to trust God along the way.

I could say that about any Book or Person or Whatever that claims to be the Word of God.

But indeed our Trust is something that needs cultivation no matter what we believe.

So it comes down to faith. And faith = belief and = trust in yourself about what *one believes to be true*.

Then the 5th meaning of the Flood could be that the message is, whatever the stories are in the Old/New Testament, it is about learning to trust God? ....???
post #84 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

It's almost like the Bible expects the reader to learn to trust God along the way.

Or doubt it more and more because it has so many hole in it.

If this God was so powerful that he could create everything in six days, then it would not have taken months to destroy only the surface. It would have taken a day or less. He could have put all the "good" living things in a force field, wiped out everything and then released the force field after first regenerating all the crops needed for life.

Also, why was this God only active at that time? What about now, with all the sin we have around us? Is another flood coming?

I guess I can't join the NAC club, so I'll just be a plain old cuckoo.

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #85 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Seriously, Genesis kicks off the human race by stating that the Lord pulled part of Adam out and used it to create Eve.

Actually it kicks off by contradicting itself (again) and stating that God created man and woman at the same time.

The second creation story in Genesis 2 (which is held to be a retelling of a very much older myth than the opening Genesis account) contradicts this by claiming God create Adam alone and Eve later on as a 'helper'.

The contradiction is interesting not only for its being evidence of tampering - albeit at a very early stage of the Book's development - but also it clearly shows the two conflicting attitudes that still tear and divide Christianity and Judaism from within; equality versus patriarchy or - if you prefer - liberality and tolerance versus right-wing subjugation.

Interesting link on this stuff here.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #86 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Add me to the NAC crowd. I think I'm more in line with MarkUK's thinking, though I say I pity the fundie xians rather than merely hate them... and Sego's obviously the most knowledgable on the subject.

But Sego is Agnostic while Marc and I are Atheist... correct me if I'm wrong, guys.

stand corrected! but dont ask!
post #87 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

stand corrected! but dont ask!

Yes, I second that...don't ask

Also I thought it was pretty obvious I am a militant Islamist of sorts.....maybe I am appearing to moderate in my views around here...might fix that....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #88 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


What is Nephilim?

An example of 4000 year old Jewish apartheid and racism
post #89 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Actually it kicks off by contradicting itself (again) and stating that God created man and woman at the same time.

The second creation story in Genesis 2 (which is held to be a retelling of a very much older myth than the opening Genesis account) contradicts this by claiming God create Adam alone and Eve later on as a 'helper'.

The contradiction is interesting not only for its being evidence of tampering - albeit at a very early stage of the Book's development - but also it clearly shows the two conflicting attitudes that still tear and divide Christianity and Judaism from within; equality versus patriarchy or - if you prefer - liberality and tolerance versus right-wing subjugation.

Interesting link on this stuff here.

Both accounts have the Woman being created on Day Six, the second account simply goes into more detail. Where do you see otherwise?

But let's humour your constant "the Bible was edited" suggestion. I see you covered yourself nicely by saying it took place "at a very early stage of the Book's development."

However, that's still nonsense. Just about every scholar on the planet will agree with the fact that there was no "equality versus patriarchy" debate in the earliest stages of the Bible's history. Genesis was written in a very patriarchical culture, end of story.

As always, you are superimposing your own culture and ideas on a text where they are clearly not stated or implied. Your last paragraph exposes this bias for all the (created) world to see.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #90 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Just about every scholar on the planet will agree with the fact that there was no "equality versus patriarchy" debate in the earliest stages of the Bible's history. Genesis was written in a very patriarchical culture, end of story.

Just about every scholar - and most sincere theologians (note I do not include fundies here) - accept the two creation stories exist. Which is good because it shows they can read and understand their source material.

Re the 'debate' - I do not say there was a debate over patriarchy or its opposite at the time in question. That would be stupid - especialy as the Marxist/feminist/Freudian insights which are the source of our understanding of this issue are a result of intellectual evolution which was 5000 years away from that time.

What I am saying is more this; that regardless of it being seen for what it was at the time, Patriarchal Oppression as practiced by the Israelites existed and was an inherent part of the religious paradigm.

Although it could not be quantified in an intellectual sense it could still be opposed - the Midianites who were slaughtered in their tens of thousands for example probably opposed the action rather than embarcing it unquestioningly. In the final minutes before they were hacked to death anyway.

So all I am saying is that opposition existed at that time. Some of that opposition was from peoples who were more tolerant and liberal.

As ever, when a tolerant liberal society is attacked by an extreme intolerant one then the latter wins. ANd then they get to (re) write the history books. And after millennia - they get followers and supporters who believe their version.

You for example.

That is why Spain is today Catholic and the Jews, Muslims and (tolerant) Christians who lived in peace there for 800 years were massacred and removed. And why everyone thinks the people who did the massacring (ie the Church) are the apotheosis of 'good' and those that were massacred by the thousand (Muslims and Jews) are 'evil'.

That's how it works.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #91 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So all I am saying is that opposition existed at that time. Some of that opposition was from peoples who were more tolerant and liberal.

As ever, when a tolerant liberal society is attacked by an extreme intolerant one then the latter wins. ANd then they get to (re) write the history books. And after millennia - they get followers and supporters who believe their version.

You for example.

You are saying that the Creation account in Genesis was edited by someone on the distant past because they thought the initial version was too "tolerant and liberal."

All I am asking for is some kind of proof of that. Any proof at all.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #92 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

You are saying that the Creation account in Genesis was edited by someone on the distant past because they thought the initial version was too "tolerant and liberal."

All I am asking for is some kind of proof of that. Any proof at all.

Ok, let's get this straight. I will clarify again and then you can ask for proof again. Then I will provide it.

What I am saying is this:

Many competing ideologies existed at the time under consideration. We know mainly of the successful ones.

One of these was the Patriarchal 'Jehovah-kill' paradigm of the Israelites.

Opposing this were other religious frameworks. Some of these were non-Patriarchal and more tolerant. They conceived of many Gods as opposed to One for example. They allowed freedom of sex as opposed to restrictions for example. They did not impose restrictions on food-stuffs etc, etc...

When the Israelite framework gained dominance - through a genocidal program - it incorporated and adjusted the teachings of the defeated religions into its own mythos.

All religions do this...it is why the God Baal became the devil Beelzebub. It is why Mosques were turned ino Churches in Spain and why Churches in Britian were always situated on pagan sites and incorporated pagan fertility symbols as well as why the Mother Goddess was transposed to Mary and Jesus drew on Mithras.

It is policy and sound psychology; don't oppose other religions (well, kill as many as you can but you can never get them all) but incorporate them.

The current generation will believe the old ways but in a century or so no-one will ever know any other religion existed or where the Church's teaching really came from and how it got there.......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #93 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

One of these was the Patriarchal 'Jehovah-kill' paradigm of the Israelites.

Nobody gets killed in Genesis 2. You said that Genesis 2 contained a contradiction that showed evidence of tampering "at a very early stage of the Book's development".

You then said that the text was tampered with because of a conflict of "equality versus patriarchy or - if you prefer - liberality and tolerance versus right-wing subjugation."

Again, I am just asking for the evidence you say you have of this tampering.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #94 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Nobody gets killed in Genesis 2. You said that Genesis 2 contained a contradiction that showed evidence of tampering "at a very early stage of the Book's development".

You then said that the text was tampered with because of a conflict of "equality versus patriarchy or - if you prefer - liberality and tolerance versus right-wing subjugation."

Again, I am just asking for the evidence you say you have of this tampering.

Ok, my proposition is that if you can show tampering ANYWHERE in the Bible then it qualifies as the Book is claimed to be a coherent whole.

If you want to pare it down to an exact passage then why not just pare it down to an exact word?

You could even put some words in yourself in big blue ink - something like "Jesus said Segovius will burn in hell forever with demons shoving pitchforks up his harris" - and then when I question whether it is an interpolation ask me to prove the words "Jesus said" do not occur in the original Bible.

Also there is the issue of what you regard as 'proof'... I am pretty confident that if the Archangel Gabriel appeared to you personally and berated you for ten hours showing you where exactly you had gone wrong and wheeled out Moses, Abraham and nebuchadnezzar as material witnesses then you would claim it was 'Satan in disguise' or just a question of semantics.

However, proof there be for him who has ears to hear.....

You will need to be familiar with the relevant academic research and I will not - for reasons that should be obvious - waste an hour or so typing an outline in this post. Instead I will reference two links that succinctly address the issue - feel free to ask specific questions and we can discuss.

Quote:
Although Moses has traditionally been considered the author of Genesis, modern scholars generally agree that the book is a composite of at least three different literary strands: J (10th century BC), E (9th century), and P (5th century). The interpretation of the book has led to many controversies. One of the most difficult problems has been distinguishing historical fact from symbolic narration intended to convey a religious message.

Linky #1

Quote:
According to Jewish and Christian tradition, the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) were written by Moses under the inspiration of God. God inspired Moses to write the truth and prevented him from making any errors. Many conservative Christians and Jews continue with this belief. However, mainline and liberal theologians generally accept the "Documentary Hypothesis" which asserts that the Pentateuch was written by a group of authors, from diverse locations in Palestine, over a period of centuries. Each wrote with the goal of promoting his/her own religious views:

J: a writer who used Yahweh/Jehovah as the divine name.
E: a writer who used Elohim as the divine name. *
P: a writer who added material of major interest to the priesthood.
D: the author of the book of Deuteronomy. *
R: a redactor who welded the contributions of J, E and P together into the present Pentateuch.

* Not present in Genesis.

The authors of Genesis seem have picked up part of their story from Hindu legends of the creation and early history of humanity. Stories of Hindu heros Adimo, Heva, Sherma,, Hama and Jiapheta apparently were replicated into legends about Adam, Eve, Shem Ham, and Japeth

Linky #2
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #95 of 104
Segovius is on a roll here.
post #96 of 104
OK. I have read Genesis 1 and 2 now.

Genesis 1 is in my view very clearly a more Pagan-oriented view of heaven, earth, night, day and coming to some sort of understanding of explaining why things are. To take "day" as in a 24-hour period and any other literal interpretation is pretty senseless, since before God made night and day, what is Day One? A 24-hour period? ...So of course Day 1, 2, etc. must be some abstract time period.

That it does have meaning, yes, meaning can be interpreted from it. Various theories could be, God is our Self that has created this "illusion" of night/day heaven/earth in our "separation" from God. Or, less radical, is simply, well, a realisation that we currently live in a world where there seems to be a continuous opposition of two different points, good/evil, night/day, man/woman, etc.

Genesis 2 is more "problematic" in the sense at it refers specifically to locations, and the union of man and woman. That it is taken literally would be more relevant in the few hundred years (?) around the time it was written as a way of documenting/ preaching/ consolidating the culture of the time. Who the frack cares, in this day and age, whether Ethiopia over there has gold, or there is Eden in *that* particular location of the Earth where the rivers meet or whatever the frack ever.

That it does have meaning, yes, meaning can be interpreted from it. This would require more complex/ abstract thought about "rib/part of Man" and "Woman as companion", "Gold" to the West, "Rivers Meeting" and so on.
post #97 of 104
Thread Starter 
When I started this thread I had no idea what it was going to evolve into.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #98 of 104
Again, I am not slamming the Bible outright here just because Genesis 1 and 2 seems to not make sense to me. As a whole, or maybe in certain passages, parts that one has read, that it is significant as a Spiritual Text of some sort, I am Happy that people learn and get to experience Divinity in various means.

It *is* in this day and age pretty bloody cryptic though, in my view, and what with the Judaeo-Christian split through Old and New Testament and the "conflicting views" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

You might as well take other texts, and believe what you want to believe.

I don't think modern Christianity is actually strongly based on the Bible. It is based on Church doctrine and interpretation of Protestant/Catholic leaders... Historical and current doctrines, interpretations. Christianity appears to be more a "momentum" of spiritual movements "based" on the Bible, but any full reading and understanding of it would take years and years of research, reflecting on what it is trying to say, etc, etc. Jesus and his Disciples and who said what and what Jesus said and did, is also highly complex, given that the New Testament is pretty much an effort to document Jesus' teachings in the few hundred years **following** his death/ resurrection/ whatever...
post #99 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

When I started this thread I had no idea what it was going to evolve into.

Oh, don't be coy. Heh....
...Creationism/Evolution is one of the hottest topics in Theology today. ...Noah and the Flood is pretty tied up in the mess.
post #100 of 104
Thread Starter 
You are not offending me in the slightest... my family left the church many years ago because things were, well, not that believeable and there were too many people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell running around creating a ruckus.

I now live in Japan, where many people follow (?) many religions, in a sense. Weddings are shinto and Christian (often one followed by the other), funerals are often Buddhist. They sort of pick and choose whatever religion suits the occasion best, which one shinto priest actually said was possibly the truest form of religion.

Though given a bad rep during WWII by a few madmen, and a lack of understanding of it is currently causing a debate about Yasukuni shringe, shinto is actually quite interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #101 of 104
There are some more serious problems with the Biblical narrative....

According to Genesis the flood would have taken place about 1656 years after the creation of Adam - and 292 years before the birth of Abraham.

Quote:
A reckoning of the date of the flood depends on the year of the birth of Abraham. If one selects the late date for the birth of Abraham at ca. 1955 B.C. and adds the 292 years from his birth to the flood according to the Hebrew text (MT), the flood would have occurred at ca. 2247 B.C. But if one follows the MT and calculates the birth of Abraham at ca. 2170 B.C., then the flood would have occurred in ca. 2462 B.C

Biblical Timeline

Ok. So far so banal. But here is the problem:

The flood occurred then somewhere between 2247 BC and 2462 BC.

This would span the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th Egyptian Dynasties and the Third Babylonian Dynasty.

But we know from archaeology that all these dynasties existed in an onging unbroken line with no interruption by a flod or anything else. there is a clear line f succession with NO BREAKS.

Hence the flood was local, the Biblical timeline is false or it simply did not happen.

Take your pick. There are no other options.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #102 of 104
I found this site interesting. Briefly discusses the differences in Bible versions and translations.

Quote:
The contents of "the Bible" are different in different religions. Different numbers of books are included, or the books are included in different order. In addition, there are many different translations of the Bible, some of which are considered authoritative by some religions.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #103 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

And we know this because we have made historic discoveries that show the Bible's historic statements to be false.

For example, Luke's Gospel states that Herod was 'King of Judea' during the time that Qurinius was governor of Syria. We know now as an absolute fact from historical records that Herod died 10 years before Quirinius was governor and the two were not (and could not have been) contemporaries.

That's a pretty murky passage to get too cut and dry on. It has more to do with which census/tax/administration Luke was referring to than anything else. The tax that Quirinius concluded? At any rate there is a lot of argument over, along with some fairly reasonable resolutions to, the 'problem'. (The same goes for holding too hard and fast with the Egyptian chronology [something of an oxymoron] issues.)

Also, were the genealogies general, or were they specific in all cases? Why would Noah look for the largest possible animals he could find to put in the ark?


Edit: but then I have a problem believing the Athenians turned out something like over 100 triremes in four months -- but Thucydides never exaggerated, so I know it has to be true.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #104 of 104
Yet another looney tunes US museum opens to 'prove' dinosaurs were on the ark.

No surprise there. I did find these stats pretty shocking though:

Quote:
A Gallup poll last year showed almost half of Americans believe that humans did not evolve but were created by God in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

Three of 10 Republican presidential candidates said in a recent debate that they did not believe in evolution.

Scary.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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