Apple hit with class-action suit over MacBook, MacBook Pro displays - Page 2

Google search 16.2 million colors lcd

You'll find its common and there for accepted practice to have 16.2 million colors as a feature of 6 bit LCD panels. However if the feature is claimed as "16.7 million colors" then they must be talking about 8 bit.

Dave

[QUOTE=Madame Defarge;1083563]
Madame DeFarge

Yes they are. Nevertheless, laptop screens cannot be relied on for critical editing for reasons already stated. If you are forced to rely on one, the results are a total crapshoot.

Sorry, iBook G4

The point is, that Apple advertises a particular experience for the user, and it turns out that Apple may be stretching the specs to the point of falsehood.

Should they be allowed to get away with that?

BTW, as it turns out, the trackpad issue is now know as a major issue in all iBooks for that time frame. Apparently, this is not the first time that Apple has put a defective (or not as advertised) product out there and refused to take responsibility for it.

It's called a Powerbook G4.

I get a kick out of these people that complain that they've had threads deleted in the Apple Discussion Boards. DUH... it's Apple's Board on Apple's site, they're not gonna allow you to put anything you want on the discussions. It's also not the complaint department. If you want to complain, phone Apple or rant on some other Mac forum.

I'm upset about how much many of you are defending Apple on this blindly. I've gone through numerous Apple products and so far, Apple's products are the worst that I've experienced when it comes to reliability. Apple should pay more attention to 1. creating quality hardware and 2. selling what they're advertising.

2 out of 4 Apple laptops I've purchased had to be returned due to serious issues on arrival, and the two I've kept had "minor" but nontheless noticeable defects (bent hinge on PB and partially recessed power button on MBP).

1/2 iMacs I've purchased had to be returned because it randomly started making crazy sounds and freeze - deemed to be a logic board issue.

The Powerbook I've kept had its hard drive fail after 2 years and the display now disconnects when adjusting it - and I am by no means an abusive user.

Last but not least, my Airport Express just blew on me after I left it plugged in for a week! And I almost never used it!

I switched from a Powerbook G4 15 inch to a MacBook Pro 15 inch for my daily use and I noticed the "dithering" before I read about it on the posts. Once you use the computer a lot, you don't see it, but it is there, and I do feel like I got a sub-par display for a premium price.

I won't even mention the horror stories people have when attempting to "prove" to Apple that their products have a problem and need an exchange, or the number of faulty, "disposable" iPods out there.

Apple needs to see as many complaints / lawsuits as possible on this subject matter. As much as I respect the company and am an avid Mac-only user, I do not believe it is wise to keep on defending Apple and coming up with excuses for them if it's their fault.

........

Again, though I'd never buy a PC, I do resent being taken for granted by Apple.

For a long time, they could count on Mac loyalists to stick with their product, because, not matter what kind of issues there might be, Apple turns out a vastly superior product. But it's a different story now that they are trying to woo PC users, as the they may be more likely to balk at defective computers or not as advertised issues.

Personally, I was seriously considering buying the next MacBook Pro that comes out, but I may wait a year, to see if this issue gets resolved. It's not in Apple's interest to fudge specs.

From Wikipedia....

iBook G4 (October 22, 2003) Major revision, processor switch
12-inch or 14-inch Active-matrix TFT Display (1024x768 max resolution)
G4 800/933 MHz/1 GHz
256 MiB RAM
30/40/60 GB Hard Disk
Slot-load Combo (CD-RW/DVD-ROM)
USB 2.0, Firewire 400, Video Out, Ethernet 10/100
Airport Extreme (802.11g, optional)
Mac OS X v10.3 "Panther"

Uhh...show me ones that consistently degrade in a matter of weeks or months after purchase. The MBP has only been out for what..a year? Try reading and comprending what people are complaining about next time.

"Millions of Colors" and "More than 16 Million Colors" have become industry-wide terms. I'm almost certain that NEC and/or ViewSonic have used these in the past. Using these terms is a dead giveaway that dithering is involved and that there are truly only thousands of colors. Legally, I have no idea what the implications are, but Apple is certainly not the only one to do this. I'm not excusing Apple, but if Apple is held accountable, then so should all other manufacturers. Note that lots of manufactureres have stopped listing the color depth altogether, perhaps becasue this was a legal landmine.

Accountablity is good for both the consumer and Apple Inc. (and any other computer company).

If I'm shelling out mega bucks for a MacBook Pro, I think I'm entitled to know exactly what I'm getting.

Yeah, and when the display degrades in two months or even THREE weeks, Apple won't take it back. Oh, and they'll dimiss your complaint too. Nice.


It's not about what people can tell the difference between. Most can't tell the differenc between 256kbps and 384kbps audio. Does that mean Apple can now sell 256kbps audio as 384? I mean, it's not that big a of a difference folks! Oh, and does that mean that when I point this out to them, they can tell me where to stick it?


So yours doesn't have the issue. Neither does mine. So what? It's not about "all or most" friend..it's about a significant number. Seems like the complaint proves that outright. And I've personally heard of these same issues before.

And no, sparky, I'm not talking about performance degreading over a year or three. Jesus...try actually reading what the parties are complaining about, champ.


Perhaps the 8 bit thing is bunk, but not the durability/reliability issue nor false advertising claims. As for "everyone knowing" about LCD/TFTs losing a bit a year, I ask you and everyone else to try to comprehend that fact that the issue is NOT long term degradation...but short term degradation coupled with false claims and shitty service from Apple.

Don't be an apologist. Sure they are Apple's boards, but it's dishonest for them to delete legitimate service/repair issue threads just to make themselves look better. Hell, they may have even been doing it to prevent the threads from being used against them in a lawsuit.

On that not, "I get a kick" out of watching 13 year old Apple apologists think that their favorite company can do no wrong. I love Apple products, but I also know Apple is an arrogant company with questionable service/refund and repair policies. It's just the way it is.

Portables do outsell towers, but nowhere near 10 to 1. In fact, in a recent quarter, Apple was still getting about 40 percent of its Mac revenue from... desktops.

And on the PC side, its even closer. It was only a couple of years ago that notebooks became more popular than desktops:

http://news.com.com/PC+milestone--no...3-5731417.html

.

Not sure if this is the same problem, but I have a MBP and the screen is indeed grainy.

E.g. the transition of the interface in iTunes isn't really smooth. If I have a completely white page, it isn't smooth as well, but the pixels differ slightly in color. When I compare this to my BenQ TFT I can notice the difference a lot. I'm really sensitive to graphical details, so perhaps not everybody compains about this. It isn't a joke or whining, it's just true in my case.

However, I read some topics about this on the forum a few months back and since it's not just happening to me, I simply accepted the fact that my MBP screen isn't as good as some other screens .

That's true, and I'd expect similar lawsuits to be leveled against PC notebook makers.

I'm just surprised that stuff like this hasn't come up before in a major way in other hardware. Remember the old graphics cards that used to claim '22-bit' color, but it really was 16-bit color, dithered? The computer and tech industry has been using dishonest lingo to describe color depth for a LOOOOONG time now. \

.

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/graphics.html

"Promote your ideas on the MacBook Pro’s dazzling display. An aggressive ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics processor under the hood coupled with up to 256MB of GDDR3 SDRAM powers the mobile visual studio you’ve been waiting for. Retouch color, edit on location, video conference with colleagues: Do it all, anywhere.

MacBook Pro makes your ideas more enlightening, with a sharp, high-resolution screen. See blacker blacks, whiter whites, and many more colors in between on a brilliant 15.4-inch, 1440-by-900-pixel or 17-inch, 1680-by-1050-pixel digital display. Enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables."

I do not have time to go through the 50 odd messages here but there are lots of other major flaws in the Intel laptops Apple has produced, and that they will not acknowledge. The random shutdown issues, flawed logic boards, and screen flickering. I have experienced all 3 of these on my original Macbook.

It was hell trying to get them to repair it. I use it every day for school and work and had to send it in to Apple, after much arguing in their store, to have them "fix" it. I went through this 3 times for the random shutdown issues and once for a bad logic board. Each time it was sent out, it was gone for over 2 weeks. Very ridiculous.

Now my screen is flickering a ton, like a loose connection or something. I've looked online and there seems to be thousands upon thousands of other similar reports so obviously mine isn't an isolated incident. This thing is only about 10 months old, no excuse for so many problems like that and the bad service. I imagine trying to battle in the store about the display issue will be just as painful, especially since it doesn't happen all the time and I haven't found a particular way to reproduce it. With only 2 months left of my 1 year warranty, I wouldn't put it past them to just meddle around with it for 2 months and then say my warranty is up, tough.

Not happy with Apple's quality on their laptops at all, if you couldn't tell.

And how about some of those older 15 inch CRT monitors with viewable screens smaller than 14 inch monitors? It took a class action lawsuit back in 1995 to get monitor manufacturers to start being honest about the true viewable size of their displays. And I bet Apple fans back then were also saying the same "useless lawsuit", "damn lawyers" comments. But on the other hand, when Apple's lawyers sue someone, it's always "Hurray Apple! Go get em!"

Yea but it also means 12 million for the lawyers.

I've actually noticed graininess on the iMac displays as well as the laptops. However, on a cheaper external LCD, I noticed the particular display was very uniformly colored. I've always had problems with the quality of Apple's consumer displays. They just aren't good enough for color accuracy.

Putting aside potential quality problems from Apple with their macbook, as it's quite off topic (isn't that thread about the class action and the colour depth of the display?)

Companies shouldn't be allowed to say whatever they want just to sell their stuff, and customers shouldn't be held accountable for not having checked it before buying (especially when nowadays so many products are sold over the net, hence without much possibility to check before buying...)

That said:
1- going to the developper's pages on Apple site, they state for macbook as well as for the cinema display that the colour depth is up to 24bits... For me, developper's site is exempt of the usual marketing chit-chat (I might be wrong though...)
2- browsing the net, it's easy to check that there are still quite a lot of competitors that advertise millions or 16.7 millios of colour... why don't they get sued too?
3- after all, who cares if the hardware is 2 bits or 1 billion bit capable, as long as the result for the eye is the equivalent of 24bit depth? after all, nobody's ever sued the electric companies, for letting us think that the light bulbs have a constant brightness when in fact they're flickering 50Hz or 60Hz (depending where you live)

Forcing manufacturer's to face their responsability is a great thing, pushing things to get money out of it is just ruining the original moral purpose...

Dithering is one thing I've seen Apple fans claim that Apple doesn't do, even recently on this board. I don't see it all the time on the displays that do dither, but when I do see it, I'm pretty annoyed by it. I hadn't noticed my MacBook Pro doing this.


The Cinema displays are purported to be 8bpc, but I think by the same people that claimed that Apple didn't use dithering.


I have never heard of the 16.2M number. How is it derived? It seems like a bullshit number to me.


I hadn't heard of that.


The typical sales figures for most manufacturers is getting very close to 1:1. 10:1 is a long ways away.


Most displays don't seem to degrade noticibly within the first year that I've found. It usually takes about three or more to get a shift that's noticible to most people.

as i'm sure it's been said, no professional is going to rely on the laptop screen for their final product. If you want a screen that produces perfect color, you'll have to go with a multi-thousand dollar flat panel or a $500+ CRT. I don't know what professionals use, but I'm sure ultra-thin laptop displays aren't it. I thought they would use CRTs anyway because of their superior color reproduction and contrast, as well as black reproduction.

Besides that, even if it does "trick" the user's eye into seeing millions of colors, it still appears to display millions of colors.

I think these guys are just taking Apple's usual marketing exaggeration the wrong way. And as it's been said, if one isn't satisfied with the color quality of the display, Apple's return policy is fine.

I'm sure the displays used on the Macbook/Pros are exactly the same as the ones used on other laptops.

Crock. Of. Sh!t.

Yep, but as someone else pointed out, Apple may've been pouring on the marketing honey a little extra thick:

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/graphics.html

"Promote your ideas on the MacBook Pro’s dazzling display. An aggressive ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics processor under the hood coupled with up to 256MB of GDDR3 SDRAM powers the mobile visual studio you’ve been waiting for. Retouch color, edit on location, video conference with colleagues: Do it all, anywhere.

MacBook Pro makes your ideas more enlightening, with a sharp, high-resolution screen. See blacker blacks, whiter whites, and many more colors in between on a brilliant 15.4-inch, 1440-by-900-pixel or 17-inch, 1680-by-1050-pixel digital display. Enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables."

[thanks to Haggar]

\

.

Why is something like this even news anymore? Class action lawsuits are ubiquitous these days because of our broken, discriminatory (anti-buisiness) legal system.

Yeah, Apple should be told off for being over the top on their marketing of their laptop screens when they're the same as any other manufacturer, and the main difference is in the software.

I think a lot of people are still thinking "ooh, pixelly dithering, like Floyd-Steinberg" when they see the word "dithering", i.e., static dithering. That's not how 6-bit LCD panels dither as far as I am aware, they dynamically dither so that a pixel, on average over time, appears to be the correct tone. You would have to have excellent eyes, or very ideal conditions, to see this happening. If you're on a laptop now, can you see it on a smooth grey gradient (e.g., Mac OS X titlebar)? I can't on this iBook.

One very annoying thing about 6bit displays is that they are harder to calibrate. A pretty popular device called the Huey (by Pantone and x/brite) can fail on it but other models of calibration devices also have their difficulty. Just search for Huey, pink and MacBook Pro or iMac.

And yes, I have the strong suspicion that iMacs also use 6bit panels. Now wouldn't it be rather helpful if Apple told their potential photographic customers that they will have trouble with the iMac and should stick with the Cinema Displays? No, let the customers find this out the hard way, why should Apple provide any information about the specifications of their products.

This really sucks if true as I've got my money ready to buy a MBP. And what is up with Apple lately? We have this now and then there was the ipod nano scratching on the first version. Why can't they just accept a little less profit and use higher quality parts? I know I sound like I hate Apple but I don't. I've been a big Apple fan for years and am glad as heck that Steve Jobs came back to run it. But he (and probably most other execs at Apple) is a liberal and as such should have a long-term mindset that shuns short term profits but that is not what I am seeing. I'm also seeing a little bit of Verizion type pricing happening which also sucks.

- Mark

Hey!

I'm far from an Apple Apologist... And I'm the first that calls them out when I feel they've done something wrong. You freaks on the other hand are far worse then I..... You want to crucify Apple for the fact that they use electricity... the same electricity that's used to kill convicted criminals in Texas.

Apple does NOT manufacture their own displays.... **NOR** do they deal in enough volume to dictate the use of shitty components in the manufacture of their displays to the true manufactures of said displays.

Are you living in such a fantasy land as to believe that Apple has input into the components that make up an LCD display? If so, more power to ya...


D

That is X-Rite.


They have made significant up-front investments in the manufacture of LCD panels.

http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18809048

The display world has many grades of panel technology.

Agree with everything you said, however, the last sentence is not true. Apple sells the LCD, they are responsible for it (So they better have input or else their stupid). I work in a company that sometimes sells foreign made products, we are the ones that are responsible because we sold it. Apple will probably settle this one out of court, what's terrible about all this is we Americans sue for anything even a parking space.

It's usually not too difficult to find out. Among notebook displays manufactured by LG Philips there is only one 8-bit display, the 20.1-inch wide LP201WE1.

LG Philips specifications: page 11

MacBook (Pro) owners can run a test with SwitchResX or ASTRA32 to learn about the display, once you have the exact reference you can use Google to find the specs like this guy did. Apple should make clear to customers that notebook displays are 6-bit instead of spouting marketing nonsense: "MacBook Pro makes your ideas more enlightening, with a sharp, high-resolution screen. See blacker blacks, whiter whites, and many more colors in between on a brilliant 15.4-inch, 1440-by-900-pixel or 17-inch, 1680-by-1050-pixel digital display. Enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables." Bwahaha!


Seems like they are indeed 8-bit displays.

Anandtech review: "Although both the Apple and Dell 20" displays use the same LG.Philips LCD LM201W01 panel…"

LCD Search:
Cinema Display 20" M8893
IDTech 20" S-IPS IAWS64

Cinema Display 20" M9177
(new) LG-Philips 20" S-IPS LM201W01

Cinema HD Display 23" M9178
LG-Philips 23" IPS LM230W01/02

LG Philips specifications: page 9
20-inch wide LM201W01: resolution 1,680x1,050, colors 16.7M (8-bit)
23-inch wide LM230W01: resolution 1,920x1,200, colors 16.7M (8-bit)
30-inch wide 2 different models: res. 2,560x1,600, colors 16.7M (8-bit)

IDTech specifications: page 5
20-inch wide IAWS64: resolution 1,680x1,050, native 24bit colors (RGB 8-bits per each subpixel)

So, what does HP say about their high-end 17.0" WSXGA+ BrightView Widescreen (1680x1050) laptop display on their web site?

"The 17-inch WSXGA+ BrightView display with high-definition means brighter, more vivid and color-rich images like you've never seen before in a notebook computer."

No mention of number of colors. However, I am thinking of class action suit against HP over their "color-rich images like you've never seen before..." comment. I beg to differ! So, who's with me???

Toshiba doesn't mention numbers either.

"...the Satellite® P100 series features a choice of 17" diagonal widescreen displays* with Toshiba's TruBrite technology, dramatically expanding your multimedia and multi-tasking possibilities."

Must be a conspiracy.

Generally true, but I did get $200 for joining the Chevy Lumina bad brakes lawsuit! \

Why be honest with your customers when you can fleece them with overpriced computers using outdated or sub-standard parts sold agressively through an "unbelievable, out of this world" hyperbole ad campaign, AKA the Reality Distortion Field ?

The MacBook's LCD is 24-bit color. Period.

How can it be that I am the first one to actually go looking at the ADC Developer note that lists out the only actual truth on the subject?

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...TP40003994-SW1


For those that don't want to hit the link and scroll down I present:




Quoted for truth
Would you like to retract your lemming like following of the idiots? ^^^^



Can we cut with the calls of apologists and such now? The freaking lawsuit and nay-sayers just "forgot" to actually check the facts.

Well, I've been counting colors on my screen for several hours, and I can't come up anywhere near 16 million....

Seriously - like most here, I'm a big fan of Apple, but if there is MERIT to the claim that there was false advertisement (not what they say NOW in their marketing, but what they said at the time...), then any company, including Apple, needs to be bitch-slapped straight.

We all hate lawyers until we need one.

No merit, just a fast lawyer with absolutely no Googling skills. Or even the brains to effectively check Apple's website. Apple is selling 24 bit per pixel displays in the MacBooks, and has been all along. If someone is getting a bad picture it is a defect and replaceable.

Shhhh!!! Don't say stuff like this unless you want to get chased out here by the pitchfork and torch wielding fanboys!

Oh, and you forgot to mention the mooing/whining fans (cooling device not the users) and the discolored white Macbooks, two other issues Apple refused to acknowlege until negative publicity forced them to.

Oh and then there's the Mac "laptops" that get so hot you can't actually put them on your lap without wearing firefighter pants. In case that doesn't bother you, keep in mind that heat is the number one cause of component failure, so expect a lot of MBs, MBPs to start dying very soon.

I'm not posting this to troll. Apple makes beautiful products and a superior OS and I and am interested in getting a MB (l'm a long time Windows user). But they really need to be held accountable, something its rabid fanbase refuses to do, no matter how much crap they have to put up with.