Originally Posted by @_@ Artman
Thanks tonton for pointing out something vinea stated that I missed...What if Gaza had oil and gas reserves? It does.
A Secret Behind Israel's Siege of Gaza: Palestinians Have Oil and Natural Gas Resources
Again, why give up gaza in 2005 to invade in 2008? These reserves have been known since 2000. No jewish settlements or presence in Gaza makes Israel control over the gaza field even more tenuous.
Well, just another reason I guess, right? What hasn't started conflicts or wars besides religion in the Middle East for the past 80 odd years or so?
True. Surely the gaza natural gas resources are an aspect...but it's not worth long term peace to Israel. And whether Israel bought that NG or Egypt it doesn't matter in the long run to Palestine. Especially since Israel was buying NG from Egypt anyway.
The big game changer was the election of Hamas in 2006.
What are your motives, desires or reasons for your stance vinea? Democracy?
You tread closely to a personal attack here. I find it interesting that what you dislike about conservatives is that many demonize their liberal opponents as un-american and yet you question the motives, desires or reasons of folks with a pro-Israeli stance.What you just wrote looks a lot like what a pro-lifer might ask. Smug in their morality about how anyone that supports baby-killing could possibly have a pure motive, desire or reason.
But whatever. I take Israel's side based on the fact that there have been many honest negotiations for peace on her part that have been sabotaged by Palestinians. It is my opinion that the PA has never negotiated in good faith because while they will accept the terms in the short term to gain advantage, their underlying goal is still getting their whole country back. This cannot be a platform for long term peace because it presupposed the destruction of Israel.
It seems that you cannot even acknowledge that in 2005 Israel pulled all her settlements out of Gaza. That the best chance for long term peace was in 2006.
Perhaps I hold my stance because of bitterness. Why keep trying to help folks that are determined to undermine every chance to make a bright future for themselves on the forlorn hope that someday they might get their entire country back?
Perhaps it is based on the understanding that Hamas, more than Israel, wants dead Palestinian children because hatred is their true basis of power. Have you seen the Hamas TV show where Mickey Mouse (Farfour) was "martyred" by an "Israeli"?
Perhaps in 1948 getting their country back would have been the fairest thing. In 2008 it is not.
Perhaps my stance is because of fairness. The IDF has many ills and not a few among them have long seated grievances they are willing to take out on innocents. But remember that Israel sent cell phone messages to thousands of Gazans warning them to stay away from Hamas weapon stashes. Warnings that pretty much eliminated any element of military surprise in order to reduce civilian casualties.
Where the Israelis are guilty of crimes they should be punished. Fine. But to say they are out for genocide or ethnic cleansing is to ignore the facts. Yes, some Israelis want to kill all the Palestinians. Yes, there are Israeli political blocks that wish to steal what little the Palestinians have left.
Same as in the US. We have idiots, thieves and murderers here. Some even in positions of power. We don't always do the right thing and sometimes, because we ARE a democracy, our polices are not always cohesive or even all that intelligent.
That's how I know Israel is a democracy. Their policies are all over the damn map. That and a peaceful transition of power between liberals and conservatives over time.