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God said it, I believe it, that settles it! - Page 2

post #41 of 127
5/28/07 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, the funding canard, for one, has been tossed out already. You might want to familiarize yourself with the case before commenting.

Oh yes?

When was that?

You mean we can count out the last two centuries of research into the natural sciences now because of something to do with funding?

That must be a relief, no?
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post #42 of 127
5/28/07 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, the funding canard, for one, has been tossed out already. You might want to familiarize yourself with the case before commenting.

Great, so the PROOF of ID is this "case?"

At least now we have something to work from besides the Idiot's Design or Ignorant Design!

Quote:
Another practice that isn't science is embracing ignorance. Yet it's fundamental to the philosophy of intelligent design: I don't know what this is. I don't know how it works. It's too complicated for me to figure out. It's too complicated for any human being to figure out. So it must be the product of a higher intelligence.

The Perimeter of Ignorance by Neil deGrasse Tyson
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post #43 of 127
5/28/07 at 9:23am
Ah, my mistake. You're arguing that this guy Gonzalez has been cited a lot and it has nothing / everything to do with funding and this is good / bad and therefore proves the ID is real and the last two centuries of interdigitating research in geology, anatomy, genetics, paleoanthropology and cosmology are all wrong.

I'll cancel my subscription to 'Nature' first thing in the morning. I pity all those poor scientists. Everything they've taken for granted for so long has been disproved by this Gonzalez guy.



Poor science.
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post #44 of 127
5/28/07 at 9:35am
Thread Starter 
"My ID research is strictly based on observations; it does not depend on any religious assumptions, Christian or otherwise. Neither do we discuss religious aspects in our Privileged Planet book." - Guillermo Gonzalez

Good for him. I think it is wrong that his theories should not be presented. He shouldn't be shunned by others. I am all for arguing theories against another. Why haven't these Christians embraced this man? Oh, I forget...that "everything that the Bible says (the Word of God) is true" thing? Could also be why he avoided using Christian "evidence" in his book too?
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post #45 of 127
5/28/07 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Ah, my mistake. You're arguing that this guy Gonzalez has been cited a lot and it has nothing / everything to do with funding and this is good / bad and therefore proves the ID is real and the last two centuries of interdigitating research in geology, anatomy, genetics, paleoanthropology and cosmology are all wrong.

I'll cancel my subscription to 'Nature' first thing in the morning. I pity all those poor scientists. Everything they've taken for granted for so long has been disproved by this Gonzalez guy.



Poor science.

No, per the university:

"Evaluation of research ability is based primarily upon published papers in refereed journals..."

For promotion to associate professor, excellence sufficient to lead to a national or international reputation is required and would ordinarily be shown by the publication of approximately fifteen papers of good quality in refereed journals.

Gonzalez has 68, co-authored one of his department's textbooks, and has 'made an important discovery in the field of extrasolar planets,' among other notable accomplishments. Don't cancel that subscription to Nature, they've already run a story on this. People are already on record as supporting this blacklisting of his ID position.

From the Nature article:

Quote:
"I would have voted to deny him tenure," says Robert Park, a physicist at the University of Maryland in College Park. "He has established that he does not understand the scientific process."

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #46 of 127
5/28/07 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, per the university:

"Evaluation of research ability is based primarily upon published papers in refereed journals..."

For promotion to associate professor, excellence sufficient to lead to a national or international reputation is required and would ordinarily be shown by the publication of approximately fifteen papers of good quality in refereed journals.

Gonzalez has 68, co-authored a textbook, and made has made an important discovery in the field of extrasolar planets, among other notable accomplishments. Don't cancel that subscription to Nature, they've already run a story on this. People are already on record as supporting this blacklisting of his ID position.

Quote:
In April of 2007 Iowa State University denied Gonzalez tenure. The Discovery Institute launched a campaign portraying Gonzalez as a victim of discrimination by "Darwinist ideologues" for his support of intelligent design, comparing Gonzalez's denial of tenure to the claims of discrimination by Richard Sternberg, another institute affiliate, over the Sternberg peer review controversy. The institute's public relations campaign also makes the same claims of discrimination as the campaign it conducted on behalf of institute Fellow Francis J. Beckwith when he was initially denied tenure at Baylor University. "I believe that I fully met the requirements for tenure at ISU," said Gonzalez, to which intelligent design critic PZ Myers said "Complaining that one met all the requirements is like proposing marriage, getting turned down, and then protesting that one has a good job, a nice apartment, and excellent personal hygiene. That may be true, but it's irrelevant.". Gonzalez is currently appealing the decision. The University has issued a FAQ concerning the situation saying that "The consensus of the tenured department faculty, the department chair, the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the dean of Liberal Arts and Sciences, and the executive vice president and provost was that tenure should not be granted. Based on recommendations against granting tenure and promotion at every prior level of review, and his own review of the record, President Gregory Geoffroy notified Gonzalez in April that he would not be granted tenure and promotion to associate professor." The denial of tenure for Gonzalez resulted in it becoming one of the Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns with the Institute encouraging its followers to call and email the ISU president, Gregory Geoffroy, to pressure him in to reversing the decision.

The The Chronicle of Higher Education said of Gonzalez and the Discovery Institute's claims of discrimination "At first glance, it seems like a clear-cut case of discrimination ... But a closer look at Mr. Gonzalez's case raises some questions about his recent scholarship and whether he has lived up to his early promise." The Chronicle observed that Gonzalez had no major grants during his seven years at ISU, had published no significant research during that time and had only one graduate student finish a dissertation.

Guillermo Gonzalez Tenure Controversy
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post #47 of 127
5/28/07 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, per the university:

"Evaluation of research ability is based primarily upon published papers in refereed journals..."

For promotion to associate professor, excellence sufficient to lead to a national or international reputation is required and would ordinarily be shown by the publication of approximately fifteen papers of good quality in refereed journals.

Gonzalez has 68, co-authored one of his department's textbooks, and has 'made an important discovery in the field of extrasolar planets,' among other notable accomplishments. Don't cancel that subscription to Nature, they've already run a story on this. People are already on record as supporting this blacklisting of his ID position.

FYI, textbooks usually count against you for tenure - it means you're not doing the research you're supposed to be doing. In any case, tenure and promotion decisions are frequently being litigated these days, so if they don't have good justification for denying him tenure, which they are required to provide, then I'm sure he'll get tenure in the end.
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post #48 of 127
5/28/07 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Guillermo Gonzalez Tenure Controversy

Funding is not a primary concern, the papers are. There are other, less important factors involved. What is probably at issue can be gleaned from a statement from 'Eli Rosenberg, chairman of the ISU Department of Physics and Astronomy. Rosenberg said the decision on whether to award tenure is based, in part, on the quality of the faculty member's work and the "impact in the community, how you are being received in the community."' What remains to be seen is if smaller issues will hornswoggle what ISU says is their overriding concern.

But like BRussell correctly pointed out, if they don't have an excuse they can sell the public, he'll probably get his tenure. Far be it from a University to make anyone jump through hoops.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #49 of 127
5/28/07 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Funding is not a primary concern, the papers are. There are other, less important factors involved. What is probably at issue can be gleaned from a statement from 'Eli Rosenberg, chairman of the ISU Department of Physics and Astronomy. Rosenberg said the decision on whether to award tenure is based, in part, on the quality of the faculty member's work and the "impact in the community, how you are being received in the community."' What remains to be seen is if smaller issues will hornswoggle what ISU says is their overriding concern.

But like BRussell correctly pointed out, if they don't have an excuse they can sell the public, he'll probably get his tenure. Far be it from a University to make anyone jump through hoops.

Quote:
Under normal circumstances, Mr. Gonzalez's publication record would be stellar and would warrant his earning tenure at most universities, according to Mr. Hirsch. But Mr. Gonzalez completed the best scholarship, as judged by his peers, while doing postdoctoral work at the University of Texas at Austin and at the University of Washington, where he received his Ph.D. His record has trailed off since then.

"It looks like it slowed down considerably," said Mr. Hirsch, stressing that he has not studied Mr. Gonzalez's work in detail and is not an expert on his tenure case. "It's not clear that he started new things, or anything on his own, in the period he was an assistant professor at Iowa State."

That pattern may have hurt his case. "Tenure review only deals with his work since he came to Iowa State," said John McCarroll, a spokesman for the university.

The Gonzalez Persecution Case Weakens

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post #50 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The Gonzalez Persecution Case Weakens

\

Hmmm... there are still 21 articles since he came to ISU.

Edited: ....bzzzt.....error...strike that

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #51 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

FYI, textbooks usually count against you for tenure - it means you're not doing the research you're supposed to be doing. In any case, tenure and promotion decisions are frequently being litigated these days, so if they don't have good justification for denying him tenure, which they are required to provide, then I'm sure he'll get tenure in the end.

Absolutely. A prof where I did my grad work was denied tenure after a smear campaign by one of her colleagues. She sued that person, individually, and won $135,000.

I'm a little torn on the Gonzales thing. As someone above noted, tenure isn't like a marriage proposal. But it is like a marriage. That is, to tenure someone means that you're going to be working with them for the next 30 years or so. There was a case recently in Chicago were a guy who'd done everything he was supposed to—a book on a good press, plenty of articles—was denied tenure. And that's what Universities can do. I mean, if I do great work and teach pretty well, but I'm an utter asshole and no one wants to be around me, should I get tenure?

On the other side of this is the simple fact that Gonzales can believe whatever he wants to believe so long as he isn't misusing his classroom for other purposes. I mean, hell, the irony is that tenure would have protected him from being fired for being an ID adherent.

BRussell? Where do you come down on this? You have tenure, right?
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post #52 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:16am
In most places like Iowa State, no grants = no tenure, at least in the sciences. Even in my field of psychology, you couldn't get tenure if you didn't have a grant from NIH or NSF or another major granting agency. I suspect that, especially in a field like astronomy, if you don't have any grant funding you probably can't do any research, because it costs money to get or use the necessary equipment.
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post #53 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Hmmm... there are still 21 articles since he came to ISU. The department's various people, interviewed in World, and the Des Moines paper, possibly in Nature too, are not bringing this up. The language is much more nebulous "how he's perceived" was the phrase, nothing about his lack of work. The university spokesperson is being evasive on this issue as well, which, I suppose, may just be his job.

DMZ: you really want to dig in on this? Find the ISU tenure and promotion documents and see what his department/college/university requires. It'll probably be pretty vague.
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post #54 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

^

why wasn't Jesus born in caerphilly?

God couldn't find three wise men, or a virgin there!

That joke works with almost any city...

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #55 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Absolutely. A prof where I did my grad work was denied tenure after a smear campaign by one of her colleagues. She sued that person, individually, and won $135,000.

I'm a little torn on the Gonzales thing. As someone above noted, tenure isn't like a marriage proposal. But it is like a marriage. That is, to tenure someone means that you're going to be working with them for the next 30 years or so. There was a case recently in Chicago were a guy who'd done everything he was supposed toa book on a good press, plenty of articleswas denied tenure. And that's what Universities can do. I mean, if I do great work and teach pretty well, but I'm an utter asshole and no one wants to be around me, should I get tenure?

On the other side of this is the simple fact that Gonzales can believe whatever he wants to believe so long as he isn't misusing his classroom for other purposes. I mean, hell, the irony is that tenure would have protected him from being fired for being an ID adherent.

BRussell? Where do you come down on this? You have tenure, right?

I got tenure a few years ago, and now I'm the youngest full professor (I think) at my university. I really don't like the whole concept of tenure though, both because I've seen people's lives utterly ripped apart because they didn't get tenure, and I've seen people who should've had their asses kicked but didn't because they had tenure. It also just encourages universities to buy PhDs for <$2000/course without benefits and no commitment.
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post #56 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Hmmm... there are still 21 articles since he came to ISU.

Edited: ....bzzzt.....error...strike that

Quote:
Of the 21 peer-reviewed publications he wrote since coming to ISU, at least 13 were continuations of projects he started while a post-doc at UofW. So that makes it about 90% post-doc related work.

Quote:
That they were published while he was at ISU does not mean they weren't part of his earlier postdoc project. There is often a lag time in publishing papers, especially as part of a large project. The analysis here focused on those papers that received citations from other scientists and concluded that "Mr. Gonzalez completed the best scholarship, as judged by his peers, while doing postdoctoral work at the University of Texas at Austin and at the University of Washington, where he received his Ph.D. His record has trailed off since then." I referenced this twice, and the first reference you cite should have contained the same qualifier the second one did - "all of the quality research."

Quote:
By the way, to give you some idea of the dropoff, a friend did a comprehensive search for all published articles by Gonzalez and found that, while he published 7 and 10 articles respectively in 2002 and 2003, that fell to 2, 2 and 3 from 2004-2006. It seems that after he published The Privileged Planet, which was a popular book not a scholarly one, his actual research slowed down to a crawl. Almost all of his publication record came from 2001-2003.

Some more reality checks from previous link.

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post #57 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

DMZ: you really want to dig in on this? Find the ISU tenure and promotion documents and see what his department/college/university requires. It'll probably be pretty vague.

I may -- I had emailed my two-cents to the university, and the autoreply had a link to the handbook. I imagine that once you get past the technical requirements, it boils down to a popularity contest with epic levels of politics, and possibly money, complicating matters.

We probably aren't going to see the real spin from either ISU or DI kick in, until it comes back from review.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #58 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:41am
it is clear that he was denied tenure for multiple reasons:

1) His publication record while at ISU was less than stellar
2) His training record while at ISU was less than stellar
3) His funding record while at ISU was less than stellar
4) He was not well liked by his co-faculty, and believe it or not this matters as it can swing the above lack of character either way
5) His 'research' while at ISU was less than stellar

All of these things make it clear that the denial of tenure was the right decision. Academic scientists are expected to fund themselves, train phds, publish their research, get along with their peers, etc he matched none of these rigorous credentials.
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post #59 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Some more reality checks from previous link.

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Yes, but The Privileged Planet caused a serious backlash, at the University, and elsewhere. It would be interesting to see how many doors that closed, and what effect that had in his working environment.

Again, like BRussell said, all will be revealed when this comes back from review.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #60 of 127
5/28/07 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

But yes, there is a Witch-hunt going on - and yes, there is an organized anti-religious Crusade in full swing. I call it the 'New Inquisition'.

Really!? Where do I sign up?

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post #61 of 127
5/28/07 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

it is clear that he was denied tenure for multiple reasons:

1) His publication record while at ISU was less than stellar
2) His training record while at ISU was less than stellar
3) His funding record while at ISU was less than stellar
4) He was not well liked by his co-faculty, and believe it or not this matters as it can swing the above lack of character either way
5) His 'research' while at ISU was less than stellar

All of these things make it clear that the denial of tenure was the right decision. Academic scientists are expected to fund themselves, train phds, publish their research, get along with their peers, etc he matched none of these rigorous credentials.

Once again, funding is not a listed concern. As far as popular, he was nominated for an 'early achiever award' (before The Privileged Planet was published.) He is, since coming to ISU, cited more often than anyone else in his department. He has had a notable influence on his field. Don't tell me you can throw those things by the boards.

I will say this, if it's the money, despite not being a reason the University will admit to, I'll backtrack and buy this. Mud is thicker than blood.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #62 of 127
5/28/07 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Yes, but The Privileged Planet caused a serious backlash, at the University, and elsewhere. It would be interesting to see how many doors that closed, and what effect that had in his working environment.

Again, like BRussell said, all will be revealed when this comes back from review.

IMHO ...

Dr. Gonzalez strayed from the path of doing original first person astrophysical science. The book, the scientific publications drop-off, and this DI link;

Guillermo Gonzalez, Senior Fellow - CSC

where the CSC stands for Center for Science and Culture is a subtle hint as to the true nature of DI, ID, et. al.

And please remember this is just IMHO, nothing more, nothing less, one person's sideline opinion.

The following two links suggest where most of the spin is being generated from (hint, hint >> DI);

Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez And Academic Persecution

Evolution News & Views

Nice subterfuge in the site name BTW.

As to ISU's forthcoming decision, I doubt that they will be too open in their review process, so I'm sure that DI will continue to spin their political views regardless of the outcome.

\
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post #63 of 127
5/28/07 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I got tenure a few years ago, and now I'm the youngest full professor (I think) at my university.

Slacker! I'm the youngest tenure-track faculty in my department! Does that count for anything? And if I can just keep them from hiring tenure line #36 (I kid you not...thirty five lines in our dept), I can remain the baby and use that to consolidate my power!

Quote:
I really don't like the whole concept of tenure though, both because I've seen people's lives utterly ripped apart because they didn't get tenure, and I've seen people who should've had their asses kicked but didn't because they had tenure. It also just encourages universities to buy PhDs for <$2000/course without benefits and no commitment.

I'm hearing this argument more and more often. There's a private college in SLC that doesn't have tenure; instead, they have rolling reviews.
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post #64 of 127
5/28/07 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Once again, funding is not a listed concern. As far as popular, he was nominated for an 'early achiever award' (before The Privileged Planet was published.) He is, since coming to ISU, cited more often than anyone else in his department. He has had a notable influence on his field. Don't tell me you can throw those things by the boards.

I will say this, if it's the money, despite not being a reason the University will admit to, I'll backtrack and buy this. Mud is thicker than blood.

I can't believe external funding isn't listed somewhere in the tenure criteria. It's probably not online, but under research in their department criteria I'd bet anything that grants are listed right along with publications. And there's really nothing cynical or greedy about it - sciences like astronomy need the funding to even do the research.
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post #65 of 127
5/28/07 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I can't believe external funding isn't listed somewhere in the tenure criteria. It's probably not online, but under research in their department criteria I'd bet anything that grants are listed right along with publications. And there's really nothing cynical or greedy about it - sciences like astronomy need the funding to even do the research.

I don't think so, but it's a reality all the same. He probably shot himself in the head with the Privileged Planet, and if he didn't, he should have known that rocking the boat that badly would seriously st[r]ain is (earlier?) golden boy reputation. Speculating now.

But, once again, I have callously and recklessly abused the law of unintended consequences; you lovely lefties have to shown me the opposing view on this. It will be easier now to read the DI press releases and see where the ball is going, where the emphasis is being placed.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #66 of 127
5/28/07 at 1:31pm
Honestly, it sounds to me like he had a promising career in grad school, and then once he got this position he got side-tracked with other stuff, including this ID stuff, and didn't do what he was supposed to have been doing.
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post #67 of 127
5/28/07 at 2:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

But, once again, I have callously and recklessly abused the law of unintended consequences; you lovely lefties have to shown me the opposing view on this. It will be easier now to read the DI press releases and see where the ball is going, where the emphasis is being placed.

So, you support what the video presents. That's all I want to know.
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post #68 of 127
5/28/07 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I don't think so, but it's a reality all the same. He probably shot himself in the head with the Privileged Planet, and if he didn't, he should have known that rocking the boat that badly would seriously st[r]ain is (earlier?) golden boy reputation. Speculating now.

That's not necessarily the case. Faculty can publish all kinds of things that are unpopular in the academic community and not jeopardize tenure; BRussell's probably right. The guy probably showed promise 6 years ago and got sidetracked by other things (like writing articles for DI) and didn't do what he was supposed to.

I assume he had some kind of interim review, as well, maybe at the third year? Is there any information about that? Or do we know, for instance, when he was hired by ISU and when he began working with DI? It would be telling if he did his academic work just fine until his third year review and then got sidetracked 3 years ago.
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post #69 of 127
5/28/07 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

So, you support what the video presents. That's all I want to know.

Oh, of course, darling. That's actually me in the video.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
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post #70 of 127
5/28/07 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

That's not necessarily the case. Faculty can publish all kinds of things that are unpopular in the academic community and not jeopardize tenure; BRussell's probably right. The guy probably showed promise 6 years ago and got sidetracked by other things (like writing articles for DI) and didn't do what he was supposed to.

I assume he had some kind of interim review, as well, maybe at the third year? Is there any information about that? Or do we know, for instance, when he was hired by ISU and when he began working with DI? It would be telling if he did his academic work just fine until his third year review and then got sidetracked 3 years ago.

Yes, but his ID book cheesed off plenty of people: in the World article he mentions "an extreme amount of hostility towards me" at the University, with the publishing of his book -- three years ago -- but now we're all speculating.

I think the deadline for a decision is June 8.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #71 of 127
5/28/07 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

The entire edifice of Darwinism is collapsing with each passing discovery.

I remember my born-again sister telling me how evolution was "on the ropes" back in 2000. Funny, I haven't noticed much collapsing of evolution happening over these past seven years.

Nor have I seen much ID research going on, either. I don't mean the usual lame sniping at evolution and popular books -- I mean real research programs, research into testable consequences of ID -- stuff that would help prove ID, not merely disprove evolution.

Even ID's one area of ascendancy for a while -- politics -- doesn't seem to be going so well right now. First the embarrassing loss of the Dover case. Now, the majority of Republican Presidential candidates, including all of the current front runners, accepting evolution.

So, how long until the collapse of "Darwinism" is so apparent that even someone like me, obviously deeply in denial about the terrible, terrible flaws in evolution being uncovered day after day, can deny it no longer? How long until well-established colleges (not fourth-rate Christian colleges) can no longer stem the tide of Darwinian defeat, and begin to bestow the first doctorates in biology for work in ID?

Or will this so-called "collapse" go unrecognized decade after decade after decade by anyone except for the scientifically illiterate and a few scattered scientists, most of them not biologists, because of the evil, entrenched Darwinist Mafia's stranglehold on the world of academia? How long will this anti-ID, anti-God conspiracy excuse... I mean, uh, legitimately explain... the fact that the millions of dollars at the disposal of the Discovery institute are spent almost exclusively on PR campaigns and legal battles, rather than on ground-breaking ID research?
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #72 of 127
5/28/07 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

Really!? Where do I sign up?


I'm sure you enjoy the irony...
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post #73 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I'm sure you enjoy the irony...

I hate to ruin a snappy comeback but I'm afraid I don't.

The fundies are on the march and unless we outbreed them, direct action will have to be taken at some point.
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post #74 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

I remember my born-again sister telling me how evolution was "on the ropes" back in 2000. Funny, I haven't noticed much collapsing of evolution happening over these past seven years.

Nor have I seen much ID research going on, either. I don't mean the usual lame sniping at evolution and popular books -- I mean real research programs, research into testable consequences of ID -- stuff that would help prove ID, not merely disprove evolution.

Even ID's one area of ascendancy for a while -- politics -- doesn't seem to be going so well right now. First the embarrassing loss of the Dover case. Now, the majority of Republican Presidential candidates, including all of the current front runners, accepting evolution.

So, how long until the collapse of "Darwinism" is so apparent that even someone like me, obviously deeply in denial about the terrible, terrible flaws in evolution being uncovered day after day, can deny it no longer? How long until well-established colleges (not fourth-rate Christian colleges) can no longer stem the time of Darwinist defeat, and begin to bestow the first doctorates in biology for work in ID?

Or will this so-called "collapse" go unrecognized decade after decade after decade by anyone except for the scientifically illiterate and a few scattered scientists, most of them not biologists, because of the evil, entrenched Darwinist Mafia's stranglehold on the world of academia? How long will this anti-ID, anti-God conspiracy excuse... I mean, uh, legitimately explain... the fact that the millions of dollars at the disposal of the Discovery institute are spent almost exclusively on PR campaigns and legal battles, rather than on ground-breaking ID research?

I think that you guys in the secular slide of things will continue to look for screw-ups, specifically things like junk DNA, and you'll waste a lot of man years in the process. In the end, I think that you will eventually have to effectively treat nature as though it has been fine tuned from one end to the other, that there are no proverbial vestigial organs, or Junk DNA to be found. That the layers of complexity will become pervasive, (but let's face it we're nearly there.)

Basically, a continued astonishment of how well things are put together -- and a lot of time wasted by assuming it wasn't there in the first place.

As for believing? It's never going to happen. As for the 'mafia,' those who don't agree will go and start their forth-rate universities. In a generation or two, Christians, Muslims, etc., wont have to be insulted or run the predatory secular gauntlet to get their educations. The 'mafia' thing is the best thing to happen to higher education for centuries.

It's like the Christians fighting TV sex/violence -- why? -- the best thing in the world would have been to have television programming be the mindless hyper-purified raunch that it is today, 20 years ago. The sooner enough fundies turn on the tube and drop their eye-teeth, is the sooner it accurately self-identifies itself. The same goes with academia (speaking reaaaaaaly broadly now) I'd make Ward Chruchill the dean of the college he worked at -- I'd let Churchill, Micheal Moore, and Larry Flynt run the FCC.

You can only control us if you can force us into your institutions. I think the time is coming when the religious will simply unlpug, build their own cultural infrastructure, and stop wasting their time trying to imagine that the catcalls are either entertainment, or education, or anything at all constructive.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #75 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I think the time is coming when the religious will simply unlpug, build their own cultural infrastructure, and stop wasting their time trying to imagine that the catcalls are either entertainment, or education, or anything at all constructive.

Yes, please, go away and further marginalize yourselves.
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post #76 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Yes, please, go away and further marginalize yourselves.

Yes, the same way the Christians marginalized themselves with respect to Rome.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #77 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

I hate to ruin a snappy comeback but I'm afraid I don't.

The fundies are on the march and unless we outbreed them, direct action will have to be taken at some point.

Oh, go start a militia or something.

I just think that an anti-Christian crusader named Aslan (from Narnia) is a bit, well, "funny."
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post #78 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Oh, of course, darling. That's actually me in the video.

Ok...enjoy the "museum"...



...
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post #79 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:25pm
this thread got all serious!

still the punchline was...

"if you trade it in for the Islamist one, it will blow itself up."
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post #80 of 127
5/28/07 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Oh, go start a militia or something.

I just think that an anti-Christian crusader named Aslan (from Narnia) is a bit, well, "funny."

You know, I've been called on that before, but it was before i knew of C.S. Lewis' other writings. Meh, I still like the nick and the stories.

Rather than a militia, I was thinking something along the lines of making it socially acceptable to publicly humiliate Christians for their beliefs. Something that other people would see and cause them to question their faith. Obviously, those who have already decided on a life of ignorance will be beyond help but I think we can really do something for people who are on the fence, kids, agnostics, Sunday Christians, etc.
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