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Next MacBook update a yawner; Ultra-portable to get 13-inch display - Page 6

post #201 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

As I mentioned in the other thread...there's no reason for a smaller MBP to be any cheaper.

Cheaper compared to what? In the old Aluminum Powerbook line, the 12" model was the cheaper of the three.
post #202 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

As I mentioned in the other thread...there's no reason for a smaller MBP to be any cheaper. 13" is a bit on the large size but certainly more portable than a 15".

See my reply in the other thread to your reply. It's not just because it's smaller. that doesn't necessarily mean that production costs go down, however, many people, especially the people who don't know computer hardware, etc. in-depth, will expect a lower price, and Apple must price it there in order to stay competitive and appear reasonable to a large portion of its market. Thus, profit suffers on the machine due to the gap between production cost and sale price narrows.

And unfortunately, said market isn't even too interested in machines with small screen sizes. The pro market likes to get all the screen size it can get without being too bulky. For some it's 17" but no larger, and for others, that's too big and prefer the 15.4". 13" and 11" would be far too small for the pro market to do the screen-heavy things demanded of them, like graphics programs, professional web developing, and video editing.
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post #203 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusLtngBlue View Post

And unfortunately, said market isn't even too interested in machines with small screen sizes. The pro market likes to get all the screen size it can get without being too bulky. For some it's 17" but no larger, and for others, that's too big and prefer the 15.4". 13" and 11" would be far too small for the pro market to do the screen-heavy things demanded of them, like graphics programs, professional web developing, and video editing.

Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.
post #204 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave View Post

Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.

What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
post #205 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.

I don't know. Personally, the specs of the MacBook or the iBook of two years ago are good enough for me in a laptop. It's the gearheads who are never satisfied. I follow various forums and continually read comments by people who want a "new 12" PowerBook" and aren't satisfied with the MacBook.

Perhaps I should have left it to someone else to answer the question.
post #206 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusLtngBlue View Post

What you want isn't necessarily what's good for the company. a 13" MBP would lower profits. I give it a 6.5% chance of ever happening.

Not when there's people like myself who choose a macbook rather than a pro because we want the smalller size. True, we don't NEED the mbp if we do that as much as power users. But there is a segment of people who would get a "more expensive" version of the macbook for gaming. It's the video card issue. Nothing more.I would also venture to say that 13" laptop users are more likely to buy an external display for the home as well so there are profits to be had there as well.
post #207 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusLtngBlue View Post

What you want isn't necessarily what's good for the company. a 13" MBP would lower profits. I give it a 6.5% chance of ever happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave View Post

Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.

+1

The clamoring is indeed there.
post #208 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.


"VIDEO CARD". As a gamer would say. You hear it a lot on the Apple Stores. The potential buyers ask if they can get the mbp gpu in mb size for gaming. And they are willing to pay the extra price to keep the smaller footprint but have the better graphics. It doesn't have to be the best in the lineup, just a decent one. Sort of like the entry level 15" mbp. And 15" isn't THAT much more real estate screenwise. Think about how many people who own mbp buy an external display anyway for the home/office.


Students and others that travel a lot need a small size but like to plug into an external monitor at home. Why buy two computers when you can do that?
post #209 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4metta View Post

VIDEO CARD.


Students and others that travel a lot need a small size but like to plug into an external monitor at home. Why buy two computers when you can do that?

What do you mean by "video card"?

If you mean a seperate GPU, and memory, ok.

But, if you really mean "video card", I don't see it happening.
post #210 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What do you mean by "video card"?

If you mean a seperate GPU, and memory, ok.

But, if you really mean "video card", I don't see it happening.

Yes that's what I meant.
post #211 of 239
There's two reasons why I'd pay hundreds extra for a MacBook Pro over a MacBook.

1) A matte screen
2) A matte screen
post #212 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.

That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.

As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.

I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.
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post #213 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.

As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.

I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.

Oveer the past few years I've had engineering friends who bought the 12" Powerbook.

Also, a guy I know who does Java development bought one.

They all bought them for the small size, and for the time, the power.
post #214 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.

As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.

I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.

Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.

I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
post #215 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.

It's not that small a niche. Very few people buy computers for games. The type of person who is looking for a small laptop isn't a gamer - the two are mutually exclusive. Gamers are a smaller niche IMHO, they're just more vocal online than normal people that have work to do.
post #216 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.

Why should every product be viewed from the perspective of a gamer? Is that the only market that matters? There may be a lot of them, but I don't think they make a majority of the market. It's starting to get annoying.
post #217 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.

I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.

That's exactly the point. Why are you even bringing the gamers into this? It's a whole different market. It's also not a market the Mac competes in anyway. If you want to go to a LAN party, you get the fastest Windows laptop that you can afford with features out the wazoo, plain and simple, because any little sacrifice you make playing on a Mac laptop (assuming the game even runs on a Mac) will probably get you fragged very quickly in a sea of Windows-optimized games. Nobody would buy a Windows ultraportable for gaming, either, so it's a moot point. Don't think about what you want. What you want isn't necessarily what others want. The market for ultraportables is for people who are willing to give up a bit of power and screen size in favor of something easier to carry day in and day out, for tasks like writing, web surfing, email, giving presentations and playing back movies, all of which are relatively simple but still not as easy to do on an iPhone. If you're not one of these people, it's foolish to say it doesn't fit your requirements. It's not meant to. You might as well be complaining that the Mac Mini can't do serious Photoshop work.
post #218 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.

I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.

It seems as though you are assuming that if Apple produces one of these machines that they will then discontinue all of their other, larger, more powerful, machines, so that these gamers of yours will then have no choice from Apple.

You must know that it isn't the truth. Why must all of the choices from Apple appeal to gamers, who are not much of the Apple user base anyway?
post #219 of 239
Well, this probably merits its own thread but here it is: TS claims that the next Macbook Pro will not get full HD display. I hope it will be not a yawner too. Has AI learned something about this?
post #220 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Well, this probably merits its own thread but here it is: TS claims that the next Macbook Pro will not get full HD display. I hope it will be not a yawner too. Has AI learned something about this?

Normally, I'd say that you should ignore ThinkSecret, but I really don't see a compelling reason for Apple to offer it WUXGA. A buddy of mine that wants to get a WUXGA notebook says that they are very hard to find, it's only currently offered on like four models that he's found, which I take to mean that there's not much of a market for the resolution. I hope that changes when resolution independence is made commonly available, but that would be late this year at the earliest..
post #221 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It seems as though you are assuming that if Apple produces one of these machines that they will then discontinue all of their other, larger, more powerful, machines, so that these gamers of yours will then have no choice from Apple.

You must know that it isn't the truth. Why must all of the choices from Apple appeal to gamers, who are not much of the Apple user base anyway?



Well said.


And why not change that and take advantage of the new intel capabilities. What can be lost from increased sales from a new population? Do you have to be hardcore gamer to play games? No. People are fooling themselves if they think the market is too small to matter.Increased profits are increased profits. Do you know how many people play WoW? Look it up. Blizzard also makes an effort in that they make the code universal. And it's not available for console. Go to the Mac part of the WoW technical forum and look at all the posts coming from people who want to get a mac for gaming cause they are sick of Windows. And that's just one game.

And it isn't only gamers that want a portable laptop with a nice gpu. I am just using them as yet another example of who would be interested in a 13"mbp. Not everybody needs to be a hardcore video editor to enjoy that.
post #222 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4metta View Post

Increased profits are increased profits.

A new platform will surely create increased sales, but this does not mean there will be increased profits. The R&D and additional support for a new platform can be a financial drain. Just take a look at MS' hardware platforms for an example.
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post #223 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loungepop View Post

I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.

That's a good part of what I've been trying to say, there will always be a group of certain people who want this or that, or that this would appeal to, but after all the R&D costs, are there really enough people who will buy it to make a considerable profit? Not for a MBP with any smaller display size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

It's not that small a niche. Very few people buy computers for games. The type of person who is looking for a small laptop isn't a gamer - the two are mutually exclusive. Gamers are a smaller niche IMHO, they're just more vocal online than normal people that have work to do.

Are you kidding me? Gamers make up a surprisingly large market when it comes to buying machines. I never thought I'd make a reference in my defense to this game :P, but see the post about WoW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Oveer the past few years I've had engineering friends who bought the 12" Powerbook.

Also, a guy I know who does Java development bought one.

They all bought them for the small size, and for the time, the power.

But how many people are in these professions compared to the rest of the spectra that all the other Apple machines cover? Not many... at least a 3:1 ratio. After all the costs to redevelop a case and hardware arrangement in the case, and so on with the R&D, it just wouldn't make a good enough profit.
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post #224 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusLtngBlue View Post

Are you kidding me? Gamers make up a surprisingly large market when it comes to buying machines. I never thought I'd make a reference in my defense to this game :P, but see the post about WoW.

Please give me some numbers then. The one search showed WoW subscribers at 8 million. Last I heard, the installed base of personal computers is somewhere between 200-300 million.

I would suggest that making a judgment on whether a general-purpose product would be popular based on whether gamers want it is quite hasty to say the least. Gamers aren't the only market for computers, I don't think they are nearly as influential as they like to think, that influence seems to have faded significantly. Most product models from most computer companies aren't targeted at gamers at all. If one goes to a big box store, it looks as if none of the notebooks target games as a significant use. Heck, about half of computers sold only have the Intel integrated chips, and I would imagine that a lot of the non-Intel chips is also made up of the integrated variety from other companies.
post #225 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusLtngBlue View Post

Are you kidding me? Gamers make up a surprisingly large market when it comes to buying machines. I never thought I'd make a reference in my defense to this game :P, but see the post about WoW.

Gamers who buy a special machine, dolled up to play games, are a small percentage. People who just buy a newer, but average, computer to play games on, are in a bigger catagory. People who play games on their regular machine, are the biggest gamer catagory.

But they are all dwarfed by the people who never buy what a gamer would consider to be a gamers game, or who buy one rarely, "just to try it".

Quote:
But how many people are in these professions compared to the rest of the spectra that all the other Apple machines cover? Not many... at least a 3:1 ratio. After all the costs to redevelop a case and hardware arrangement in the case, and so on with the R&D, it just wouldn't make a good enough profit.

I don't know, and neither do you.

But, they are just another bunch of people who want a smaller, lighter machine. It was just an example of some professionals who do opt for the 12".

The Mac has become the premier Java developement machine, even in Sun! So I would imagine that a lot of Java people might buy one.
post #226 of 239
Interesting, this is cool, nearly made my day.

Video Converter
http://www.allvideotools.com
post #227 of 239
aegisdesign

I know this is not the right venue for this, but I don't remember which one was, so I'm linking to it for you here.

Remember we discussed LLVM?

Apple gave several presentations at the latest LLVM dev con. May 25+ Look at the listings, and access some of the info.

http://llvm.org/devmtg/2007-05/index.html
post #228 of 239
Report: Online game revs tripling by 2012


"DFC Intelligence predicts that income from MMOGs and digitally distributed content will rise dramatically in the coming years."
post #229 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Gamers who buy a special machine, dolled up to play games, are a small percentage. People who just buy a newer, but average, computer to play games on, are in a bigger catagory. People who play games on their regular machine, are the biggest gamer catagory.

But they are all dwarfed by the people who never buy what a gamer would consider to be a gamers game, or who buy one rarely, "just to try it".

QuotedForTruth

Also, there are those who are into just one or two games but they are REALLY into those one or two games. Enough so that their next purchase will be heavily influenced by how well it plays the game. Take WoW for instance. A lot of people that play WoW just play WoW but adore it. I fall under that category.
post #230 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

aegisdesign

I know this is not the right venue for this, but I don't remember which one was, so I'm linking to it for you here.

Remember we discussed LLVM?

Apple gave several presentations at the latest LLVM dev con. May 25+ Look at the listings, and access some of the info.

http://llvm.org/devmtg/2007-05/index.html

Yep. I've watched a few of the talks already. Watch Chris Lattner's talk about LLVM in the OpenGL stack. About 14min 20sec in he's asked a question about if Apple are using LLVM in Tiger or Leopard and answers that it'll be in Tiger 'very soon' not just Leopard.

They're also building a new C compiler to replace gcc. This is being done by Steve Naroff who was the developer responsible for Objective C at Next originally. There's a nice rant about how it's taken 12 years from when Steve suggested a feature to Richard Stallman to implementation in gcc and how Apple can't wait that long for open source politics to affect their development.
post #231 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Yep. I've watched a few of the talks already. Watch Chris Lattner's talk about LLVM in the OpenGL stack. About 14min 20sec in he's asked a question about if Apple are using LLVM in Tiger or Leopard and answers that it'll be in Tiger 'very soon' not just Leopard.

They're also building a new C compiler to replace gcc. This is being done by Steve Naroff who was the developer responsible for Objective C at Next originally. There's a nice rant about how it's taken 12 years from when Steve suggested a feature to Richard Stallman to implementation in gcc and how Apple can't wait that long for open source politics to affect their development.

They were very interesting. 12 people from Apple, almost 20%. Too bad some of the sound was so poor.
post #232 of 239
it may seem a long time ago, but remeber when you bought your first ipod. (me 1st gen 5GB) and spent hours nay days loading up all your own CDs before you started downloading tunes. well surely an optical drive is still required for those people buying their first mac, first itunes first ipod? otherwise would you really be expected to download every CD you ever bought?
post #233 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by barney View Post

it may seem a long time ago, but remeber when you bought your first ipod. (me 1st gen 5GB) and spent hours nay days loading up all your own CDs before you started downloading tunes. well surely an optical drive is still required for those people buying their first mac, first itunes first ipod? otherwise would you really be expected to download every CD you ever bought?

The point is not that an optical drive would not be included, it would be an external one that would be left at home. You don't import iTunes on the road, do you?
post #234 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

How weak are some of you people? I take my 15" Powermac everywhere.

Welcome and join me on the 25% slope back home from work on your bicycle!
post #235 of 239
good point well made
post #236 of 239
Quote:
What can be lost from increased sales from a new population? Do you have to be hardcore gamer to play games? No. People are fooling themselves if they think the market is too small to matter.Increased profits are increased profits. Do you know how many people play WoW? Look it up. Blizzard also makes an effort in that they make the code universal. And it's not available for console. Go to the Mac part of the WoW technical forum and look at all the posts coming from people who want to get a mac for gaming cause they are sick of Windows. And that's just one game.

The casual and online gaming market are going to be huge...going forwards...

As games? Niche? Mac? Erhm. 2 million iPhones, iPod touches, Macs reaching 2 million per quarter? That's alot of sales. Alot of gaming possibilities. Gaming is not a small market. Weren't even Alien Ware worth Dell buying them? Hardly niche. Compared to the entire pc market? Meh. By that def' so is Apple 'niche'.

Tart machines selling in hundreds of thousands? Apple can take a chunk of that if they sort out their mid-tower and open gl and gpu options problems...

Lemon BOn BOn

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #237 of 239
Not at least offering a choice of Nvidia alternatives in the iMac...or still, STILL having the aged 7300 in the Mac Pro? Apple and lame GPU choices...how does that work again?

It's embarrassing, Apple. Sort it out.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #238 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Not at least offering a choice of Nvidia alternatives in the iMac...or still, STILL having the aged 7300 in the Mac Pro? Apple and lame GPU choices...how does that work again?

It's embarrassing, Apple. Sort it out.

Lemon Bon Bon.

true !
post #239 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiverDown View Post

At the least there will be an external optical drive, but I doubt that. I guarantee the ultra portable will have an optical drive. Cmon how else are you going to buy a new OS, via an SD CARD????? Pleeese.

I wouldn't mind that at all. I think downloading and paying for software via the internet is the best. If prices for SD Cards could become as cheap as DVDs, I would definitely switch over to flash. Too bad we're not there yet ._.

Imagine shopping for software at a retailer and seeing software packaging the size of credit cards. Cute
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