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Closing the book on Apple's Mac mini - Page 9

post #321 of 573
5/28/07 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's actually more than that.

It also means that while the products could have been installed correctly, if THEY damage the machine, it's not covered by warrantee.

So, if your memory melts down, and damages the socket or power supply, tough luck. Same thing for Hd's or any card that may be installed, or optical drive, Firewire, or USB device, etc.

Even if a monitor damages the machine, the warrantee is gone.

I've seen all of the above happen at one time or another.

Meh, forgive me, but I'm not too concerned. And yes, I did assume the above was the case.

Over the years, I've probably saved enough money over Apple's prices by DIY'ing it to finance a couple of significant repairs, so even if the boogeyman did somehow rear its ugly head, I'd likely still be ahead. I have many friends who can say the same. None of us have ever had a comp damaged by 3rd party RAM, and I'm doubtful we ever will.

Perhaps it helps that I (and most of them) don't buy the cheapest 3rd party RAM, but also consider reputation and warranty. Or perhaps 3rd party RAM modules are just not the heat-seeking, comp-destroying WMDs that some fear. I dunno which it is, but so far so good, for many years now.

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post #322 of 573
5/28/07 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Maybe. My daughter's grown up with computers, as she was using mine by herself since she was two and a half, and had her own since she was four. While she's an expert on anything software related (she's now fifteen and a half), she still is in shock whenever I upgrade a machine of hers. Her friends look at me blankly if I ask them questions about their hardware.

Sure Mel, but at the same time, I have no doubt that if we took a thousand typical 50-year olds aside, and a thousand typical 20-year olds aside, quizzed them about their tech knowledge, and then had them perform basic hardware- and software-related tasks, the 20-year olds would, on average, come out ahead.

Just for fun, and as an example of the above, if your parents are over 50 and own a cellphone, ask them to text you. The blank look you'll get is priceless.

It's not agism or anything, it's just that young folks were born in the computer age, older folks weren't, and thus the youngsters are just more comfortable with tech, on average. You are simply one of the exceptions that proves the rule.

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post #323 of 573
5/29/07 at 12:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Sure Mel, but at the same time, I have no doubt that if we took a thousand typical 50-year olds aside, and a thousand typical 20-year olds aside, quizzed them about their tech knowledge, and then had them perform basic hardware- and software-related tasks, the 20-year olds would, on average, come out ahead.

Just for fun, and as an example of the above, if your parents are over 50 and own a cellphone, ask them to text you. The blank look you'll get is priceless.

It's not agism or anything, it's just that young folks were born in the computer age, older folks weren't, and thus the youngsters are just more comfortable with tech, on average. You are simply one of the exceptions that proves the rule.

.

Quite honestly, I'm not so sure anymore. Texting doesn't count. That's just using the device, not opening it up.

While for a time it did seem as though that was true, it no longer seems to be the case. The dumbing down of the computer using populace is upon us.

The same thing seems to happen with all technologies. First a small select technically inclined base begins the transition. Then it spreads. More people know most of the basics, and fiddle. Then the machines become more complex on the insides, but less so outside. Far more people take it up, but a smaller percentage knows what's under the "hood". By the time it becomes ubiquitous, few people poke inside anymore, as it becomes mysterious to them.

We've seen it happen with cars, radio, audio, and now computers.

I'm willing to bet that in ten years, almost no one will ever open their machines.
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post #324 of 573
5/29/07 at 4:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Quite honestly, I'm not so sure anymore. Texting doesn't count. That's just using the device, not opening it up.

While for a time it did seem as though that was true, it no longer seems to be the case. The dumbing down of the computer using populace is upon us.

The same thing seems to happen with all technologies. First a small select technically inclined base begins the transition. Then it spreads. More people know most of the basics, and fiddle. Then the machines become more complex on the insides, but less so outside. Far more people take it up, but a smaller percentage knows what's under the "hood". By the time it becomes ubiquitous, few people poke inside anymore, as it becomes mysterious to them.

We've seen it happen with cars, radio, audio, and now computers.

I'm willing to bet that in ten years, almost no one will ever open their machines.

I don't think you can blame the "dumbing down" of hardware computer knowledge on the machines becoming more complex. In your example, cars have gone from being purely mechanical devices to hybrid mechanical/computer devices. What has really changed in computer design in the past 10-15 years? It's still just primarily a motherboard, sound card, video card, modem/network card, hard drive, and an optical drive (don't think I missed any major components). I'd be fearful of opening up my iMac or a Mac Mini (or any other "computer" that involves using a putty knife to open), but those are both non-standard computer designs. Some of the slots and sockets may have changed (IDE/PCI/AGP/PCI Express), but that in the end is practically cosmetic.

I may be cynical, but I think it's really that the dumbing down of the general populace is upon us.
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post #325 of 573
5/29/07 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

I don't think you can blame the "dumbing down" of hardware computer knowledge on the machines becoming more complex. In your example, cars have gone from being purely mechanical devices to hybrid mechanical/computer devices. What has really changed in computer design in the past 10-15 years? It's still just primarily a motherboard, sound card, video card, modem/network card, hard drive, and an optical drive (don't think I missed any major components). I'd be fearful of opening up my iMac or a Mac Mini (or any other "computer" that involves using a putty knife to open), but those are both non-standard computer designs. Some of the slots and sockets may have changed (IDE/PCI/AGP/PCI Express), but that in the end is practically cosmetic.

I may be cynical, but I think it's really that the dumbing down of the general populace is upon us.

I'm saying that the dumbing down is due to the fact that as the machines become more complex on the inside, they become less complex on the outside, the user interface.

It requires less knowledge to operate these devices, while all the time they do more than before. It's therefore less necessary for the user to know anything about how they work, so they don't care about it. That leads them to knowing less about how they work, and to have less desire to know. It's a downwards spiral.

Most people can't even change an oil filter any more. The best they can do is give the car gas, and perhaps water.

I see the same thing happening with computers. Most people, even young people, know very little about how they work. Going inside for any reason is just not done.

The idea that young people will know more just because they're ypung, isn't a good assumption.

In addition, science is losing out in this country. Where almost half the people don't believe in evolution, and one in five still think that the sun orbits the earth, it doesn't look good.
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post #326 of 573
5/29/07 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Maybe. My daughter's grown up with computers, as she was using mine by herself since she was two and a half, and had her own since she was four. While she's an expert on anything software related (she's now fifteen and a half), she still is in shock whenever I upgrade a machine of hers. Her friends look at me blankly if I ask them questions about their hardware.

She probably can't change a tire either. You should be ashamed not teaching here the simplicities of operating and maintaining a mac!

My girl is 5 with an lamp iMac in her room almost on it's last leg. I will continue with her and the mac and eventually show her how to maintain, rebuild, reboot, and run disk utility , etc all when she's old enough. Currently, she just goes on Safari and plays games on kid websites because she can't read a lot of big words yet.
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post #327 of 573
5/29/07 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidRed View Post

She probably can't change a tire either. You should be ashamed not teaching here the simplicities of operating and maintaining a mac!

That's ridiculous!

I have to tell you that most people can't change a tire nowadays.

I always offer. she understands how it works, but is simply not interested, as most of her friends would agree. They don't find the need.

Quote:
My girl is 5 with an lamp iMac in her room almost on it's last leg. I will continue with her and the mac and eventually show her how to maintain, rebuild, reboot, and run disk utility , etc all when she's old enough. Currently, she just goes on Safari and plays games on kid websites because she can't read a lot of big words yet.

I'm willing to bet that when she's little, and can't get away from you, she will pay attention, and do what you want her to do. As soon as she's older, she will lose interest in what you are trying to have her do, and go and do her own thing.

I've been through all of that.

But, as I said in my other post, my daughter is a software wiz. I doubt if most people here can keep up with her in that area. She cares very much what she can do with her machines, she just doesn't care about getting inside with the hardware.

I've done a lot for the schools here with computers, and can see the lack of interest.

In her elementary school, the computer teacher lamented that she had no good way to get the kids to understand how a hard drive worked. Pictures weren't enough (young kids need more than static displays).

I took some old Hd's I had, removed the tops, and made Lexan covers, so that they could see inside. The teacher could take the top off, move the platter, and move the arm across the disk. That was helpful.

But, as they get older, they seem to lose interest.
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post #328 of 573
5/29/07 at 12:39pm
[QUOTE=TBaggins;1087283]

Just for fun, and as an example of the above, if your parents are over 50 and own a cellphone, ask them to text you. The blank look you'll get is priceless.

I'm 60 and I text message from my mac mini nearly everyday.
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post #329 of 573
5/29/07 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenwire View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


Just for fun, and as an example of the above, if your parents are over 50 and own a cellphone, ask them to text you. The blank look you'll get is priceless.

I'm 60 and I text message from my mac mini nearly everyday.

Bully for you. Really. But do you honestly think that the majority of 60-years olds do that?

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post #330 of 573
5/29/07 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Bully for you. Really. But do you honestly think that the majority of 60-years olds do that?

.

60 seems younger every day.

So...we've determined that most younger people don't change tires and most older people don't send text messages. What was the point again?
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post #331 of 573
5/29/07 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave View Post

60 seems younger every day.

So...we've determined that most younger people don't change tires and most older people don't send text messages. What was the point again?

That younger folks, on average, are more comfortable with technology.

A point that the old farts among us appear unwilling to concede. Ah well... denial springs eternal. And everyone loves the exception that proves the rule.

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post #332 of 573
5/29/07 at 6:26pm
If Apple is discontinuing the current Mac Mini desktop, a welcome replacement in the market would be a headless "Mac mini server" with the following features

1. Intel Santa Rosa chipset and faster, cooler, Core 2 Duo processors
2. dual eSATA interfaces, supporting external RAID enclosures
3. ExpressCard/34 slot for expansion (e.g., media card reader)
4. Upto 200GB internal SATA II hard drive
5. Dual Gigabit Ethernet ports with jumbo frame support and 802.3ad link aggregation
6. 802.11n
7. Running Mac OS X Server

With Leopard coming out with ZFS, a Mac Mini Server would provide the ideal SOHO/home file/backup/media server and would address a growing market segment that would complement both the MacBook Pro, the iMac and the Apple TV as we all need a SOHO/home file/backup/media server to hold our ever increasing data storage and ensure that it is redundantly backed up.

G-Technology is rumored to be coming out with a NewerTechnology/LaCie like mini drive with integrated eSATA support, which would suggest that perhaps my wishful thinking is not all that wishful. I'm just guessing because this seems like a logical soft spot in the SOHO/home market that nobody is addressing. Small-Tree Technology is the only one that seems to have a clue about this market.

http://www.g-technology.com/

http://www.small-tree.com/
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post #333 of 573
5/29/07 at 9:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

That younger folks, on average, are more comfortable with technology.

A point that the old farts among us appear unwilling to concede. Ah well... denial springs eternal. And everyone loves the exception that proves the rule.

.

The fact that there a so many of us old farts around here does disprove the rule.

I think the average membership for this site is about 33. If so, and possibly some site official can confirm it or not, then it means that about half the members are over 33, as well as half being under.

Since the number being bandied around is twenties, something is clearly wrong about it.

But, when I read about "younger" people taking more to technology, the thrust of the articles is that they use the technology, not that they are willing to mess with the guts.

And the technologies they are talking about aren't computers, they are cellphones, and iPods, not exactly products that lend themselves to internal modification or upgrades.
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post #334 of 573
5/29/07 at 11:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


I think the average membership for this site is about 33. If so, . . . then it means that about half the members are over 33, as well as half being under.


That describes the median age, not the average age, when half are younger and half are older.

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post #335 of 573
5/30/07 at 2:37am
For the oldies, we can still remember when using a computer involved programming. We can remember writing programs and were probably taught to do so at school. We were also taught how the nuts and bolts of a computer work, two's complement, how to write a bubble sort, what hash buckets are - things like that. Those were all in my education prior to my 16th birthday. Saying that, I'd been writing software since I was 13 by then and wasn't afraid to wield a soldering iron near by C64's user port.

Today, you don't get taught programming in school anymore or how they work. You get taught how to create Powerpoint presentations. Kids no longer get taught how computers work and therefore have no interest in understanding what all the bits are. I think educators are making a serious mistake not teaching students the science of computing and instead just practical skills that anyone with half a brain cell can pick up on a weeks course.
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post #336 of 573
5/30/07 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy View Post

That describes the median age, not the average age, when half are younger and half are older.


Not necessarily. The median and average can be the same.
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post #337 of 573
5/30/07 at 7:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

For the oldies, we can still remember when using a computer involved programming. We can remember writing programs and were probably taught to do so at school. We were also taught how the nuts and bolts of a computer work, two's complement, how to write a bubble sort, what hash buckets are - things like that. Those were all in my education prior to my 16th birthday. Saying that, I'd been writing software since I was 13 by then and wasn't afraid to wield a soldering iron near by C64's user port.

Today, you don't get taught programming in school anymore or how they work. You get taught how to create Powerpoint presentations. Kids no longer get taught how computers work and therefore have no interest in understanding what all the bits are. I think educators are making a serious mistake not teaching students the science of computing and instead just practical skills that anyone with half a brain cell can pick up on a weeks course.

Absolutely correct!!!

When I was in high school, back in the mid '60's, someone from IBM came to lecture us on computing.

At the time I was taking Fortran 4.

He said that someday, everyone would be using a computerand that we would all have to learn how to program in order to do it.

We know that the first half of his statement came true.

But what happened to the second?

What happened was what I said earlier. As things became more complex on the inside, they became simpler on the outside, as all technologies do.
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post #338 of 573
5/30/07 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


The median and average can be the same.


Rarely, especially in a large population.

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post #339 of 573
5/30/07 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy View Post

Rarely, especially in a large population.


Close enough for government work.
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post #340 of 573
5/30/07 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Close enough for government work.

I'll buy that.

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post #341 of 573
5/30/07 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy View Post

Rarely, especially in a large population.


Are you sure? I've heard that most randomized human populations follow the Gaussian distribution pretty closely, which makes the two very close in actual practice.
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post #342 of 573
5/30/07 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Are you sure?

I'm over 20, so I'm not sure of anything.

The largest number on this forum likely range from 18 to 30, my guess. Likely, few if any are under 15, but those over 33 may extend to eighty or ninety, with a handful over that. A distribution like that pulls the mean well above the median. For an average of 33 years, the median might be like 28.

You and Mel are correct for a large distribution of people in general. The mean and median are close enough for government work.

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post #343 of 573
5/30/07 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

For the oldies, we can still remember when using a computer involved programming. We can remember writing programs and were probably taught to do so at school.

I remember that. I took a programming class in high school... was doing BASIC on an Apple II. Was fun.

But... how many people took those programming classes? Not many. I agree that high schools, even junior highs, should still offer them, but at the same time, they didn't do much 'back in the day' to raise general computer knowledge. They just created a small elite of very tech-savvy folks, while the vast majority knew nothing about computers. Todays emphasis on 'usage', while not as deep, seems to appeal to a lot more kids.

There's probably room for both approaches to work in parallel.

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post #344 of 573
5/30/07 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The fact that there a so many of us old farts around here does disprove the rule.

Not really, unless one can argue that hardcore, longtime AI visitors are very similar to the general population in terms of tech-knowledge. They aren't. \

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post #345 of 573
5/30/07 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Not really, unless one can argue that hardcore, longtime AI visitors are very similar to the general population in terms of tech-knowledge. They aren't. \

.

But, many of those longtime, hardcore visitors, or members are also from the younger set, and they don't represent the average person either.

The Gaussian curve does represent the population. But where is the peak of that curve?

It could be - pretty knowledgeable.

Somewhat knowledgeable.

Not very knowledgeable.

Or even- what the hell are you talking about, knowledgeable.

I think it's between somewhat, and not very.

Overall, that's far better than it was 40 years ago, where it would have been at the "what the hell" point.

But the kind of knowledge has changed, in that it now mostly consists of people who can sit down at the thing and use it for basic activities, but nothing else.

In the past, it consisted of people who programmed, or built their own machines almost exclusively, other than the trained operators in industry.
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post #346 of 573
5/30/07 at 12:28pm
Do some people really not know how to change a tire on a car?
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post #347 of 573
5/30/07 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave View Post

Do some people really not know how to change a tire on a car?

You betcha!
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post #348 of 573
5/30/07 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parmenides View Post

If Apple is discontinuing the current Mac Mini desktop, a welcome replacement in the market would be a headless "Mac mini server" with the following features

1. Intel Santa Rosa chipset and faster, cooler, Core 2 Duo processors

santa rosa is a laptop chip set I do not want laptop parts in a sever desktop parts are ok.
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post #349 of 573
5/30/07 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post

santa rosa is a laptop chip set I do not want laptop parts in a sever desktop parts are ok.

That's silly. There are blade servers that use "laptop parts". Intel even made a special SKU for a low-power Xeon based on the original Core Duo chip.

If all you are doing with the server is home file storage, then even "laptop parts" are overkill.
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post #350 of 573
5/30/07 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post

santa rosa is a laptop chip set I do not want laptop parts in a sever desktop parts are ok.

They're NOT ok. They're too power hungry and have poor power management for a home / small office server.
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post #351 of 573
5/30/07 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But, many of those longtime, hardcore visitors, or members are also from the younger set, and they don't represent the average person either.

The Gaussian curve does represent the population. But where is the peak of that curve?

It could be - pretty knowledgeable.

Somewhat knowledgeable.

Not very knowledgeable.

Or even- what the hell are you talking about, knowledgeable.

I think it's between somewhat, and not very.

Overall, that's far better than it was 40 years ago, where it would have been at the "what the hell" point.

But the kind of knowledge has changed, in that it now mostly consists of people who can sit down at the thing and use it for basic activities, but nothing else.

In the past, it consisted of people who programmed, or built their own machines almost exclusively, other than the trained operators in industry.

I think you're overthinking it again, Mel.

I'll make this concession... younger people, on average, are more comfortable USING technology than older people. If you wish to argue that the playing field is much more level for things like programming or very hardcore hardware knowledge, I might agree with you.

Of course, installing RAM is hardly 'hardcore'. But I almost fear to state the obvious, for fear that this thread will go to 500 posts.

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post #352 of 573
5/30/07 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post

santa rosa is a laptop chip set I do not want laptop parts in a sever desktop parts are ok.

Like a broken record...
--Johnny
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post #353 of 573
5/30/07 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I think you're overthinking it again, Mel.

I'm on overtime.


Quote:
I'll make this concession... younger people, on average, are more comfortable USING technology than older people. If you wish to argue that the playing field is much more level for things like programming or very hardcore hardware knowledge, I might agree with you.

That's what I'm saying.

Quote:
Of course, installing RAM is hardly 'hardcore'. But I almost fear to state the obvious, for fear that this thread will go to 500 posts.

.

That's true too. But how many people do that?
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post #354 of 573
5/31/07 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pairof9s View Post

"Hell is God's way of ensuring his children aren't burdened with truly brilliant unknowns"
-God

Oh tsk tsk... This is an Apple rumours board, not the bible. I'm fine with God judging me, but not Joe Blow from Texas, thank you very much. To call yourself a christian is rediculous, because I don't see you demonstrating any christianity. God is supposed to be loving. Why someone loving would have us burning in hell is beyond me.
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post #355 of 573
5/31/07 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pairof9s View Post

I think you have a gross misunderstanding of God. Always it seems your type take the figurative to be literal. If you believe, you receive; if you don't, you won't. It's as simple as it needs to be.

(FYI...I no longer see this as a needed thread on this excellent forum. Should not have started this, so I'll respond no more. God bless you.)

Well, you know what they say... Ignorance is Bliss, no? I'm sure you're well equainted with said attribute.
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post #356 of 573
5/31/07 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwinnipeg View Post

Oh tsk tsk... This is an Apple rumours board, not the bible. I'm fine with God judging me, but not Joe Blow from Texas, thank you very much. To call yourself a christian is rediculous, because I don't see you demonstrating any christianity. God is supposed to be loving. Why someone loving would have us burning in hell is beyond me.

(This is from a week ago - is there a reason you need to pile on?)
-JD
-- "If Apple wasn't so greedy, they would build G6's and give them away!"
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post #357 of 573
5/31/07 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwdawso View Post

(This is from a week ago - is there a reason you need to pile on?)

Well, I know it was from a week ago, but I didn't get any notification that someone "replied" untill today. I suppose I just made myself look like even more of an ass, but apparently people are still reading the thread.
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post #358 of 573
5/31/07 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwinnipeg View Post

Well, you know what they say... Ignorance is Bliss, no? I'm sure you're well equainted with said attribute.

Ah, the irony. It's "acquainted".
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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post #359 of 573
5/31/07 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Ah, the irony. It's "acquainted".

Yeah, but even so, his point was a good one. Pairof9's lame "God told me to hate gays" shtick (if you go back and read through it, you'll see) deserved deflating.

.
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
post #360 of 573
5/31/07 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Ah, the irony. It's "acquainted".

Oh dear god... excuse me while I sulk off into a dark corner and place a dunce cap on my head. This is just one of the many reasons why you proof-read your comments, kids.
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