Closing the book on Apple's Mac mini - Page 7

I don't think the desire to re-use the display is necessarily extreme. What is extreme is the inflexibility in the iMac design. Display technology does not advance anywhere nearly as quickly as most other computer technologies. I think iMac is fine for anyone that upgrades every six years, after that, display quality on even a decent display might suffer noticiably anyway, but if you upgrade every three years, then it really doesn't make as much sense, you have to trade out the entire unit no matter what.

Uhh... this is hard for you, especially since I already mentioned the sites in question? Um, okay:

Step 1: Go to Apple Store online, check out RAM upgrade pricing for Mac Mini. Going from the standard 512MB to 1GB is $75:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...Uq4UB0B/2.?p=0

Step 2: Go to http://www.ramseeker.com/ . Check out the prices on memory modules for the Mac Mini. Note that Crucial, a very well-regarded RAM supplier, offers the following prices on memory modules for the Mac Mini:

512 MB RAM: 25.99
1 GB RAM: 43.99

Note that its only $18 more to go from 512MB to 1GB for them. Note also that their prices aren't even the cheapest on Ramseeker, they were chosen because of their reputation and lifetime warranty.

Step 3: Whip out a calculator and realize that $75 really IS 300% more than $18... 316.66% more, to be exact. Feel free to note that shipping costs would reduce that, but that even so the Apple Store price is blown away.

This is not news. Most anyone tech-savvy that I know understands that Apple Store RAM upgrade pricing is a rip-off, and orders and installs RAM themselves. Even in a situation where your comp has only one RAM slot and you'd have to TOSS RAM, you still come out ahead by NOT going with the Apple Store.

If it makes you feel better, places like the Dell Store have ridiculous RAM upgrade pricing also, just not quite as ridiculous. \

Oh, and you're welcome.

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The thing is, I've been an Apple customer for nearly as long as you, and I can definitely see the argument about Apple being out of touch and not always listening to their customers. It's actually a continuing theme with them, in an on-again off-again sort of way, and its one of the few things that holds them back. And saying, "Don't like it? Go get a PC then!" is a decades-old, tired defense, and has never been particularly helpful. \

I remember one year, under Spindler I believe, that Apple nearly bankrupted themselves, by trying to shove low-end machines down everyone's throats, when at that particular time everyone was screaming for high-end machines. Apple didn't listen to its customers, and wound up with some pretty horrendous losses as a result.

Things have gotten a bit better under Jobs, but let's be honest, Steve likes to think in terms of what 'should be', and not necessarily 'what do people want'. Hence the failure of the G4 Cube, for example.

Don't get me wrong, I think he's somewhat interested in what the customer wants, but not as much as he is in what he wants, aesthetically and otherwise. And sometimes it pans out... spectacularly well, even (I'd say the iPhone is a great example of this). But other times, it doesn't.

The 'market reality' is that Apple's margins have gotten a bit fat lately, and with that and their growing mindshare and marketshare, they're in prime position to expand their product line-up, which would be listening to both their existing fan base and their potential fan base, aka Windows switchers who are on the fence, but who'd hop on over if Apple only offered products more like what they're used to (15" notebooks that cost less than $2000, minitowers*) and more aggressive pricing in general.

( * yes, desktops are still relevant. Apple still gets about 40 percent of their Mac revenue from them).

I think when Apple was struggling to survive (late '90s), Steve's very limited 'magic square' product line-up made a ton of sense. But its a decade later now, and things are changing.

Sure, Apple should NOT attempt to become like Dell, and offer a zillion different generic-looking computers in a manic attempt to try to be all things to all people. Nor should they go after the low-end, 'eMachines/ ghetto' segment of the market (and no, the Mac Mini was really not in that segment).

But even respecting those facts, there's still definitely room to fill in some gaps in Apple's current product line up, such as a reasonably-priced 15" notebook, a subnotebook, a minitower, and a sub-$1000 notebook. And I'm sure their marketshare would improve more than it has as a consequence. Apple seems to agree, as there are credible rumors that they are indeed working on some of those products. But really, they should've had those things out awhile ago.

Apple, for all of its unconventional design brilliance, is actually quite conservative in a lot of its moves. And that does get frustrating for many of its customers and potential customers, who'd buy a new Mac in a heartbeat "if only" Apple would give them something even close to what they want. \

Bear in mind here that we are differentiating between 'fanboy wishes' ("I'd like a CRAY please. And it should look like the Mona Lisa."), and reasonable product requests that are actually quite common, would do well in the marketplace, and are in no way 'niche'.

The G4 Cube, at what it was priced at, can't say the same. So, I guess its okay to be a niche Apple product, so long as your Steve's niche product? Huh?

This is why I can't get too down on 'folks with requests'. Yeah, a lot of said requests don't make sense, but some of them definitely do, especially the ones that come up again and again and again (which should tell you something). And some of them make more sense than some of the stuff Apple has done in the past, eh?

Finally, don't tell people who are unhappy in some way with Apple's product line up to "go get a PC". Too many of them do already, out of frustration. Obviously, what they really want is not some 'consolation prize' PC, but a Mac that meets their needs.

So the real question then is, "Are those needs reasonable?". If you're very pro-Apple, its tempting to define as "unreasonable" any need that's not met by Apple's current line-up. "Apple knows best", and all that. But that would be short-sighted and inflexible.\ Bad companies try to tell customers that what they happen to have to sell is what customers want, good companies adapt to what customers want.

Sure, I can understand Apple wanting to have a conversation with its customers in which it tries to CONVINCE customers of what they really want, if Apple honestly believes that its way is better (and they do, its called marketing). But if you've tried and you've tried and you've tried to convince your customers that they don't want something, and they're still saying, "No, we really do want that", then you should very seriously consider giving it to them.

Unless of course, you, as a company, just find it really annoying to sell tons more product than you were before. Because, even as good as Apple's doing now, they could easily be doing even BETTER (as amazing as that is to contemplate).

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Ahhhh, irony.

I'd have probably bought a Mini buy now (pun intended) if it only had a 3.5" drive. A Slightly bigger case and a HDMI connector would rock, however I do agree it's dead.

Apple Store in Cheltenham had none on display yesterday.

Worryingly they seem to be letting the iPod stagnate too. Can't Apple work on multiple independant projects in parallel?

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file...e771c7f7656526

EDIT: Boy, that took me 4 hours to read this post!!!

Great post. I second that.

Some folks think anything Apple makes is awesome. I have a more pragmatic opinion. I think Apple's recent success is because they've come out with some products which hit the sweet spot of the market. Take the Macbook. I think its an excellent compromise. The 13" display is small, but big enough in widescreen to look excellent. Add in an Intel processor, Mac OS X, and a price that's lower than the competition with a good feature set including 802.11, gigabit ethernet, bluetooth, iSight, etc. Hard for the consumer to lose.

The Mini on the other hand has been a product wandering aimlessly for a market. Is it a dirt cheap PC? No not really, its very small with expensive laptop components in it. Is it a Media PC? No not really. In its original form it didn't even have digital audio output. Its still hampered with a 2.5" drive which can't really handle being a media server.

I've seen a series of missteps from Apple recently. I think the Macbook is/was awesome (now its overpriced), Macbook Pro is reasonably good, Mac Pro seems more of a niche high end product but a worthy product.

The much hyped Apple TV has missed the mark. Its a good price for a small computer, but it provides too little value. Can only watch iTunes content... which isn't even HD, but you're REQUIRED to have an HDTV... huh?! What gives. Either provide HD content from somewhere, or don't require an HDTV. Other problems abound. Sure you can make it better, but so can anyone else.

Apple still doesn't have a reasonable media center solution. They need a slightly bigger Mini that accepts a 3.5" drive or two but is still quiet and smallish, the much requested minitower which could also be cheaper which is definitely a factor for switchers (it was for me).

They also need to release an iPhone without the phone, ie the long rumored true video iPod. They also need to release a lower cost iPhone if there's any hope of selling the million(s) Jobs predicted.

And it wouldn't hurt if they'd actually finish Leopard and put some really neat new features into it such as a new 3D gesture based UI.

Thank you.

So you are telling me that if I send you a Mac Mini you could double the RAM and save me big bucks. What about labor costs? Overhead? Testing? Do you guarantee the new RAM? For how long? Will you send me a prepaid shipping carton and and also pre-pay the return delivery if my machine breaks down? And since my Apple warrantee is now nul and void by installing the third-party RAM, will you take over the service and support for the remainder of the term?

And just how much liability insurance coverage do you have just in case I want to sue you if my computer fails to work as it should?

Just for the record, you do not void your warranty on a Mac mini by installing third party RAM. If you are uncomfortable installing it yourself, perhaps you should pay the Apple premium and buy it with extra RAM pre-installed.

There's really no need to get snippy on either side of the discussion over Apple's overpriced RAM. Some people prefer to get their machines pre-configured and some prefer to save money and do it themselves after the purchase.

Overprice hard drive upgrades too...

No, I'm telling you that you can install high-quality RAM with a lifetime warranty yourself, in about 5 minutes with ease, and save yourself a great deal of money over what Apple charges. I'd file that in the 'obvious' category, right along with the sun rising in the east, and Dick Cheney having no soul.

However, if you'd be happier inventing problems, you are welcome to screw up the simple process of installing your own RAM, can then sue yourself, and then post on Internet forums "not to use Abster, he's incompetent, and provided a terrible user experience." Whatever makes you happy.

Oh, and as iDave stated, you don't void your warranty by installing your own RAM. According to Apple:

"You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty."

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=13946

Don't fear DIMMs, Abster. They don't bite.

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I think most will agree that installing RAM is no brain surgery, but if you cannot do it yourself or find someone to do it for you, then don't complain about paying more. And I'm pretty sure you don't need to have a liability insurance policy or lawsuit over a $600 computer. C'mon.

However, the fact stands: Mac Mini is too limited when it comes to upgrades, at too high a price, with too slow a hard drive, and my biggest pet peeve - a power brick that is half the size.

If Apple discontinues it, I will not be sad. I've owned one myself for a year and re-sold it on eBay for almost as much as I bought it - kudos to Apple products holding their resale value.

OMFG I have to say that Dock is absolutely hideous.

I'd rather swallow live frogs than let that within one mile of my
beaaauutiful, beautiful, preccciousss MacBook Core2Duo 2.0ghz 2gbRAM BLACK.

TBaggins, I would hate to count the number of Macs I have serviced and supported, though I never opened a MIni. And I don't contest your point that it could take 5 minutes to install more RAM. And I never contested your RAM prices. It is just that you tend to leave out a few things:

Important, what is the total cost for the time it takes to order, acquire, install, test, and retest. Thirty-forty minutes. Sorry, but at my hourly rate suggess I don't do it.

More important, what is the cost if you have never done it before, as is the case of most Mac Mini purchasers. It would be the last thing I would recommend doing.

Most important, history tells us that if you install third-party RAM you just voided or caused to avoid your Apple warranty or AppleCare! And that is priceless.

Now, I have installed third-pary RAM and many other things in my own 86+ Macs since 1984, but never while they were under warranty or AppleCare, (as I wouldn't in my BMW). Sure, I used to begrudged the RAM prices, until I owned and ran my own companies. At first, my prices were some of the lowest in the business. However, after a few terrifyingly sleepless nights I realized that to survive, grossing 25-35% profit was manditory because after deducting operating costs and taxes, there wasn't much or anything left. Certainly less and less to invest in equipment and research to do the jobs in hand or in the future. And that comes out of the net profits.

Interesting and yet,

PRODUCT WARRANTY
All Apple hardware products, including clearance and refurbished products, carry a one-year Limited Warranty against defects in materials and workmanship. You may review a copy of the Limited Warranty on new products, including its limitations and exclusions, before you purchase, by clicking the appropriate link below.

Non-Apple-branded/Third-party products are sold "AS IS" by the Apple Store, but may be accompanied by their manufacturers' standard warranties. "AS IS" products are sold by Apple as is, where is, and with all faults, and without express or implied warranties from Apple. If you have questions about any manufacturers' warranties that accompany such products, please contact the manufacturer directly.

Note: Products sold through this Web site which do not bear the Apple Brand name are serviced and supported exclusively by their manufacturers in accordance with any terms and conditions packaged with the products (unless the third-party product is preinstalled in an Apple-branded computer). Apple's Limited Warranty does not apply to products that are not Apple-branded, even if packaged or sold with Apple products. Please contact the manufacturer directly for technical support and customer service. http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Im...uct%20Warranty

Um, was what you posted meant to prove that putting third-party RAM into a Mac voids the warranty for that Mac? Because it didn't.

It's really very simple. If you buy a Mac from Apple and RAM from someone else, and install the RAM in the Mac, the Mac minus the RAM is under warranty from Apple, and the RAM is under warranty from whoever you bought it from.

I am sure you didn't mean what you wrote.

However, perhaps you can explain to all those that got the following or similar from Apple:

"After extensive testing, we have determined that a failure in your PowerBook was caused by a non-Apple product (RAM)…The non-Apple product has been removed, placed in a sealed, static-shielded bad, and is being returned to you in this box with your Powerbook. We suggest that you take this product back to the place of purchase with this information and work out an appropriate resolution with the reseller. ...Please do not reinstall the non-Apple parts that we have removed. Doing so will cause another failure and possibly further damage your PowerBook. The subsequent repair will not be covered under warranty."

Now you may say that this is bull but consider the following as well.

From Apple
Unauthorized Changes To Hardware Void Warranty
This article explains Apple's warranty as it relates to hardware modifications. The information applies to all Apple products in all regions of the world.

Changes made to Apple hardware that are not authorized by Apple may void the warranty. Accordingly, you can expect your service provider to charge you for service to that product if it requires service after the modification has been made. Further, if the modification alters a part so as to make it unfit and ineligible for parts exchange with Apple, a new part must be purchased. Note that pricing is typically significantly higher when parts cannot be sent to Apple for exchange.
Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product.

My take and experience: 1) Change your hardware without a preauthorization from Apple and you are toast. 2) Adding Apple approved memory is ok. 3) However, increasing memory by substituting the pre-installed Apple approved RAM and you are toast. Since matching RAM in pairs is highly recommended, you can't simply add a third-party non-Apple authorized stick.

I did mean what I wrote. In the case that you quoted, it was the third-party RAM that had failed. Why should Apple cover that? If you replace RAM in your Mac, it can be a good idea to hold on to said RAM, so that if anything goes wrong, you can swap the original RAM back in. If the problem then goes away, you know you need the third-party RAM replaced, and if the problem remains, it's something else and the machine can be returned to Apple.

I find it odd that you are trying to prove that adding third party RAM voids your warranty, yet you quote information from Apple which categorically states that that is not the case ("Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product).

As I understand it unless there's a guide in the manual or on Apple's website it's not a user-installable part and so does affect the warranty. No issues though just reverse the process before sending it in if you have to.

That's interesting Abster, but I don't think you took the time to read the Apple doc I linked to:

Apple Warranty: Installing Memory, Expansion Cards, User Installable Parts Does Not Void Warranty

"You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty.

Apple's warranty states:

"This warranty does not apply...if the product has been modified without the written permission of Apple..."

***HOWEVER:*** [added for emphasis ]

Adding memory (DRAM, VRAM) or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is NOT considered a modification to that Apple product.

Therefore, it is NOT necessary to obtain Apple's written permission to upgrade or expand an Apple computer.

While Apple strongly recommends that you retain the services of an Apple Authorized Service Provider to perform any product upgrades or expansions, you will not void your Apple warranty if you choose to upgrade or expand your computer yourself."

-- end quote--

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=13946

Even in the Apple policy that you quoted, Abster, it says the following:

"Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product. "

I think its pretty clear that adding RAM is NOT considered to be a modification of an Apple product by Apple (as Apple states this), does not require authorization (as Apple states this), and as such does NOT void your warranty, since an UNAUTHORIZED MODIFICATION of an Apple product is what actually voids your warranty. This is all explicitly and clearly stated by Apple.

The sole exception is if you DAMAGE your computer in the process of installing RAM, in which case Apple is not liable. This is understandable and logical, but at the same time is also pretty hard to do... I've never managed to harm a comp in the process of installing RAM, nor have any friends or acquaintances. You'd have to be fairly incompetent. \

In short, folks will continue to install their own RAM, without trouble, will save a lot of money, and will continue to not void their Apple warranties. Those who prefer to continue to be fleeced by Apple's (and others) ridiculously high RAM prices, may continue to do so. It's a win-win, and everyone gets what they want. Ain't life grand?

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I think I read it better than you.

If you want to add RAM the warranty stays as long as it Apple approved RAM. Carefull, too many cases where the warranty is voided.

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/.../t-271060.html

http://www.macintouch.com/badram03.html

http://www.ntu.edu.sg/CITS/Latest+De...gory/apple.htm

http://innonate.com/2007/04/12/rotte...re-experience/

iPod Stagnate? Hell, is it supposted to be "Update of the Month Club"? There is already considerable confusion in the stores. iPhone will soon be here...

I'm pretty sure you are right on this. This came up when the mini was originally released, Apple reps pretty much said that as long as you don't break anything, the mini (minus the third party parts) is covered. If you are worried about breaking, I've heard of several people saying that Apple techs would install third party memory for a fairly small fee. Now, if something goes bad and it turns out to be caused by a part that Apple didn't supply, then they can charge you for the repair.

I'm pretty sure that the warranty terms regarding modifications is in respect to drilling, cutting, soldering and such, not swapping modular commodity parts.

Last year, I think there was average of one or more hardware product updated per month. I'm not really aware of any major confusion that resulted from this. This year, it was AppleTV, Airport Extreme and Mac Book, and Octo, which is down a little bit. I suppose there are the color shuffles and the (R)ed nanos, I'm not sure whether to call them product updates or not, the updates difference in the product itself was entirely superficial given that it's just a change in anodization color.

The last main iPod update was relatively small compared to most previous iPod generation updates, the overall design was the same with some relatively slight bumps in features and capacity.

Apparently not, since the doc I quote is from Apple, and explicity says that installing RAM does NOT void your warranty on the Mac in question. Or maybe you finally did read it, since you don't seem to be arguing with that anymore, but rather are posting links to 'RAM horror stories', and are emphasizing that you should use good RAM... which I agree with.


I'd agree that you should install only high-quality, warrantied RAM, such as Crucial (as I've already stated). So, let's see an Apple doc that says its okay to void the warranty on the ENTIRE MACHINE by the mere presence of non-Apple approved RAM in the machine.

The only exception I'm aware of are cases in which the user DAMAGES THE MACHINE in the process of installing RAM, which is pretty darn rare... unless maybe you drop the Mac while installing RAM.


A lot of heat but not much light in those links... in a lot of them, its a bunch of people arguing over what the interpretation of Apple policy is (and I've already quoted the docs in question). One comment was interesting:

As unbiased as I possibly can, I can only recommend buying RAM from Crucial. It's not because we sell it -- it's because it's damn good memory. There is a near-zero DOA rate, and the failure rate is very low (for the rare times we do find bad modules, we are able to replace them on the spot for customers, assuming there is available stock). We used to sell RAM from a handful of companies, but dumped all the rest in favor of Crucial due to all the others having so many quality issues.

Amen to that... Crucial is who I usually go with when I install my own RAM (as I've done on several machines, with no problems) and who I've recommended in this thread.

The one thing that was brought up that was of concern was that Apple apparently sometimes blames repair issues on the presence of 3rd-party RAM, even in cases where this was very dubious. If true, this is very sleazy and of questionable legality, and folks commenting in your links state this also:

I run an Apple Authorized service center... in many cases, [Apple] pulls the [3rd party] memory, sends the unit back to us, and the problem has not even been addressed. The most insane case was a PowerBook G4 that had a broken hinge. You guessed it, bad RAM caused the problem.

This is the first time I've heard of Apple engaging in this dastardly practice, but its pretty easily defeated... if you ever have a warranty issue, simply pull the additional RAM you've installed and re-install the original RAM modules it came with. Then Apple doesn't have an excuse.

And shame on Apple for looking for one. A broken hinge caused by BAD RAM? Uh, yeah.

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From what I've read of Apple policy, I would concur with both of you.

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From The New York Times:

March 24, 2005
HOW IT WORKS

With Mac Mini, Apple Builds a Smaller Box
By IAN AUSTEN

...But Philip Schiller, senior vice president for worldwide product marketing at Apple, says that despite the decline in the costs of such components, many of them remain too expensive for a $500 computer...

...Another design compromise, in this case mostly brought about by cost concerns, is that the Mini does not offer an easy way for users to add memory chips. Mr. Schiller said that was driven in part by company research showing that most customers upgraded memory only when they purchased a computer and generally had it installed by the retailer.

But he confirms that do-it-yourselfers who open the Mini's shell (a process that involves the careful manipulation of putty knives) will not violate their computer warranties provided they do not damage anything in the process.

Copyright 2005*The New York Times Company


I'm sad to see it go, I got a lot of work out of mine at a time when I couldn't make the price of something bigger.

After a year though the HD crapped out on me, the mini had overheated a lot until I put more RAM into it and placed it on an inelegant but efficient bed of copper and aluminium offcuts to disperse heat.

I had felt like a total sucker when I bought the extended warranty but boy was I glad in the end.

However Apple's 3rd party official fixer uppers here did a ham fisted job of re-assembling it.

RIP Mac Mini

While that's more of a hassle than most people are willing to endure, esp. for the hard drive, it wasn't really the point.

The point was that if you have a problem, what is causing it?

Is it the machine? The memory? The Hd?

It is some incompatible combination between them? Does the problem go away when you replace them? NO? Partly?

It is intermittent? Is it crashes, freezes, or just some occasional blip?

Is it a slowdown? Do you have enough memory left in the machine without the third party RAM to run a proper test for this?

Is the Hd itself compatible with certain features of the OS? Some Seagate's, and other,s are not fully compatible. Do you know if the one you bought is? Could it be your problem? Can you tell with a smaller drive? Would it have the same compatibility problem, or not?

Again, Jeff, while many of us here are prepared to deal with these problems, though I'll bet you that many here, if not most, are not, the general public is definitely not.

For the average person, money is often less important than peace of mind.

I wasn't doubting you.

Ah, but you see, then it wouldn't BE a Mini.

The problem seems to be that Apple, or Jobs, at least, has ADD. Attention Deficit Disorder. My daughter has had that, so I'm familiar with it.

It means that if someone dislikes a subject, they have difficulty dealing with it. If something disappoints them, them, they avoid it.

Apple seems to do that.

If a product, or line, isn't doing as well as they expected, instead of doing everything they can to improve it in the way the potential customer is telling them to, they allow it to die off, making only minor changes along the way.

Instead, they concentrate on the next NEW thing, until they lose interest in that as well.

Once something fails to excite them, they move on to another thing.

Most large companies have hundreds, or even thousands of products, both large and small. They all must receive attention. Apple has to understand that every one of their products won't be a hit. That doesn't mean that its market isn't worth exploiting. Even if Apple only sells 100 thousand Mini's a quarter, that's still 400 thousand machines a year, plus OS upgrades, other software, possibly a monitor here or there. If they have ten different machines that sell 400 thousand a year, that's 4 million a year! A lot of sales for Apple, esp. considering the other stuff Apple has to offer along with it, and the sales it will generate as more people see Mac's in their friends, relatives, and colleague's hands.

They're also about $1400. I priced one up a while back to match the Mac Mini spec and they were about $300 more expensive than the Mac Mini. Then you've got to add software.

How many people are prepared to open up a Mini to install something? Or a MacBook?

Only those of us who feel comfortable to do so, a small percentage of buyers of these machines.

Many other people don't want to send their machines out for some company to do it for them if they won't do it themselves.

As far as buying third party memory, and having Apple install it, well, that may not be a bad compromise, but, again, most people won't think of it, or would be too embarrassed to ask.

It's like many other things. It may be a good idea, but the average person won't think so.

Even if a product is doing well, such as the iPod mini, they'll kill it in favor of something better (the iPod nano). I hope that's what will happen if the rumor about the death of the Mac mini is true.

I disagree in that MOST people WILL think that installing RAM is akin to brain surgery.

Those of us here (well, many of us here) refuse to think outside of our own capacity.

What's the joke about people having their VCR's clock blinking 12 midnight?

Some here are giving the average person FAR too much credit when it comes to performing upgrades, or even THINKING about performing upgrades.

The vast majority of people never upgrade their machines, and that goes for PC people as well.

Manchester had two on Saturday on display and no 8 core Mac Pro, ergo the Mac Pro 8 core is dead and the sky is falling in.

Really! \

One thing I know to be true, is that even if you install a third party upgrade, as allowed by Apple, if that upgrade is seen as having caused damage to the Apple hardware, your warrantee may be voided, and you will be charged for the repair.

I have seen this happen.

That's right. I'm amazed when I talk to the average person about computers, how many still don't understand the difference between memory and hard disk space. Many would buy a new computer before thinking about adding more memory because they simply don't know what adding more memory means.