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Call for retaliation - Page 5

post #161 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

You do realise that Muslims hold Jesus Christ in the highest regard?

Just not Christians.

Are we the apes or the dogs? I can not remember which way it goes with the Jews and Christians.
post #162 of 303
One more thing - that might bring some of what I said earlier into context.

Israel, scriptually, is a spiritual state of mind one achieves when they fully accept God into their hearts and let him lead the way.

Israel, in correct scriptual context, therefore can be anywhere on Earth. It is someone who spiritually "Walks with God" to the 'second' Jerusalem.

The land of Israel, is the collective body of people who have accepted God to lead their way.

Israel isn't someone who justifies killing women and children to get a bunk up into heaven. (FUNDIES)

Israel isn't a bunch of Zionist fascists hijacking the general ignorance and desperation of a spiritually needy nation to persecute the defenceless. (ZIONISTS)
post #163 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

Just not Christians.

Are we the apes or the dogs? I can not remember which way it goes with the Jews and Christians.

Jesus was a jew, christianity was created by his followers after the jews denied jesus as the savior.
About Solomon that would make a great christian soap opera,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon
Quote:
Succession
According to the biblical book of 1 Kings, when David was "old and stricken" he "gat no heat":
2 Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat. 3 So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4 And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not. 1 Kings 1:2-4

When Adonijah, the fourth son of David and heir-apparent to the throne after the death of his elder brothers Amnon and Absalom, heard this he acted to have himself be declared king. But Bathsheba (Solomon's mother) and Nathan induced David to give orders that his younger son Solomon should immediately be proclaimed king. Adonijah fled and took refuge at the altar, and received pardon for his conduct from Solomon on the condition that he showed himself "a worthy man" (1 Kings 1:5-53).

Adonijah asked to marry Abishag the Shunammite, but Solomon denied authorization for such an engagement, although Bathsheba now pleaded on Adonijah's behalf. He was then seized and put to death (1 Kings 2:13-25).
post #164 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

One more thing - that might bring some of what I said earlier into context.

Israel, scriptually, is a spiritual state of mind one achieves when they fully accept God into their hearts and let him lead the way.

Israel, in correct scriptual context, therefore can be anywhere on Earth. It is someone who spiritually "Walks with God" to the 'second' Jerusalem.

Israel isn't someone who justifies killing women and children to get a bunk up into heaven.
Israel isn't a bunch of Zionist fascists hijacking the general ignorance and desperation of a supportive nation to persecute the defenceless.

(there is no heaven in judaism)
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post #165 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

(there is no heaven in judaism)

what is your point? where did I mention heaven except in context of Xians?
post #166 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

what is your point? where did I mention heaven except in context of Xians?

You said:

"Israel isn't someone who justifies killing women and children to get a bunk up into heaven."

just saying....
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post #167 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

Just not Christians.

Are we the apes or the dogs? I can not remember which way it goes with the Jews and Christians.

Im not sure, do you have an overriding desire to swing from trees, or bark?
post #168 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

You said:

"Israel isn't someone who justifies killing women and children to get a bunk up into heaven."

just saying....

I would refer you to my previous post in describing the operation of Fundamentalist Xianity my good fellow.

Quote:
American Christians are so desperate for Israel to be a physical place because of this ridiculous Rapture Theory, that they are prepared to finance and support enormous amounts of unhinged evil deeds to get into heaven.

Im sure those pearly gates will be slammed in their face.
post #169 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

Its not a secret that Solomons empire (and his temple) is mythical and/or spiritual, you just have to be bothered to shake off the 'programming' you are given from birth and spend alot of time trying to get to the bottom of the matter.

I did it because I cared enough to want to know the truth - if you want to know the truth, you could do it aswell.

I have read up on it and whilst there maybe the usual exaggerations surrounding his story, it would seem it describes an historical figure.

Just because of the stories about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree are probably fictional doesn't mean that he wasn't an historical person.

People embellish, invent and exaggerate and only value a story if it is entertaining and interesting.

Many people make the mistake of jumping to the invalid conclusion that if one or more parts of a story can be proved or disproved, then all or none of the story is true.
post #170 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

Im not sure, do you have an overriding desire to swing from trees, or bark?

I found the source. According to Saudi Wahabi textbooks, Jews are apes and Christians are dogs and pigs.

I can feel the love from the one true religion (and the one true people).
post #171 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

I have read up on it and whilst there maybe the usual exaggerations surrounding his story, it would seem it describes an historical figure.

Just because of the stories about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree are probably fictional doesn't mean that he wasn't an historical person.

People embellish, invent and exaggerate and only value a story if it is entertaining and interesting.

Many people make the mistake of jumping to the invalid conclusion that if one or more parts of a story can be proved or disproved, then all or none of the story is true.

I can only suggest then, that there is much you havn't found out.

And ponder this... if a person exists in history (really) but the account of them is so distorted, exaggerated and mythicized so that the record bares no resemblance to their physical lives and would only leave us in a state of delusion, - did the person on record really exist?

Maybe Abraham, Maybe Moses, Maybe Joseph, Maybe Solomon, Maybe David, Maybe Noah,... May be there really were people with these names who really did live thousands of years ago in about the right place...

...but when it is demonstratable, that the stories of these people have been hacked in to reality from a mishmash Astrology and preceeding lore and religion and philosophy, and that there is a clear spiritual meaning behind all these people and their exploits, none of which exists in the physical world, but are all clearly ideas to represent states of mind, and are allegories to teach us philosophical principles- which one can discover for themselves if they can be bothered, then who gives a flying fuck (except the fundies and fascists who wage war and deception) if there was some bloke called David who lived 5000 years ago?
post #172 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

I found the source. According to Saudi Wahabi textbooks, Jews are apes and Christians are dogs and pigs.

Ah can feel the love from the one true religion (and the one true people).

Care to share the source?

Isn't the Wahabi sect an offshoot, like Falwell's church was, is a bastardization of Christianty?
post #173 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

I found the source. According to Saudi Wahabi textbooks, Jews are apes and Christians are dogs and pigs.

I can feel the love from the one true religion (and the one true people).

You're quite amusing.
post #174 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Care to share the source?

Isn't the Wahabi sect an offshoot, like Falwell's church was, is a bastardization of Christianty?

Its a fascist bastardization of Islam, mainly practised in that lovely place of human rights abuses, Saudi Arabia... the natural friends of the US.... spreading freedom, liberty and democracy - Not.
post #175 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

Its a fascist bastardization of Islam, mainly practised in that lovely place of human rights abuses, Saudi Arabia... the natural friends of the US.... spreading freedom, liberty and democracy - Not.

Don't be shy, funding and recruiting terrorists.
post #176 of 303
Quote:

"The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing."

Quote:
Amnesty International: Israeli soldiers are now using Palestinian families as human shields

Then these should be documented and IDF held responsible for violations against Geneva convention. We as the US should insist on it although under Bush that never would have happened. Under Obama there is hope although we DO have our own house cleaning to do after 8 years.

Quote:
Yes, BOTH do this. Does that still make it RIGHT?

No. So why do you justify Hamas doing it? Because they only have small arms, mortars and rockets? Then perhaps they shouldn't be lobbing rockets at Israel and giving them a pretext for invasion.

Oh, because Israel is the bad guy. So therefore Hamas is blameless.

Abandoned the Chechnya argument have we? The IDF are not angels. But they sure as hell aren't devils in comparison to REAL butchers.
post #177 of 303
I dont see anyone defending the actions of Hamas.

The mistake here is to think that because one side is condemned, then support automatically goes to the other side.

Big Mistake.
post #178 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Abandoned the Chechnya argument have we? The IDF are not angels. But they sure as hell aren't devils in comparison to REAL butchers.

The Russians have nothing as systematic and efficient as what the Nazis had, so the Nazis win.

Oh wait.
post #179 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Then these should be documented and IDF held responsible for violations against Geneva convention.

You might have to put the U.S. on that docket too.

U.S. Weapons used in Gaza paid for by U.S. taxpayers is a violation of the Arms Export Control Act.

Quote:
Madam Speaker, we cannot truly celebrate a new year, a new Congress and a new administration if all we see is the same old destruction in the Middle East with U.S. weapons being illegally used to kill children. I oppose Hamas' rocket attacks on Israel. The rocket attacks, even to try to end the blockade, have no moral justification, are illegal, and must stop.

But how can Israel claim self-defense when it bombs Gaza, which has no army, no air force, no navy, and has been under a constant blockade? How can Israel claim self-defense when its bombs destroy U.N. schools, killing children? The children of Palestinians and the children of Israel both deserve life. But the lives of the children of Gaza are cynically discounted as human shields. Massacres are being rationalized. Israel's "moral high ground" in Gaza, a growing pile of small bones in a graveyard.

The administration knows Israel is using U.S. weapons, paid for by U.S. taxpayers, with disproportionate force, creating a collective punishment of Gazans, assuring an escalation of conflict, clear violations of the Arms Export Control Act. Israel was given U.S. weapons on condition they would not be used for aggression or escalation. This outgoing administration must finally stand for the rule of law, not the rule of force.

~ Dennis Kucinich

40 cents of every income tax dollar goes to the military. By paying taxes we are supporting the invasion of Iraq and the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Now we have Gaza blood on our hands.

Oh, and did you know it is a Federal crime to boycott Israel?

The "freedom" in here is stifling.
post #180 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

You might have to put the U.S. on that docket too.

U.S. Weapons used in Gaza paid for by U.S. taxpayers is a violation of the Arms Export Control Act.



40 cents of every income tax dollar goes to the military. By paying taxes we are supporting the invasion of Iraq and the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Now we have Gaza blood on our hands.

Oh, and did you know it is a Federal crime to boycott Israel?

The "freedom" in here is stifling.

wow! 5 years in prison for refusing to trade with Israel!

I wonder, when Israel has exterminated every Palestinian, Gazan and Lebanese and America has invaded Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Kuwait - and turned them into another Iraq, and the empire of Zion extends all across the Middle East...

...When Jesus still doesn't turn up to Rapture the fools - WHO IS NEXT?
post #181 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

wow! 5 years in prison for refusing to trade with Israel!

I wonder, when Israel has exterminated every Palestinian, Gazan and Lebanese and America has invaded Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Kuwait - and turned them into another Iraq, and the empire of Zion extends all across the Middle East...

...When Jesus still doesn't turn up to Rapture the fools - WHO IS NEXT?

yeah and since we are hypothesizing just for the sake of making shit up, what happens after the swedes butcher every child in Mexico?WHO IS NEXT!?!?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #182 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Care to share the source?

Isn't the Wahabi sect an offshoot, like Falwell's church was, is a bastardization of Christianty?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...901769_pf.html

Yes, Wahhabism is a 250 year old offshoot of the Sunnis, based on the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab which advocated a strict return to the original Koran and Hadiths. It is the official version of Islam in Saudi Arabia which is the heart of Islam. Also very popular in the surrounding countries and the many mosques and madrases it finances from the Saudi oil money.

Fascinating that you compare it to some Christian sects, they actually call themselves "The Unitarians". There is no equivalent though in Christianity as it is the state religion of the country at the most holy centre of Islam, Saudi Arabia, because they went into a political alliance with the Saudi princes, supporting them in return for unfettered religious power.

You can not quite compare the various forms of Islam though with the many Christian sects as Islam has the absolute direct connection with the absolutely true Koran and anyone can be inspired by God to proselytise and teach the Koran. As such there are no central authorities such as in Western churches.

The complication is that since the Koran prescribes the death penalty for apostasy (the renouncing of the faith) muslims have a habit of being fairly liberal with the definition of apostasy. Anyone who deviates from what you reckon is the one true faith is an apostate. This is what causes so much of the deadly strife within and without Islam.

It is why the wonderfully peaceful and rational Baha'i have been executed in Iran and other places and have had to find refuge in Haifa of all places.

I suppose it is just another of those "quality phrases" of Bush when he describes Islam (cobbled under one title) as a "religion of peace". It never was and never will be, founded and expanded by murder, forced conversion, mass rape and looting.

I highly recommend reading the Koran, preferably a well annotated version as can be found in Pakistani publications. Nearly everyone has strange 3rd hand ideas of what it is and what it says thinking it is just equivalent to the monotheism of Judaism, Christianity and some forms of Buddhism.
post #183 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

WHO IS NEXT?

More like what...



[insert nuclear weapon capable country here]
post #184 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

I dont see anyone defending the actions of Hamas.

The mistake here is to think that because one side is condemned, then support automatically goes to the other side.

Big Mistake.

Not explicitly. They just rationalize their actions.

Hamas:
-is standing [valiantly?] between the Palestinians and the genocidal Jews.
-is not hiding behind civilians, that is propagada.
-is hiding behind civilians, but not really because Gaza is so densely they have no choice.
-is not hiding behind civilians, israel just chooses to focus their bombing in densely populated areas.
-is hiding behind civilians, but so are the IDF.


That's just this comments on just the hiding part of this thread.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #185 of 303
An agreement has been reached by Arab and Western nations for a UNSC resolution calling for a cease fire in Gaza.

Unfortunately, this a waste of time.... Its that insanity thing all over again... repeating the same action expecting a different result...
To draft a UNSC resolution regarding anything to do with Israel is a godamned fucking joke. Look at the history: A large number of these is where Israel has flagrantly breached international law and the Geneva Convention, and the UNSC invokes language such as such as... the UN "deplores", "demands", "condemns", "censures", "expresses deep concern", deeply regrets, et cetera. et cetera.
And what has happened each time? The US has vetoed anything that requests, or demands, or recommends, or whatever, that Israel act within international law.

Such an appalling list of crimes with impunity make one wonder "who are the rogue nations here"?
Half the problem is that nobody in the US dares criticize Israel for fear of tarring themselves with an "antisemitic" label. The other half of the problem is that the Israelis know this very well, and act on it every day.

Waiting for the veto....
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post #186 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

An agreement has been reached by Arab and Western nations for a UNSC resolution calling for a cease fire in Gaza.

Unfortunately, this a waste of time.... Its that insanity thing all over again... repeating the same action expecting a different result...
To draft a UNSC resolution regarding anything to do with Israel is a godamned fucking joke. Look at the history: A large number of these is where Israel has flagrantly breached international law and the Geneva Convention, and the UNSC invokes language such as such as... the UN "deplores", "demands", "condemns", "censures", "expresses deep concern", deeply regrets, et cetera. et cetera.
And what has happened each time? The US has vetoed anything that requests, or demands, or recommends, or whatever, that Israel act within international law.

Such an appalling list of crimes with impunity make one wonder "who are the rogue nations here"?
Half the problem is that nobody in the US dares criticize Israel for fear of tarring themselves with an "antisemitic" label. The other half of the problem is that the Israelis know this very well, and act on it every day.

Waiting for the veto....

Sammi, there you go again, ranting and raving before they even have a chance to prove you right. And you very well could be right. The US will likely take steps to water it down or veto it (didn't it already pass?). Israel will probably ignore it (as will Hamas). But, before anyone gets the chance, here comes Sammi to pre-emptively condemn their possible future actions.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #187 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Sammi, there you go again, ranting and raving before they even have a chance to prove you right. And you very well could be right. The US will likely take steps to water it down or veto it (didn't it already pass?). Israel will probably ignore it (as will Hamas). But, before anyone gets the chance, here comes Sammi to pre-emptively condemn their possible future actions.

Where have you been boy? How old are you? How many U.N. resolutions does Israel need to stop this madness? How many more times in MY lifetime will I see them vetoed, ignored and struck down?

And Congress? The US Congress is Israeli occupied territory also. I really don't get it. What is going on here? Who owns this country? This brutal oppression displayed by the Israeli government should be roundly condemned by the public and elected officials. It is enraging that this genocide is being paid for with our tax dollars and the majority seems to love it. Why is there such an overwhelming media blackout? And is the unwavering congressional support to be explained by AIPAC campaign donations?

Grow up. They have never and will never stop until the Palestinians as a people, A RACE is removed from the face of the Earth.
post #188 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Sammi, there you go again, ranting and raving before they even have a chance to prove you right. And you very well could be right. The US will likely take steps to water it down or veto it (didn't it already pass?). Israel will probably ignore it (as will Hamas). But, before anyone gets the chance, here comes Sammi to pre-emptively condemn their possible future actions.

I was under the impression that under the new rules, we were not allowed to post any comments about members of AI and we were only allowed to discuss the issues they raised. I have come to the conclusion that I WILL adhere to Lundy rules 100% - and expect everyone else to be held to the same standard.

This seems like a condescending rant about Sammi rather than anything of merit to the discussion.

Can you make this clear Lundy, it seems rather dubious to be dishing out infractions for 'agreeing with Artman' 'making a Jew joke' and 'trying to laugh off blatant provocation' - while rants about member habits are allowed free pass.
post #189 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

yeah and since we are hypothesizing just for the sake of making shit up, what happens after the swedes butcher every child in Mexico?WHO IS NEXT!?!?

I do object to your tone, it is very hostile, rude and impolite. I was under the impression that such behavior would incur an infraction.

But lets address the points.
Sweden is one of the most peaceful countries in the world, and has been for a very long time. It has never invaded Mexico, nor I guess it ever will.

Unlike Israel - the country we are discussing, which after its quasi-illegal formation, has been on a continual path of expansion and extermination of the ethnics, in complete disregard of all worldwide opinion, (except that rogue state of the US), who support their genocide, because it gives a majority of its citizens a warm fuzzy feeling that Jesus is about to return.

It would be much better for everyone if the Zionist state of Israel were to just 'disappear'
post #190 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

I do object to your tone, it is very hostile, rude and impolite. I was under the impression that such behavior would incur an infraction.

Weren't you the guy who, a couple of pages ago, said I should be killed because I was too stupid to live?
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post #191 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Half the problem is that nobody in the US dares criticize Israel for fear of tarring themselves with an "antisemitic" label. The other half of the problem is that the Israelis know this very well, and act on it every day.

They are exceptionally good at character assassination.

Look at the amount of abuse levelled in this thread against people who do not support the CARPET BOMBING of innocent men, women and children

Sadly, such an attitute is the new paradigm, assassinate the people who will stand up for decent moral judgement and humanity.

Why is there only a small handful of us who are willing to stand up for what is right?

Where are the Christians? They do not have much to say. No guesses why not.
Where are the Muslims? They seem not to have much to say.
Where are...I think we've heard enough from the people claiming to be Jews.

The fact is, the small handful of people who have stood up and voiced opinion against the carpet bombing of innocents, seems to me - to be the God Damned ATHIESTS.
post #192 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Weren't you the guy who, a couple of pages ago, said I should be killed because I was too stupid to live?

Yes I was, I apologize. Let me explain.

I thought this harsh moderation thing was 'just a joke' that would pass once the person who caused it had calmed down abit. Clearly 6 months down the line, here we are.

Yes Im sorry that Obama won the election.

However, as it is boring to keep reregistering, and as Lundy has made it perfectly clear, that there is a zero tolerance policy (towards me atleast) for making any kind of comment, jokes that can be taken wrongly, agreeing with someone with sarcasm, just about anything - except the discussion, I have decided to adhere to his wishes.

I do recall the post you mention, and I will elaborate,

I was making a philosophical point, that if you hold human life in such disregard, then it would not be morally reprehensible if someone were to adopt the same principle when dealing with you - and murder you. At very worse, even if they were completely wrong in their judgement, then they would be no worse morally for killing you, because you wish it on them.
post #193 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

"Madam Speaker, we cannot truly celebrate a new year, a new Congress and a new administration if all we see is the same old destruction in the Middle East with U.S. weapons being illegally used to kill children. I oppose Hamas' rocket attacks on Israel. The rocket attacks, even to try to end the blockade, have no moral justification, are illegal, and must stop.

But how can Israel claim self-defense when it bombs Gaza, which has no army, no air force, no navy, and has been under a constant blockade? How can Israel claim self-defense when its bombs destroy U.N. schools, killing children? The children of Palestinians and the children of Israel both deserve life. But the lives of the children of Gaza are cynically discounted as human shields. Massacres are being rationalized. Israel's "moral high ground" in Gaza, a growing pile of small bones in a graveyard.

The administration knows Israel is using U.S. weapons, paid for by U.S. taxpayers, with disproportionate force, creating a collective punishment of Gazans, assuring an escalation of conflict, clear violations of the Arms Export Control Act. Israel was given U.S. weapons on condition they would not be used for aggression or escalation. This outgoing administration must finally stand for the rule of law, not the rule of force.

- Dennis Kucinich"

Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul are two individuals which are truly individual. Individuals not bought off by AIPAC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYNLXYLM44c

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08gTWqWrI4M

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #194 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

I was making a philosophical point, that if you hold human life in such disregard, then it would not be morally reprehensible if someone were to adopt the same principle when dealing with you - and murder you. At very worse, even if they were completely wrong in their judgement, then they would be no worse morally for killing you, because you wish it on them.

Its not that I want people to die, particularly - its that I am an "ends justify the means" person. If you could make a choice, where 1000 people are killed at your command, and it saved the lives of a million other people, would you choose to have those people killed?

There are two schools of thought there - a Utilitarian would kill the people, a Dentologist would rather let the million die rather than kill one person himself. People who object to the Iraq war are mostly Dentologists (Saddam killed 100K/year, about what we killed during the worst years of the Iraq war, and now it is much fewer people being killed, so in the end the Iraq war saved lives over a 10 year time period).

If Israel can kill the bulk of Hamas, and thereby come to peace with the Palestinians, then it was worth killing those people from Utilitarian point of view.
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post #195 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Not explicitly. They just rationalize their actions.

Hamas:
-is standing [valiantly?] between the Palestinians and the genocidal Jews.
-is not hiding behind civilians, that is propagada.
-is hiding behind civilians, but not really because Gaza is so densely they have no choice.
-is not hiding behind civilians, israel just chooses to focus their bombing in densely populated areas.
-is hiding behind civilians, but so are the IDF.


That's just this comments on just the hiding part of this thread.

Lets be honest, if the Poles, Russians and Jews had managed to lob a home made rocket into Germany while they were being held in Auschwitz, we wouldn't be calling them terrorists.
post #196 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Its not that I want people to die, particularly - its that I am an "ends justify the means" person. If you could make a choice, where 1000 people are killed at your command, and it saved the lives of a million other people, would you choose to have those people killed?

There are two schools of thought there - a Utilitarian would kill the people, a Dentologist would rather let the million die rather than kill one person himself. People who object to the Iraq war are mostly Dentologists (Saddam killed 100K/year, about what we killed during the worst years of the Iraq war, and now it is much fewer people being killed, so in the end the Iraq war saved lives over a 10 year time period).

If Israel can kill the bulk of Hamas, and thereby come to peace with the Palestinians, then it was worth killing those people from Utilitarian point of view.

If you're genuine in your approach as you say you are then you should be swapping sides.

The permanent solution with the least amount of killing would be to exterminate Israel.
post #197 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

They are exceptionally good at character assassination.

Look at the amount of abuse levelled in this thread against people who do not support the CARPET BOMBING of innocent men, women and children

Sadly, such an attitute is the new paradigm, assassinate the people who will stand up for decent moral judgement and humanity.

Why is there only a small handful of us who are willing to stand up for what is right?

Where are the Christians? They do not have much to say. No guesses why not.


The fact is, the small handful of people who have stood up and voiced opinion against the carpet bombing of innocents, seems to me - to be the God Damned ATHIESTS.

I am a Christian and I sent out an email this very morning condemning the actions of the Israeli government concerning their killing of innocent women and children civilians in Gaza.

I realize many lazy self described "Christians" seem to be missing in action in calling this immorality what it is.

I am not one of them.

Fellows

Here is the email I sent off this morning to many people I know:
Once again my main man Ron Paul is 100% Right with regard to our failed
>US foreign policy / budgetary and moral missteps.
>
>The Bible tells us to support Israel but I am not so sure that a blank
>check of blind support is (how we actually support them).
>
>Then to just sit by and not say anything about the killing of 100's of
>innocent women and children civilians is wrong and hardly Christian in
>my book.
>
>I believe Jesus would have us to love all people. Neighbor and enemy.
>
>It is cowardly to just embolden the Israeli government via blind and
>automatic US government support to act ever more aggressively in the act
>of killing their neighbor / enemy.
>
>Maybe they need to know Jesus.
>
>Bush just giving them the good old boy nod of approval is just plain
>wrong and immoral.
>
>Don't tell me yeah but this is war. God's principles are not null and
>void or swept under the rug EVER. They Stand and they stand forever.
>They are not conditionally void in "times of war".
>
>The problem is that mankind lives in the world as the world lives
>influenced by worldly and satanic influences (let's be honest for
>goodness sake). We need the Fruits of the Spirit but until we actually
>live according to God's will we can forget the fruits.
>
>Look at the prospects of this time in which we live.... the economy etc.
>We need to humble ourselves and we need to stand for morality. Prayer
>for peace as well. Not just some relative morality of our choosing but
>rather, God's morality.
>
>The leaders of the world are failing... (big surprise) let's not be
>willing idiots who serve only to perpetuate more of the same status quo
>of turning a blind eye or worse supporting evil acts against humanity.
>
>How we treat or serve our fellow man (neighbor and / or enemy) is how we
>treat or serve our loving saviour.
>
>Jesus deserves one heck of a lot more out of us all.
>
>God Bless,
>
>Dale

Here is a reply from one of the people:
I love you Dale, but I couldn't disagree with you more.

It's bulls**t to think that Israel should allow Hamas to lob rockets
indiscriminately into their country without repercussions. What other
country on earth would allow that to happen without any retribution?

Hamas, and their counterparts, need to be decimated. The very fact that
they hide behind innocent people by congregating and storing weapons in
their schools, hospitals, mosques and homes to do their dastardly deeds
only speaks to their cowardice, not Israel's (or the US's for supporting
them). The blood of those civilians who are dying is on their heads.

I don't believe any Israeli (official or otherwise prominent) has ever
said that Palestine should be "driven into the sea" or has waged war
specifically against one people-group as these terror organizations
have. Israel pulled out of Gaza long ago and left the Palestinians to
their own rule and this is what has resulted. It was Hamas who violated
the "peace" agreement, not Israel. It's a shame that they have created
a culture where strapping bombs to your children and sending them into
crowded marketplaces to kill as many "innocent women and children" as
possible is overlooked by the world community, but when a nation says,
"enough is enough," they are decried as violent and unreasonable.

Jesus did say love your neighbor. He also said, "Do not suppose that I
have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace,
but a sword." (Matthew 10:34) The Bible says there is a time for war
and a time for peace - I think when one culture is hell-bent on
annihilating another and it is so ingrained in their mindset that reason
and negotiation are no longer options, that it is a time for war.

I, for one, hope Israel wipes them off the map.

xxxxx

How do I reply to this reply...

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #198 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

If you're genuine in your approach as you say you are then you should be swapping sides.

The permanent solution with the least amount of killing would be to exterminate Israel.

Not even close. Any attempt to exterminate Israel would result in WWIII, as we almost saw in 1973. It is a heck of a lot easier to exterminate Hamas, ship in a crapload of Jews, and then integrate the two halves of the country once the Jews have a voting majority and they can feel safe enough to let the Palestinians get the vote.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #199 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If Israel can kill the bulk of Hamas, and thereby come to peace with the Palestinians, then it was worth killing those people from Utilitarian point of view.

Very strong and intelligent reasoning there. Except that Israeli's methods have always come in question as far as the rules of engagement, conventional rules and laws of "war" (if you can call it that).

Unfortunately, they've been doing this too long. Again, at has reached the point where now even Fatah are rallying to Hamas.

The West Bank: We're all Hamas now - supporters of Fatah unite behind enemy

Quote:
Even if Israel wins on the battlefield or in the diplomatic corridors it is already paying the price of its Gaza onslaught in intensified hatred in the hearts of its Palestinian neighbours in the West Bank. The campaign also appears to be increasing public scepticism about the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's chosen path of negotiations as the way to establish an independent state alongside Israel.

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements. This existing frustration –which helped Hamas defeat Mr Abbas's Fatah movement in the 2006 elections – is now combined with popular anger and dismay at the carnage among fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

In this situation, ends won't justify means. The means are being questioned here and being called wrong. On all sides. With every Gazan killed another 10-100 angry young men take their place. This aggression doesn't stop and the retaliation and outrage won't either unless a settlement can be reached.

But I'm not so sure about that. So maybe your final solution may be the only choice.

...and five steps back for humanity.
post #200 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

Sweden is one of the most peaceful countries in the world, and has been for a very long time. It has never invaded Mexico, nor I guess it ever will.'

If we want Israel to follow in the footsteps of Sweden and Switzerland, both once extremely aggressive, it too will have to suffer crushing defeats to appreciate the merits of taking a peaceful path.

Unfortunately a crushing defeat for Israel will mean its demise, unless it is a Pyrrhic victory where it wins but it costs so much they may as well have lost.

The last Lebanon war came close to that, but it wasn't Israel who really paid for that disaster, so it was classified by Israelis as a mistake rather than sheer stupidity.

Israeli policy of perpetually crushing Palestinians is an eternal use of the stick with no carrot in sight. That might work on a donkey but on men it just focusses them on revenge. They have successfully hardened the Palestinians whilst they grow soft as prosperity replaces idealism.

On the horizon is the Arab population bomb as well. I can't see how Israel will escape an eventual retreat into minority Apartheid rule within even its own borders.
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