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Call for retaliation - Page 7

post #241 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Vinea, it wasn't meant as an attack. And you have stated your reasons clearly. The reason for my asking wasn't personal, only for a complete assessment of them.

Right now, I have coffee to get, a book to read and some downtime from teh internets.

Downtime is good. I shall join you.

Just understand that, for the most part, I respect the folks on the other side of the discussion. I don't tolerate fools all that well but I don't attribute malice just because of disagreement. Only a couple times here and mostly (perhaps in all cases) I have been wrong.

My preference for Palestine is much like Obama's stance on abortion. Folks may disagree about issues of blame and ultimately the validity of the state of Israel but there are many intermediate points where folks can agree to agree in order to find security and prosperity for the Palestinian people.

I do not believe that Hamas is one of those parties willing to do this. Any more than very extreme right to lifers or pro choice groups.

Unfortunately, I also don't believe that Fatah is capable of implementing anything useful other than holding on to their own power. In gaza, even that failed miserably.

I do believe that Israel does, on occasion, negotiate in good faith. Arguably, they can because they ARE more secure and do have moderates and liberals that are both powerful and effective.
post #242 of 303
Both sides have their problems. The Palestinians have the fracture between the religious Hamas and secular Fatah. The Israelis, because of their flawed proportional voting system, have far too many parties with some small extremist group always holding the balance of power.

This has made neither side capable of cutting a deal that the other side can believe in, because some small violent element on either the Jewish or Arab side will sabotage any agreement. It was extreme right wing settlers who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin, which then put a complete stop to negotiations at the time. It has been radical splinter groups in Gaza that rocket Israel, truce or no truce.

The extremists on both sides drive away or eliminate the moderates.
post #243 of 303
This gentleman (and former Israeli IDF pilot) sums it up very well.

I sincerely wish that Obama, when in office will assess this problem in a new perspective. Unfortunately, Joe Biden and even the democratic side wants no change at all either.

I expect Israel to stop it's attacks or agree to a cease fire on or before January 20th though, if they do not their relationship with the U.S. could very well change just as it is with the rest of the world. And they know this.
post #244 of 303
did he just call obama a slave?

I don't think it serves him well that he isn't recognized as the spokesperson for the Israeli peace movement since he has been doing this for nearly four years (at least)...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #245 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

did he just call obama a slave?

I don't think it serves him well that he isn't recognized as the spokesperson for the Israeli peace movement since he has been doing this for nearly four years (at least)...

Well, anyone in this peace movement are not friends with AIPAC. Which pretty much has made "slaves" of Washington D.C., the media and it's religious zealots.

As far as the term "slave", it's strong and maybe misconstrued, but pretty much on the mark. Obama wouldn't have had a chance if he had snubbed the AIPAC meeting after his nomination. No one does (ie Paul & Kucinich).

The other side can be just as bad with their choice of words..

Israeli lady watching attacks on Gaza: "I think they should just take the city off the ground (...) yeah I'm a little bit fascist"

This bitch doesn't speak for the majority of Israelis, but it is disturbing how readily she can say something like this from her comfortable vantage point while a few miles away there are children dying.

Reminds me of the early part of the American Civil War...

Quote:
The wealthy elite of nearby Washington, including congressmen and their families, expecting an easy Union victory, had come to picnic and watch the battle. When the Union army was driven back in a running disorder, the roads back to Washington were blocked by panicked civilians attempting to flee in their carriages.

~ First Battle of Bull Run
post #246 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

That's how I know Israel is a democracy. Their policies are all over the damn map. That and a peaceful transition of power between liberals and conservatives over time.

Israel is a democracy among zionistic jews, anyone else remains outside the loop:

- The muslims among the israelis can form parties and set up candidates for election, but before they get approval, they have to declare and respect that Israel is a jewish state, and not to do any politics challenging that, not even politics working towards a purely secular model.

- These same israeli muslims live in communities segregated from jews, with separate communities, schools, villages and towns... Of course these communities and their infrastructure receive considerable less funds than jewish ones.

- These same israeli muslims are not allowed to serve in the israeli army. A lot of social help, job-opportunities and other benifits are only granted to israelis that served in the army.

Those muslims can still be viewed as lucky, compared with the millions of palestinians under its occupation, where disposessions, military raids, driving outs, checkpoints, curfews and blockades strangle them for decades, keeping them out of Israel eventhough they are the natives, while granting the right to become Israeli to any jew around the world.

Israel is a democracy, in the same sense that Apartheid-Southafrica was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

They did in 2005. As a trial to see if that would work. Had the outcome been positive they probably would have continued in the West Bank.

Instead they got Hamas.

Pure israeli propaganda and nonesense. What Israel did was to disengage from Gaza because:
a) the occupation there was too costly both in pure money as well as in casualties among israeli soldiers and settlers, and
b) Israel made a deal with the US to allow them to grab and annex more Westbank-land.

Considering this ploy, and the fact that Israel destroyed much of Fatah's infrastructure in the Westbank as well as Fatah's own corruption, it was no wonder that Hamas won the parliamentary elections, the only left credible alternative, the islamistic organization that Israel itself helped to gain roots in Gaza as a counterweight to the PLO.

Nightcrawler
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post #247 of 303
Quote:
"No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire." ~ Israeli spokesman Merk Regev

From the report:

Quote:
"In the rest of June [i.e. after the June 18th ceasefire], just three [rockets were fired]. Throughout July, August, September and October, there were only 15 [rocket] attacks, and Israel agrees that none of these rockets were fired by Hamas."

"On November the 4th [2008], Israel launched an attack that killed 6 Hamas fighters just inside the Gaza strip. [...] The result was a fresh barrage of rockets from Hamas. After November the 4th, there were 68 [rockets fired]."

[...]

"During the entire period of the ceasefire, no Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets."

Further:

Interviewer: "If that's that case, there were no Hamas rockets during the ceasefire. Before November the 4th, there were no Hamas rockets for 4 months."

Mark Regev: "And that's correct."

Finally the truth comes out. Israel broke the ceasefire, therefore Hamas responded with rockets.

A graph showing rocket fire on Southern Israel 2008, Source: Intelligence and Terrorism Center, Israel.
post #248 of 303
I was about to point out what Artman has already done.

But there's more.

One of the thing that's been repeated, over, and over, by the defenders of the Terrorist state of Israel, is that Hamas has used civilians as human shields, and that this is a deplorable thing for them to do.

I ask Tulkas and Vinea to watch the following:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2L0A

Please tell me, Tulkas, how you respond to this? Let me guess... denial.
post #249 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I was about to point out what Artman has already done.

But there's more.

One of the thing that's been repeated, over, and over, by the defenders of the Terrorist state of Israel, is that Hamas has used civilians as human shields, and that this is a deplorable thing for them to do.

I ask Tulkas and Vinea to watch the following:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2L0A

Please tell me, Tulkas, how you respond to this? Let me guess... denial.

Nope, I believe it. The israeli supreme court ruled these illegal in 2005. Did you watch it? "We have had some cases but they have dropped off following the high court petition in 2005 but you still see cases here and there."

This from a watch group.

Meaning what? Some troopers are still doing it here and there but the official IDF stance is that soldier are not supposed to and those caught will be punished.

This is quite different than systematically building your strategy on human shields and using the resulting dead children to affect world opinion.

But hey, moral equivalence is a great way to demonize one side for not being as ruthless as the other.
post #250 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I was about to point out what Artman has already done.

But there's more.

One of the thing that's been repeated, over, and over, by the defenders of the Terrorist state of Israel, is that Hamas has used civilians as human shields, and that this is a deplorable thing for them to do.

I ask Tulkas and Vinea to watch the following:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2L0A

Please tell me, Tulkas, how you respond to this? Let me guess... denial.

Can't watch youtube at work so I will watch it later. From vinea's response, I am guessing it is a video of IDF soldiers using civilians as shields. That should be condemned and punished. I guess you were wrong in your predictions again.

Still waiting to hear something other than an excuse from you and your kind condemning Hamas for doing the same thing but with thousands of civilians. If the IDF soldiers are putting civilians in front of them, that is wrong. Even more inexcusable is stationing your launch sites on in very densely populated areas, using apartment basements as your stockpile depots and using inhabited apartment blocks as military tunnel entrances. Especially knowing full well that these sites will be targeted. We know you will never condemn these actions. The Hamas leadership certainly never will (you know, since it their idea).

Nice to see opting to substitute 'Israel" for "jew" these days, however. Thought you were starting to slip in your pretense.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #251 of 303
Thanks to Google cache...the truth...

Gaza residents: IDF troops posing as Hamas men

Quote:
By Amira HassHaaretz Correspondent ,
:Tags hamas, israel news, israel

.The testimonies of Gaza Strip residents are revealing new details about the Israel Defense Forces' mode of operation there. In the past two days, Beit Lahia residents forced from their homes said soldiers were posing as members of Hamas' armed wing while advancing on the ground

.The daily pauses in bombing allow Gazans to meet with the displaced - most of whom are housed in an UNRWA school - and hear their stories

".Gaza resident S. told Haaretz he heard several people say they saw armed men wearing the uniforms and symbols of the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, who "called out to each other in Arabic, as if they had caught a collaborator, and then, with the element of surprise, went into the houses

.A Gaza radio station warned that troops posing as locals were driving a vehicle normally used by paramedics. Residents said the radio broadcaster listed the vehicle's license plate number and color

.Haaretz has also learned that one of the army's methods for evacuating a home is to fire a missile toward its upper level. That is how B.'s house in Sajaiyeh was destroyed. It was bombed just a few minutes after a missile struck and 40 shell-shocked family members walked out of the house

.The IDF has also forced at least 40,000 people to leave their homes in agricultural and border areas. In Rafah, most of the 20,000 people removed from their homes were lodging with relatives and not in UNRWA facilities

"Haaretz has also learned that one of the army's methods for evacuating a home is to fire a missile toward its upper level."

...and then they drop leaflets...Then they kill the people leaving the building....Then they say that Hamas men fired rockets from that area...

Rinse and repeat...
post #252 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Nice to see opting to substitute 'Israel" for "jew" these days, however. Thought you were starting to slip in your pretense.

Excuse me? Have you ever listened to anything I've ever said? I've never said anything negative about anyone except the government of Israel, its terrorist leadership and those that blindly support those.

I'm going to consider that a personal attack, and an inaccurate one at that.
post #253 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Thanks to Google cache...the truth...

Gaza residents: IDF troops posing as Hamas men



"Haaretz has also learned that one of the army's methods for evacuating a home is to fire a missile toward its upper level."

...and then they drop leaflets...Then they kill the people leaving the building....Then they say that Hamas men fired rockets from that area...

Rinse and repeat...

All the bases are covered. Israel's bad acts are their own and Hamas' bad acts are actually Israelis pretending to be Hamas and doing bad things.

RDF indeed!
post #254 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Can't watch youtube at work so I will watch it later. From vinea's response, I am guessing it is a video of IDF soldiers using civilians as shields. That should be condemned and punished. I guess you were wrong in your predictions again.

Still waiting to hear something other than an excuse from you and your kind condemning Hamas for doing the same thing but with thousands of civilians. If the IDF soldiers are putting civilians in front of them, that is wrong. Even more inexcusable is stationing your launch sites on in very densely populated areas, using apartment basements as your stockpile depots and using inhabited apartment blocks as military tunnel entrances. Especially knowing full well that these sites will be targeted. We know you will never condemn these actions. The Hamas leadership certainly never will (you know, since it their idea).

Actually it makes perfect sense for a guerillia-organization to act that way. The total dominance of the air by Israel means that Hamas doesn't have any protection nor defense against air-raids, espescially because Hamas is pretty meagerly equipped with no radar nor antiaircraft-rockets.

Hamas' fighters are in comparison to Israel's airforce like civilians, since they have nothing to threaten the airforce with. It would be the same as if they had flowers in their hands.

So what does a guerillia-force do, knowing fully well that it has no protection nor defense-weapons against an enemy's airforce, and also no environmental protection to use, like a dense jungle or deep marshes? It uses civilians as cover, by mixing with them, changing clothes, firing from residential areas, calculating that Israel would not simply carpet-bomb against civilians, since Israel is bound by international treaties to not do that.

Israel is forced to pinpoint attacks, to make sure guerillia-fighters are in a specific target and not too many civilians around... and thus reducing the effectiveness a bit.

And since any attacks will most likely hit civilians as well, media-pressure can be built up. Sure, Israel has tried to counteract that by not allowing reporters into Gaza, but still pictures came out by the few local Gaza-reporters that work for BBC or the arabic broadcasters.

The media is the weapon of the weak guerillia-force while the civilians and the international signed treaties are its protection against the dominant airforce.

That means that the real fight will have to be on the ground in the midst of Gaza's cities, and on the ground Hamas has suddenly a potential to fight and inflict casualties among Israel's infantry, using run-and-hide-tactics, booby-traps, suicide-bombings... its rocketpropelled grenades and mines can work against jeeps and tanks as well as helicopters...

That's why Israel is so catious not to go in quickly with its groundforces, knowing that Israel's homefront can't accept high casualties among its soldiers, and instead trying to separate the Gaza-civilians from the Hamas-fighters by issuing leafletters calling for evacuation using pychological threats, so that the airforce can again come into use.

Meanwhile the groundforces react with dispropotionate force, firing tank-shells, to any incoming mortar-attack, in order to prevent casualties among its own froces at all costs, which means of course a high collateral damage.

But that also serves as a tool in Israel's policy against Hamas. The high collateral damage to infrastructure and the many casualties among palestinians are also meant to undermine Hamas' appeal and authority to rule, since it can't protect its people.

All strategy and tactics aside, who is the guilty one in this conflict?

During the truce, Hamas completely refrained from firing rockets and even reduced considerably the rockets fired by other groups inside Gaza, while Israel even strengthened the blockade and attacked and killed Hamas members.

There is a strategy-paper from 1975 that thinks through what the US should do when the OPEC would put an airtight oil-embargoe on the US. Considering that the US has its own oil-ressources, the paper concluded that such an oil-embargoe would not threaten the US' vital interest, namely survival, but would bring economic hardship and maybe even economic chaos, and thus suggested to act militarily by conquering the oil-installations in the middle-east, in order to prevent these economic hardships and turmoils.

The paper also defined categories of foreign attacks on the US' interests: Beside direct military invasion or nuclear holocaust, it defined a blockade as the most serious threat, a threat justifying any military action to break the blockade, while defining an airtight embargoe as a lesser threat, but still suggesting military action in the case in order to prevent economic hardships for its citizens.

Gaza was subject to all these, embargoes, blockades and now invasion. In all these instances Hamas as the elected government had the obligation to do what it could to lift these again.

Its means are limited, leaving only guerillia- and terror-tactics:

- Kidnapping an israeli soldier to use to free palestinian prisoners in Israel.
- Since no israeli soldiers are at hand to attack, and the capability to invade Israel is not there, shooting rockets at Israel was the only course left. Hamas told Israel clearly that it would stop rocket-firing in exchange for a complete lifting of the blockade and proved its sincerity during the truce.

Unfortunately Israel didn't keep its side of the deal and strengthened the blockade during the truce.

According to international law, occupied people have a right to organize an armed resistance, and have a right to foreign aid of their choosing. Hamas chose to accept Syria's and Iran's aid in building up its weapon-caches and training its commanders.

Targetting and killing civilians though is against international law, Hamas justified it in the past, while it was on a suicide-bombing-campaign in Israel, by citing the five times as many killed palestinian civilians by Israel, ie. claiming a legal right for reprisals to achieve a sort of equilibrium so that the opponent gets deterred from killing its people.

The same right is invoked by Hamas with the use of rockets, as a reprisal against Israel's violations against the palestinians, espescially in the Westbank where military raids and extrajudicial executions were carried out, but lately also against Israel's actions against Gaza.

So, despite all condemning and Israel-cheering, Hamas is actually acting within international legality.

Nightcrawler
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post #255 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

...
So, despite all condemning and Israel-cheering, Hamas is actually acting within international legality.

Nightcrawler

WOW
post #256 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

There is a strategy-paper from 1975 that thinks through what the US should do when the OPEC would put an airtight oil-embargoe on the US. Considering that the US has its own oil-ressources, the paper concluded that such an oil-embargoe would not threaten the US' vital interest, namely survival, but would bring economic hardship and maybe even economic chaos, and thus suggested to act militarily by conquering the oil-installations in the middle-east, in order to prevent these economic hardships and turmoils.

The paper also defined categories of foreign attacks on the US' interests: Beside direct military invasion or nuclear holocaust, it defined a blockade as the most serious threat, a threat justifying any military action to break the blockade, while defining an airtight embargoe as a lesser threat, but still suggesting military action in the case in order to prevent economic hardships for its citizens.

Nightcrawler

I gather this is the paper (or one of this nature) you talk about. I linked it previously and countless times to support that the conflicts in the Middle East, our invasions, wars and support of Israel all come to one thing. Oil.

U.S., Congress, Committee on International Relations, Special Subcommittee on Investigations, Oil Fields as Military Objectives: A Feasibility Study, Report Prepared by the Congressional Research Service, 94th Cong., 1st sess., August 21, 1975, (Washington, DC: US Government Printing Office, 1975), Parts I and II, pp. 1-39.

Quote:
The possible use of U.S. military force to occupy foreign oil fields in exigency first surfaced as a serious issue in January 1975. This paper provides perspective, so that the Congress if need be could participate most meaningfully in deliberations to determine the desirability and feasibility of any such action.

Analysis indicates that sustained sanctions by all or most of OPEC's members would disrupt America's fundamental lifestyle and degrade U.S. security, although survival would never be at stake. By way of contrast, the vital interests of our major allies could quickly be compromised.

Any decision to ease agonies at home and (if need be) assist allies would be conditioned by political, economic, social, legal, and moral factors, but if nonmilitary facets were entirely favorable, successful operations would be assured only if this country could satisfy all aspects of a five-part mission:

--Seize required oil installations intact.
--Secure them for weeks, months, or years.
--Restore wrecked assets rapidly.
--Operate all installations without the owner's assistance.
--Guarantee safe overseas passage for supplies and petroleum products.

Quote:
Question. Mr. President, both you and Secretary Kissinger have said that in case of strangulation of the West by the oil producers, you would use military force. * * * The American people would like to know whether you would require a congressional declaration of war or whether you would bypass that constitutional process, as some of your predecessors have done?

Answer. I can assure you on any occasion where there was any commitment of U.S. military personnel to any engagement we would use the complete constitutional process that is required of the President.

President GERALD R. FORD, Press Conference,
January 21, 1975.

And hey, guess who reviewed and supported this report with Gerald Ford?



We not only know it as "feasible" but it has been carried out. And ongoing in many other ways and means.
post #257 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Excuse me? Have you ever listened to anything I've ever said? I've never said anything negative about anyone except the government of Israel, its terrorist leadership and those that blindly support those.

I'm going to consider that a personal attack, and an inaccurate one at that.

No, you jumped into a thread that clearly and overtly accused jews in general of committing genocide and tried to back peddle the OP's comments as not applying to jews in general, when it obviously did. This is the typical "I only meant the zionists/Israeli government" whitewash, which was particularly sad given how overt the OP was in his accusations.

Like I said before, if someone came in here and posted a thread about how muslims are terrorists and I came in and 'explained' that the OP only meant the 'bad' muslims when it was obviously intended with no such qualifications, you would have seen this as an obvious attempt to whitewash the garbage of the OP. Same applies here.

So, please don't pretend to take offense, especially after you make your own 'personal' comments against me (pre-emptively and wrongly-big surprise) that I would deny an Israeli crime. Kettle, please meet pot.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #258 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Actually it makes perfect sense for a guerillia-organization to act that way. The total dominance of the air by Israel means that Hamas doesn't have any protection nor defense against air-raids, espescially because Hamas is pretty meagerly equipped with no radar nor antiaircraft-rockets.

Hamas' fighters are in comparison to Israel's airforce like civilians, since they have nothing to threaten the airforce with. It would be the same as if they had flowers in their hands.

So what does a guerillia-force do, knowing fully well that it has no protection nor defense-weapons against an enemy's airforce, and also no environmental protection to use, like a dense jungle or deep marshes? It uses civilians as cover, by mixing with them, changing clothes, firing from residential areas, calculating that Israel would not simply carpet-bomb against civilians, since Israel is bound by international treaties to not do that.
.....

Gaza was subject to all these, embargoes, blockades and now invasion. In all these instances Hamas as the elected government had the obligation to do what it could to lift these again.

Its means are limited, leaving only guerillia- and terror-tactics:

- Kidnapping an israeli soldier to use to free palestinian prisoners in Israel.
- Since no israeli soldiers are at hand to attack, and the capability to invade Israel is not there, shooting rockets at Israel was the only course left. Hamas told Israel clearly that it would stop rocket-firing in exchange for a complete lifting of the blockade and proved its sincerity during the truce.

Unfortunately Israel didn't keep its side of the deal and strengthened the blockade during the truce.

According to international law, occupied people have a right to organize an armed resistance, and have a right to foreign aid of their choosing. Hamas chose to accept Syria's and Iran's aid in building up its weapon-caches and training its commanders.

Targetting and killing civilians though is against international law, Hamas justified it in the past, while it was on a suicide-bombing-campaign in Israel, by citing the five times as many killed palestinian civilians by Israel, ie. claiming a legal right for reprisals to achieve a sort of equilibrium so that the opponent gets deterred from killing its people.

The same right is invoked by Hamas with the use of rockets, as a reprisal against Israel's violations against the palestinians, espescially in the Westbank where military raids and extrajudicial executions were carried out, but lately also against Israel's actions against Gaza.

So, despite all condemning and Israel-cheering, Hamas is actually acting within international legality.

Nightcrawler

Nightcrawler:
Another well written post. While we obviously see things differently, your thoughtful posts are a nice change from the rantings and ravings of others.

Now, you mention that Hamas, as the elected government, has the right and obligation to do what it could to lift the blockade and embargo. But, then you also state, that because they have limited means they also have the right to use civilians as cover, opt for civilian instead of military clothes and target civilians directly for military action. If they are acting as the representative government in armed resistance against an occupying force, I don't think they have this right through international law. In fact, international law would strictly forbid these actions. Do you have a link that provides backing for international law allowing a governments armed forces to target civilians, use civilians as cover and dress in civilian clothing?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #259 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

No, you jumped into a thread that clearly and overtly accused jews in general of committing genocide and tried to back peddle the OP's comments as not applying to jews in general, when it obviously did. This is the typical "I only meant the zionists/Israeli government" whitewash, which was particularly sad given how overt the OP was in his accusations.

Like I said before, if someone came in here and posted a thread about how muslims are terrorists and I came in and 'explained' that the OP only meant the 'bad' muslims when it was obviously intended with no such qualifications, you would have seen this as an obvious attempt to whitewash the garbage of the OP. Same applies here.

So, please don't pretend to take offense, especially after you make your own 'personal' comments against me (pre-emptively and wrongly-big surprise) that I would deny an Israeli crime. Kettle, please meet pot.

Obviously, the original poster is a troll and won't be back until he wants to. Since then a majority of us have taken it over to discuss this issue. Heated at times, but much more civil than the OP itself.

If you want to discuss this, use private messaging. Or just get over it.
post #260 of 303
Quote:
"I said: 'Get me President Bush on the phone,'" Olmert said in a speech in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon. "They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care: 'I need to talk to him now.' He got off the podium and spoke to me."

Olmert claims Rice embarrassed over UN vote

Pretty awesome that the president of the U.S. can be ordered around by the leader of Israel. \
post #261 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Pretty awesome that the president of the U.S. can be ordered around by the leader of Israel. \

You cannot honestly believe that story...
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post #262 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

You cannot honestly believe that story...

Well, Juan Cole doesn't.

The vote was on Thursday, Jan 9.

If you look at Bush's schedule and we see that on that day, he was indeed in Philadelphia (I live in Philadelphia by the way), giving the usual bullshit speeches on No Child Left Behind. It's not like they were interrupting the state of the union address for this.

Doesn't matter. When you're running a military industrial complex, the customer is always right.
post #263 of 303
All House Reps and Senators who voted to not support Israel's actions:

----------House-----------

Democrats:

* Dennis Kucinich - Ohio
* Maxine Waters - California
* Gwen Moore - Wisconsin
* Nick Rahall - West Virginia

Republicans:

* Ron Paul - Texas

----------Senate----------

Democrats:

* ...

Republicans:

* ...
post #264 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Nightcrawler:
Another well written post. While we obviously see things differently, your thoughtful posts are a nice change from the rantings and ravings of others.

Now, you mention that Hamas, as the elected government, has the right and obligation to do what it could to lift the blockade and embargo. But, then you also state, that because they have limited means they also have the right to use civilians as cover, opt for civilian instead of military clothes and target civilians directly for military action. If they are acting as the representative government in armed resistance against an occupying force, I don't think they have this right through international law. In fact, international law would strictly forbid these actions. Do you have a link that provides backing for international law allowing a governments armed forces to target civilians, use civilians as cover and dress in civilian clothing?

I am not pro-Hamas, quite the contrary, but they have nothing to gain from international law because it is never enforced in their conflict, and Israel itself has regularly broken those same laws whenever and however it saw fit, right from its foundation.

This is not the lawless Wild West, it is the lawless Middle East, and the Sheriff is the hired gun for them there land grabbers.
post #265 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

All House Reps and Senators who voted to not support Israel's actions:

----------House-----------

Democrats:

* Dennis Kucinich - Ohio
* Maxine Waters - California
* Gwen Moore - Wisconsin
* Nick Rahall - West Virginia

Republicans:

* Ron Paul - Texas

----------Senate----------

Democrats:

* ...

Republicans:

* ...

This is a post where you just can't add a word.

It speaks for itself.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #266 of 303
Its not about rockets or Hamas. Its about the Palestinians as a people. It matters not whether they are the tiny minority of Hamas militants, or women, kids, the elderly, the sick or just the huge majority of noncombatant, ordinary people who live there. This became abundantly clear in the latest outrage, the bombing of the UN HQ, destroying thousands of pounds of food and medical supplies destined for the refugees. The humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza just became immeasurably worse.

Of course, the Israeli military, in their customary self-righteous manner, will say it was "a terrible mistake". They always do.... just like every other massacre and terrorist attack they have carried out against their hated neighbors for the last 60 years, were "mistakes". And the complicit US corporate media weasels will echo the Israeli propaganda, as they always do. Israel had it so good during the Bush years with the US fighting two of their wars by proxy, and a 3rd front to be opened up in Iran very soon. Under the Obama Administration, nothing will change. AIPAC, JINSA and company will make sure of that.

I was talking to a neighbor 3 days ago about this thing. He said to me "the only good Palestinian is a dead one". Thats the US/Israeli policy in 8 words.

At least 1466 days to go
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #267 of 303
Again the UN didn't provide security for it's own facilities inside a war zone.

I would think that France or some other EU country could pony up an arty radar and a batallion of troops with live ammo to protect the UNRWA headquarters.

The arty radar would prove or disprove whether any mortars were fired from the vicinity.

The troops would provide sufficient area of denial for hostile combatants ensuring that nobody with RPGs or machine guns are using the area to stage/provoke attacks from.

But I'm sure UNWRA doesn't really want that.

"In 2004, former UNRWA Commissioner-General Peter Hansen told the Canadian Broadcasting Company, "I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime." He added, "We do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another."

There have been several high-profile examples of terrorists being employed by UNRWA. Former top Islamic Jihad rocket maker Awad Al-Qiq, who was killed in an Israeli air strike last May, was the headmaster and science instructor at an UNRWA school in Rafah, Gaza. Said Siyam, Hamas' interior minister and head of the Executive Force, was a teacher for over two decades in UNRWA schools."

Granted the source is Faux News but UNRWA does not appear to be a neutral in this affair. Forbes has an op-ed on it as well if you trust them more:

http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2009/...108rosett.html

Why the heck does UNRWA have more staff than UNHCR anyway? I wonder if that factoid is true.
post #268 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

I am not pro-Hamas, quite the contrary, but they have nothing to gain from international law because it is never enforced in their conflict, and Israel itself has regularly broken those same laws whenever and however it saw fit, right from its foundation.

This is not the lawless Wild West, it is the lawless Middle East, and the Sheriff is the hired gun for them there land grabbers.

If you look back at the first sanctions against Israel made by the UN you would understand why Israel holds no faith in its intentions.

I read somewhere above about Israel breaking the ceasefire . . . i find that strange since I clearly remember hearing about rocket fire well before Israel retaliated.

This is an ugly quagmire and many tings need to change pronto . . . but a major mistake made is that extremists make equitable peace impossible.

There can't be return if those returning just want to blow up their neighbors, there can't be satisfaction if daily life consists of threats and harassment and confinement and squalor.

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #269 of 303
Well, it's getting close to the deadline. I guarantee that a cease-fire will be put in place by then. Whether either of them honor it is another question.



This is all a game. And people, innocent people, are the pawns.

Breaking News: (Israeli) Cabinet to vote Saturday on unilateral Gaza truce
post #270 of 303
Israel is to complete its withdrawal from Gaza... by the Obama inauguration.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...ael/index.html


They used the end of the GW window.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #271 of 303
Utter shame on everyone who's made excuses for Israel.

Its pretty obvious now, if it wasn't from the very outset, that this has little to do with small scale rocket attacks, and everything to do with GW leaving office.

So there you go, if you dont vote the way the 'axis-of-evil' like - the Republicans and the Zionists reply by killing a couple of thousand civilians while they can still get away with it.

I wonder if the administration saw it as one last orgy of destruction - 'for the road', or, lets fuck Palestine over until the next time we manage to steal office - to continue the job.
post #272 of 303
Another sad thing is Israel cannot really be punished for war crimes because it is not a signatory to a variety of treaties.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #273 of 303
Can I get you guys a Kleenex to dry your crocodile tears for the Palestinian people? Maybe you guys, Jimmy Carter and Habitat for Humanity can help rebuild the "defensive tunnels" for Hamas? Maybe you can coax Hamas away from the sundry schools and UN buildings they hide out in to help you rebuild them? Maybe get some of the kids down off the roofs of the Hamas weapons depots to help dig?
post #274 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

Utter shame on everyone who's made excuses for Israel.

Its pretty obvious now, if it wasn't from the very outset, that this has little to do with small scale rocket attacks, and everything to do with GW leaving office.

So there you go, if you dont vote the way the 'axis-of-evil' like - the Republicans and the Zionists reply by killing a couple of thousand civilians while they can still get away with it.

I wonder if the administration saw it as one last orgy of destruction - 'for the road', or, lets fuck Palestine over until the next time we manage to steal office - to continue the job.

It's an ongoing cycle. Aid to Israel is a money laundering scheme.

1. We give Israel money.
2. They buy weapons from US arms manufacturers.
3. US arms manufacturers give graft to congressman.
4. Congressmen vote to give money to Israel.

It is democrats and republicans alike, and for decades. I don't think we'll see "change" during the Obama administration either.
post #275 of 303
There are so many reasons I have for keeping FloorJack on ignore and that last one is one of them. Keep 'em coming FloorJack.
post #276 of 303
Some of the latest statistics out of Gaza tell it the way it is:

More than 1,300 Palestinians killed
Thirteen Israeli deaths
More than 4,000 buildings destroyed in Gaza, more than 20,000 severely damaged
50,800 Gazans homeless and 400,000 without running water.

Since this escalation was started by Israel, it was pbviously nothing to do with rocket attacks by Hamas... the Israelis broke the truce, and Hamas responded. The Israeli action is plainly an attack on the Palestinian people, rooted in pure hatred.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #277 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Since this escalation was started by Israel

Why was hamas digging that tunnel?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #278 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Why was hamas digging that tunnel?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians



To smuggle in pink bunnies of course.
post #279 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

There are so many reasons I have for keeping FloorJack on ignore and that last one is one of them. Keep 'em coming FloorJack.

You sure are chatty for ignoring me. I'm not reading your posts either @_@ Artman. So just keep posting and I'll keep not reading them and commenting on what I'm not reading.
post #280 of 303
Just get a room, you two.
It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.
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It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.
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