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post #201 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

The Russians have nothing as systematic and efficient as what the Nazis had, so the Nazis win.

Answer: I was wrong but choose not to admit it and will try to deflect the issue elsewhere.

Mkay.

Oh, you're wrong again. Stalin killed as many of his own people as Hitler. In 1932-1933 Stalin killed seven million in the Ukraine (estimates vary from 2.2M to 8M depending on whether you count just inside modern Ukraine, ethnic Ukranians, or victims across all of the USSR). Google Holodomor.

The USSR killed two million muslims in concentration camps: Chechens, Ingush, Tatars, Tajiks, Baskirs, Kazaks. The most recent chechen fighters are grandchildren of the survivors of these concentration camps.

They killed on the order of two million ethnic germans between 45-47.

No, sadly, the Nazis don't win. We whitewashed a lot of the Soviet atrocities because of WWII.

To compare the wrong doing Israel does and real genocide/ethnic cleansing really cheapens the unimaginable horror of true evil. You can imagine 600 dead. Even 600 dead children. Can you imagine 6 million dead people? I cannot beyond the pictures of piles of skulls from Cambodia...a mere 1.4 million dead.
post #202 of 303

Revisionist article. In 2005 Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza. No more IDF. No more police. 21 settlements withdrawn, some with expensive greenhouse infrastructure left in place for the Palistinians to use ($100M worth of equipment purchased by private money for $15M by the Economic Cooperation Foundation for the Palistinians). Greenhouses that had generated $100M in exports to Europe.

They also withdrew from four west bank settlements.

The only thing they probably should have done was to leave the Erez industrial zone intact.

But in any case, the biggest Israeli concession ever resulted in what? A slap in the face with a massive Hamas victory. Hamas firing rockets at Israel from Gaza, from the Gush Katif areas where many of the greenhouses were. Effectively keeping away the Jewish consultants needed to keep the greenhouses running.

Reap what you sow. Between Fatah and Hamas the Palistinians have deliberately choosen leaders that will do nothing but increase their misery for another generation.
post #203 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

I dont see anyone defending the actions of Hamas.

but, then again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

Lets be honest, if the Poles, Russians and Jews had managed to lob a home made rocket into Germany while they were being held in Auschwitz, we wouldn't be calling them terrorists.

standing by what you write does not mean just writing two opposing statements and hoping no one catches it.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #204 of 303
This is the kind of thing for which we the US taxpayers are forking out our hard earned cash:

Quote:
The U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said Israeli troops evacuated Palestinian civilians to a house in the Zeitoun neighborhood on Jan. 4, then shelled the building 24 hours later.

The US taxpayers are (without any choice in the matter) sponsoring war crimes and state terrorism by Israel. Nice.

To Tulkas, Vinea and the other apologists for Zionist terrorism and war crimes? Does this meet with your approval and satisfaction?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #205 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

This is the kind of thing for which we the US taxpayers are forking out our hard earned cash:



The US taxpayers are (without any choice in the matter) sponsoring war crimes and state terrorism by Israel. Nice.

To Tulkas, Vinea and the other apologists for Zionist terrorism and war crimes? Does this meet with your approval and satisfaction?

There you go again....have I defended any actions by the Israelis or IDF in this thread? If I toss out the idea that you have been shooting black school children, does that make it true?

Anyhoo, if crimes have been committed, then those committing them should be held responsible, from both sides. If the IDF or its members have committed war crimes, will they be charged and tried in court? Possibly not. Certainly no members of Hamas will be.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #206 of 303
People can whine, moan and even condone all they want, but in the end those Palestinians are as doomed as mastodons as long as the U.S. subsidizes Israel's war machine.
post #207 of 303
Can't we just pay Jordan a couple hundred billion to let them all move there?
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #208 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Reap what you sow. Between Fatah and Hamas the Palistinians have deliberately choosen leaders that will do nothing but increase their misery for another generation.

Ron Paul: Israel Created Hamas!

Well, at that time, it seemed like a good idea I guess, just like the Taliban.

Also:

Quote:
To compare the wrong doing Israel does and real genocide/ethnic cleansing really cheapens the unimaginable horror of true evil. You can imagine 600 dead. Even 600 dead children. Can you imagine 6 million dead people? I cannot beyond the pictures of piles of skulls from Cambodia...a mere 1.4 million dead.

This is history. I'm talking about current events. We can continue to make comparisons all the way back to the beginning of civilization.

WE (the U.S.) have supplied and financed 92 billion dollars * in "aid" to Israel, more than any other aid we have given to other countries combined.

We have enabled this catastrophe to happen.

You see, it doesn't matter to me how many people (Israeli, Palestinian, Iraqi, Afghan, American, British, etc...) die, they shouldn't die at all. Not for these reasons.

Anyone else thinks otherwise is a sad individual.

* edit: $114 Billion total direct U.S. aid.
post #209 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

People can whine, moan and even condone all they want, but in the end those Palestinians are as doomed as mastodons as long as the U.S. subsidizes Israel's war machine.

US subsidies to Israel: $2B
Israel GDP: $161.9B

No more US subsidies today would be annoying for Israel but not really affect the balance of power given they've built a mostly functional economy.

No Israel also amusingly means no Intel Macs...the Core2 chips were designed in Haifa as well as the 65nm and 45nm process. Penryns come from the Kiryat Gat fab 28.

I recommend that you boycott all things Intel and anyone else that does business in Israel in protest since you are so outraged. Enjoy your AMD based machine.
post #210 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

This is history. I'm talking about current events. We can continue to make comparisons all the way back to the beginning of civilization.

No, you're deliberately using words that do not apply.

Quote:
WE (the U.S.) have supplied and financed 92 billion dollars * in "aid" to Israel, more than any other aid we have given to other countries combined.

We have enabled this catastrophe to happen.

We have enabled a functional democracy in the middle east that actually LIKES us. One that is technologically advanced and directly stimulates the US economy AND technology base.

We have enabled many catastrophes over the years by both action and inaction. Funding Israel isn't one of them.

Compare the outcome of the aid given to Arab countries by the USSR and the US aid to Israel and look at the difference. Much of the aid we gave was in our interest to counter Soviet influence post WWII.

Which foremerly soviet aligned arab country actually produces anything besides oil?

Oh...and US aid to Israel is currently about a third of our total aid to everyone.

In 2008 dollars the US Marshall plan cost $115.3B.

If you count the Vietnam war as a subsidy to S. Vietnam that was $698B in 2008 dollars...$111B in actual cost.

So no, it is not a true statement that Israel has gotten more aid than everyone else combined. If you count the direct war support for S. Vietnam they are a distant second (US aid total to Israel is $140B in 2003 dollars).

Of all the countries we've ever supported in this manner Israel, Taiwan and South Korea seem like the best in ROI. Japan if you count that but that's more for rebuilding what we blew up.

Quote:
You see, it doesn't matter to me how many people (Israeli, Palestinian, Iraqi, Afghan, American, British, etc...) die, they shouldn't die at all. Not for these reasons.

Anyone else thinks otherwise is a sad individual.

Yes. The problem is that some folks want to kill you. How you choose to respond depends on a myriad of factors but killing them first is a valid, moral and ethical method of self defense.
post #211 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

We have enabled a function democracy in the middle east that actually LIKES us. One that is technologically advanced and directly stimulates the US economy AND technology base.

I'm tired and had a rough day at work so I'll only reply to this.

I believe the word you wanted was functional.
post #212 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Ron Paul: Israel Created Hamas!

That man has more integrity and a greater conscience than any other member of congress. He is a true Christian and I applaud him for his courage and integrity.

May God Bless Ron Paul.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #213 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I'm tired and had a rough day at work so I'll only reply to this.

I believe the word you wanted was functional.

Highly informative. Thanks for correcting a typo.
post #214 of 303
Never mind.
post #215 of 303
The WSJ, yep, that bastion of the liberal elite eastern media that's in the tank for Obama (or was that another journal? ), has an article claiming that Israel's efforts in Gaza amount to war crimes.

War crimes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1231...googlenews_wsj

A few quotes:
"Israel had not suffered an "armed attack" immediately prior to its bombardment of the Gaza Strip. "

"An armed attack that is not justified by self-defense is a war of aggression. Under the Nuremberg Principles affirmed by U.N. Resolution 95, aggression is a crime against peace."

"Deliberate attacks on civilians that lack strict military necessity are war crimes."




And how does this liberal biased elite entity feel about the US aggression in Iraq?

Hmmm...

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #216 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

We have enabled a functional democracy in the middle east that actually LIKES us. One that is technologically advanced and directly stimulates the US economy AND technology base.

We also have Qatar and UAE, which per capita have a GREATLY higher standard of living compared to Israel. If Israel/Palestine weren't stuck in this war (and they wouldn't be without US intervention), parts of Palestine would likely be even more successful. Instead we have a place where no one is safe, and where no one is well off, especially Palestinians.

Yes, I know Israel and Palestine don't have the massive oil reserves in a small space like UAE, but they are in a prime location to become the center of international commerce, and if not for the war economy we're paying for, they would be.
post #217 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Highly informative. Thanks for correcting a typo.

If you think Israel has an believes in the democratic process, you deserve to be ignored.
post #218 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Never mind.

Highly informative.
post #219 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Highly informative.

Edit: The Wall Street Journal has long been an Israel Uber Alles cheerleader, especially since Rupert Murdoch took it over. The Wall Street Journal accusing Israel of war crimes in 2009 is like Pravda accusing the Soviet Communist Party of war crimes in 1956.
post #220 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We also have Qatar and UAE, which per capita have a GREATLY higher standard of living compared to Israel.

They have oil. This is like claiming that Alaska is some paragon of virtue as a state because it has a lot of money.

Quote:
If Israel/Palestine weren't stuck in this war (and they wouldn't be without US intervention), parts of Palestine would likely be even more successful. Instead we have a place where no one is safe, and where no one is well off, especially Palestinians.

Yes, I know Israel and Palestine don't have the massive oil reserves in a small space like UAE, but they are in a prime location to become the center of international commerce, and if not for the war economy we're paying for, they would be.

The entire point is that Gaza was poised, in 2006, prior to the election of Hamas, to become this even with Israel dragging its heels on access. With international help, which they were getting a lot of, they could have broken the damn cycle.

Instead, they pissed it all away by electing Hamas.
post #221 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

If you think Israel has an believes in the democratic process, you deserve to be ignored.



Have fun ignoring me. I'm sure it will be as effective as the way you ignore trumpman and SDW.

But you know, it's rather amusing how some "liberals" reject information or discussion that doesn't fit with their worldview as much as the "conservatives" they decry.

Have a nice weekend.
post #222 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The WSJ, yep, that bastion of the liberal elite eastern media that's in the tank for Obama (or was that another journal? ), has an article claiming that Israel's efforts in Gaza amount to war crimes.

War crimes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1231...googlenews_wsj

...

"An armed attack that is not justified by self-defense is a war of aggression. Under the Nuremberg Principles affirmed by U.N. Resolution 95, aggression is a crime against peace."

"Deliberate attacks on civilians that lack strict military necessity are war crimes."

And how does this liberal biased elite entity feel about the US aggression in Iraq?

Hmmm...

It's always interesting that folks treat opinion pieces as supporting material for their arguments. Editorials are NOT articles.

1) it's opinion...whether it's from the WSJ, Fox News, LA Times or Alaska Daily News, it's still just an opinion piece
2) no shit it supports your position since you can find enough liberal and conservative opinion pieces on the net to support any damn position. I'm sure there's an opinion piece out there that claims that Bush is an under appreciated genius and history will vindicate him.
3) it's no more vetted for facts than anything anyone posts on AO

Yes, Israel Can Win in Gaza - Israel is significantly weakening Hamas – with Palestinian help.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123146309313766581.html

The Jews Face a Double Standard - Why doesn't Israel have the same right to self-defense as other nations?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html

Muslims Against Hamas - Israel isn't the only side to blame.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154855613269959.html

So what are these? Somewhat better written posts than what we've seen in this thread but no more substantive. None qualify as "journalism" or are equivalent to a real article from the WSJ or even Fox News. The first and third one are interesting though. The second the same sort of tripe as the original opinion piece on "war crimes".

But hey, by current standards that's 3-1 that the WSJ "supports" Israel over Hamas.

You should email that first author if he's had any luck trying to get Bush and Cheney up for war crimes from that interpretation of international law.
post #223 of 303
You will notice that I wrote that the WSJ has an article claiming...

After reading your past few posts, I have just one comment: welcome to my ignore list. Now 17 members strong.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #224 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

So what are these? Somewhat better written posts than what we've seen in this thread but no more substantive. None qualify as "journalism" or are equivalent to a real article from the WSJ or even Fox News.

We can share what we believe is supporting our opinion with another opinion. We can support them with facts and we can also support them with history...

Quote:
...So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests. [...] ~ George Washington's 1796 farewell address

My final word/opinion/statement (call it what you will) on this subject...

Israel is the most illegal state on the face of this planet. So many of the world's problems stem from this fraudulent nation. The Zionist claim to this land stems from whining because they lost it several thousand years ago. The Palestinian people carry the burden of Israel (backed by WMD's from the U.S.) bearing down upon them, violating their everyday rights.

I'll walk into your house, kick your sorry ass out onto the street, and then sit back and watch what you'll do to get back in. The Palestinians are complete justified in their attacks. Besides what do the Israelis care, they're throwing rocks anyway. Israel retaliates 1,000 fold with their high-powered (American taxpayer financed) weapons.

You may not like it, but it is mine. So tough shit sparky. Too bad, because I agree with some of your opinions in the Show me a conservative thread. On this matter, not at all. So don't try to change my opinion, it's thirty years too late.
post #225 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Forget it. I've gotten tired of arguing my point. And that ends my participation in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

We can share what we believe is supporting our opinion with another opinion. We can support them with facts and we can also support them with history...

Well, some of those options have more merit than others.

Quote:
My final word/opinion/statement (call it what you will) on this subject...

Is this your final final word or your final final final word? I kinda lost track.

Quote:
Israel is the most illegal state on the face of this planet. So many of the world's problems stem from this fraudulent nation. The Zionist claim to this land stems from whining because they lost it several thousand years ago. The Palestinian people carry the burden of Israel (backed by WMD's from the U.S.) bearing down upon them, violating their everyday rights.

I'll walk into your house, kick your sorry ass out onto the street, and then sit back and watch what you'll do to get back in. The Palestinians are complete justified in their attacks. Besides what do the Israelis care, they're throwing rocks anyway. Israel retaliates 1,000 fold with their high-powered (American taxpayer financed) weapons.

In 1948 the military balance was on the other foot. We've never directly supported with troops Israel as we have others. In some of those periods the IDF was fighting with clearly inferior weaponry than their more numerous opponents.

The analogy is that you walk into my house, kick my sorry ass into the street and 5 of my closest neighbors with shotguns try to kick your ass back out but you soundly beat them despite armed only with a pistol.

After fortifying their backyards for a while while a kindly bear sells them assault rifles and are about ready try again you kick their asses again in six days, taking their backyards to make it a little harder to try again. This time you have a shotgun to their assault rifles.

Finally, they give it their best shot, try on New Years Eve while you're all hung over and get all the way to your bedroom before you drive them out again and get to within spitting distance of their bedrooms. After which a bear rumbles by telling your buddy the eagle it's going to shit in your woods if you don't stop. Which would require the eagle to shit in the bear's woods and everyone dies. So you stop.

By now you have a frigging tank on the front lawn because you've been fighting for half a century.

I'm pretty disappointed that my heavily armed neighbors couldn't kick your ass when they had both technological and numerical superiority. Now it's pretty clear you can kick anyone's ass but the bear, the eagle and maybe the dragon that's finally waking up.

I can either

a) figure something productive to do with the piece of sidewalk that is left me.

b) throw rocks at what is now your house and invite you to blow my head off.

While I would have sympathy for myself 40 years ago, today, I need to do something more productive than throwing rocks at what used to be my house.

Quote:
You may not like it, but it is mine. So tough shit sparky. Too bad, because I agree with some of your opinions in the Show me a conservative thread. On this matter, not at all. So don't try to change my opinion, it's thirty years too late.

Internet opinions don't piss me off. I don't know you, you don't know me so why the hell get so uptight after hitting "Submit"? A little heat while writing is fun but after it's written it's just a forum.
post #226 of 303
Oh...btw...while Washington's advice is good, it is meant more strongly for that highlighted sentence:

Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Which is the situation the new nation was in (weak). Today is far different. To have as little political connection with others and avoid "entanglements" is foolhardy in our current situation. We have the most to lose to have no say in how the world evolves.

I sincerely doubt that Washington would advise the same course today that he did in his farewell address in 1796.
post #227 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

You will notice that I wrote that the WSJ has an article claiming...

After reading your past few posts, I have just one comment: welcome to my ignore list. Now 17 members strong.

Thats the point. It's not an article. But whatever. Buh bye.
post #228 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Thats the point. It's not an article. But whatever. Buh bye.

Like you said earlier, misspelled opinion, some are worth more when they come from someone whose business, credentials are what they are opining about.

This business regarding the ignore feature, I don't get it, especially when your list hits 17 like Bergermeister's does.
post #229 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

This business regarding the ignore feature, I don't get it, especially when your list hits 17 like Bergermeister's does.

I guess it's a survival trait. Ignore what you don't like and the social friction magically disappears. This is how you get such odd behavior as salarimen reading hentai manga on the subway next to schoolgirls in Japan.

What's interesting is the anonymous internet and expat gatherings are likely the few places he can actually have an open discussion but he chooses to self-censor anyway.

Amusingly, he'll likely read this and then have the dilemma of not responding when he would want to.
post #230 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I sincerely doubt that Washington would advise the same course today that he did in his farewell address in 1796.

I know he would have certainly freaked out seeing who our next president will be.
post #231 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I know he would have certainly freaked out seeing who our next president will be.

Oddly, I think you think less of the man than I do to make that jest.
post #232 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Oddly, I think you think less of the man than I do to make that jest.

Hey, nobody's perfect and he indeed eventually free many of his own. But there other meanings to "freaking out" too.
post #233 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

They have oil. This is like claiming that Alaska is some paragon of virtue as a state because it has a lot of money.



The entire point is that Gaza was poised, in 2006, prior to the election of Hamas, to become this even with Israel dragging its heels on access. With international help, which they were getting a lot of, they could have broken the damn cycle.

Instead, they pissed it all away by electing Hamas.

Why the hell would Palestinians do anything, ever to build nice homes? Israel will just fucking take it away! And when they do, the US will veto any UN resolutions condemning the act.

Now Tulkas can cry and say that I'm perdicting what will happen that hasn't happened yet... but... it has happened countless times! TRACK RECORD. Israel should be ashamed, immediately return all illegal settlements, and THEN we can talk about Hamas behaving responsibly.
post #234 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

They have oil. This is like claiming that Alaska is some paragon of virtue as a state because it has a lot of money.

Thanks tonton for pointing out something vinea stated that I missed...What if Gaza had oil and gas reserves? It does.

A Secret Behind Israel's Siege of Gaza: Palestinians Have Oil and Natural Gas Resources

Quote:
there is an abundance of oil reserves both on the strip and offshore

http://blogs.state.gov/index.php/ent...stinian_peace/

Quote:
"The Palestinians are, in aggregate, energy rich. For the past six years, the Palestinian Authority has been sitting on a major gas field that contains at least 1.4 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of gas."

http://www.epalestine.com/PalestineEnergy.pdf

Quote:
"Palestine was rewarded with an oil reserve 22 miles off of the coast of the Gaza Strip. The entire country was excited by this natural mineral that would hopefully provide them with the economic freedom and financial stability they desired. Unfortunately, the financial success did not come directly on the heels of their discovery"

http://www.oilandgasinvestingglossar...s_troubles.asp

Well, just another reason I guess, right? What hasn't started conflicts or wars besides religion in the Middle East for the past 80 odd years or so?

Robert Newman's History of Oil

Oil Fields as Military Objectives: A Feasibility Study 1975

So, I know now why investing in oil futures were a reason for maybe e1618978. (I reaching here I know)

What are your motives, desires or reasons for your stance vinea? Democracy?
post #235 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Thanks tonton for pointing out something vinea stated that I missed...What if Gaza had oil and gas reserves? It does.

A Secret Behind Israel's Siege of Gaza: Palestinians Have Oil and Natural Gas Resources

Again, why give up gaza in 2005 to invade in 2008? These reserves have been known since 2000. No jewish settlements or presence in Gaza makes Israel control over the gaza field even more tenuous.

Quote:
Well, just another reason I guess, right? What hasn't started conflicts or wars besides religion in the Middle East for the past 80 odd years or so?

True. Surely the gaza natural gas resources are an aspect...but it's not worth long term peace to Israel. And whether Israel bought that NG or Egypt it doesn't matter in the long run to Palestine. Especially since Israel was buying NG from Egypt anyway.

The big game changer was the election of Hamas in 2006.

Quote:
What are your motives, desires or reasons for your stance vinea? Democracy?

You tread closely to a personal attack here. I find it interesting that what you dislike about conservatives is that many demonize their liberal opponents as un-american and yet you question the motives, desires or reasons of folks with a pro-Israeli stance.

What you just wrote looks a lot like what a pro-lifer might ask. Smug in their morality about how anyone that supports baby-killing could possibly have a pure motive, desire or reason.

But whatever. I take Israel's side based on the fact that there have been many honest negotiations for peace on her part that have been sabotaged by Palestinians. It is my opinion that the PA has never negotiated in good faith because while they will accept the terms in the short term to gain advantage, their underlying goal is still getting their whole country back. This cannot be a platform for long term peace because it presupposed the destruction of Israel.

It seems that you cannot even acknowledge that in 2005 Israel pulled all her settlements out of Gaza. That the best chance for long term peace was in 2006.

Perhaps I hold my stance because of bitterness. Why keep trying to help folks that are determined to undermine every chance to make a bright future for themselves on the forlorn hope that someday they might get their entire country back?

Perhaps it is based on the understanding that Hamas, more than Israel, wants dead Palestinian children because hatred is their true basis of power. Have you seen the Hamas TV show where Mickey Mouse (Farfour) was "martyred" by an "Israeli"?

Perhaps in 1948 getting their country back would have been the fairest thing. In 2008 it is not.

Perhaps my stance is because of fairness. The IDF has many ills and not a few among them have long seated grievances they are willing to take out on innocents. But remember that Israel sent cell phone messages to thousands of Gazans warning them to stay away from Hamas weapon stashes. Warnings that pretty much eliminated any element of military surprise in order to reduce civilian casualties.

Where the Israelis are guilty of crimes they should be punished. Fine. But to say they are out for genocide or ethnic cleansing is to ignore the facts. Yes, some Israelis want to kill all the Palestinians. Yes, there are Israeli political blocks that wish to steal what little the Palestinians have left.

Same as in the US. We have idiots, thieves and murderers here. Some even in positions of power. We don't always do the right thing and sometimes, because we ARE a democracy, our polices are not always cohesive or even all that intelligent.

That's how I know Israel is a democracy. Their policies are all over the damn map. That and a peaceful transition of power between liberals and conservatives over time.
post #236 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Why the hell would Palestinians do anything, ever to build nice homes? Israel will just fucking take it away! And when they do, the US will veto any UN resolutions condemning the act.

Now Tulkas can cry and say that I'm perdicting what will happen that hasn't happened yet... but... it has happened countless times! TRACK RECORD. Israel should be ashamed, immediately return all illegal settlements, and THEN we can talk about Hamas behaving responsibly.

They did in 2005. As a trial to see if that would work. Had the outcome been positive they probably would have continued in the West Bank.

Instead they got Hamas.
post #237 of 303
Vinea, it wasn't meant as an attack. And you have stated your reasons clearly. The reason for my asking wasn't personal, only for a complete assessment of them.

Right now, I have coffee to get, a book to read and some downtime from teh internets.



I'll be back.
post #238 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Oddly, I think you think less of the man than I do to make that jest.


I think Artman means it was a different time and for someone who kept slaves of that particular color would probably have a difficult time picturing one of them as president. It's just the way most people were back then. Sad but true.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #239 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

They did in 2005.

They did? They gave up all the illegal settlements?

Uh, no, they didn't.
post #240 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

They did? They gave up all the illegal settlements?

Uh, no, they didn't.

In gaza, yes.

What? According to some all of Israel is an illegal settlement so what are they to do? Slit their own throats?

Yes, lets set the bar so high that total capitulation is a requirement to open negotiations.
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